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[JimH]

[this is worth a new thread -- Zevele was talking about movies in another thread, at 2:00AM in Israel -- and this is what he said ]

Just heard a big explosion right now.If a bomb near a disco,look like we will have many casualties
I mean big explosion at almost 2 am are not part of regular sounds

[KingSparta]

they should have taken the compound... completely

[zevele1]

20 to 3 now
Nothing on radio,TV or internet
But since the explosion i can hear ambulances
Can be a gaz bottle or tanker truck who had a problem,and not a bomb

I do not think it is a bomb,they will speak about it on radio
Anyway i am going to sleep,no matter what is it,nothing i can do

[sekim]

You know, I just don't watch the news anymore because of the constant flow of HATE that makes headlines. Go ahead and rip me for this. But I'd just as soon grab a cocktail and watch the storm that is now developing, than watch anymore stupidity from the blackbox in the livingroom.

Do I want to distance myself from this? Oh yes. I find it unfathomable that people could hate so much based on RELIGION. The only thing I truly believe in anymore is myself and my wonderful family. I don't need anymore. And I sure as **** don't want anymore.

Sorry, had to vent a little. Please feel free to axe this if it is anywhere near as offensive as the tripe that is broadcasted into my sanctuary every night.

[Harry|PLS|The|PLS|Hipster]

Nothing on www.haaretzdaily.com. Hopefully something relatively innocent. Does feel like the world is slipping back into the Dark Ages.

HTH

[JimH]

No.  Some of the world has gone crazy.  We make our own light here.

Machinehead, you're just voicing what many have chosen as a protective layer.  You have to do it for both your family, and yourself.  We all do in some way.

Sleep, Zevele.  Dream of music.  Dream of your attic in France.  Dream of peace.

[Charlemagne 8]

Sometimes I hate this place. But it's the only world we have right now so all we can do is take it.

[Mysticeti]

Interesting comment about the Dark Ages, HtH.

Just yesterday I was wondering if *on average* the human race is any smarter and/or more civilized than it was, oh, say 100 years ago?  Has civilation crested and now on a downward spiral or are we just on plateau, stalled for the time being?

It's easy to point to the various advances technological and medical advances but when it comes to the humanity itself, I sometimes have my doubts.

[Callithumpian]

Classical literature like that of Keats, Shelley, Wordsworth, Homer, Shakespeare etc remains popular because it remains relevant.
That relevance stems from the fact they deal with human inter-relationship.
Advancing technology can cloud the issues, but to the keen eye it highlights the fundamental truth - that the more things change the more they remain the same.

[Severian]

What do you think would happen if they just leveled the compound with his sorry self in it? Would things really get any worse at this point?

[Callithumpian]

Escalation of military activity will result in escalation of terrorism in response.
How long before we grasp that simple lesson?

[Scronch]

Yes, let's escalate hugs.  Find them and give them big hugs.
And hug some trees.  And some spotted owls.

"You can't handle the truth."

[swilburn]

From what I've saw and read, the terrorism will continue (and maybe ratchet up a notch or two) regardless of what action is or is not taken.  So, I say take him (Arafat) out.  He is obviously not helping, nor interested in helping, stop the terrorism.

[Chico]

As long as there are fanatics and radicals that can influence others with with their thwarted idea of religion, there will be situations like this throughout the world.  It is a pity that these extremist use religion to justify their morbid acts.  I resent the narrowmindedness of people who don't respect the rights of others to believe in whatever God they choose.  The real sad thing is that, for the most part, the waring parties believe in the same god!  As far as the situation in Israel, how do you deal with the Palistinian leader who was once directly involved with terrorist?  Israel has given him every chance to stop the terrorist attacks against them, but he obviousely can't stop it.  I'm not sure I agree with the "An eye for an eye" attitude, but I don't know what other course of action Israel can take.
Just my opinion...

Chico

[zevele1]

Sorry about this mess
Was not a bomb,or let say was not a bomb in the middle of people
Nothing on radio about it,not even about a domestic accident
Near me there is a kiosk-a place selling cigarets,newspaper,candy,drinks..-Some of them stay open over night at the end of the week.The women heard and the explotion and ambulances,as i did

Was something,we may know in few days,or never

Here 2 things i give you to think about

The last attack -against a bus- this week
-The flpp something claimed responsability for it since his headquaters in damacus
He is one of the 10 terror organisations with headquaters in damacus-syria

Do not start to post'of cause syria is a rogue country,who support terrorism and so one'
Can i ask you to show respect to a country who since few days is "President of the Security Council of the United Nations"
If you think i am under substances,just search on the web
Now if you tell me such a thing is normal,i would like you to explain me this,cause i just cannot understand.
One day we will bomb them,this is sure,and we will be the rogue country....
Can you tell me about the Golf war if we did not destroy the french built nuclear plan in Irak few years before the invasion of Kowiet

But many of your countrys just do not want to understand
In no time you will have suicide bombers in all of your countrys.Suicide bombings are becoming 'a standart way of action'
First you will get that from arabs,but with time you will get it from ultra christians as well.Suicide bombing will be an acceptable form of action for any ultra religious group
Sure,many countrys will get that they deserve.At political level i mean.You cannot say that people like us on this and other forums deserve to be kill
Since years Israel never stop to say you are playing with fire,to say that they finance themself from Europe,US,].

But,as you know,we are just a bunch of lunatics paranoids....Until one morning is september 11th
France best friend of ayatolla komeiny.helping him to get the power
France best friend of Irak ,building them a nuclear plan
US just starting now to outlaw 'charities' recolting hudge money for hamas,jihad
I am sorry to say that now you start to pay for all of it,and you will pay for long

If 'times of darkness' is here,it is not only terrorists who bring it,most of the 'white christians countrys' built the fondations of it

And ,of cause and as always,people will suffer,not the politicals who have full responsability

Callithumpian,you forgot Faust on your list
And let me tell you something; THERE IS NOT SIMPLE LESSON TO BE LEARN

We had the biger numbers of bombs when Rabin was prime minister.Running to peace at any price,not sending the army in jenin

There is something you just cannot understand-as i did not understand when still in france-
The mentality of the other side.If you do not reply,this do not mean you are wise,for them you are weak,and they will stike you more

Beside this all the time we been in jenine,naplous,ramalla,we did not have any attack
And it make us feel good to see jenin transformed in kind of archeologic park

Since few weeks they try to make an HUDGE terrorist attack
One was eluded by our services:a 3 tons bomb in a truck-Oklaoma bomb was 'only' 2 tons
So you can imagine
One they did not succes:to blow up the place with carburants and gas in the north of Tel-Aviv.In this case you have a one kilometer wide circle 'of death'.No one would survive in this circle.And this only for death,more than this kilometer ,thousand and thousand wounded.They say that we would speak about thousand and thousand deads if they had succes
And more is on his way
So?Because of Sharon as many like to say?
Because of settlements? NO

Because if there is an HUDGE attack,we will react.And you can imagine how we will react if we had thousand deads
This will make a big mess at international level,a big mess at arabs countrys levels
And Bush junior will not be able to built a broad coalition to attack irak
So i may be blow up with few others because of the madness os saddam hussien and the mistakes of Bush senior
As you can see a very very nice thing to think about
Concerning arafat,there is no way to deal,to speak,to reach an agrement with him.Even arab leaders say so
We may just expell him,i wish from the deep of my heart that we will kill him
And by the way HTH,you know what?Sharon is one of the best prime minister we had since years
All the problems are not because of him.But in such a time we are lucky to have him
Not only my opinion,he will get more than 77% if elections next week
And you know what i even did not vote for him

[Cmagic]

"We must learn to live together as brothers or perish together as fools."
-Martin Luther King, Jr.

[Harry|PLS|The|PLS|Hipster]

CMagic/Callithumpian:

Agree with your sentiments entirely. OTOH, what do you do if you're in Z's position? Is it unfair for him to conclude that he and other Israelis are dealing with an implacable enemy who would deny them the right to national existence? What did the 8-9 years following Oslo bring? Was there any reduction in the anti-Israeli and anti-Semitic rhetoric in the Arab/Palestinian press, schools or mosques? I'm pretty sure that the choice of cyanide gas for the Passover attack wasn't a mere coincidence. If you're Jewish, it has an unpleasant historical resonance, not at al lost on the perps.

I don't share Z's admiration for Sharon. He's got a lot to answer for in this mess. But I have enough survivalist instinct to admit that it helps to have a brute on your side if the other guys are pointing a gun at your forehead. The Gandhi-King approach works only if your enemy's behavior runs against its professed principles, and the enemy's society is forced to face that dichotomy and adjust its behavior accordingly. If they don't have any scruples about sending you to a better world, then following that course is like the sheep opening the slaughter-house door to let themselves in.

Hobbes had a point - life is nasty, brutish and short.

HTH

[Cmagic]

I understand Zev's position perfectly well and I might have the same if in the same situation.

Fools we are as men, regardless of our religion, political opinions or ethnical origin.
The most evenly shared character among people on this planet is probably stupidity.
And the bad thing is that you only need, say 1 percent, of stupid people to trigger
the chaos when you need more than 50 percent of sensible people to build a brotherood.
Keys to the foolishness of people are many: ignorance, poverty, hunger, desperation....

But... the topic is tough, folks, far from our usual considerations on MJ and digital music
and my skill in expressing sensible feelings in english is near the edge of my knowledge.

peace / shalom to you all.

c.

[zevele1]

HTH

I do not have admiration for Sharon.If yes i would have vote for him at the last elections

He has a lot to answer?His main problem is what he was elected prime minister.....In a democratic country with democratics elections

I can understand arab countrys been not so happy to see him prime minister
A little less than some countrys in Europe,with of cause france as a leader,started to make noise from the day he was elected
france had a facist winner at elections and one of the most stupid politicien on earth
as president
We let them alone as far as i can see
Still under Barak time was a meeting in paris.An agrement was reach,to the point that we saw on all tvs the pictures of the place where arafat and Barak will sign the agreement
And,arafat said at the very last minute that he will not sign
Few days latter he started the 'new antifada'The one running to this day with thousands killed
Because chirac said to him not to sign
I just wonder who have the more blood on his hands.....
Of cause it is easy to say that the 'new antifada'started because Sharon was on the temple mount
This place is according to our laws a part of Israel.Anyone is free to go there ,as in a coffee shop in Tel-Aviv.Me,my friend,Sharon.This was not the raison,what did chirac was the reason

Let me tell you one thing:Sharon is not -as you say-a brute
He has more politic understanding than many other leaders
He is pragmatic to a point you cannot imagine

If not Sharon anymore next week,i would like to know who the next scarecrow

I understand that most of you cannot understand the problem here
I was like you when still in france
But there is something you do not know-at least for those not being in Vietnam-:
to have an enemy .Not a virtual one but a real one that you can see and that just want to kill you ,no matter what you do
I do not have a real problem with it.But let me alone if i kill him,his wife and kids

I would like to see you with your wife and kids being assaulted by a gang.Rapping them,beating you and on they way to kill some of you
I will give you to weapons:a gun and a book with citations from Ghandi,Luther Kind and others
Do you want to bet about the weapon you will use ?
Nothing to be happy ,proud about,yes is true,but give me a solution
I mean not to give me a solution to me ,us here-we can deal and we will deal-.To give a solution to a situation that will be your situation in a vey near future

Sure you think i am out of my mind.
Just print this post.Just to say 'he was right' in few months,years
But much before than few years,of it i am sure

Beside this we have the first day of real hot weather today,and i had a very nice rock evening yesterday evening

Have a nice week-end
shabbath salom

[JimH]

Cmagic,
Well said in English.  

> ignorance, poverty, hunger, desperation....

I nearly posted this list an hour ago:

Too many people, too much poverty, too little education, and too much religion.  The conditions create a "powder keg" waiting for some fool with a match.  All it takes is an insecure person to lead it.

[zevele1]

Cmagic
T'as raison
passes un bon week end, pardon,fin de semaine

[Cmagic]

Thanks Jim,

Bonne fin de semaine mon bon Yonatan et surtout bon courage !

If the world could be like MJ interact........

[Oogi]

Shabat shalom

Cmagic

>>If the world could be like MJ interact........

Well this should be in the Wish List..

And you forgot Ego on the list.

There will always be bad, alway,

But needs to be good enough to balance.

We are all responsible to our fate, Good or Bad.

[zevele1]

Jim
Yes,but not only
You have to deal with people having a thinking miles away from your thinking

Many many many years before i had be to naplous,metting people
As a french-i was still living in france-and did not say that i was jewish
At the home of a doctor we spoke about the young childrens taking part in the antifada
I said that there is a danger that they will be hurt,or even kill
Here is the answer from a doctor
I have seven .If one or two killed ,it is ok
If more,i will make new ones showing his wife like you may show your best cow
This one had education,money and food

Of cause religion is the problem
But any religion was tailored to suit the mind of the people she wants to recrut

Coran was tailored for arab minds.new testament was tailored for europeens starting to evoluate
Thora was tailored for some not so sophisticated tribes living in Judea and Samaria
They where tailored for people having complete different ways of thinking

Today i read from an american magazine-The Atlantic' a paper about pakistan ready to use nuclear as easy as we open a can of beer
And the autor says that from all the people he spoke with-politics,army,intelectuals- he understood something he cannot understand

They see a nuclear war with few millions killed,towns destoyed as a kind of new start.
First steep to a kind of aquarium age
And they do not see nuclear weepons as we see it.Because of it they will use it

Now,tell me ,can you deal with a kind of messianic Enola Gay?Or you just shake on your chair?

[Chico]

9/11 was a big wake-up call for us.  We can no longer sit in our Lazy Boys and say "what a shame they are having problems over seas."  The problem has hit our shores in a big way, and are trying to adjust accordingly.  Our main advantage in our location relative to the threats.  Our enemy is not bordering our country though he is trying to infiltrate it.  I feel for those in Zevele's situation.  Where we have sat around, fat, dumb, and happy for so many years, those in warring counrties have always had to keep one eye over their shoulder.  I know that a lot of foreigners resent the US throwing it's might around, but someone has to be there to slap the terrorists around a little, just to keep them with an eye over their shoulders.
If giving everyone a huge hug would end all the killing, I would be the first to hug Osama bin Laden.  But who are we kidding.  Love doesn't nessesarily breed love if some are so bent on killing.

[lise]

I have not much to add to what has already been said here, except for one word of caution (ok, it turns out it's way more than one word!).  I think it may be a bit too easy to shift blame for "stupidity" to specific causes as has been done here.  I think it would be wiser to admit that we are ALL subject to such "stupidity".  In fact, since people very rarely consider themselves in the "stupidity" camp, I would rather say that it is the baser aspects of human nature, which we ALL share, that cause much of the violence.  I think it is very important that we realize that we are all, each and every one of us, capable of the kind of violence we are attributing to the "stupid".  There is a danger in limiting to a few causes the kind of violence we are talking about; it makes too many of us confident in the fact that we would never engage in such violence (because we aren't poor, or uneducated, or religions, or enter any "cause" of violence here.)  I think this is part of Zevele's point:  we aren't the ones faced with what he sees; if we were, we, too, would be much more prone to those feelings that can inspire hatred.  I mention what comes next, not to bring up an easy target, but rather because it shook me a little and made me think of what I am capable of:  In a discussion of the horrors of WWII, a friend turned to me and asked:  Why are you so sure you wouldn't have been a member of the Nazi party?  What is it about your character that is so different than that of all Germans who embraced a political party, especially in its beginnings?  That shook me.  Our intuition is always to immediately think that there is no way in hell we would have taken part.  That reaction is just that--a reaction.  I think if we were honest with ourselves, we would have to admit that we don't know, or we do, but don't like the answer.  

Peace doesn't come easy.  It doesn't begin once thousands of people march down a street.  It doesn't begin as a movement.  It begins when an individual stands up to and sits in the front of a bus; or when an individual faces down a gun.  Then another does it.  Then a movement begins.  Then it becomes more difficult to stifle a whole lot of people.  That's why those individuals are so few and far between; because when faced with danger or hatred or violence, few of us would be willing to take a stand.  Very few of us.  Oh, many of us like to think we would.  We like to think we would be "huggers" as Scronch put it--the armchair peace lovers. But put us in Palestine and see our family killed, or put us in Israel and see our friends get bombed, and see just how many of us want peace instead of retaliation.  But let's just not kid ourselves about one thing; retaliation means contributing to violence: and we don't have to be "stupid" to do that.

[AlonsoN]

Dennis Miller's rant on the Middle East crisis:

"A brief overview of the situation is always valuable, so as a
service to all Americans who still don't get it, I now offer you the
story of the Middle East in just a few paragraphs, which is all you
really need.

Don't thank me. I'm a giver. Here we go:

The Palestinians want their own country. There's just one thing about
that:  There are no Palestinians. It's a made up word.

Israel was called Palestine for two thousand years.
Like "Wiccan," "Palestinian" sounds ancient but is really a modern
invention.

Before the Israelis won the land in war, Gaza was owned by Egypt, and
there were no "Palestinians" then, and the West Bank was owned by
Jordan, and there were no "Palestinians" then. As soon as the Jews
took over and started growing oranges as big as basketballs, what do
you know, say hello to the "Palestinians," weeping for their deep
bond with their lost "land" and "nation."

So for the sake of honesty, let's not use the word "Palestinian" any
more to describe these delightful folks, who dance for joy at our
deaths until someone points out they're being taped. Instead, let's
call them what they are: "Other Arabs Who Rather Than Accomplish
Anything In Life Would Rather Wrap Themselves In The Seductive
Melodrama Of Eternal Struggle And Death." I know that's a bit
unwieldy to expect to see on CNN.

How about this, then:  "Adjacent Jew-Haters."

Okay, so the Adjacent Jew-Haters want their own country. Oops, just
one more thing. No, they don't. They could've had their own country
any time in the last thirty years, especially two years ago at Camp
David. But if you have your own country, you have to have traffic
lights and garbage trucks and Chambers of Commerce, and, worse, you
actually have to figure out some way to make a living. That's no fun.
No, they want what all the other Jew-Haters in the region want:
Israel.

They also want a big pile of dead Jews, of course -- that's where the
real fun is -- but mostly they want Israel. Why?

For one thing, trying to destroy  Israel -- or "The Zionist Entity"
as their textbooks call it -- for the last fifty years has allowed
the rulers of Arab countries to divert the attention of their own
people away from the fact that they're the blue-ribbon most
illiterate, poorest, and tribally backward on G-d's Earth, and if
you've ever been around G-d's Earth, you know that's really saying
something.

It makes me roll my eyes every time one of our pundits waxes poetic
about the great history and culture of the Muslim Mideast.

Unless I'm missing something, the Arabs haven't given anything to the
world since Algebra, and, by the way, thanks a hell of a lot for that
one.

Chew this around and spit it out: Five hundred million Arabs; five
million Jews. Think of all the Arab countries as a football field,
and Israel as a pack of matches sitting in the middle of it. And now
these same folks swear that if Israel gives them half of that pack of
matches, everyone will be pals. Really? Wow, what neat news.  Hey,
but what about the string of wars to obliterate the tiny country and
the constant din of rabid blood oaths to drive every Jew into the sea?

Oh, that? We were just kidding.

My friend Kevin Rooney made a gorgeous point the other day: Just
reverse the numbers. Imagine five hundred million Jews and five
million Arabs. I was stunned at the simple brilliance of it.

Can anyone picture the Jews strapping belts of razor blades and
dynamite to themselves? Of course not. Or marshalling every fiber and
force at their disposal for generations to drive a tiny Arab state
into the sea?

Nonsense.

Or dancing for joy at the murder of innocents? Impossible.

Or spreading and believing horrible lies about the Arabs baking their
bread with the blood of children?    Disgusting.

No, as you know, left to themselves in a world of peace, the worst
Jews would ever do to people is debate them to death.

Mr. Bush, G-d bless him, is walking a tightrope. I understand that
with vital operations coming up against Iraq and others, it's in our
interest, as Americans, to try to stabilize our Arab allies as much
as possible, and, after all, that can't be much harder than
stabilizing a roomful of supermodels who've just had their drugs
taken away.

However, in any big-picture strategy, there's always a danger of
losing moral weight. We've already lost some. After September 11 our
president told us and the world he was going to root out all
terrorists and the countries that supported them. Beautiful.

Then the Israelis, after months and months of having the equivalent
of an Oklahoma City every week (and then every day) start to do the
same thing we did, and we tell them to show restraint.

If America were being attacked with an Oklahoma City every day, we
would all very shortly be screaming for the administration to just be
done with it and kill everything south of the Mediterranean and east
of the Jordan.

[Ilmar]

I have read and listened to a great deal of truth here. Alas, even opposing views can based on fundamental truth. Religious intolerance is a cheap and easy means for politicians to win support and secure their power.

I talk with may Israelis here and the situation in the middle east is much more complicated than journalists and pundits portray. I honestly say I don't know who is right or how it can be resolved. One thing for sure, murder is wrong, whether though state sponsorship or religious sponsorship, and both sides have clocked up many many wrongs over the years.

Indians and Pakistanis sitting at home, who listen to their leaders announce that they are prepared to use nuclear weapons, and still support them, believing that if they are casualties it is for their God's purpose. Such resignation would not be tolerated by many western countries. The leaders would be out, deservedly so, for the sick **!!@!** that they are.

The USA is not immune from fundamentalist religious fervour. Many politicians in the South have supported and passed laws which prohibit some science subjects in schools which may call into question the biblical version of creation. Suppression of education is the first step down a long slippery road.

I could go on, but I get boring, even to me.

Ilmar

[Severian]

Alonso, where'd you get that? Is there more where that came from?

[swilburn]

Lisa said:
-But let's just not kid ourselves about one thing; retaliation means contributing to violence.

Whereas, failing to retaliate or take any action tells the terrorist that you are weak and therefore an easy target.

SamW

[zevele1]

Lise
There is a book in french from Boudard[?] les combattants du petit matin
Not sure about the name -Cmagic may help

It is the storie of part of his life
At a very young age him and some friends start to help patriotes against nazis
And he says this
The 2 most unfriendly boys in the class being members of the youngs french facist party the only choice was to be a patriot
But if  this 2 boys patriots,we may had go to the facist party

Such a small stupid thing when you are 14 years old ,and you are on one or the other side of the fence

Concerning hate ,it is not the main feeling in israelis people
Of cause some people have hate,but not the majority.And because of it we are stronger than them
Most of the people are like me :indifference
If they have money,food,sex,partys and fun,we just don't care
If they do not have money,starve to death we just don't care as well

The bigger problem is to deal with barbarity using only our  education,'enlightenment' and values.Barbarity is not only hamas,can be gangs,skinheads,nazi and so on
To use only democratic tools to combat barbarity

I think about it since years and years.Since my trip to Auschicht when i was around 25 years old .And i am not sure of the answer
From time to time i have the very stong feeling that you have to be more barbarian than the barbarians, just the time to destroy them.
It can be ok as far as you 'reverse to your previous state'
But can we be sure of it?That we always be back and not stay at the barbarian level?

[AlonsoN]

Severian- It came in an email, attributed to Dennis Miller.  Could be, sounds like him.  Also it rings true.  Especialy that bit about what if the numbers were reversed and there will 500 million Jews and 5 million Arabs.

[Gatobrit]

I subscribe to "Brainy Quote" and they send along a random quote every day. Today's is...

'We live in the midst of alarms; anxiety beclouds the future; we expect some new disaster with each newspaper we read.'
- Abraham Lincoln

I guess it's true today as it was 150 or so years ago.

JimH >> We make our own light here.

I agree. A friend once said to me that in a time of darkness you can do nothing more than to be a lighthouse. Keep the light going and people will eventually find their way, maybe not to you but some place they can be their own lighthouse.

[Mysticeti]

Point your newsreader at soc.culture.israel to get a feel for just how implacable the situation is.  There are nuggets of useful and insiteful information buried amongst huge volumes of vitriolic rhetoric.  Good luck finding them.

Lise:
> [Peace] begins when an individual stands up to and sits in the front of a bus;
> or when an individual faces down a gun.

The image of the Chinese citizen standing in front of a column of tanks in Tiananmen Square comes to mind:
http://asia.cnn.com/video/world/2001/06/01/tank.html
Sadly, as soon as a Palistinian is suspected of "resisting" (cooperating with the Isrialis) they're killed and put on display.

AlonsoN, I did a search for "Adjacent Jew-hater".  The text you posted isn't attributable to Dennis Miller.
It appears to be Larry Miller:
http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/001/161yaihr.asp

llmar
> The USA is not immune from fundamentalist religious fervour.

True enough.  It wasn't that long ago that the headlines about bombings, anthrax mailings, and shootings where all about abortion clinics and the people who worked at them.

I think most people would agree that the US' dependence on oil has too strong an influence on our Middle East policy.  One would hope that once this dependence is broken the US would be more apt to do "the right thing" (whatever that may be) versus "whatever keeps the oil flowing".  

Lately I've seen numerous articles on alternative energy (e.g. hydrogen fuel cells), hybrid cars, and the possibility that oil reserves may be tapped out in the comming decades.  Running our of oil is something we should probably welcome and prepare for rather than fret about.  Drilling in extreme locations doesn't seem like the right answer to me.

[Oogi]

A line from a greate movie: "The army is here to preserve democracy, Not to practice it".

And we don't need to be barbarian to use it, Defense is Necessity to our survival.

And aboute hate:

It's not A hate what we have here in israel, It's a total disagreement, and thoughtlessness, impatience (more

then 20 dead on the road), no one cares aboute others.

The strong left wants to kill'm all, and the strong right wants to kiss'm all, no one listens to the other.

Yhe arabs want us dead, and we can't fight them, with war and not with peace.

We, the israely, are just like two countries in a war with it self.

[Riff]

Just in response to the stuff about there not being such thing as Palestinians.  A little research proves that wrong.  Overall, I felt that the entire article about that was pretty much nonsense.  Israel is not the innocent party in this mess.  It's hard to say which side is more wrong, but placing the blame on one side completely is biased and unfair.

http://electronicintifada.net/historicalmyths/nosuchthing.html

[Harry the Hipster]

Access Riff's link and click through to "About Us", and you'll find the following:

"The Electronic Intifada project (EI) is an online publication produced by a small network of pro-Palestinian activists with a history of Internet and media activism..."

If the implicit message is that the EI site is unbiased and fair, draw your own conclusions.

Besides, what's the point? Everyone has a legitimate beef, and somehow they have to get to the point of recognizing they will never get 100% of what they want. That's nothing unusual. What so horribly complicates this situation is the pathological demonization that has taken hold, and that makes dialogue immpossible, and here I'm afraid the Arab world bears a disproportionate responsibility, though Israel is hardly blame-free.

Alfonso is right. There are incredible libels circulating in the Arab world about what Israelis (and Jews in general) do. Take a look at the texts that are used in the mosques and the religious schools. Take a look at The Protocols of The Elders of Zion, that was generated in 1905 by the Russian Secret Police but freely on sale throughout the Arab world. Take a look at the slanderous message that Assad the younger delivered when the Pope came for his visit to Syria. And think about the notion that the Mossad actually destroyed the WTC, and alerted all Jewish occupants to stay  home on 9-11. This isn't normal political emnity, if there is any such thing, its an incitement to something far worse. We're not talking the Falkland Islands here.

So, don't be surprised if people traditionally in the Israeli peace wing have given up and are standing behind a vigorous and vigilant response. Its rather tough to make nice with folks who implicitly deny your right to exist and consider you to be the Devil's spawn. And yes, Israel will have to come to grips with Palestinian statehood, but frankly they'd be nuts to do it until someone responsible shows enough leadership to rein in what's happening now...and that's not Arafat.

If you want to read an intelligent and well-researched history of the evolution of the Middle East (and not more political rhetoric), go to David Fromkin's A Peace To End All Peace, a recounting of what happened when the Ottoman Empire dissolved during and after WWI.

HTH

[zevele1]

Israel is not blame free of cause
And most people here are ready for a palestinien state.But not under pressure,not at any price
In a typical Zevele way as JimH may say,let me tell you that i am strongly in favor of a state
Because i am sure that bombs will not stop,even after they have a state
In this case we will find ourself in a much simple situation.
The state near you attacks us,so we declare war.And the columns of refugees can be sure that they never ever will come back
Gaza was part of the deal with Egypt at camp David.But Egypt refused to take Gaza back
To happy to get rid of it and his people

Do you remember arafat's wife telling to Ilary Clinton in front of camera that Israel had injected Aids to babys,had poisoning water and other funny things.Lise sorry but i have to use 'stupidity'

The problem is not if there is such thing as palestiniens or palestine
They are here and they need a place to be
We did the mistake not to expell them just after the 6 days war, now we have to deal with
The problem his on they side.Since the first proposition they had in 1948 and throught all the oportunities they had since,everyday passing,every bombing more means they will get less.Maybe it is not stupidity,but in this case tell me what it is
Most of us just want this:them to have a place to be,to run as they want.And not to see them,not to care about them
And if they bomb us even only one time .....

[JaredH]

Well im back after a 2 week jaunt on the eastern shore of MD and apparently back at just the right time. Now what im about to say could quite possibly cause many people to hate me but that wont surprise me with all the hate going around lately. Everyone is concentrating on Israel and the battle between Sharon and Arafat, but please, everyone tell me, everyone sits and points fingers at whose terrorist and whose not and whose fighting for what. But look at the US. Ever since Sept 11th and long before that if youre observant, the US has been using nothing short of terrorist tactics to strong arm its way into countries and has bullied and "politically" blackmailed other UN members into voting in favor of whatever it was the US wanted at the time. I mean just look at the incident in the Netherlands where the US Bush admin. basically bullied the UN into firing the director of the Organization for the Prevention of Chemical Weapons. The UN was afraid of rumors that if they didnt fire Director Bustani that the US would have withdrew crucial funding. Now dont get me wrong here, im as american as apple pie, the the US is getting way too big for its britches and its biggest target in the war against terrorism should be itself.

[sekim]

Jared,

So pulling the teet away is an act of terrorism from the US?

[Harry the Hipster]

Jared:

I'm puzzled by yr use of language. Per Merriam's on-line dictionary, terror means "violence (as bombing) committed by groups in order to intimidate a population or government into granting their demands ". It distinctly does not mean use of economic or persuasive power to impose your will on other governments.

You may not like aspects of our policy (I don't, see Kyoto), but that doesn't justify corrupting the mother tongue in order to establish moral equivalency between quite disparate phenomena. Unfortunately, far too widespread these days.

HTH

[JaredH]

Ok, ill say you are right, i was being rather loose with my meaning of the word terrorism. I apologize for tinkering with the english language there. But youre are also right about not agreeing with the way the US handles things, At first i was anti Bush, then when he was gung ho kick a$$ and take names later i was pro Bush, but now that the bush admin is doing alot of the things its doing im slipping back into anti Bush. But its actually better to say that im slipping into anti politics altogether. Im study to be a minister so fortunately, by gods grace, politics is not something i plan on getting into too deeply. Much of it conflicts with my beliefs.

[sekim]

Loose is an understatement. The U.S. had its most revered treasure assualted, and now in its most mild form of retaliation you nail it with a term such as this.

By the way, treasure = freedom

Because of this treasure, you are able to post such a statement without armed state police kicking down your doors and questioning your loyalties. One should remember that.

[Claudio]

A few months ago, this was posted in one of the site where I hang out. A few parts are a bit over the top, but I'm reposting it in it's completeness as I saw it originally. I find it useful to get some historical perspective, that is so easily lost (or at least it was for me) in conflicts that endure for so long.

Claudio

====================================
What most people forget is that the land that Israel now controls was
conquered in the 1920's by the British and French after defeating the Turks.
Britain and France drew the border lines which are now known as Syria,
Lebanon, and Iraq. The British has promised to give land so that jews could
rebuild a Zionist state. This was called the Palestine mandate. However, in
1921, the British took 80% of the land East of the Jordan and created the
Arab nation of "Transjordan". They gave this land to the Arabian monarch
King Abdullah.

The rest of the land was settled by Arabs and Jews. People also fail to
release that Jews have been living in this land continuously for 3,700 years
even after the Romans destroyed the their state in Judea around AD 70. Arabs
only became the dominant local population after Muslim invasions. The Arabs
were largely nomadic with no distinctive language or culture to seperate
them from other Arabs. In ALL the time since, the Arabs had made no atempt
to create an independent Palestinian state west or east of the Jordan and
none was ever established.

In 1948, at the request of Jews who were living in Palestine, the United
Nations voted to partition the remaining quarter of the original Mandate to
make a Jewish state possible. Yes. The United Nations. Not the United
States. Not Britain. The United Nations voted as a whole. Under the U.N.
plan, the Arabs were given the Jews ancient home in Judea and Samaria (i.e.
the West Bank). The Jews were alloted three slivers of disconnected land
along the Mediterranean and Sinai desert. The were also given access to
their holy city of Jerusalem. Sixty percent of the land given to the Jews
was the Negev Desert. Out of this unpromising land, the Jews still created a
new state, Israel, in 1948. At this time the idea of a palestinian nation or
even a movement to create one did NOT exist.

At the moment of Israels birth, Palestinian Arabs lived on roughly 90% of
the original Palestine Mandate. In "transjordan", the U.N. partition areas,
but also in the new state of Israel. There were about 800,000 arabs now
living alongside 1.2 million Jews. The Jews were also legally barred from
settling in the 35,000 square miles of Palestininan transjordan. Or what is
now just called Jordan.

If the Palestinians had been able to accept this arrangement where they got
90% of the land in the Palestine mandate there would be no Middle East
conflict. Instead the Arab nations declared war on Israel on the very day of
it's creations and 5 Arab armies invaded the three seperated slivers in
order to crush the Jewish state. During the fighting, according to a UN
representative at the scene, aproximately 472,000 Arabs fled their homes to
escape the dangers. They planned to return after the Arab victory and
destruction of the Jewish state.

But the Jews, many of which were Holocaust survivors, refused to be
defeated. Instead, the five Arab armies that had invated were repelled. Even
though their armies were beateh, the Arab states were determined to carry on
their campaign of destruction, and to remain formally at war with Israel.
After the defeat of the Arab armies the Palestinians who lived in the Arab
area of the UN partition did NOT attempt to create a state of their own.
Instead, in 1950, Jordan annexed the entire West Bank.

As a result of this annexation and the continuing state of war, the Arab
refugees who had fled the Israeli slivers did not reutrn. There was a
refugee flow into Israel, but it was a flow of Jews who had been expelled
from the surrounding Arab countries. All over the Middle East, Jews were
forced to leave lands they had lived on for centures. Although Israel was a
tiny geographical area and a new state, its government welcomed and
resettled 600,000 Jewish refugees from the Arab countries.

In the years that followed, the Iraelis made their desert bloom. The ybuilt
the ONLY industrialized economy in the entire Middle East. They built the
only liberal democracy in the Middle East. They treated the Arabs who had
remained in Israel well. Tho this day, the very large Arab minority, which
lives inside the state of Israel, has more rights and privileges than any
other Arab population in the entire Middle East.

The present Middle East conflict is said to be about the "occupied
territories" (i.e. the West Bank of Jordan and the Gaza strip) and about
Israels refusal to "give htem up". But during the first twenty years of the
Arab-Israeli conflict, Israel did not control the West Bank. In 1950, when
Jordan annexed the West Bank, there was no Arab outrage. Nor did the mIddle
East conflict with the jews subside.

The reason their was no Arab outrage over the annexation of the West Bank
was because Jordan is a state whos ethnic majority is Palestinian Arabs. On
the other hand, the Palestinians of Jordan are disenfranchised by the ruling
Hashemite minority. Despite thisfact, in the years following the annexation
the Palestinians displayed NO interest in achieving "self-determination" in
Hashemite Jordan. It is only the presence of Jews apparently, that incites
this claim. The idea that the current conflict is about "occupied
territories" is only one of the many large Arab deceits that is now widely
accepted, and has distorted the history of the Middle East wars.

In 1967, Egypt, Syria and Jordan attacked Israel for a second time and were
again defeated. It was in repelling these aggressors that Israel came to
control, the West Bank and the Gaza strip, as well as the oil-rich Sinai
desert. Israel had EVERY right to annex these territories captured from the
aggressors - a time honored ritual among nations, and in fact the precise
way that Syria, Lebanon, Iraq, and Jordan had come into exsitence
themselves. But Israel did not do so. On the othre hand, neither did it
withdraw its armies or relinquish its control.

The reason was that the Arab aggressors once again refused to make peace.
Instead, they declared themselves still at war with Israel, a threat no
Israeli government could afford to ignore. By this time, Israel was a
country of 2 or 3 million surrounded by declared enemies whose combined
populations numbered over 100 million. Geographically Israel was so small
that at one point it was less than ten miles across. No responsible Israeli
government could relinquish a territorial buffer while its hostile neighbors
were still formally at war. This is the reality that frames the Middle East
conflict.

In 1973, six years after the second Arab war against the Jews, the Arab
armies again attacked Israel. The attack was led by Syria and Egypt, abetted
by Iraq, Libya, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait and five other countries who gave
military support to the aggressors, including an Iraqi division of 18,000
men. Israel again defeated the Arab forces. Afterwards, Egypt - and Egypt
alone -- agreed to make a formal peace.

The peace was signed by Egyptian president, Anwar Sadat, who was
subsequently assassinated by Islamic radicals, paying for his statesmanship
with his life. Sadat is one of three Arab leaders assassinated by other
Arabs for making peace with the Jews.

Under the Camp David accords that Sadat signed, Israel returned the entire
Sinai with all its oil riches. This act demonstrated once and for all that
the solution to the Middle East conflict was ready at hand. It only required
the willingness of the Arabs to agree.

The Middle East conflict is not about Israel's occupation of the
territories; it is about the refusal of the Arabs to make peace with Israel,
which is an inevitable by- product of their desire to destroy it.

The Palestinians and their supporters also claim that the Middle East
conflict is about the Palestinians' yearning for a state and the refusal of
Israel to accept their aspiration. This claim is also false. The Palestine
Liberation Organization was created in 1964, sixteen years after the
establishment of Israel and the first anti-Israel war. The PLO was created
at a time the West Bank was not under Israeli control but was part of
Jordan. The PLO, however, was not created so that the Palestinians could
achieve self-determination in Jordan, which at the time comprised 90 percent
of the original Palestine Mandate. The PLO's express purpose, in the words
of its own leaders, was to "push the Jews into the sea."

The official charter of the new Palestine Liberation Organization referred
to the "Zionist invasion," declared that Israel's Jews were "not an
independent nationality," described Zionism as "racist" and "fascist,"
called for "the liquidation of the Zionist presence," and specified, "armed
struggle is the only way to liberate Palestine." In short, "liberation"
required the destruction of the Jewish state. The PLO was not even created
by Palestinians but by the Arab League -- the corrupt dictators who ruled
the Middle East and who had attempted to destroy Israel by military force in
1948, in 1967 and again in 1973.

For thirty years, the PLO charter remained unchanged in its call for Israel'
s destruction. Then in the mid-1990s, under enormous international pressure
following the 1993 Oslo accords, PLO leader Yasser Arafat removed the clause
while assuring his followers that its removal was a necessary compromise
that did not alter the movement's goals. He did this explicitly and also by
citing a historical precedent in which the Prophet Muhammad insincerely
agreed to a peace with his enemies in order to gain time to mass the forces
with which he intended to destroy them.

The Middle East struggle is not about right against right. It is about a
fifty-year effort by the Arabs to destroy the Jewish state, and the refusal
of the Arab states in general and the Palestinian Arabs in particular to
accept Israel's existence. If the Arabs were willing to do this, there would
be no occupied territories and there would be a Palestinian state.

In assessing the Middle East impasse it is important to pay attention to the
moral distinction revealed in the actions of the two combatants. When a
deranged Jew goes into an Arab mosque and kills the worshippers (which
happened once) he is acting alone and is universally condemned by the
Israeli government and the Jews in Israel and everywhere, and he is punished
to the full extent of Israeli law. But when a young Arab enters a disco
filled with teenagers or a shopping mall or bus crowded with women and
children and blows himself and innocent bystanders up (which happens
frequently), he is someone who has been trained and sent by a component of
the PLO or the Palestine Authority; he is officially praised as a hero by
Yasser Arafat; his mother is given money by the Palestine Authority; and his
Arab neighbors come to pay honor to the household for having produced a
"martyr for Allah." The Palestinian liberation movement is the first such
movement to elevate the killing of children - both the enemy's and its own -
into a religious calling and a strategy of the cause.

It is not only the methods of the Palestine liberation movement that are
morally repellent. The Palestinian cause is itself corrupt. The "Palestinian
problem" is a problem created by the Arabs, and can only be solved by them.
In Jordan, Palestinians already have a state in which they are a majority
but which denies them self- determination. Why is Jordan not the object of
the Palestinian "liberation" struggle? The only possible answer is because
it is not ruled by Jews.

There is a famous "green line" marking the boundary between Israel and its
Arab neighbors. That green line is also the bottom line for what is the real
problem in the Middle East. It is green because plants are growing in the
desert on the Israeli side but not on the Arab side. The Jews got a sliver
of land without oil, and created abundant wealth and life in all its rich
and diverse forms. The Arabs got nine times the acreage but all they have
done with it is to sit on its aridity and nurture the poverty, resentments
and hatreds of its inhabitants. Out of these dark elements they have created
and perfected the most vile anti-human terrorism the world has ever seen:
Suicide bombing of civilians. In fact, the Palestinians are a community of
suicide bombers: they want the destruction of Israel more than they want a
better life.

If a nation state is all the Palestinians desire, Jordan would be the
solution. (So would settling for 95 percent of one's demands.) But the
Palestinians also want to destroy Israel. This is morally hateful. It is the
Nazi virus revived. Nonetheless, the Palestinian cause is generally
supported by the international community, with the singular exception of the
United States (and to a lesser degree Great Britain). It is precisely
because the Palestinians want to destroy a state that Jews have created --
and because they are killing Jews -- that they enjoy international
credibility and otherwise inexplicable support.

Gilbert, Martin. "Jerusalem in the Twentieth Century". John Wiley & Sons,
1996

Rabinovich, Itamar. "Waging Peace: Israel and the Arabs at the End of the
Century". Farrar Straus Giroux, 1999

Yitzhak, Rabin. "The Rabin Memoirs". University of California Press, 1996.

Martin Gilbert's book takes sources from old guidebooks, memoirs, newspaper
articles, private correspondence, and personal diaries.

[zevele1]

Jared
I understand what you mean,but you cannot put it in the same side that september 11th
The only thing that you may put on the same side is Chili
All the things you say, more -yes HTH is rigth-Kyoto,Monterey,taxes on steel and many more things
All this thing who are not as MachineHead said mild form retaliation are a problem.But more for your country than anything else
The sympathy many countrys had for USA since september is just ,again,remplaced by anti-US feeling
I do not speak about rogues countrys,but about Europe,Japan

I do not know enought USA to say that much
But look like that you are as much short sighted than before.By putting corporates interest as a model of society you are again  disliked as much-if not more - than before september
And this in countrys that must be friendly countrys
As i said in another post month ago,you did not learn anything from such a big drama

[Riff]

I know the source I linked to had the exact opposite bias of the article I read here, but it is good to get perspective.  It's always better to hear both sides than just one.  Personally, I feel that Israel is more at fault than the Palestinians for more reasons than I wish to get into here.  Anyway, here is a link to a better, less-biased (this time my link is not biased at all) history of the area/conflict.  It gives the history from the perspective of both Israelis and Palestinians, rather than the history according to Israel that was just posted above.

http://www.sptimes.com/News/120901/Worldandnation/Children_of_Abraham__.shtml

[zevele1]

Riff
I did not have a look at the links you give
Not because i do not care.Just i do not have my computer and use an old very slow one with a modem 56 kps phone connection
I am just comming from time to time on the net for short time.I need my phone line to be free
I get my computer tomorow and will go to the links you gave

If they are biased at a rational level-i mean not saying that we do pita with children blood-i do not see that as a big problem to me

But i just do not care if there is such a thing as palestiniens,if was such a thing as Palestine,i just do not care if Israel wrong or right,i just do not care about history

I have in front of me people who want a place to be,a place to live as they want
And by the way Jordan is not they place,they do not want to move to Jordan.They want to live where the are now.
To this i cannot imagine an other answer that YES
YES to all
Very very late-because of both sides-we started a process,the not that good Oslo plan

And since i have a problem
One one side they say that they want a state along Israel,on another side they say that the ultime goal is to destroy Israel,negociations are just a way to get it

Ok ,you can listen to arafat on CNN
But just read ALL his speechs in arabic.ALL of them call for the destruction of Israel
Have a look to ALL school books,they speak about the destruction of Israel
Now Mubarak is mad at Arafat.I did not listen to the chef of security Mubarak sent him,and want to take hamas and jhihad  in is gouvernement
If case you wonder if i try to bias,i just tell you that i heard on egyptian tv in they french and english news

So let put things staigth awayr we are trying to find an agrement,and there is a way to find one.Not easy and both sides will not get that they want

Or they play double game cause there is white countrys stupid enought to not understand
And they want to destroy us.I do not even have a problem with it
You want to destroy us,welcome, i am ready to do the same.And i am like you ,there is no men,women,kids,just an ennemy
Let see who will survive
Now if you say we have tanks ,planes,army and not you,very sorry but YOU want to destroy us.In this case better to think before

The enemy for me is not the palestiniens,the enemy is the people who want to destroy me
If they are white,arabs,black,blue with green stripes  ,the same to me

My opinion is that palestiniens do not deserve to have such a rubish as arafat as they leader.Beside the problem with Israel
they do not have freedoom,they do not see one cent of the billions dollars stupid europe gave to arafat
Thanks to arafat the only thing they gave to the word is suicide bombing as new rule in the game that will spread all other the world in near future

I do think they deserve much better than it
They deserve to have a better life,to have freedom.But arafat is THEY leader,NOT mine

The day they will be ready to find a solution ,to see negotation as a final goal-and not a steep to destroy us-,this day we ,all of us,will find a solution

If not ,they will bomb us as now
Even concerning that,they leader is stupid

They killed few hundreds of us,we killed few thousands of them
Numbers speak:if they want to bomb us another 10 years,look like that no need  for a country,a reservation will do for the few still alive

This is for a large part THEY problem,not MINE

Wish you a nice sunday-Salem