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Yes

3 (12.5%)

Doesn't matter

3 (12.5%)

Not every change

8 (33.3%)

No

10 (41.7%)

Total Members Voted: 24

Voting closed: October 28, 2010, 01:42:23 am

[MarkCoutinho]

To help JRiver to have an insight on what the users want I post this poll.

In the Action Window there have been some changes since build 15.0.125. JRiver have done this to make life for users easier. But as far as I'm concerned it's gone from good to bad. My concerns:
- To jump from one field to another (if you're in the edit-mode) you have to hit the Tab-button twice instead of once
- To fill in a new album title (and in other similar fields): when a title is in the database that matches the first word of that title the latter one is the default if you hit the Enter-button. In the past when you filled the title "A change" and hit Enter that title was filled. Now (for instance) "A change is gonna come" is chosen. Workaround: First hit Escape and then Enter
- To walk from one record to another in edit-mode: in the old style it was just the Arrow-down key. Now it's Ctrl-Arrow-down by default
- and probably some other stuff

It seems all just as minor things, but when you edit a lot (like I do) it's annoying. The old way was so much more intuitive.
What's your opinion?

[gappie]

i love the new tagging ui. i too do a lot of tagging, it took me a bit to get used to it, but i'm two times as quick as before, make less mistakes and find it easier to get the tags that i look for. besides that i love the fact that list fields can be organized the way i want.
before, with for instance places i had to type "england\london" and after ten letters i got it autifilled now i type londen, "lo" enter is already enough to get england london. the same is true for artist. before i had to check, was it Steve Coleman & five elements or steve coleman and five elements. coleman gives me immediately the right solution.

 
gab

edit: i want to add an other example. yesterday i had to tag something in the composer field. a guy named bach. now i knew i had him before, but was it bach, or js bach or j.s. bach, or johann sebastian bach. before it was long scroll to check that. now just typing bach was enough to find the right one (and to see that i had used two of these options before   so i could clean that easily).

[Matt]

- To jump from one field to another (if you're in the edit-mode) you have to hit the Tab-button twice instead of once

Could you explain this more?  Is it only when a suggestion is showing?  Or only when dealing with list-style fields?

I'm able to tab between fields in both the Action Window and in-place list editing.

- To fill in a new album title (and in other similar fields): when a title is in the database that matches the first word of that title the latter one is the default if you hit the Enter-button.

I can't reproduce this.  The shorter exact match should always be the first suggestion.

If my library has "The" and "The Test", if I type "th" then "The" will be the first suggestion.

In the past when you filled the title "A change" and hit Enter that title was filled. Now (for instance) "A change is gonna come" is chosen. Workaround: First hit Escape and then Enter

We think wanting a match of an existing value is more likely than a substring of an existing value.  The substring is match #2 (available with down + enter).

The old approach also did this.  You had to hit Delete, then Enter to remove auto-complete text.

- To walk from one record to another in edit-mode: in the old style it was just the Arrow-down key. Now it's Ctrl-Arrow-down by default

Please be sure you're testing build 132, because I'm able to arrow around nicely.  If suggestions appear, you might have to arrow down a second time to exit the suggestion.  I would expect suggestions for existing fields to be rare.

[lepa]

I'm getting drop down list now always if I press F2 so I can't navigate with up/down when in edit mode. I'm was sure this didn't happen with this build earlier??? Things are not good right now. For example going through track numbers is nerve wrecking procedure currently.

E:
Okay, so now the procedure to edit e.g. track number is following
F2 --> 1 --> Enter --> down --> 2 --> Enter --> down ...
before it use to be:
F2 -->1 --> down --> 2 --> down

I'm sorry but I'm hating this at the moment. (Of course I'm not hating you guys )

[lepa]

Could you explain this more?  Is it only when a suggestion is showing?  Or only when dealing with list-style fields?

I'm able to tab between fields in both the Action Window and in-place list editing.


I can't reproduce this.  The shorter exact match should always be the first suggestion.

If my library has "The" and "The Test", if I type "th" then "The" will be the first suggestion.

Same problem with album called Bob Dylan
As I have also album called Another Side of Bob Dylan that is chosen if I press enter after typing 'Bob Dylan' to the album field.

On positive side those examples provided by Gappie are great.

[MarkCoutinho]

Could you explain this more?  Is it only when a suggestion is showing?  Or only when dealing with list-style fields?
I'm able to tab between fields in both the Action Window and in-place list editing.

I can't reproduce this.  The shorter exact match should always be the first suggestion.


We think wanting a match of an existing value is more likely than a substring of an existing value.  The substring is match #2 (available with down + enter).
The old approach also did this.  You had to hit Delete, then Enter to remove auto-complete text.


Please be sure you're testing build 132, because I'm able to arrow around nicely.  If suggestions appear, you might have to arrow down a second time to exit the suggestion.  I would expect suggestions for existing fields to be rare.

1. It is 'hanging' when the suggestions are shown. If not: one Tab is enough to go to the next field.
2. If my library has "The" and "The Test", if I type "th" then "The" will be the first suggestion.
This is what I mean: For example, let's assume I already have an album called "A brand new day". Now I have this new album, called "A brand". In the old situation, when I typed "A brand" and hit the Enter-key the field was filled with that title. But now it's almost impossible to enter "A brand" because MC picks "A brand new day" when I hit the Enter-key. I'd say better would be: the Enter should finalize the new entry; if you'd want to pick the first suggestion you'd have to arrow-down once.
3. See my explanation above, Matt, although I think you don't know what I mean, but I can't describe it another way, being a non-English speaking person.
4. I am using build 132. I mean this, Matt (and as I just re-tested it, it seems to be even worse than I thought): when an Album-field is IN the edit-mode and the suggestion-list is shown you cannot walk to the next line/record. Not with Arrow-down, not with Ctrl-Arrow-down. In the pre-125-period a simple Arrow-down was enough.

Hope this makes things clearer.

[MarkCoutinho]

i love the new tagging ui. i too do a lot of tagging, it took me a bit to get used to it, but i'm two times as quick as before, make less mistakes and find it easier to get the tags that i look for. besides that i love the fact that list fields can be organized the way i want.
before, with for instance places i had to type "england\london" and after ten letters i got it autifilled now i type londen, "lo" enter is already enough to get england london. the same is true for artist. before i had to check, was it Steve Coleman & five elements or steve coleman and five elements. coleman gives me immediately the right solution.

 
gab

edit: i want to add an other example. yesterday i had to tag something in the composer field. a guy named bach. now i knew i had him before, but was it bach, or js bach or j.s. bach, or johann sebastian bach. before it was long scroll to check that. now just typing bach was enough to find the right one (and to see that i had used two of these options before   so i could clean that easily).

I understand your enthusiasm, Gab. I too see this advantage. My point is just that the default behaviour should be like it was in the old days. In my opinion it's far more intuitive.

[MarkCoutinho]

(I start to feel like a stalker...) Me again: it seems impossible to make a change in the Album field in this case: I named the album "A Change is gonna Come". Then I want to uppercase the word 'gonna'. But when I do this and I hit the Enter button the old value (with lower case) is chosen. When I hit the Escape button: ditto. Seems like a bug to me.

[mark_h]

Three changes I'd like to see which would improve things are:

a) If a library field has 'Acceptable Values' defined, they should always been shown when editing is entered in the list below the field with checkboxes against them for rapid tagging with accepted values.  No typing needed.  Why should I have to continually type 'y' 'e' 's' - when Yes is defined as an acceptable value - just show it (and all defined values), let me click the right one and let me move on.

b) a quick way to exit the field after setting the value.  It used to be that you could hit down arrow to move to the same field for the next track, which was then opened for editing (it still works this way on certain fields - which means there is now inconsistency in the UI - never a good thing).  This was exceptionally handy when doing lots of tagging.  Now it's not only actually quite difficult to leave a field after changing a value but the next field remains closed.  This requires multiple interactions instead of just one.

c) as per above, when editing, if you move down to the field below the one you edited the next should be opened for editing.  One of the great strengths of MC is its tagging abilities.  And while they have taken two steps forward with the new scheme they have also taken a step backwards in terms of usability.

As it stands, the initial changes broke MC for me, but some of my concerns have been addressed and I can now see the value of the new system, but I still think there are some wrinkles to iron out.  But I do feel that we're heading towards a better system than was there previously.

Mark

[vagskal]

Matt, is the tab & ctrl+arrow behaviour that you describe supposed to work in list view editing also with custom fields that are made list-type fields (

Code: [Select]

[artist]&datatype=[list], for instance)? I do not see that behaviour. If I just double click such a field I am stuck (ctrl+down arrow does not move to next file and tab, or ctrl+tab, or tab+tab+tab..., does not move to next field).

In the tag action window I have no list-type fields and tab between fields works (if suggestions pop up tab+tab moves to next field), but ctrl+arrow down does not move to next file. Is ctrl+arrow down/up supposed to move to next file also in the tag action window?

BTW I like the new suggestion feature for the reasons gappie mentioned.

[lepa]

(it still works this way on certain fields - which means there is now inconsistency in the UI - never a good thing).  

Shhhhhhh...
I've been relaxing myself by editing Name fields

[rjm]

For me it's all about the number of mouse and keyboard actions.

Assume I've already selected a block of files and the correct column, and assume I want to apply two items:

Old method: F2, wheel to selection, click to select, wheel to selection, click to select, Enter to apply
New method: F2, click to add, wheel to selection, Enter to select, click to add, wheel to selection, Enter to select, Enter to apply

New method takes 2 more actions (or one extra action for every list item applied).

Therefore I prefer the old method.

[Matt]

For example going through track numbers is nerve wrecking procedure currently.

Agreed.

In build 133:
Changed: Editing of numeric fields (like Track #) will use a simple edit instead of a combobox with suggestions.

[Matt]

For me it's all about the number of mouse and keyboard actions.

Assume I've already selected a block of files and the correct column, and assume I want to apply two items:

Old method: F2, wheel to selection, click to select, wheel to selection, click to select, Enter to apply
New method: F2, click to add, wheel to selection, Enter to select, click to add, wheel to selection, Enter to select, Enter to apply

New method takes 2 more actions (or one extra action for every list item applied).

Therefore I prefer the old method.

Next build:
Changed: When using the list editor, selecting a value combobox list or selecting a suggestion when typing will immediately add the value to the list below.

[rick.ca]

There needs to be a consistent way to move from field-to-field and record-to-record while in edit mode—regardless of the type of the current field. The way it is now, this is done with Tab/Shift-Tab and Up/Down—until a List field is encountered. Then these key combinations are used within the List field edit, and there's no way to accomplish the inter-field and inter-record navigation. Perhaps there's an argument for being inconsistent so the easier single keystrokes can be used within the List edit. If so, at least provide alternate keystrokes (e.g., Ctrl-Arrow) for the other operations. My preference would be for consistency—using something different like Ctrl-Arrow for navigation within an edit, and leaving Tab and Up/Down with their existing functions.

[gappie]

Next build:
Changed: When using the list editor, selecting a value combobox list or selecting a suggestion when typing will immediately add the value to the list below.

im not gonna protest immediately, i have to first really use it. but this sounds terrible. we're back 2 builds. and a long way to go to editing. i also do disagree with rjm. most of the time it is much less clicks to add someting.. ofcourse, when one wants to use the wheel, but it so much less necessary to use it now.

[MusicHawk]

Excuse the partial repost of comments in the build .132 thread, but JimH said discussion needs to be separate thread, so here's a an updated version.


15.0.122 and earlier have a consistent UI that is very keyboard-efficient. But as of .125 (and .132), it is often impossible to not use the mouse, and to not make inadvertent mistakes.

The UI "enhancements" have introduced extra keystrokes, inconsistent keys/actions, "suggestions" that become unwanted defaults, and a loop trap that disrupts the prior always-reliable Tab. The changes seem to make it impossible to have a keyboard-friendly typing-tagging "groove", as was possible pre-.125.

Example:

1. Open Tag action window on a track that already has values in most fields (vs. blank fields).

2. Try to Tab through the fields. STUCK.

The old system allowed this. It was possible to tab into the field, then into the list, move around the list to select any desired values using Spacebar, then Tab out of the list into the next field. It was an efficient system: left-hand on Tab and sometimes Esc, right-hand on arrows and sometimes Enter -- mouse rarely needed.

But the new system stops cold when it encounters a list-type field.
Tab-1: enters the field and below it shows a sublist.
Tab-2: opens the sublist in the Add field.
Tab-3: jumps to first item in sublist.
Tab-4: jumps back to Add field.
Tab-5 same as Tab-3, etc -- it's a circle -- no amount of Tabbing will get out of this. But in pre-sublist MC, Tabbing a couple of times would reliably move to the next field.

So, how to get out? Esc or Enter will exit the field, but also exit the entire Tag window and jump back at the selected track in the view. So I must grab the mouse to get back into the Tag window, carefully selecting the NEXT field lest I get back into the loop. But if it is also a list-type field, same behavior.


Also, the sublist "suggestions" are odd. I'm editing one track, by a one-hit artist, in a subview that shows nothing but the one track. I'm entering the stock Artist field, which already has this artist name in it. Yet the sublist shows several values that semi-match this artist -- but not all values that would match, so what's the point? (Artist name is "Jacks"; sublist shows "Jacks", "Applejacks", "Jackson, Joe", but not all the other "Jackson" artists, which become visible if I then select "See all 51 results". What are the odds that in the short suggestions list MC will guess and show the appropriate suggestions?

If while looking at the intial suggestions I press Tab (because that's always been the all-purpose field nav key), the "51 results" option vanishes and I'm simply stuck in the Add/sublist.

Note that I can then use Shift+Down to open the full list, but now it's not the "51 results" list, but seems to be everything in this field in the entire database, HUGE in my library. (Also, I have to be in the Add field rather than having pressed Tab again to jump into the sublist area.)


Another oddity. Perhaps, once in the Add field, I really do want to search. I can type the Artist name "Jacks" and MC again searches -- but now it displays different results than before -- same field, same Artist name, different search results: "Jacks", "Applejacks", "Jacks, Terry". What happened to "Jackson, Joe"? (Or, why did the first search match "Jackson" instead of "Jacks" since both are existing values?)

Besides, "See all 51 results" of what? I just Tabbed into the field, and MC is assuming that this means I'm searching when I'm simply opening a field that already has a value, so I can see or edit the value. Maybe I want to fix a typo, or OFTEN I'm just trying to Tab down the fields to get to a lower field that I want to change -- but I can't do it this way anymore, Tab stops working for field-level navigation. In this version of MC I see no way to move through fields in the Tag window without using the mouse -- arrow keys do nothing to move among fields in the Tag window. Is there a new secret keycombo?


Editing in the grid/view has a similar problem of getting stuck and losing focus. For instance:

Position the cursor on a field such as Name. Press F2 to edit. No problem. Tab to the next column, and the next. Assuming they are NOT list-type fields, no problem.

But, get to a list-type column (such as Keywords) and the smooth process ends. The field opens with the Add sub-field selected. Below it is a list of the values already in the field. Tabbing moves between the Add field and the first value, in a loop. It's possible to exit this loop by pressing Enter, but focus seems to be lost -- no field is open in edit mode, yet until this column was reached, Tab would move column to column retaining edit mode. Pressing F2 again reopens the same field, back into the loop.

To get past this, to the NEXT column and back into edit mode, seems to require the mouse to hover over the desired column, then press F2.


There's no evident consistent keystrokes that moves among fields in edit mode, whether in the Tag window or in the view.

Again... In the "old" design, editing a list-type field column behaved differently only slightly. Arriving on it via Tab, the field would open, displaying the selected values and the entire list. Tab again would move into the list, where any number of values could be selected via Spacebar. Tab again would move out of this field to the next field. Very smooth, logical because Tab always did tab-type action, and no need for the mouse.


Also, someone mentioned that the suggestions/sublist should always show the field's acceptable values. But I've found MC does NOT reliably support acceptable values with stock fields, only with custom fields. This goes back a few months -- I added 5 capital letters as accepted values for my Tempo field, so I could type lowercase and always have it capitalized, and so I couldn't put in anything wrong. It worked: I could type "t" and always get "T", and I could type "x" and get nothing because it wasn't in the list. But after a while (minutes/hours), this behavior would vanish (the acceptable values would disappear from the field's library definition) and the Tempo field would revert to accepting anything (leading to typing mistakes by me if I didn't immediately notice). I reported this as a bug, but Matt said it's not possible to enforce acceptable values with a stock field (perhaps he can clarify, or correct what I'm saying...).


Matt mentioned in another thread that MC's new "suggestions" behavior is somewhat like Google Chrome, but that doesn't seem like an appropriate comparison -- a browser user who is typing in its address bar often is trying to find something, and perhaps not sure of the exact name/address, so partial searching and suggested results can be useful -- very useful. But in my use of MC, typing directly in field is not to search or match or get suggestions. My mission is to precisely enter known data. Anything that gets in the way, especially if it breaks the workflow, is a problem, not a solution.


Of course, it's wonderful that MC keeps gaining functionality. The problem is that it REPLACED long-standing and quite efficient editing behavior -- F2 or enter a field to edit, see a list and select one or more values, or type desired values, then move on -- via Tab.

All the new searching and sublist capability is given priority field-level behavior, but how often is searching for an existing value the primary action to take when entering a field in edit mode?

My vote: I think the new capabilities -- sublists and searching and manual list ordering -- are quite nice for some editing situations, but inappropriate for others. I suggest these new field-level features be invokable by the user, therefore activating only when desired (perhaps controllable by hotkey, right-click, Ctrl+something, configurable field/column/view behavior, or whatever). They should not be the primary field edit-mode behavior that requires extra steps to get past.

[rick.ca]

The obvious solution is to provide the new functionality as a separate field editing mode (another F key or Ctrl+F2 or something), not as the primary mode.

Anyone who wants to make use of these new features would have exactly the same objection as you if they were not integrated into their preferred work flow. I see no good reason to require a different editing mode just because an ordered list field is encountered. The auto suggestion feature may need to be tweaked, but it has to be superior to picking items from a list in just about any situation. And if it's not, the list is still available. The obvious solution is to restore consistent keyboard navigation so you can continue to edit the way you have been and make use of the new features when it's advantageous to do so.

[dcwebman]

2. If my library has "The" and "The Test", if I type "th" then "The" will be the first suggestion.
This is what I mean: For example, let's assume I already have an album called "A brand new day". Now I have this new album, called "A brand". In the old situation, when I typed "A brand" and hit the Enter-key the field was filled with that title. But now it's almost impossible to enter "A brand" because MC picks "A brand new day" when I hit the Enter-key. I'd say better would be: the Enter should finalize the new entry; if you'd want to pick the first suggestion you'd have to arrow-down once.

OK, here's the solution to the above problem that I and others have experienced. Now what you are typing is put at the bottom of the suggestion list. Simply put it at the top of the list. Then when you press Enter, it gets added. If you want a suggestion instead, then you down arrow to select it instead of doing it the other way around.

[Matt]

OK, here's the solution to the above problem that I and others have experienced. Now what you are typing is put at the bottom of the suggestion list. Simply put it at the top of the list. Then when you press Enter, it gets added. If you want a suggestion instead, then you down arrow to select it instead of doing it the other way around.

The old auto-complete also picked a suggestion over the substring you were typing.  It required a [Delete] to clear.

I think it's sort of critical that a suggestion system put a good suggestion above a substring.  Maybe if there are a lot of a suggestions, the substring could be first.

If you provided real-world examples where it's causing trouble for you, perhaps we could tune it.

[dcwebman]

The old auto-complete also picked a suggestion over the substring you were typing.  It required a [Delete] to clear.

I think it's sort of critical that a suggestion system put a good suggestion above a substring.  Maybe if there are a lot of a suggestions, the substring could be first.

If you provided real-world examples where it's causing trouble for you, perhaps we could tune it.

Without going back and installing an old version, I believe you saw the suggestion on the editing line and then could see that you had to hit Delete to delete the rest. Made sense.

OK, here's my real world example which is bothersome with background first. I'm trying to help my brother convert his Facebook Group into a Fan Page. There are over 1300 photos he wants copied to the Fan Page. There's no way to do it in Facebook so the only solution is to download each photo and then upload to the Fan Page, and then of course he wants them in the exact order they were before. I finally found a program to download them all but the upload was the next thing to solve. With MC's great ability to put photos in a playlist to organize, caption them, and upload to Facebook, that was the easy solution to use. I used version 130 over the weekend.

Unfortunately I had to go to each photo manually in Facebook and if there was a caption, I had to cut and paste to MC's photo. I wanted to include any tagging of people that was done in the final caption. So one photo caption could be "Party at the lake. In this photo: Joe Blow." and I copied and pasted that to the caption in MC. The next photo caption had no tagging so it was simply "Party at the lake" and I tried copying and pasting to the caption in MC.

Now we come to the exact problem described above. MC wants to put the previous longer caption in. Now back when I was editing these 1300 photos I didn't know I could press Escape to get rid of the suggestion then press Enter, so I was pasting and then pressing Enter since my entire edit line showed just what I pasted.

Since I didn't have the tag window pane widened all the way because I needed to organize photos & caption at the same time, I could not see what the final caption entered was after pressing Enter, so to me I saw "Party at the lake". Later I happened to look at a previous photo and with hovering discovered it had the long wrong caption. This must have been about 500 photos into the process and there was no way I was going back to see if the others were correct so I am sure there are some wrong ones and I'll have to apologize to him if anybody complains.

Now with the way MC works today if I press Enter, I get the suggestion added and then I can discover it added it wrongly. I either then have to press Backspace until I get back to what I wanted or Escape the whole thing, start over, and this time do the Escape + Enter, or select what I just typed in the suggestion list and press Enter + Enter. If what I was typing was the first item in the suggestion list, we're back to simply pressing just Enter.

[gappie]

If what I was typing was the first item in the suggestion list, we're back to simply pressing just Enter.

makes sense to me.
 
gab

[gappie]

I'm getting drop down list now always if I press F2 so I can't navigate with up/down when in edit mode. I'm was sure this didn't happen with this build earlier??? Things are not good right now. For example going through track numbers is nerve wrecking procedure currently.

E:
Okay, so now the procedure to edit e.g. track number is following
F2 --> 1 --> Enter --> down --> 2 --> Enter --> down ...
before it use to be:
F2 -->1 --> down --> 2 --> down

This is outside this discussion, so not to bring down the argument (which has been honoured anyway), but you do know about the 'fill track numbers form listorder' tool in mc (select the files you want to order, rightclick, library tools> etc). it is very handy in these cases.

 
gab

[MrC]

I just went through some mass tagging in Pane view.  I found that the recent changes made this a big challenge.

It used to be I could have a list of, say a CD and a ripped album, in track order.  I can then quickly copy/paste any given field from identical tracks by simple F2'ing a field, Ctrl-C, down arrow, Ctrl-V, etc.

Now the list will pop up periodically (and from a muscle memory UI point of view, randomly), so I have to take extra action to get out of that list so that down arrow just works.  With the recent changes, the down arrow changes the item I'm on to a subsequent item in a list, and if I don't notice it did this, not only will it change the current field when I leave this row, I'll end up pasting the wrong value into the next field after down arrow.

An additional problem is, as others have suggested, I want a substring of an auto-suggested item.  If I type "Take Five", auto-suggest might list "Take Five Minutes", so I delete all of " Minutes" to leave "Take Five".  Hit enter, and "Take Five Mniutes" is placed instead.

These changes makes Enter and Up/Down behave randomly from a muscle memory point of view.

[Gl3nn]

I'm coming to this late so pardon if my one reading of this thread makes me repeat some things already mentioned.

1)- When selecting a block of tunes to edit, I'd like to be able to move around easily without any interference from MC until I deliberately begin an edit/change.  When moving, I move vertically as much as horizontally and it's intuitive to me to use TAB, SHIFT-TAB and the ARROW keys to do so. 

I absolutely, positively *hate* fields that insist on popping-up a selection list/box when entering that field!  The first thing I turn off in Quicken is "Provide drop-down lists on field entry".  Maybe you should have an option like that?  There's another that says "Complete fields using previous entries".  I use that one but I can see where some would like to turn that off at times.  In any case, as far as MC is concerned, I would much prefer to NOT have a box open by its own volition when I'm scrolling in edit mode.  For instance, I could have an edit to do in the 1st and the 7th columns, and I just want to zip by the ones in between!

2)- Let's say I'm editing some fields in a block of 5 songs and have them all selected.  Let's say the one field looks like this:

{blank}
abcd
abcd
{blank}
efgh

I'm in the 1st row, over {blank} and I want to fill all the rows of that particular field with abcd.  I'd like to hit either CTRL-DOWN or click on the drop-down arrow and pick abcd.  Then I'd like to TAB out of it to the next field.  I don't want to hit ENTER and go out of edit mode.

One thing I've noticed in the past (in the example above) is that if the FIRST entry contained abcd, I could not re-select it in the drop-down list and have the other rows filled in with that value.  I would actually have to hit ENTER in that case.  This is not something new, it's been around a while.  Maybe it's by design.  But it's inconsistent.

That's all I've got time to type right now... I know this is small stuff compared to actually playing the music (), but a few options in how we edit would be most appreciated!

[glynor]

I haven't read through this entire thread in detail, but I used the new tagging suggestion system some yesterday, and I think I like it.

It does seem a little odd how it decides what suggestions to make, vs which ones to "hide" under the subselection thing.  But still, I think it was less clumsy and more intuitive than the old system.

[rick.ca]

But still, I think it was less clumsy and more intuitive than the old system.

Try editing a series of fields that include one or more list fields, or a list field for a series of records. I'm not sure which is the better characterization: "clumsy and non-intuitive" or "impossible."

[glynor]

You mean without touching the mouse?

I don't do this.  I can see it would be a pain if you did, I suppose.  The only List-Type Field I use heavily is Keywords, and even that I don't use very much (and when I do edit it, I edit it via the Panes usually).

[glynor]

Hmmm... I've played with the Tag AW some more, and I'm now not so sure about it.

I haven't really figured it out yet.  Maybe tomorrow.

[Listener]

I thoroughly dislike the new editing system.  Here are some of the reasons:

1. Introducing errors - I hand enter tag values for classical music CDs and downloads.  I am more likely to make a mistake because the new editing system did something I did not expect.  I don't want to fight MC and I don't want it to screw up what I enter.

2. Unintuitive behavior - With the old system, I could type "Cla" in the Genre tag in the Tag window and MC would auto-complete this value to be "Classical" based on existing Genre tag values.  I would then press the Tab key to go on the next Tab.  With the new editing system, I have to pick either "Cla" or "Classical" from a drop down list and then convince MC to move to the next Tab.  This breaks my rhythm, slows me down and requires attention to the process of data entry rather than the data itself.  In addition, the Tab key does not seem to move the focus to the next tag reliably with the new system.  Sometimes I can press Tab forever and focus remains on the field I have just entered.  I then have to move my hand to the mouse and click on the next field.

3. Extra Work - I get a drop down list when I don't need it or want it.  I then have to select what I typed or an auto-completion.  hand entering tag values requires a lot of effort.  Becoming efficient and reliable in doing that job has been very important in my use of MC.  I am not happy to see you arbitrarily making my job harder.

4. Unlearning and re-learning - I have learned to enter tag values quickly and with minimal errors.  Some of my methods are in my muscle memory.  With the new editing system, what I learned now causes errors.  Thanks JRiver.

5. Where's the documentation - I figured out enough of the way the old system worked to do what I wanted.  I don't immediately understand how the new system works and I don't see anything that explains it adequately.  (I read Matt's description.) I noticed that sometimes hitting the Tab key (twice) does not move the focus to the next tag field in the Tag edit window. Thanks, JRiver.

6. Distracting visual clutter - When the dropdown list appears unexpectedly, it is out of context for me.  It is very distracting even if I have a way to deal with the dropdown list.  I'm an experienced MC user and I find it distracting.  Imagine how a newcomer feels when stuff like this happens unexpectedly.

7. Hard to learn and hard to teach - For several years, I have put a lot of effort into helping other people get up to speed with JRiver MC on this forum and on other forums.  Many of those people find MC to be complex and unintuitive.  Many complain about the lack of documentation.  You aren't doing newcomers any favors by introducing even more complexity.  And you make it harder for me to explain MC to newcomers and prospects.

You haven't done me any favors with these changes.

There are some things that could be improved about the old editing system.  

- The auto-completion mechanism was too aggressive.  Perhaps  I could use one keystroke to tell MC to accept what I typed without auto-completion and a different keystroke to invoke auto-completion. No dropdown lists required or desired. If I want the dropdown list, I'll click on the arrows to see it. In the new system

- We needed a simple intuitive way to move to the next track when the focus was in the Tag window.  I found the different meanings of the up and down arrow keys in the Tag editing window and the track list to be a source of errors.

I'd suggest that you look for a way to keep the editing methods we have learned and refine them to be simpler, more regular and easier to learn.

Bill

[glynor]

It keeps "correcting" away my capitalization changes.  It is driving me batty.

Whatever system is devised, it should NEVER, EVER, EVER "override" what you've manually typed in when you hit Enter.  Accepting a "suggestion" always needs to be an overt act, not an automatic one.

[rick.ca]

I thoroughly dislike the new editing system.  Here are some of the reasons...

If...

1. Consistent keyboard navigation from field-to-field and from record-to-record (whether editing in the grid or in the tag window), and

2. The edit value to be used on <enter> was whatever had been typed in the edit box rather than the auto-suggestion,

...then what, if any, of these objections would remain?

From the way I edit, and from what many others are saying, it seems (1) is critical. But if that were fixed, it's difficult to understand why the auto-complete function could be much of an issue. I think (2) might be helpful only because it would be less likely the behaviour would "get in the way" of what the user is trying to do. But it can't be argued that is better than the way it is now, since it depends on the circumstances. If the default value is what is needed, then it's very helpful. If it's not, it only costs one extra keystroke. I don't believe anyone can claim it should work differently because the default value is never what they need.

Whatever system is devised, it should NEVER, EVER, EVER "override" what you've manually typed in when you hit Enter.  Accepting a "suggestion" always needs to be an overt act, not an automatic one.

But this is definitely something that needs fixing. I hate having to fight with software to enter what I want to enter. Maybe (2) is necessary, if that's what's necessary to avoid this problem.

[MarkCoutinho]

If...

1. Consistent keyboard navigation from field-to-field and from record-to-record (whether editing in the grid or in the tag window), and

2. The edit value to be used on <enter> was whatever had been typed in the edit box rather than the auto-suggestion,

...then what, if any, of these objections would remain?

Practically none! Thát would solve a lot. It's all about intuitive editing. The one thing I didn't say so far: I don't use a mouse during editing. For mouse-users, I guess, it doesn't matter whatsoever.
But especially number 2. would do a big trick.

[rick.ca]

For mouse-users, I guess, it doesn't matter whatsoever.

It's funny how that works. I much prefer a mouse, and would use it exclusively—if I could figure out how to type with it. But that just makes me more sensitive to a keyboard routine that's not simple, consistent and intuitive. I just don't have the skills to compensate for any awkwardness. I usually end up with one hand on the keyboard, and the other on the mouse. And that never works very well.

As a "mouse-user," I've always appreciated pane-tagging images. I find it interesting to discover that where I'm assigning some of a large number of nested keywords, using the keyboard with the auto-completion is much more efficient.

[lepa]

This is outside this discussion, so not to bring down the argument (which has been honoured anyway), but you do know about the 'fill track numbers form listorder' tool in mc (select the files you want to order, rightclick, library tools> etc). it is very handy in these cases.
 
gab

Of course. It was just an example. Thanks for the thought though.
This behavior also concern in some degree Season/Episode numbers. It use to be fast keyboard acrobatics but now there all kinds of "barriers" to check and confirm before tag is ready and focus is moved to next item.
I can understand the bling bling effect achieved by this feature but I just liked the fastness of the old system.

But let's wait and see and maybe in result of the discussion we'll get best of both worlds

[Benz_van_Heerwaarde]

The way it is now it's more than twice the number of 'key-hitting' compared to the old way. The dropdown lists are good, but the name you type in should be the one that's chosen when you hit Enter.
It should be even more great when that value is chosen when you hit the Tab-key too so you can continue to edit the next field.
And I've seen remarks about the down-key combined with copy/paste. I used to do this a lot, so it would be nice to undo this change too.
 
By the way: it's not possible anymore to change a capitalization in a name: probably a bug.

[MrC]

By the way: it's not possible anymore to change a capitalization in a name: probably a bug.

FYI: you can change it, but it is harder than before.  You have to use the arrow key to get to the bottom of the list, which is a blank entry.  Then, the Enter key will leave your changes as you entered them.

[glynor]

The way it is now it's more than twice the number of 'key-hitting' compared to the old way. The dropdown lists are good, but the name you type in should be the one that's chosen when you hit Enter.

I agree completely.  I actually DO really like the new smart suggestions drop-downs, which is MUCH smarter than the old system.  I just DO NOT like how it decides that it is "smarter than you" when you are manually typing something.  To choose one of the suggestions, you should have to hit Down Arrow and then enter (proactively choosing a suggestion, rather than the system preemptively choosing one instead of what you were manually typed).

If you select a field, type and hit enter, it should ALWAYS accept what you actually typed, not a suggestion.  This is how Google works, and it is what users expect.

[Matt]

If you select a field, type and hit enter, it should ALWAYS accept what you actually typed, not a suggestion.  This is how Google works, and it is what users expect.

That's not how Google Chrome works.  Or how Visual Assist (which saves me an hour of typing a day) works.  They both give you a good suggestion when you press enter, but offer a way to get exactly what you typed (like we do, save for the capitalization bug).

[glynor]

I use Google Chrome every day, and that's exactly how it works.  What do you mean that's not how it works?

If I type "yout" into the Address bar, the top suggestion is (of course) YouTube, but if I hit enter, it actually google searches "yout", not "youtube".  Same goes with in the actual Google Search field at Google.com.  If I type "chee" the top suggestion is "Cheesecake factory".  However, if I hit enter after typing "chee" it searches for "chee" not "cheesecake factory".  To accept the suggestion, I have to type "chee" + TAB + ENTER. In Chrome I need to type "chee" + DOWN + ENTER.  Those are both different in an important way.

Now, the new "on the fly" searching of Google.com DOES automatically use the top search suggestion, but that's different.  It changes as you type, and MOST IMPORTANTLY, if you hit ENTER, it uses what you TYPED, not the suggestion.  This is true in all browsers.  Perhaps you are using some sort of add-on that is changing the default behavior of Chrome.  I don't know, but that's how it works on ALL of my machines.

I don't know what Visual Assist is.  Ok, I see what it is now.

[MarkCoutinho]

Sorry to let you down on this one, Glynor, but Matt is right. I tried your suggestion (Youtube) in my Google Chrome. And when I type "yout" and hit enter it comes up with www.youtube.com. And I must say I love Chrome for that.
But although JR has translated this feature to MC it's still not the same and we (and more apparantly) agree on what you said yesterday: If you select a field, type and hit enter, it should ALWAYS accept what you actually typed, not a suggestion.
Because, Matt, the possibility (likeability) that you're about to enter an album of the same name you've already filled in is very, very small. As with Google Chrome the possibility that I visit a site that I visited earlier on is very likely.

Do you see the difference, Matt? And do you agree on that?

[MusicHawk]

Sorry to pick on Matt's words, but they illustrate The Great Divide in thinking about the recent changes:

...give you a good suggestion when you press enter, but offer a way to get exactly what you typed

Should MC give priority to exactly what the user types (or is already in the field), or give priority to what MC guesses is what the user really wants?

For me, when I'm editing, I'm editing. I know what I want the database to contain, I just need a straightforward, fast, consistent way to navigate, access, edit and exit every field. And repeat.

Any extra help by MC -- be it search/suggestions, auto-complete, capitalization, spell-checking, sub-lists, list ordering, etc -- should be something that can be invoked when desired (or not). It should not be forced, to then require extra steps to "get exactly what you typed". Getting what you type should be the normal, default result of navigating fields and records and typing/selecting, just as it used to be.

Even if Google Chrome's suggestions are very helpful in a browser when searching for unknown or fuzzy information on the web, it's not a suitable default for MC's role of managing a database of known, precise data.

To consider whether what Chrome does is appropriate for MC, perhaps we can ask users, what percentage of touches of a database field are to:
-- do partial typing to get data value suggestions, as in Chrome and Google in general
-- add/edit fully-known data, suggestions irrelevant
-- navigate across the field, no desire to change it (as happens when moving among fields in Tag action window or view column)


The other essential MC behavior is that the main key actions -- Tab, Arrows, Enter, Esc -- behave consistently across records, fields, and lists. Just like until a few weeks ago. My hunch is, if normal navigation and editing revert to prior behavior, to invoke the new capabilities will require different keys, which is perfect.

The evident controversy is not whether the new functionality is bad, just how it is invoked. It could be very cool to be in a field, typing or just thinking, and be able to press/click to get intelligent suggestions. Isn't there another Function key or key combo that isn't being used by MC -- maybe Shift+F2 or Alt+S or something?

[Matt]

I use Google Chrome every day, and that's exactly how it works.  What do you mean that's not how it works?

If I type "yout" into the Address bar, the top suggestion is (of course) YouTube, but if I hit enter, it actually google searches "yout", not "youtube".

I think you may be using an old version of Chrome.

Both 7.0.x and 8.0.552 use a suggestion on enter.  Y + Enter goes to YouTube.  J + Enter goes to JRiver.

They list what you actually type as the second suggestion, just like we are doing.

[Matt]

Because, Matt, the possibility (likeability) that you're about to enter an album of the same name you've already filled in is very, very small. As with Google Chrome the possibility that I visit a site that I visited earlier on is very likely.

Do you see the difference, Matt? And do you agree on that?

That is the key question.  If the suggestions are good, they should be the default.  If they're only maybe good, the user text should be the default.

My reading of this thread is that the suggestions are not good often enough to frustrate people.

So it's probably safest at this point to switch to the Firefox (and older Chrome) model of requiring down + enter to accept a suggestion.  It simplifies tab navigation and avoids what advanced users are objecting to.

[MarkCoutinho]

So it's probably safest at this point to switch to the Firefox (and older Chrome) model of requiring down + enter to accept a suggestion.  It simplifies tab navigation and avoids what advanced users are objecting to.

I say: one big cheer for Matt and his colleagues for listening to the users. I don't mean this sarcastically: I really do appreciate you not sticking to your own ideas.
I'm looking forward to the change(s)!

[MusicHawk]

Matt, thanks for considering the issues raised in this discussion.

Does using Down+Enter imply that the suggestions list will still always display? In my music library editing work that's mostly an obstacle, not an aide.

In a list-type field, what I want 99.9% of the time, especially for fields such as Keywords and Genre and Artist, is to see the existing full list. I know what it contains, so my task is simply to navigate to or jump to the desired value(s). I don't see how MC can help by suggesting anything in this context.

Even if MC suggests one of the values I want, many of my fields are list-type so it's a big problem if the suggestion list gets in the way of accessing the full list. I'm often selecting multiple values for the field -- always the case with Keywords, and with some of my list-type custom fields (Artists, Composers, Chart, etc). The suggestion sub-list list covers up what I want to see and select. So perhaps the suggestion/sublist mode should be controllable at the field level?

Even in cases where I'm putting in just a single long value, there are just a couple of instances in my large music library where a suggestion might save time. Perhaps it can suggest the same song (by another artist) that I'm typing. Or the same Artist name. But that already was the old behavior, and didn't get in the way.

To get MC editing back to the prior simple, consistent behavior, please consider HIDING the suggestions sublist unless the user requests this mode (Down+Enter or Shift+Down or Ctrl+S or Alt+I or anything that isn't normal field typing).

And/or, assuming suggestions/sublist is notably useful for specific purposes, perhaps allow the entire suggestion system to be enabled/disabled by field or view or library or MC-wide.

[Listener]

That is the key question.  If the suggestions are good, they should be the default.  If they're only maybe good, the user text should be the default.

My reading of this thread is that the suggestions are not good often enough to frustrate people.

So it's probably safest at this point to switch to the Firefox (and older Chrome) model of requiring down + enter to accept a suggestion.  It simplifies tab navigation and avoids what advanced users are objecting to.

I think that the question of alternatives is not simply about better or worse.  In some cases, I want what I typed and no more.  In other cases, I appreciate having MC offer an auto-completion choice.  For example,  if I type "Symphony No. 8" for a Schubert work, I am happy for MC to offer "Symphony No. 8 'Unfinished' " as a choice.  However, if I am filling  out tags for a Beethoven symphony, I do not want MC to add any text' "Symphony No. 8" is exactly what I want.  In that context, I am not expecting MC to do anything and it would be a distraction.

Several people have said that they often want to see the full list rather than just auto-completion suggestions.  I agree.  In the past, MC used to display the drop down list so that the position matched the letters typed so far.  In recent versions, this does not always work and the list is positioned at the beginning.

I think there are just limits for how much help MC should try to give users.  It is important to me to fill out tags reliably.  I don't want to fight MC when I know what I want to do.  I don't want to have to remember to undo what MC did without my permission. I don't want to be distracted by thinking about what keystrokes and mouse clicks I have to use to get the result I want.  

Matt, I'd suggest that you try ripping and hand tagging a dozen CDs yourself with old and new schemes to see things the way your users see them.

Bill

[glynor]

I think you may be using an old version of Chrome.

Both 7.0.x and 8.0.552 use a suggestion on enter.  Y + Enter goes to YouTube.  J + Enter goes to JRiver.

They list what you actually type as the second suggestion, just like we are doing.

I see what you're talking about now.  I don't really think it is fair to call my version of Chrome "old".

I am using the current non-beta released version of Chrome, which is 6.0.472.63.  That's the one you get if you go to http://www.google.com/chrome/ and download Google Chrome.  I suspect that this is what most people would call "chrome".  There are no updates available, and it works like I described.

The 7.0.x builds are beta (8.0.x is in the "alpha" Dev channel), and are certainly subject to change.  I haven't tried them.  You need to go out of your way to get them and try them.  By those standards, Firefox 3.6.10 is "old", since there are beta builds of 4.0 and the alpha trunk builds available.

[glynor]

That is the key question.  If the suggestions are good, they should be the default.  If they're only maybe good, the user text should be the default.

My reading of this thread is that the suggestions are not good often enough to frustrate people.

I'd say this is the crux of the issue.  I spent about 4 hours yesterday tagging a large number of new audio and video files.  I'd say that the suggestion matched what I wanted around 60% of the time.  The remainder of the time, it was either wrong, or counter-productive (the capitalization thing).

Google gets what I want right around 95% of the time.

That's a HUGE gap.  Google's search suggestion never gets in the way, or only VERY rarely.  Plus, Google has the benefit of showing the search results as you type (which provides "instant feedback" as you type on what it is doing).  But mostly, it is a search rather than a data-entry field.  Searching is a bit different of a thing.  If it "guessed" wrong, the chances are fair that the result I really wanted might be on the first page of results anyway, because of the way Google works.  If the suggestion is wrong in a data-entry field, it is Just Wrong.  A file is what it is.  Close to the "real" Album or Artist name isn't useful.

So it's probably safest at this point to switch to the Firefox (and older Chrome) model of requiring down + enter to accept a suggestion.  It simplifies tab navigation and avoids what advanced users are objecting to.

This would completely solve the problem for me, and the new suggestions system would be a great added feature (especially if the suggestions obeyed whatever case style was currently most prevalent in the database).

UPDATE: I should re-state again though... I don't agree completely with all of my "co-complainers" here.  I really like the new suggestions engine.  It does take a bit of getting used to if you are already "trained" to think the way MC used to do it, but overall, I think it is a dramatic improvement.  It just isn't quite good enough (and, I don't think, ever could be good enough) to warrant "overwriting" what the user types manually.  I think this is because the act of "tagging" is often done in concert with ingesting totally new content.  The suggestions are built based on what I already have in my database.  But I'm not typically re-ingesting things that are already there (like a search).  I'm adding NEW content, for which the suggestion engine has no "experience" to build a suggestion based on.  When I'm tagging a totally new album or TV series, the suggestion system is only going to be able to suggest something that is wrong (because there is no "correct" previous data for it to use to make the suggestion).  Even worse, if the file is already tagged "badly" (but almost-correct, as they come from Amazon or something) the suggestion is usually what the tag is already filled with!  The whole reason I'm tagging it manually is that I'm trying to change that tag.  It just doesn't work in a tagging context.

Perhaps the search behavior and the tagging behavior should be separate (though this might lead to user confusion).

[glynor]

I think this is because the act of "tagging" is often done in concert with ingesting totally new content.  The suggestions are built based on what I already have in my database.  But I'm not typically re-ingesting things that are already there (like a search).  I'm adding NEW content, for which the suggestion engine has no "experience" to build a suggestion based on.  When I'm tagging a totally new album or TV series, the suggestion system is only going to be able to suggest something that is wrong (because there is no "correct" previous data for it to use to make the suggestion).  Even worse, if the file is already tagged "badly" (but almost-correct, as they come from Amazon or something) the suggestion is usually what the tag is already filled with!  The whole reason I'm tagging it manually is that I'm trying to change that tag.  It just doesn't work in a tagging context.

I think an example might make this more clear (I'm having trouble explaining myself)...

Yesterday, I was going through my library and I realized that my copy of Pink Floyd's "The Piper At The Gates Of Dawn" was flaky (skips and pops from a scratched source disc from way before I used secure ripping modes).  Plus, it was at some crappy bitrate from back when a 60GB hard drive was big.

So, I went over to Amazon to buy a new copy for myself.  When I was there, I saw that they released a nice 40th Anniversary set that included a orignal Mono version of the album on disc 1, a set of "bonus tracks" on disc 2, and the fancy Remastered Stereo version of the album on disc 3.  This was sold for a good, cheap price on the MP3 store, so I bought it.  When the files downloaded from Amazon, they came into MC tagged with the Album names like this:

The Piper At The Gates Of Dawn 40th Anniversary Edition (Mono) [Disc 1]
The Piper At The Gates Of Dawn 40th Anniversary Edition (Extra Tracks) [Disc 2]
The Piper At The Gates Of Dawn 40th Anniversary Edition (Stereo Remastered) [Disc 3]

I didn't want all of that.  First off, I don't use brackets in my tagging at all.  More importantly, I wanted them just tagged as "The Piper At The Gates Of Dawn" and then I'd use the [Disc #] field to distinguish between the different discs.  Each of the tracks was tagged with (Stereo) or (Mono) anyway, so that data was redundant and I didn't want it in my Album tag.  But the suggestion engine kept re-entering the wrong stuff each time I changed something, reverting it back to what the last one was, or what the other discs were called, or whatever it decided was "best".

I think the difference is really in why you need a suggestion engine to enter text for you, and I think the perfect example is actually the Visual Assist example you gave earlier.

In the context of writing code in an IDE, a smart suggestion engine that auto-enters can be an enormous time saver (I agree).  However, the essential difference is this:  When you are writing code, you often have to type the same exact strings over and over and over and over.  Variable names and object hierarchies are used over and over.  Namespaces can be long.  In these scenarios, the suggestion engine is a HUGE time saver, and it prevents typo-bugs where you transpose letters in a variable name or something.

When I'm tagging files in MC, I hardly ever type the same exact text strings over and over and over again.  If I needed to "enter" a tag multiple times, I would have just selected ALL of the files and done it at once.  Instead, when I'm tagging files in MC, I need to often type things again and again that are similar, but subtly different (a song called "Down In It (Shred Version)" versus "Down In It (Singe Version)", for example).  In these cases, a suggestion engine will probably get it wrong, and a suggestion engine can't be expected to get it right.  It can still be helpful, though.  I can type "down i" and it'll find one of the Down In It versions, I can tap down to fill the field, and then tweak the text to make the version "blah" match what I want it to be.  With the new system, it doesn't quite work this way.  Not such a big deal when you're just typing three short little words, but when you're typing out "1972-08-27 - Old Renaissance Faire Grounds, Veneta OR (Braverman Dank Source)" (the name of one of my albums) and it gets auto-corrected to something else... It doesn't take long to get annoyed.

Similarly, in a search engine, I don't care about the specific text I'm entering, I only care about the result.  So, even if the search engine auto-enters suggestions for you, it doesn't matter much if the result you want is in the results page.  If not, you have to "try again" anyway, and it is CLEAR that you got the wrong result, because you didn't find what you were looking for.

When I'm tagging in MC, it is the data I'm entering that matters, not a results list generated by the data I'm entering.  If I'm trying to type "halo 14 - the fragile" and it auto-corrects it to "Halo 04 - Sin" (because that is the top result in my system right now if you just type "halo"), you might not notice and end up with bad data in the library.  Whereas with Google, it is plainly obvious that you got a bad result, in MC it just accepts and moves on.  If you're going quickly, you might not see that the wrong result got entered.