Topic: Filter Panes - Exclude (Read 6402 times)

chriswale · « **on:** August 26, 2009, 02:09:19 pm »

Is there a way in which I can use the filter panes to exclude an item?
For example, if I want to exclude genre='Trance' using the filter pane

   Rock
   Pop
   Dance
   Trance
   House
   Hip Hop
   R&B
   Lounge
   Classical
   Filmscore

Currently I select everything in the filter pane and then unselect the item I dont want.
It would be nice if I could hold ALT and then click on each item i dont want. Is something like this possible, or should I suggest it as a feature?

chriswale · « **Reply #1 on:** August 26, 2009, 05:58:57 pm »

While I am talking about the filter panes.
Would it be possible to add the funtionality to resize the width of the filter panes?

Currently all filter panes are almost the exact same width... i need to increase the width of some and decrease the width of others.
Is this possible?

hit_ny · « **Reply #2 on:** August 26, 2009, 06:03:54 pm »

Quote from: chriswale on August 26, 2009, 02:09:19 pm

It would be nice if I could hold ALT and then click on each item i dont want. Is something like this possible, or should I suggest it as a feature?

I'm kinda surprised this isn't already possible.

chriswale · « **Reply #3 on:** August 26, 2009, 06:07:13 pm »

me too!

bunglemebaby · « **Reply #4 on:** August 26, 2009, 06:17:49 pm »

I made a lazy feature request for this once, a handful of months back. I don't think it caught much attention and certainly didn't yield a method for doing it.
For the way I often use MC though, this would be an amazingly handy feature. It would also put MC's panes another hefty step above all those other panes out there.
-JB

hit_ny · « **Reply #5 on:** August 26, 2009, 07:26:47 pm »

Quote from: chriswale on August 26, 2009, 06:07:13 pm

me too!

It is possible maybe not the way you want it, just use CTRL to select / unselect.

Does that not cover everything ?

I never bother to use (all).

What does ALT do otherwise ?

bunglemebaby · « **Reply #6 on:** August 26, 2009, 07:53:08 pm »

Quote

It is possible maybe not the way you want it, just use CTRL to select / unselect.

Does that not cover everything ?

It doesn't cover list type fields. In my list-type Moods field, I have all sorts of cross pollination. For example, my moods include Chill, Sad and Happy. Sometimes I'm in the mood for Chilled and Happy music, but don't want to listen to the Sad tunes. If I simply ctrl+select the Chill and Happy fields I will still get the Sad tunes in my mix.

I do realize that I can simply use the search box/wizard to remove the Sad tunes, in this example, but it's always nice to have the quick and easy method

.

rick.ca · « **Reply #7 on:** August 26, 2009, 09:15:25 pm »

Quote

It doesn't cover list type fields. In my list-type Moods field...

If there were a special "NOT" category, so you could have a Moods pane and a NOT Moods pane. It would be much cooler, however, to be able to "NOT" items in the same list. Maybe that could be done with an ALT-click, which would ~~strike-out~~ and/or highlight the item differently.

This would be handy for selecting movies based on genre. There's otherwise no convenient way to make selections like "comedy and NOT romance" using panes.

hit_ny · « **Reply #8 on:** August 27, 2009, 01:22:57 am »

Quote from: bunglemebaby on August 26, 2009, 07:53:08 pm

It doesn't cover list type fields. In my list-type Moods field

I just tried it on a pane with a list type field (with nested items) and the ctrl+select works.

You can select /deselect.

rick.ca · « **Reply #9 on:** August 27, 2009, 01:48:31 am »

Quote

I just tried it on a pane with a list type field (with embedded items) and the ctrl+select works.

That's not the issue. If bunglemebaby selects only chill and happy he still gets the sad that are also tagged chill or happy. He wants (chill OR happy) AND NOT sad.

If I select comedy I get the dreaded romantic comedy because they're tagged comedy and romance. I want comedy AND NOT romance.

hit_ny · « **Reply #10 on:** August 27, 2009, 02:09:46 am »

Very good, now i see what the issue is (at least in BB's case)

It would seem when using the list field in panes that the operation between the items is that of an AND relationship instead of being OR.

But is this logically consistant ?

When you assign multiple tags to an item, its saying both these tags apply. So when selecting one of them in a pane, the other also shows up.

Would the nested field offer a way out ?

If you tagged as Comedy & Comedy/Romance then selecting the "this" folder will only display Comedy.

Same with Chill as Chill/Happy Chill/Sad

However this might require a taxnomic change

rick.ca · « **Reply #11 on:** August 27, 2009, 02:59:31 am »

Quote

It would seem when using the list field in panes that the operation between the items is that of an AND relationship instead of being OR.

You have that backwards, but it's not relevant anyway. How the panes work is clear. The practise of classifying something with multiple attributes is simple and commonplace. For movie genres, it's standard. There's no need to invent an alternate classification system to suit how the panes work. If necessary, more complex queries can be constructed using the search facility. But panes offer a powerful and convenient way to filter data. All that's being suggested here is the ability to exclude as well as include items in a pane selection would make it that much more powerful—while still being simple and easy to use.

hit_ny · « **Reply #12 on:** August 27, 2009, 03:26:06 am »

Quote

All that's being suggested here is the ability to exclude as well as include items in a pane selection would make it that much more powerful—while still being simple and easy to use.

So going by your earlier examples.

If one clicked on comedy, MC gives both romantic & comedy.

What you would like is to further ALT-click on romantic and have MC cull those items from the list ?

If there was a third item, then conceivably an alt click on that would remove it as well. Basically a way to subtract from the set offered via a (special) click.

gappie · « **Reply #13 on:** August 27, 2009, 03:40:11 am »

i like the idea.

would make using panes for searching lists amazing.

gab

hit_ny · « **Reply #14 on:** August 27, 2009, 03:46:17 am »

Perhaps but take the idea further....

Say you have tags of

Comedy
Comedy, Romantic
Comedy, something else
Comedy, another something

Which is easier ?

The positive way is to go directly to Comedy, you see a helpful twisty indicating there are subitems, drill down and go straight to what you want. not to mention the close proxmity of all subtypes, in one place.

What isn't clear with the subtractive way is you dont know how many different types of comedies there are to begin with, assuming some one else was using the system.

So you click on comedy, then get a huge list and wonder what exacly you are seeing. There is no indicator that there maybe different subtypes of comedy in that list. Its just all comedy. How far away is Romantic from Comedy, depends how many other genres lie in between

Thats why i think the positive approach is clear and therefore preferable.

I have no objection to a subtractive way of doing things just that i can't immediately see the utility of it in the example given above. It works for maybe two or 3 types of comedies but if you had 10 types then the only utility i see is taking away one or two from many, So going to the first post, removing Trance from the list.

The main use being in conjuntion with (All) and subtracting say one or two items from it.

Lasse_Lus · « **Reply #15 on:** August 27, 2009, 04:31:45 am »

Quote from: chriswale on August 26, 2009, 05:58:57 pm

While I am talking about the filter panes.
Would it be possible to add the funtionality to resize the width of the filter panes?

Currently all filter panes are almost the exact same width... i need to increase the width of some and decrease the width of others.
Is this possible?

i would pay multiple $ for that..

re: your first one (would really like that one too) but for now i use searchlists to exclude stuff.
(a tip here when using semicolon lists is to create a new calculated field ie expression:[keywords] so it becomes "flat", then you can use "does not contain")

rick.ca · « **Reply #16 on:** August 27, 2009, 06:06:39 am »

Quote from: hit_ny on August 27, 2009, 03:46:17 am

I have no objection to a subtractive way of doing things just that i can't immediately see the utility of it in the example given above.

You're confusing the matter with your own completely hypothetical example which is distinctly different than the other quite real and common examples mentioned. Movie genres are not a hierarchical classification system. A movie can have any number of different genres, and those attributes have nothing to do with each other. In MC terms, it's a list category, not a nested list. As such, selecting one genre includes all movies with that genre, regardless of what other genres they're included in. Similarly, the proposal is to allow the exclusion of a genre—that would exclude all movies with that genre, regardless of what other genres they're included in.

Back to my example. There is no classification of comedy movies implicit in the other genres assigned to it. The purpose of my query for comedy AND NOT romance is not to get certain "types" of comedies by excluding one type. The purpose of the query is perfectly literal, and that is the only way it should be understood. I would make that query because that's exactly what I want to see—a list of movies that are in the comedy genre, but excluding those also in the romance genre. The resulting list is going to include many movies whose primary genre (if there is such a thing) is not even comedy (e.g., drama-comedy, adventure-comedy, thriller-crime-comedy).

bunglemebaby · « **Reply #17 on:** August 27, 2009, 09:05:53 am »

Quote

The positive way is to go directly to Comedy, you see a helpful twisty indicating there are subitems, drill down and go straight to what you want. not to mention the close proxmity of all subtypes, in one place.

Quote

Movie genres are not a hierarchical classification system. A movie can have any number of different genres, and those attributes have nothing to do with each other.

hit_ny, this is really the key here, in relation to what you're saying.

To move away from the other examples (and possibly beat a dead horse), I've got a list type Situations field with amongst other tags Party and Gym. Many of my songs are good for listening to both with drink in hand or while on the stationary bike. But let's say I'm having a shin dig at the end of the week and the thought of listening to Daft Punk is making me feel sweaty. So, obviously here Gym and Party have little/no direct relation (especially not hierarchical), but are still in the same Situations field. I want to make a playlist of Party songs, without any of my Gym music, but I also don't want to exclude my Driving tunes, for example.

Also, going beyond the list-type field this would also be useful for large fields. I have something on the order of 50-70 different Styles that I use. If all I want to do is avoid listening to Black Metal tunes, currently, I need to select all Styles and then ctrl+unselect the Black Metal style.

One of my main view schemes is a Music view with about 10 panes across the top. I use it to create playlists on the fly for whatever suits my fancy at the time. Being able to simplify and speed up this process would be awesome, for me. We have the means to these ends currently, but quick and convenient are key elements of power when it comes to media management.

-JB

pbair · « **Reply #18 on:** August 27, 2009, 10:13:34 am »

I may be totally confused...but it sounds like the 'Invert Selection' feature. Select all the items you want to exclude and then hit a ctrl-shift-A....now everything is selected except the items you selected to exclude.

hit_ny · « **Reply #19 on:** August 27, 2009, 10:14:13 am »

Quote from: bunglemebaby on August 27, 2009, 09:05:53 am

If all I want to do s avoid listening to Black Metal tunes, currently, I need to select all Styles and then ctrl+unselect the Black Metal style.

Click any item in the pane, ctrl+a, then ctrl+unselect black metal.

If what you want gets implemented its (special) click black metal as default behaviour when entering a viewscheme is for everything to be displayed anyway.

Much easier

bunglemebaby · « **Reply #20 on:** August 27, 2009, 10:57:36 am »

Quote

Click any item in the pane, ctrl+a, then ctrl+unselect black metal.

If what you want gets implemented its (special) click black metal as default behaviour when entering a viewscheme is for everything to be displayed anyway.

Much easier Cheesy

Alright, admittedly this example indicates extreme laziness on my part...

(but those two clicks every time will add up to real importance someday!!

).

I guess the only reason that I really thinks makes this "exclude" idea useful is for the list-type fields. I just wanted to make it seem even more important...

-JB

rick.ca · « **Reply #21 on:** August 27, 2009, 01:19:32 pm »

To say a proposed feature is of no use in a situation to which it doesn't apply is spurious. The proposed feature is clearly useful when working with list-type categories. But it could also be implemented in a way that it would be of some benefit for selecting items from single-value categories as well. An ALT-Click could exclude an item without otherwise changing an "All" selection, so it would be a one-click method of selecting "all but one." It could also be "sticky," so the excluded item would stay excluded as other selections are made and adjusted.

Quote

One of my main view schemes is a Music view with about 10 panes across the top. I use it to create playlists on the fly for whatever suits my fancy at the time. Being able to simplify and speed up this process would be awesome, for me. We have the means to these ends currently, but quick and convenient are key elements of power when it comes to media management.

Me too. I don't even bother with playlists—preferring to quickly construct whatever I want, when I want it. Panes are also great for selecting photos on the fly. I use people, places and keywords for that—all list categories—so the proposed feature would be very useful in that view as well. And playlists make little sense for movies, so this is the only way to go. So YES, anything that makes panes just a little bit quicker and more convenient makes a huge difference to me.

chriswale · « **Reply #22 on:** August 27, 2009, 02:43:55 pm »

Quote

Me too. I don't even bother with playlists—preferring to quickly construct whatever I want, when I want it.

Exactly what I do.
Currently my main view has the following filter panes:
[mood] [genre intensity] [pre-rating] [rating] [date] [main genre] [sub genre] [sub genre] [genre style] [bpm] [vocals]

It helps to have a wider screen!
But if I could reduce the width of some of these then it would help a lot!! For example [rating] [bpm] [year]

chriswale · « **Reply #23 on:** August 27, 2009, 02:48:56 pm »

i would also pay $ for these features!
in fact I'll donate $200!

bunglemebaby · « **Reply #24 on:** August 27, 2009, 02:51:39 pm »

Quote

But if I could reduce the width of some of these then it would help a lot!!

Maybe I'm crazy or making something up (while at work), but I'm pretty sure that MC auto-sizes my panes for me. It does a good job for the view schemes whose pane data actually fit in the given amount of screen width. Maybe this setting is lumped in with the auto-sizing of columns check box (under options)??

chriswale · « **Reply #25 on:** August 27, 2009, 02:55:04 pm »

Auto-sizing... you are talking about the table columns.
We are talking about the Filter Panes (above the table). You got me excited for a second!

Regardless... MC has the best filtering functionality in any media software. Nothing comes close. Nothing.

Something else I would like to mention... perhaps the ALT+click to exclude functionality could be used in the main table as well. Not just the filter panes.

hit_ny · « **Reply #26 on:** August 27, 2009, 03:15:20 pm »

Quote from: bunglemebaby on August 27, 2009, 10:57:36 am

Alright, admittedly this example indicates extreme laziness on my part... (but those two clicks every time will add up to real importance someday!! ).

Its not lazy if used consecutively in several other panes out of 10.

Ctrl-unselect would lose out big time here in comparison to ALT+subtract.

You single click you way across the panes in a positve fashion because thats the only way to do it atm. It adds an extra dimension to also be able to subtract along the way

Quote from: rick.ca on August 27, 2009, 01:19:32 pm

An ALT-Click could exclude an item without otherwise changing an "All" selection, so it would be a one-click method of selecting "all but one." It could also be "sticky," so the excluded item would stay excluded as other selections are made and adjusted.

Agreed

bunglemebaby · « **Reply #27 on:** August 27, 2009, 03:16:48 pm »

Quote

Auto-sizing... you are talking about the table columns.
We are talking about the Filter Panes (above the table). You got me excited for a second!

No, I am talking about the panes. Mine auto-size.
I was just wondering if MC uses the same option to auto-size both, since I did check a box to auto-size the columns.

Quote

Something else I would like to mention... perhaps the ALT+click to exclude functionality could be used in the main table as well. Not just the filter panes.

I'm not sure what you mean here.

rick.ca · « **Reply #28 on:** August 27, 2009, 04:28:07 pm »

Quote

No, I am talking about the panes. Mine auto-size. I was just wondering if MC uses the same option to auto-size both, since I did check a box to auto-size the columns.

I think this still applies...

Quote from: Matt on May 25, 2008, 12:50:12 pm

Panes are auto-sized to fit the content. This is not configurable. Once the view gets wide enough for _all_ panes to be the same width without cropping text, it'll do this. Before that point, it resizes based on needed width percentages.

I don't know how "needed width" is determined. In some cases, this seems to work okay. In others, categories like year and rating seem to get the same width as other categories that could do much better with some extra width.

I would appreciate the option of turning off the auto-sizing and being able to resize the panes manually to suit the particular view.

chriswale · « **Reply #29 on:** August 27, 2009, 06:43:12 pm »

Quote

In others, categories like year and rating seem to get the same width as other categories

That I think could be due to "All Ratings (x)" and "unassigned" being in the list.

Quote

I would appreciate the option of turning off the auto-sizing and being able to resize the panes manually to suit the particular view.

Me too!
So how do we find out if JRiver are interested in implimenting this feature?

chriswale · « **Reply #30 on:** August 27, 2009, 07:10:23 pm »

And while we are talking about the filter panes.
I think it would be excellent to be able to apply a slight background colour to the filter panes.

I'll make
[Mood] [intensity] [rating] green
[Date] [Genre] [Sub-genre] yellow

rick.ca · « **Reply #31 on:** August 27, 2009, 11:43:42 pm »

Quote from: chriswale on August 27, 2009, 06:43:12 pm

So how do we find out if JRiver are interested in implimenting this feature?

It's such a great little feature—and easy to implement—it was probably in the pipe. But then...

Quote from: chriswale on August 27, 2009, 07:10:23 pm

And while we are talking about the filter panes.

...you have to go and ask for something more!

INTERACT FORUM

Author Topic: Filter Panes - Exclude (Read 6402 times)