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Author Topic: MC with Win Phone 7  (Read 4693 times)

WeeHappyPixie

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MC with Win Phone 7
« on: October 13, 2010, 01:11:45 pm »

Guy's,

Are there any plans for MC15 to support the new Windows Phone 7 so I can easily transfer my media to and from the device or am I going to have to use the Zune software.

Cheers in advance,


John
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Matt

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Re: MC with Win Phone 7
« Reply #1 on: October 13, 2010, 01:46:45 pm »

If a Windows Phone 7 device uses the Microsoft standard WMDM protocol for communication, it will work.  It will also work if the device shows up as a drive.

But Microsoft chose to lock down Zune, so they may do the same with their phone.  If this is the case, you might consider an Android.
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glynor

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Re: MC with Win Phone 7
« Reply #2 on: October 13, 2010, 03:57:06 pm »

But Microsoft chose to lock down Zune, so they may do the same with their phone.  If this is the case, you might consider an Android.

They've as-much as admitted that this will be the case.  Someone from Microsoft tweeted (around the time of the Windows Phone 7 unveil this week) that the Zune software would be coming to Mac OSX in order to allow people to use "their Macs to sync with #WP7".  The tweet was pulled down, but not before it was (of course) widely disseminated.

Mac users wouldn't need the Zune software if the device shows up as a drive, of course.
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glynor

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Re: MC with Win Phone 7
« Reply #3 on: October 13, 2010, 04:05:58 pm »

Oops.  I missed it (I've been, you know, working today)... They made it official today.  I'd call that pretty much confirmed.  Windows Phone 7 will be locked to their proprietary software just like the Zune.

In other words... Worse than the iPhone (at least iTunes is fully scriptable).
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JimH

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Re: MC with Win Phone 7
« Reply #4 on: October 13, 2010, 04:07:06 pm »

I love Android.
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glynor

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Re: MC with Win Phone 7
« Reply #5 on: October 13, 2010, 04:10:01 pm »

I love Android.

Sigh.  I really wish someone would fix the issues with it, but not so far.  On the other hand, I have a lot of hope for Android tablets once Gingerbread ships (I have zero faith in Samsung to not screw it up, and it sure looks like they are with the pricing and carrier ties).  Hopefully, I'll be the proud owner of a shiny new HTC or ASUS Android tablet by this time next year.
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WeeHappyPixie

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Re: MC with Win Phone 7
« Reply #6 on: October 14, 2010, 03:19:41 am »

Looks like it might have to be Android then when me contract is due. I was told though that Exchange wont work with Android hence sticking with Win Phone.

I really dinnae like the Zune software and am so used to MC now that I dont want to change to any other media management software.

Thanks for the replies guys.

John
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glynor

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Re: MC with Win Phone 7
« Reply #7 on: October 14, 2010, 08:57:53 am »

Android's Exchange support is certainly a bit weak, though it was dramatically improved with FroYo (2.2).  Actually, I'm not a huge fan of the regular mail app on Android at all, or how the Gmail app is separate.  Of the two, iOS has a superior exchange experience (and, IMHO, generally a superior email experience, except for that Gmail is absolutely fantastic on a Google-branded Android phone).

However, if you do decide to go the Android route, and full Exchange support is essential for you, you need to check out TouchDown, which solves many of those problems and more.
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Mr ChriZ

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Re: MC with Win Phone 7
« Reply #8 on: October 14, 2010, 09:53:22 am »

I'm intrigued I use exchange all the time on 2.1/HTC Legend with no problems.
What issues do others see with it?

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Re: MC with Win Phone 7
« Reply #9 on: October 14, 2010, 10:27:44 am »

Apreciate your advice what are the steps/software  required for my HTC handphone
running mobile windows 6.5

thanks
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WeeHappyPixie

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Re: MC with Win Phone 7
« Reply #10 on: October 14, 2010, 01:45:10 pm »

Android's Exchange support is certainly a bit weak, though it was dramatically improved with FroYo (2.2).  Actually, I'm not a huge fan of the regular mail app on Android at all, or how the Gmail app is separate.  Of the two, iOS has a superior exchange experience (and, IMHO, generally a superior email experience, except for that Gmail is absolutely fantastic on a Google-branded Android phone).

However, if you do decide to go the Android route, and full Exchange support is essential for you, you need to check out TouchDown, which solves many of those problems and more.

Cheers Ed for all yer help

John
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glynor

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Re: MC with Win Phone 7
« Reply #11 on: October 14, 2010, 02:18:23 pm »

I'm intrigued I use exchange all the time on 2.1/HTC Legend with no problems.
What issues do others see with it?

It isn't so much "issues" (though there are some of those) it is more a question of capabilities.

The top problems we deal with at my office are:

1. It does not properly support device encryption, and therefore does not work if your server is configured to enforce this rule (it works like iOS used to in 2.0).  This is probably the number one thing that rules out Android uses in corporate Exchange/Outlook environments.
2. Searching server-side messages is not supported.
3. No access to Tasks, Notes, Global Address Book.
4. Push updates are sometimes almost always delayed (especially calendar updates).
5. Subfolders do not automatically update.

There are also lots of problems with built-in calendaring support too.  It just isn't in the same class of support as Windows Mobile or Blackberry.  Even iOS is a few steps ahead of the Android Exchange implementation.  And then on top of it, each of the different handset vendors skin the mail app and breaks different things themselves (Motorola has tended to be the worst).  Each new OTA update fixes some old bugs, and then breaks new stuff.  Just because you've tested and gotten the Droid X working, doesn't mean that the HTC Droid Incredible works, or the Samsung Fascinate, or whatever.  There are a million implementations, and a million things to test.

Like I said, Android 2.2 is WAY better than older versions (which were essentially unusable), but it isn't quite there yet.
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Mr ChriZ

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Re: MC with Win Phone 7
« Reply #12 on: October 15, 2010, 10:44:04 am »

I guess I'm still getting over the having email on my phone bit! :-)  To be honest I wish more of it didn't work.  It just integrates me more into 'The System'....
I don't see number 4.  Most of the time it gets there including the calendar stuff before Outlook does.

Still waiting for Froyo on the Legend.  HTC is being very slow :-(

raldo

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Re: MC with Win Phone 7
« Reply #13 on: October 15, 2010, 11:06:48 am »

Oops.  I missed it (I've been, you know, working today)... They made it official today.  I'd

That particular article talks about a Zune client for MACs.

This is unfortunate for MAC users, but I see nowhere if the WMDM protocol will be implemented on Phone 7 so that Windows Mobile Device Center can be used on other OSes (Win7, XP etc).
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glynor

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Re: MC with Win Phone 7
« Reply #14 on: October 15, 2010, 12:07:59 pm »

That particular article talks about a Zune client for MACs.

This is unfortunate for MAC users, but I see nowhere if the WMDM protocol will be implemented on Phone 7 so that Windows Mobile Device Center can be used on other OSes (Win7, XP etc).

Sigh.  Did you read my comment above?

They've as-much as admitted that this will be the case.  Someone from Microsoft tweeted (around the time of the Windows Phone 7 unveil this week) that the Zune software would be coming to Mac OSX in order to allow people to use "their Macs to sync with #WP7".  The tweet was pulled down, but not before it was (of course) widely disseminated.

Mac users wouldn't need the Zune software if the device shows up as a drive, of course.

No, they haven't announced specifically that WP7 will be tied to the Zune software (why would they?).  But I'm perfectly capable of reading between the lines and evaluating the likely direction of the product based on their past behavior.  If the phone was able to show up as a drive in OSX via MTP, then there would be little-or-no reason for Microsoft to spend considerable resources developing the Zune software for OSX.  It isn't like the Zune software is going to be able to compete with iTunes on OSX as a general desktop music player.  I would say that even without this announcement, there was only a tiny chance that Microsoft would put a standard MTP interface (which would then be handled by WMDM) on WP7, based on what they did with their Zune players.

With the announcement that they're developing Zune for OSX?  Yeah, that takes the chances down to just about zero.  The only rational business reason they could have for developing the Zune desktop software for OSX would be to, as the Microsoft employee tweeted, allow people to use WP7 with their Macs.

Macs handle MTP just fine all on their own.  If you need Zune to use WP7 on your Mac, then you also need it to use WP7 on your Windows box.
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glynor

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Re: MC with Win Phone 7
« Reply #15 on: October 15, 2010, 12:20:00 pm »

Still waiting for Froyo on the Legend.  HTC is being very slow :-(

That's the biggest problem with Android right now.  There are also some relatively minor fit-and-finish issues, but mostly it is that Android is open for the carriers and the handset makers, but NOT open for the real customers (us).  Being forced to rely on HTC or Samsung or Motorola to (against their interests) spend considerable resources to support their old products with new software releases is unacceptable.  Those handset makers have a motivation to NOT support their products (they want you to buy a new one).  But, that makes it impossible to treat the phone as a platform (which is what Apple understood early-on). Smartphones are not phones.  They're computers that happen to also contain a phone.

To Apple, the "customer" is the end user.

To Microsoft, the customer for Windows Mobile has always been the carriers and handset makers.  Hopefully with WP7 this will change.

For Google, it isn't clear, but it seems like the customer is mostly the carriers and the handset makers, but in a slightly different way (because they aren't "selling" the product, they are using those companies as a means to an end).  Unfortunately, most of the carriers and handset makers still have the "old cellphone industry" mindset.
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raldo

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Re: MC with Win Phone 7
« Reply #16 on: October 15, 2010, 03:16:09 pm »

Sigh.  Did you read my comment above?

Sigh. I did and it looks as if you're the one concluding on the issue. I.e. it's speculation.

I'd think that nowadays, a "New Os" would need a "developed" market place (especially if you're interfacing MAC users).

I don't see why implementing a Zune client on Mac would exclude MTP. Most likely well be able to upload music files and play them on Phone7. Time will show.


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glynor

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Re: MC with Win Phone 7
« Reply #17 on: October 15, 2010, 04:50:35 pm »

Yes.  I am, and they could... But they won't.

We shall see.

BTW: I meant it was "confirmed" that they were making an OSX version, not "confirmed" that it won't have MTP.  At the time I wrote the first post, the only hint of the OSX version was a deleted tweet.  Subsequently THAT was confirmed.
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ThoBar

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Re: MC with Win Phone 7
« Reply #18 on: October 16, 2010, 01:11:57 am »

FWIW, the understanding that I have (via a MS rep at a Tech-Ed conference) is that WP7 will not require the Zune software to put media onto the phone - and that it would be able use media from an SD card plugged into the phone.

Accurate? I can't say... but it's wat I was told. We'll just have to wait until someone else gets one. 

--
They do look like a nice phone, and the one I briefly played with was very nice to flick about in. It's going to be interesting to see if we can use some form of interaction with the Zune software to make use of the wireless sync they purportedly have...
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glynor

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Re: MC with Win Phone 7
« Reply #19 on: October 16, 2010, 12:02:53 pm »

FWIW, the understanding that I have (via a MS rep at a Tech-Ed conference) is that WP7 will not require the Zune software to put media onto the phone - and that it would be able use media from an SD card plugged into the phone.

Ahh... Via the SD Card.  Now that could work!  Of course, it depends on what the OS limits for using the expandable storage are, but that really shouldn't matter for using it with media.

Yeah, that very well could be the case!  So, my assumption could certainly be wrong!

I agree that the OS looks promising (though I'm not convinced on the "looks" of the Metro UI).  It is just too bad that all of our broadly-available handset choices here in the US (AT&T) are fairly crappy.  Sure T-Mo has a nice Win7 phone, but I can't use T-Mo here in Maine.  That's a joke (and if you need to go anywhere else remotely rural, T-Mo is a joke).

On that note... I always have to laugh when the people at Engadget Mobile pour the love on T-Mobile.  They totally "gloss over" the coverage limits (saying "it works fine here in NY or Chicago or San Fran").  I always think... Bring that sucker up here and see how well it works.  I see it in person all the time.  I live in a very touristy area of Maine.  We get LOTS of New Yorkers and Bostonites coming up here and holding their T-Mobile and Sprint phones up in the air looking for signal.  I always think... You're gonna have to hold it a LOT higher than that, buddy.

But, yes, I agree.  The OS looks very promising, if not quite ready for prime-time yet.  I look forward to see what Microsoft does with version 2 of their new platform.  Things are about to get very interesting.
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glynor

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Re: MC with Win Phone 7
« Reply #20 on: October 25, 2010, 10:14:01 am »

FWIW, the understanding that I have (via a MS rep at a Tech-Ed conference) is that WP7 will not require the Zune software to put media onto the phone

Well, unfortunately, it looks like your MS Rep completely misled you.

The story on Windows Phone 7's mass storage support isn't a good one, and it really doesn't have a happy ending.  Suffice to say that it is actually even a slight bit MORE user hostile than iOS at this point.

First, the SD cards included on some phones are not removable and are not accessible via MTP.  WP7 uses a "unified" file system, which hides the complexity of the separate SD card storage and internal Flash storage.  The SD card slot is not designed to be user-swappable.  The way it works is this:  When you buy a WP7 device that has a SD card slot (not all of them do), and turn it on for the first time ever, it initializes the SD card storage as part of the boot up process.  It uses this storage in concert with the internal flash storage sort-of like a RAID system.  When you are using the phone, all of the storage on the device appears as one monolithic "hunk" of storage (which is nice).

However, you cannot remove the SD card.  Now, to be clear, none of the SD card slots are easily user-accessible with a "slot" on the exterior of the device.  Microsoft requires that the SD card slot be placed under the battery cover and not be externally accessible.  Many of the phones actually have SD cards internally, but they aren't even in the battery compartment, but inside the shell of the phone itself (completely inaccessible other than if you crack open the case).  Some are somewhat user-accessible, but these are behind the battery cover and aren't designed to be swapped.  The support of SD cards is effectively a way for manufacturers to cheaply modify the amount of storage sold with their phones, without having to actually modify the design of the hardware itself.  So, in six months if Samsung feels like they need to sell a "32 GB" phone for competitive reasons, they simply swap out the SD cards on the phones they're selling for higher capacity ones.  As Paul Thurrott explained here, it is possible for the end-user to replace the SD cards on their devices, but this is NOT supported and it will wipe the device back to "blank slate" status (brand new).  You cannot swap media in and out on the SD cards, or use them "pre-filled" in any way.  And, according to Myriam Joire (tnkgrl) on the recent Engadget Mobile Podcast, doing so will also void your warranty.  From Paul's article:

Quote
What you can’t do is swap it out without hard resetting the device. That’s because the storage on the card and the internal storage is comingled, and the system makes no differentiation. There’s no way to know where something (an app, song, whatever) is stored, and if you do pop out the card, the phone will complain. And it won’t be readable on your PC, so you can’t use it to transfer content in either direction.

So, that covers the SD card.  Now, as far as MTP support for the device as a whole?  Yeah, that's a no-go as well.  And as I said, it is even more user-hostile than iOS at this point.  There is absolutely NO mass storage support on the device of any kind, even for photos.  In iOS, while the device's file system is generally locked down, you do get Mass Storage support when you connect the phone to your computer to have easy access to the photos on the device, and you can use that storage space like a USB drive.  You generally can't access the files from within the phone (though some apps work around this limitation), but you can on other computers.  Not so for Windows Phone 7.  All file transfers to and from a Windows Phone 7 device must be done via the Zune Software.  Period.  Now, it does support the cool wireless syncing (though there appear to be a bunch of ifs and buts in that regard, but it still works cool).

This is the relevant section of the Engadget WP7 review:

Quote
A couple of other important aspects to note about Zune and Windows Phone 7 is that the desktop software and these devices are now extremely interconnected, and the Zune desktop software allows wireless sync. Not only do you use the Zune software to sync your music and videos, but you'll be able to buy apps from the marketplace on your computer, you can sync photos in the Zune application, and your general account and device management is handled through the app now. It's a pretty similar arrangement to that of the iPhone and iTunes, and we can't really complain about Microsoft taking that page out of Apple's playbook. Microsoft has always been good about syncing, but this makes the process slightly less obtuse than its ActiveSync options from the Windows Mobile heyday.
...
As far as Mac syncing goes, Microsoft has released a beta utility which does syncing of music, videos, and photos to the device (and at least photos back to your computer). It gets the job done for the most part, but it's a little rough around the edges at this stage. Still, it's great that Microsoft is being inclusive here, and the process was mostly without incident.

This was confirmed, again, in the most recent episode of the Engadget Mobile Podcast.  Myriam explained that she was unable to upload all of her pictures in a batch from her test phone, and was unable to get to them via mass storage support.  When you connect the phone, you get no "drive" of any kind in Windows or OSX.

Quote
You know, I have to say... Now that I've actually had some hands-on time with Windows Phone 7, it's really quite nice.  There are a few things that piss me off.  Last night, those pictures that I took with the Mozart, I couldn't upload them easily to our servers in a big batch because there was no mass storage support on the phone, to connect to my mac and upload to the livestream.  So I ended up having to email them individually to one of the Engadget editors.  I'm sure there's a way to gather them all together and email them in one shot, but I couldn't figure out how to do that really quickly.

One of the other contributors to the podcast then responded and explained that you need to use the Zune software to sync the photos down to your computer's hard drive.  They all then went on an extended rant about how "this is just wrong" and then described the SD card issues in more detail (worth a listen if you're curious about this whole thing).

So, looks like my suspicions were completely right...  To sum up:

Windows Phone 7 is completely locked to the Zune software.  You cannot use MTP to put files onto the phone, and you cannot use it to get files off of the phone, even photos.  The file system is completely inaccessible to the user, and if you pull that SD card out, not only will you lose all data on the phone, but you also won't be able to actually read anything on the SD card itself in Windows, and you probably voided your warranty.
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JimH

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Re: MC with Win Phone 7
« Reply #21 on: October 25, 2010, 10:28:44 am »

Thanks a lot for the full report, glynor.

I'm reminded of a visit I made once to a direct mail business in Vermont.  Way in the back of the rabbit warren of customer service reps, there was a telephone nailed to a post with a huge railroad spike through it.
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glynor

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Re: MC with Win Phone 7
« Reply #22 on: October 25, 2010, 10:33:29 am »

I'm reminded of a visit I made once to a direct mail business in Vermont.  Way in the back of the rabbit warren of customer service reps, there was a telephone nailed to a post with a huge railroad spike through it.

 ;D

It is baffling.  At this point, I think we're more likely to eventually get MTP support out of Apple before Microsoft.  I can at least see customer demand pushing Apple towards this because the iPad is somewhat crippled by this limitation (for consuming media the "sync" paradigm is fine, but for content creation, you really need a shared "My Documents" space on the device).  But even that is certainly unlikely enough as it is...
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Re: MC with Win Phone 7
« Reply #23 on: October 25, 2010, 10:41:28 am »

Android for the win?
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Re: MC with Win Phone 7
« Reply #24 on: October 25, 2010, 10:56:14 am »

Android for the win?

They need to fix some crap to get me as a customer, but hopefully eventually.

Maybe Gingerbread...
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Re: MC with Win Phone 7
« Reply #25 on: October 25, 2010, 08:32:00 pm »

Yes, I saw something last night that concurs with Glynor's information, which looks like it's sunk my non-Zune hopes for the platform.

It's MOST DISSAPOINTING!  >:(

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glynor

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Re: MC with Win Phone 7
« Reply #26 on: October 25, 2010, 08:58:46 pm »

It really makes me sad.  It seems like Microsoft is doing what they've done in the past, and trying to emulate a success they see elsewhere, and then dominate in that emulation.  But I don't know if they can win this one, or if they really should.  Do they really think they're going to out-walled-garden Apple?

Google has clearly decided to take the opposite track.  They're going the linux-esque free-for-all route.  It makes sense in light of who their customers are, but will it really work?  Did BSD?  It worries me that the model seems to have been to cede "authority" to the cell phone industry itself.  The protectionism is killing it, but Google won't stop it.  In some ways, they can't, really.  It is the grand experiment.

I think if a more visionary person was at the helm of Microsoft, they would see this situation not like Lotus 123 and Excel, or Wordperfect and Word, or Netscape and IE, but instead... They'd see it like MS-DOS and the array of proprietary systems that existed before it.  They succeeded then by being open but controlled.  Not the perfect utopia of "freedom" but not the perfect slave to UI, but still with a better and more consumer-friendly UI than the other "really open" platforms of the time.  Just closed enough to keep the market from spiraling out of control.

Maybe it is a needle that can only be thread by anyone once?  Maybe no one is going to make the mistakes IBM made all those years ago, not seeing the vulture circling in the sky?  Maybe it's just because Microsoft now is IBM.
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