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[JimH]

It isn't an MC issue.  It's an Apple problem.  

Please read some of the other similar threads on this board. 

Apple encrypts their database on newer devices.  If we broke their protection, it would work until they made a change.  We're not going to waste our time.  Tell Apple you want third party support.

Consider an Android device next time you buy.

[lalittle]

It isn't an MC issue.  It's an Apple problem.  

Please read some of the other similar threads on this board. 

Apple encrypts their database on newer devices.  If we broke their protection, it would work until they made a change.  We're not going to waste our time.  Tell Apple you want third party support.

Consider an Android device next time you buy.

Jim,

I get the distinct feeling that you're frustrated by people continuing to talk about this subject, but the reason this question keeps coming up is because the responses no longer address the actual question.  People have long since stopped talking about "breaking" the copy protection (the original MC/apple sync method), yet you keep responding as if this is what people are suggesting.  People have offered a new solution (using apple's api for syncing) that potentially solves all of the issues you just stated, so we're looking for responses to THIS idea.  People are confused since nobody can figure out why you would not want to have MC sync to apple devices in a way that is fully supported by apple.

In other words, we're no longer just asking "why won't MC support ipods?"  We're asking about a specific idea that, as far as we can tell, could solve all of the issues you listed above.

You keep telling us to ask apple about this.  Well... apple has offered a solution (using their api), so why not use it?  If there is some specific reason you don't want to use the "apple api" suggestion, could you just tell us so that we're not in the dark on this issue?

Thanks,

Larry

[JimH]

1.  Apple is a competitor.

2.  Apple doesn't play fair.

3.  Android is wide open.

Why should we spend time on supporting Apple's products when they've proven they can (and will) change the rules anytime they want to?

I'm sorry that this is bad for you.

[lalittle]

Thanks for the response Jim -- I do appreciate direct feedback on this subject even if I don't agree with the decisions.

Why should we spend time on supporting Apple's products when they've proven they can (and will) change the rules anytime they want to?

Since you asked:

Because it could potentially help your business.  The vast majority of portable music players in use today are apple products.  To not support apple hardware just because apple also makes itunes is to cut off a gigantic potential market.  Note that companies "support" their competitors in this way all the time.  Sony, for example, started building VHS players after they lost the Betamax war even though JVC (the inventor of the VHS format) got royalties for this.  Sony didn't say "we won't support JVC because they're a competitor."  Instead, they recognized that even though it would help JVC to make and sell VHS players, it would also make Sony a lot of money, and more profit is more profit.

To be fair, JR is actually NOT competing with apple's handheld division because JR doesn't make handhelds (frankly, I wish JR would, but that's another subject.)  JR is only competing with itunes.  Supporting apple handhelds would potentially steal some of the itunes market away from apple handheld users.  To NOT support apple handhelds, however, is to guarantee the loss of that market.  Even if only a tiny percentage of apple handheld users switched to using MC instead of itunes, this could still be a significant number of users given that SO many people use apple handhelds, and many/most of those people will see no point in using a media management app that doesn't support their handheld.

Regarding apple's practice of "changing the rules," it should be noted that as far as I've been able to tell, using their api in the manner suggested above has, so far, never been "taken away" from users.  I agree that apple has been incredibly obnoxious in the way they prevented "direct" syncing of their handhelds, and I'm not defending apple in this regard, but it should be noted that there is really no indication that apple has any plans to lock off their api as they did direct syncing.

Larry

[JimH]

Because it could potentially help your business.  

I don't think so.

Take a look at the graph that jmone posted here:
http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=58161.msg408042#msg408042

[RandyP]

Why should we spend time on supporting Apple's products when they've proven they can (and will) change the rules anytime they want to?

Simple: it's what your customers use.

Thinking of Apple as a competitor is counterproductive. iTunes is not a highly-featured system like yours, it's software support for iPods et al. They make hardware for profit. You don't want to support the world's most popular hardware because "Apple doesn't play fair". It's very sad to read this thread; you are telling iPod users there is no hope, and you are the decision-maker.

Have fun with Android and its 10% market share.

[JimH]

Have fun with Android and its 10% market share.

Take a look at the graph in my post above.

[prod]

Unfortunately you are ignoring the devices that Apple bring out other than the iPhone ... i.e. Touch, Nano, iPad. The cited Gartner report also states;

Apple's dramatic expansion of iOS with the iPad and the continuing success of the iPod Touch are important sales achievements in their own right. But more importantly they contribute to the strength of Apple's ecosystem and the iPhone in a way that smartphone-only manufacturers cannot compete with,” Ms. Milanesi said. “To a developer, the iPod Touch and iPhone (and to a lesser extent the iPad) are effectively the same device and a single market opportunity. While Android is increasingly available on media tablets and media players like the Galaxy Player, it lags far behind iOS's multi-device presence. Apple claims it is activating around 275,000 iOS devices per day on average — that's a compelling market for any developer. And developers' applications in turn attract users.

I personally think the iTunes API is too constrained to implement in a globally user-friendly way. It's just fiddly. I've tried my best with the MCiS app, but it's no equal to a seamless sync - it requires the user to make compromises (for a start, install iTunes), and have at least some clue as to what they're doing (as well as a fair bit of motivation).

I've been thinking about developing a solution to sync to a different computer, meaning you wouldn't need iTunes on your main machine, just some rubbish netbook that you only use to sync your Apple device. I haven't had any time to do anything with the idea though, perhaps that's food for thought for someone else? Not even sure enough people would be interested.

[glynor]

3.  Android is wide open.

This isn't true, but it annoys me that it is so often repeated.  The Android OS is open for the carriers and the handset makers.  The consumer implementations of Android have absolutely not been, and Google exercises considerable power by controlling access to the Google branded apps, including the Gmail client and the Marketplace.

But how open is that Samsung Fascinate with it's Bing-only search and locked-down UI?
How open is that Droid X where you brick the phone if you try to root it?
How open is it that NO android handset has an easy restore process to put it back to factory defaults if you mess it up?
How open is it that I can't download a clean image for my phone directly from Google, but I have to wait for my carrier and handset maker to get together an (ruin) the OS and be late on top of it?

The Open Handset Alliance has made no progress in opening up the carrier domination of the cellphone handset market.  Google has their own secret unpublished rules (and fees) for what they'll allow on "their" platform, if you want access to the Marketplace and Gmail app, without which your product will be a failure.  I'm not saying Android is terrible by any means.  I really, really, really hope that Google addresses their serious and growing fragmentation issues and really decides to treat their OS as a platform, rather than an advertising vehicle.  I'll be in line to buy one the day that happens.  But until they distribute the OS releases themselves, and I can be sure that I can get new builds immediately without skinning when they come out (so long as my device meets the minimum hardware requirements), then I'm not going to get on board.

But the "it is open" because the core is Linux is just believing Google hype and marketing.  If you really want to support a platform that is "open" then the best bet out there would have to be MeeGo, but that's probably going to be a failure thanks to Nokia bungling and Intel not caring.

[JimH]

applephile

[glynor]

One last little thing... I know how you feel, Jim, because Android is certainly open to developers, which is wonderful from your perspective.  However, you asked "why should we"?

Take a look at the graph in my post above.

Those kind of single-month numbers are fine, for what they are, and Android has certainly been doing very well.  However, you have to remember what those numbers are looking at.  That isn't an iOS/iPod vs. Android total market share number.  That is one month sales figures, estimated by a market research firm.  The same market research firms that advise wallstreet expectations that Apple routinely outperforms.  That isn't the total number of smartphones that existed in September.  It is only an estimate of the relative positions of how many were sold in that month.  And it is comparing the sales of two models of phones on one carrier vs hundreds of different models of phones on all of the major carriers.  It is still a fair comparison, for what it is, but it isn't the whole story.

MC is a media player, at least at it's core, so you're not talking about syncing only to smartphones.  In fact, for all the hype, smartphones are still a very small slice of the total handheld music player market.  It is certainly growing, and along with tablets it is likely the future, but total installed base means something (just ask Microsoft).  If you compare the total market share of iPods and iOS devices, which is REALLY the market MC is operating in, how does it look then?

There is no serious competitor to the iPod.
There is no serious competitor to the iPod Touch.
The only serious competitor to the iPad just came out, and they're selling them mostly under contract (which makes it more phone than computer).

It looks like you need a way to support the Apple devices.

PS. We'll see how Samsung does with that.  I think they'll do well, especially compared to the lowball 1 million devices shipped by the end of the year target they set for themselves.  But how many iPads do you think Apple will sell in that time (and they have almost a full year head start)?

[glynor]

applephile

 

Resorting to name calling now are we, Jim?

For the record, the only Apple product I own that I bought with my own money is my phone.  That's the only Apple product I've EVER owned that I bought with my own money.  I refused to get an iPod because of the lockdown (we had a Sansa for a long time), and my mac laptop is work-purchased and I need it because Final Cut is a very good and cheap video editing suite and I work in a creative services department.

I'm a PC enthusiast.  All of my computers at home run Windows or Linux.  My Macbook boots to Windows 7 by default.

It just disturbs me how Google has suddenly become the golden child in some spaces.  They're an advertising company.  The consumer is their product, not their customer.   It is fine as long as you remember their motivation.  I do think they legitimately want to bring "good" to the world, but they have a lot of internal conflict too because of the way they make money, and the deals they need to make with other companies.

[JimH]

parandroid

[glynor]

parandroid

Get off my LAWN!

[JimH]

 
ha ha

[glynor]

For the record, I strongly recommend against doing a Google Images search for "simpsons old man shakes fist" with Safe Search turned off.  What has been seen cannot be unseen.

[jmone]

WinMo 6.5 is wide open!  Can I have MC stuff for that then?  Ohhhhh I forgot, no one buys it anymore    and it is sad that this approach is dead.

It seems that the majority of consumers don't want "wide open" and all the complexity it brings.  With Apple, RIM, Nokia and now MS (with WinMo7) in the "lock it down hard, make it simple for users".  Personnaly I hate this approach but it seems (even in my extended familly) the adoption and appeal of the Apple iPhone model is strong and the user attitude is one of "if it does not work easily with their iPhone, they will find a replacment that will...they will not replace the iPhone".

For example I sold by Brother-in-Law on MC, installed it, imported his stuff, set it up for use a DLNA streamer, and as a MediaMgr/Sync.  Two months later I find they are using MC for the ability to play their video media on the PS3 connected to their TV but he installed iTunes as it is "better" (well it is "simpler").  They may as well have gotten the "free" TVersity or PS3MediaPlayer.

Apples OS is not going to die with the rise of Andriod and will continue to be a large potential market segment.  I too would like better MC-->iPhone integration as they are a part of the devices I have to deal with at home but I think the chance of changing Jim's mind is 1% at best!

Thanks
Nathan

PS - I've been playing with Andriod as a dual boot on my HTC HD2 WinMo 6.5 phone as I figure I need to find an upgrade path to an OS that will let me (in order of priority):
Work Features:
1) Good Phone with Handsfree
2) Sync with e-mail (imap and pop)
3) Open, Read (and maybe edit) Offices Apps and PDF etc
4) Run TomTom for GPS
5) Use as a Tethered Modem
6) Use as a USB Key
Play Features:
1) Format Support
2) Support for MC's Sync, RC, Webplay etc

WinMo 6.5 does all of this, and from what I can see the ONLY OS that has a chance of doing the above will be Andriod (but happy to be told otherwise).

[JimH]

Just to be clear, by "wide open", I didn't mean open source.

I meant that it's a competitive field where the market is growing and it's easy for us to support it.  Imagine that we spent a few months building a media player for the iPad and then Apple decided not to allow it.  That's a "closed" market.

[Matt]

Imagine that we spent a few months building a media player for the iPad and then Apple decided not to allow it.  That's a "closed" market.

Or imagine we spent a few years writing good iPod support, and then Apple decided not to allow it.

Sadly, that one is a true story.

[glynor]

That's a "closed" market.

iOS is not a completely open platform for developers.  Android is much better in this regard.  I agree, and I do support that development model.  I'd argue that the fragmentation of the Android platform (caused by carriers and OEMs) is relatively more detrimental to developers than the rules you have to follow on the App Store, but it depends what you want to do as a developer.  Using your example of a media player application is a perfect example.  Apple might very well block that type of app (they might not though, they let VLC through and many others).  The problem is that you can't know that until after the work is done and the money is spent.  It is a huge problem.  However, the fragmentation clearly hurts Android badly with games and other hardware-intensive applications like jmone mentioned (TomTom).

PS - I've been playing with Andriod as a dual boot on my HTC HD2 WinMo 6.5 phone as I figure I need to find an upgrade path to an OS that will let me (in order of priority):
Work Features:
1) Good Phone with Handsfree
2) Sync with e-mail (imap and pop)
3) Open, Read (and maybe edit) Offices Apps and PDF etc
4) Run TomTom for GPS
5) Use as a Tethered Modem
6) Use as a USB Key
Play Features:
1) Format Support
2) Support for MC's Sync, RC, Webplay etc

WinMo 6.5 does all of this, and from what I can see the ONLY OS that has a chance of doing the above will be Andriod (but happy to be told otherwise).

Android actually does not have a high-quality non-subscription GPS application available.  It was one of the major things holding me back from switching when I chose to upgrade to the iPhone 4.  I use my iPhone as my only GPS device (using the wonderful Navigon AG GPS app).  Paying $10 a month is not an option, nor is relying upon consistent cell coverage.  I need the GPS the most when I have no signal (and in Maine, there are plenty of places where there is no signal, no matter what network you're on).

But, just to be fair... With the obvious exception of MC-sync, all the things you listed except for perhaps "format support" (you didn't specify) the iPhone can do.  With AirVideo and VLC, it can even really do "format support" too.

[glynor]

Or imagine we spent a few years writing good iPod support, and then Apple decided not to allow it.

Sadly, that one is a true story.

And that's what it is really about.  And it's understandable.  To be fair though, the reason your work got ruined is because you circumvented the iTunes API and used unpublished APIs.  I'm not saying it doesn't suck, but it isn't like what you did was all sanctioned and perfectly fine and then they pulled the rug out from under you.  It feels that way, but companies change and lock-down private APIs all the time.  That's why they're private.

I understand Jim's feelings personally.
I understand Jim's feeling philosophically.

I think it is a bad tactical business decision based on emotion and philosophy.  That's all.

[glynor]

Getting away from the more "meta" topics here...

Assuming we can't expect a more seamless system of using iTunes as a sync engine, there ARE a few relatively small things that you could add that wouldn't be Apple-specific, but which would make the sync experience much less painful for end users.  If these things were done, I'd almost immediately post a "How To Sync Your iPhone/iPad/iPod using iTunes" thread which would be very popular here, I expect.

1. We need a way to set an arbitrary size limit for "generic" handheld syncs, so that syncing to a hard drive location can work like you need it to on a limited-storage phone or iPod.  If possible, this size calculation should take into account file conversions (granted, that might be really tough).

2. We need a way to automatically execute a command line after a sync completes, so that I can set it to automatically run a iTLU script (or similar process).

3. We need access to the iPod-specific video conversion mechanisms for generic handhelds.  I can hack the ffmpeg.xml, but it is clumsy and awkward.  You HAVE good iPod and AppleTV conversion profiles, but they're hidden and unavailable for generic syncs.

Those three things and I'd almost completely shut up about it.  It would absolutely be better to have it all integrated, handle bi-directional syncing of playstats, and not need to waste the additional storage and everything else, but since that isn't going to happen...

Those three things would really pretty much solve my problems with the system.  If not for me, do it for my wife.  She's pretty cute.  And besides, forget pie.

I'll send beer.

[glynor]

Those three things and I'd almost completely shut up about it.

I say "almost" because I never actually shut up about anything.  You can ask my cute wife.  

[lalittle]

I understand Jim's feelings personally.
I understand Jim's feeling philosophically.

I think it is a bad tactical business decision based on emotion and philosophy.  That's all.

This is a good distillation of my feelings as well.

I'd be angry at apple as well if I was a developer, but cutting into ANY part of the apple handheld market would help boost MC sales, and conversely, cutting OFF the market of apple handheld users results in lost potential sales.  Handheld players are a driving force in this arena, so it makes sense to do what's reasonably possible to support the most popular handhelds, and apple is STILL the leader when you consider their entire lineup.  Keep in mind that there are MC users (like myself) that started using MC BECAUSE of their alternative ipod support.

While I also agree that it would not be "reasonable" to try and support apple products if apple kept blocking support for them, we need to remember that to date, apple has only locked out people that were using unsupported methods to sync their handhelds.  Using the itunes APIs is -- and has been for a time now -- officially supported by apple, so it is not entirely accurate to say that they have "done this in the past" when they have never actually locked out the use of their APIs.

For the sake of potentially pulling over some of the apple market, wouldn't it be worth at least looking into how difficult it would be to implement some of the ideas suggested?

Larry

[jmone]

Or imagine we spent a few years writing good iPod support, and then Apple decided not to allow it.

To me the Logic is not quite right.... as Jim H keeps pointing out MC does still sync with the classical iPods but not those devices using their newer OS.  It is the same as with the WinMo devs - nothing that ran for V5 or V6 will work with V7 - it all has to be redone.  You don't make us run MC in an XP Emulation box in Windows7 because just because those nasties as MS changed how Windows works, you kept your dev efforts going. 

Anyway - I'm not sure why I'm even arguing the case as it is not going to change anyones mind    just a sucker for a good discussion I think 

[glynor]

Anyway - I'm not sure why I'm even arguing the case as it is not going to change anyones mind    just a sucker for a good discussion I think 

Right.  Which is why I said this.

[JimH]

It's not emotional.  It's a pure business decision.  We'll invest our time where we're welcome.

[glynor]

It's not emotional.  It's a pure business decision.  We'll invest our time where we're welcome.

Fair enough.  I really do understand.  With limited resources you don't want to take the risk that Apple will change the API (which could happen if they see that it is being used in a all-encompassing side-run manner like that).  That would be a huge kick in the teeth for a small company.  I get it.

What about this?

[Magic_Randy]

My 2 cents.

I will not move away from MC because it does not sync iPhones, iPods, iTouch, iPads...

I will not give up my Apple products because MC does not support them.

Even if MC supported the devices, I would not give up iTunes. I need it for the App Store and to stay current on the firmware. And no, I will not give up on being current on firmware.

While prod may not be happy with MCiS, I am. It does allow everything to coexist.

And if there was no MCiS I would just maintain duplicate libraries. The only complaint with this approach is iTunes will not clean dead tracks (you can use a utility like iTLU) and you can sync library info back to MC.

[glynor]

Android actually does not have a high-quality non-subscription GPS application available.  It was one of the major things holding me back from switching when I chose to upgrade to the iPhone 4.  I use my iPhone as my only GPS device (using the wonderful Navigon AG GPS app).  Paying $10 a month is not an option, nor is relying upon consistent cell coverage.  I need the GPS the most when I have no signal (and in Maine, there are plenty of places where there is no signal, no matter what network you're on).

Wow.  I take it back.  There is now finally a really great GPS option for Android here... I didn't realize that Navigon had finally released their US version just a couple weeks ago.

That's really a good sign.

[jmone]

TomTom have also announced an alliance with HTC - http://www.htc.com/au/press.aspx?id=149490&lang=1033

[glynor]

TomTom have also announced an alliance with HTC - http://www.htc.com/au/press.aspx?id=149490&lang=1033

I don't know if I'd call it best in class.  TomTom's iPhone app is overpriced and not all that great.  And now for Android it'll be locked to just whichever handsets HTC selects?

Yep.  Open.  

[prod]

While prod may not be happy with MCiS, I am. It does allow everything to coexist.

Perhaps I was being ultra critical... I'm in the middle of a PhD and it's starting to become second nature. Must check that a little.

[glynor]

Fair enough.  I really do understand.  With limited resources you don't want to take the risk that Apple will change the API (which could happen if they see that it is being used in a all-encompassing side-run manner like that).  That would be a huge kick in the teeth for a small company.  I get it.

What about this?

Bump...

[jmone]

I don't know if I'd call it best in class.  TomTom's iPhone app is overpriced and not all that great.  And now for Android it'll be locked to just whichever handsets HTC selects?

Yep.  Open.  

But very familiar for us down here as TomTom has held the #1 posn for many years in Oz.

[toomanybarts]

Surely, the business decision is one of risk : do you risk the development work to include the millions of potential new customers with iPhones, iPads etc that may buy your product or spend the development time adding new twitter integration (!) that appeal to a small minority of customers...?

Do the maths, run the probability calculations and the risk assessment of Apple changing APIs and see where you end up.

(That is of course if you're making a 'business' decision and not throwing your toys out of the pram...)
Clearly you can do what you want and will - just saying...

[broherpete]

I don't understand why syncing continues to be such a problem years and years after iPod's release.

Yeah, MC14 is fine. iTunes has a better visualizer, too.

You don't seem to know what you're talking about dear friend!

[IlPadrino]

Still no joy on getting us the functionality of synching iPods by treating them as handhelds in MC?

[rar4010]

Swinging waaaayy back to the topic of Export to Itunes feature. It works OK, except the 2nd playlist I export replaces the first one in the Media Center folder on Itunes. There apparantly can only be one playlist at a time in iTunes? Am I doing something stupid?

[sunfire7]

Surely, the business decision is one of risk : do you risk the development work to include the millions of potential new customers with iPhones, iPads etc that may buy your product or spend the development time adding new twitter integration (!) that appeal to a small minority of customers...?

Do the maths, run the probability calculations and the risk assessment of Apple changing APIs and see where you end up.

(That is of course if you're making a 'business' decision and not throwing your toys out of the pram...)
Clearly you can do what you want and will - just saying...

you should add that if JRiver spends hours/days or maybe weeks of development to support the wide market of apple products, and start promoting it to gain new customers, apple just release a new itunes version wich destroys all that work and forcing new dev time, wich cost money and slow down the other cool features mc have.

I do want direct support for idevices, but as Jim says, will only happen is this situation is fixed.  What we can do is working on improve the Export to Itunes feature to the point of perfection  

[JimH]

Another not nice Apple move.  Apple kicks Sony e-reader app out.

[lalittle]

you should add that if JRiver spends hours/days or maybe weeks of development to support the wide market of apple products, and start promoting it to gain new customers, apple just release a new itunes version wich destroys all that work and forcing new dev time, wich cost money and slow down the other cool features mc have.

I do want direct support for idevices, but as Jim says, will only happen is this situation is fixed.  What we can do is working on improve the Export to Itunes feature to the point of perfection 

Nobody is arguing that some development time would be needed to keep MC working with the current version of iTunes, but consider how many people own apple handhelds.  Support for these devices could open up a HUGE potential market.  Regardless of your opinion of apple, you can't argue with their numbers -- a tremendous number of people own apple handhelds.  Even if you only attracted a tiny percentage of that crowd, it could still mean significant numbers of new MC users.

Regarding the idea of the "situation" being "fixed," it most likely already is.  Using the iTunes API is officially supported by apple -- it's just "direct syncing" (which bypasses iTunes altogether) that is not supported.

Larry

[JimH]

The dev team is all packing Androids now.  That might give you an idea of where we're going with respect to Apple.

[lalittle]

The dev team is all packing Androids now.  That might give you an idea of where we're going with respect to Apple.

I have an Android phone as well (Motorola), and from a sound quality standpoint, it's absolutely HORRIBLE as a music player.  It has an obscenely underpowered amp that cannot come anywhere NEAR my desired listening levels, let alone produce any semblance of tight low end.  If I try to listen to music with even modest deep bass, the amp can't keep up -- not even at low volume levels.  Bass just sounds flabby and starts to distort way too easily even with efficient headphones.  There are certainly many Android devices that I haven't heard, so I can't speak for all of them, but the ones I have heard are flat out unacceptable for music listening.  My iPod is certainly no great achiever when it comes to sound quality, and I hate, hate, hate the "preset only" eq, but as bad as it is, its sound quality is (sadly) still clearly superior compared to the Droid.

That said, I don't see how the whole "Android argument" changes anything.  The fact remains that apple still has a giant share of the market (still the largest by every evaluation I've seen, and most evaluations don't even include iPods, iTouches, iPads, etc.), so any support for these handhelds equates to potential extra business for JR.

I'm just sayin'...

Larry

[aldonc]

I haven't posted much here but have been using MC since V12. I did not upgrade to V15 waiting to see what happened with iPhone syncing. I guess I have my answer.

I absolutely respect that Jim & JRiver have to make the right choice from a business perspective for them. There are a million different things they can do and if they only stopped sleeping every night, they could probably make better progress thru that list.

I have to make the right choice from a consumer perspective for me. I'm not willing to go through extra steps and to figure out what's working and what's not to sync music to my phone/ipod - this thread has been going on for nearly a year and progress seems really slow on answering questions about issues/bugs raised. As long as the support for the iPhone is getting so little attention, there's no reason for me to upgrade now or the future I guess.

thanks,
Aldon

[shAf]

....  The fact remains that apple still has a giant share of the market (still the largest by every evaluation I've seen, and most evaluations don't even include iPods, iTouches, iPads, etc.), so any support for these handhelds equates to potential extra business for JR.

I'm just sayin'...

Apple policies aside ... the other aspect that JR seems to be ignoring is the 3rd-party hardware market that only the iPod owns right now.  For example, I happened to stay at Johannesburg hotel a couple of months ago, and they had an Bose iPod dock in every room!  Android devices will never see that kind of 3rd-party support, and JR seems to be ignoring why so many of us interested in handheld music go the iPod route instead of any other device.

No doubt, programming for Apple devices may be an up-hill effort ... but is that any reason for JR to give up entirely??

my CA$0.02 

[sunfire7]

Jim, I want native support for ipods, but as you said and I understand, you are all about androids now, ok, so what about the "Export playlist to itunes" feature? I think is very nice feature just need to be improved some more: As is now you can only export mp3 (lossy), it should be a way to convert lossless on the fly or use the cache, and a Way to build cache without have to set a handheld or stream.  Can this be possible?? this will solve most of the problems I have to sync

[Zentish]

As a long time Media Jukebox user and an iPhone owner, I keep looking at purchasing MC and then backing away since it doesn't offer enough more over what I already have in MJ. I hate itunes, but understand the issues of the closed versus open devices.

I'm sitting here staring at itunes "Determining Gapless Playback Information" as I have to periodically rebuild my itunes music library from MJ. It takes days.

If MC had just a little bit more iPhone support I would take the plunge and convert everything to MC.

1) Export playlists into itunes
2) Support from a library server

[ChrisRainman]

It's very sad to see that JRiver's strategy is focused on android support only. You seem to expect that Apple devices will play a inferior role in a few years, do you?

I've read the thread and have seen lots of good arguments for / against supporting apple and their unreliable strategy. Anyway, I doubt it's a clever strategy to oppose against apple. On your homepage and product description of MC you still advertise of MC being controllable by ipad, iphone and ipod. Yes, it's true. But people expect more than just using the web interface. I don't want to repeat what has been said - also my english is not good enough. But one thought I still have in mind:

You say there's no business case in supporting apple devices. I don't know the number of licenses you're selling. But couldn't it be possible to develop and sell apple integration functionality as a kind of add-on? Let's say this is 20 - 30 Dollars extra. How many would buy it if it really offers all the missing gaps? In case apple kicks you out or changes the API you could work on an upgrade against money again.

IMHO I rather would pay some more money than saying to use itunes exclusively to get rid of this JRiver incompatibility problems.

[JimH]

We had spent a couple hundred thousand dollars on iPod support when Apple changed the game and made it usesless.  We won't make the same mistake again.

There are now more Android devices sold than those from Apple.  Apple will do well.  We just won't support them.