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Author Topic: Theater View Questions  (Read 5794 times)

666JackTheKnife666

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Theater View Questions
« on: March 30, 2011, 02:04:14 am »

Hi, I am wondering if it is possible to disable the all xyz selection in the Theater view's.
I know it's vague so I will try to give an example.

say you enter audio and select albums. you will see a selection usually in the upper right for all albums. I would really like to get rid of that item or selection or what ever the proper name for it is.

any idea how ?
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csimon

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Re: Theater View Questions
« Reply #1 on: March 30, 2011, 04:42:50 am »

See http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=59650.0

Apparently, some people want it and some people don't, so it keeps being removed and then reinstated due to requests at the time.  However the best thing to do would be to add an option so that the user can decide whether to have it or not.

I specifically don't want it for my DLNA views.
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666JackTheKnife666

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Re: Theater View Questions
« Reply #2 on: March 30, 2011, 08:38:06 am »

See http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=59650.0

Apparently, some people want it and some people don't, so it keeps being removed and then reinstated due to requests at the time.  However the best thing to do would be to add an option so that the user can decide whether to have it or not.

I specifically don't want it for my DLNA views.

That is the same reason why I want it gone as well.
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rick.ca

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Re: Theater View Questions
« Reply #3 on: March 30, 2011, 03:33:17 pm »

Apparently, some people want it and some people don't, so it keeps being removed and then reinstated due to requests at the time.  However the best thing to do would be to add an option so that the user can decide whether to have it or not.

This matter has been discussed at length in the past. As your linked post suggests, many seem to believe there's something "wrong" with the basic design—at least in that it's not suitable to how they configure their views. This is not the case...

You keep asking for this as if Theater View is broken without it. I thought I understood this correctly as a rather minor personal preference thing, but now I wonder if I'm missing something...

It seems to me an option to suppress the "All" grouping would only be applicable in the case where the view includes one and only one category. If there are no categories, it's not applicable—it goes directly to the file list. If there are two or more categories, you need the ability to select "All" of one or more categories. But even in the case where there is only one category, eliminating the "All" grouping is of dubious value. To want the option suggests there must be another view that would display all files in the list. If so, why not just eliminate that instead? So, for example, instead of views for All, Genre, Artist..., eliminate All, and use Genre - All to get all files.

Even if that's not the issue, before eliminating the "All" grouping, I would consider whether any Rules for file display might be applied to the view so that a selection of "All" would still be useful or relevant. For example, I could have a view for Year (perhaps grouped by decade) which is sorted by year. In this case, "All" would give me the means to display all items by year—something probably not available in other views. I just set up such a view for my movies. "All" (rather than selecting a decade) is clearly the best way to see the relatively small number of movies I have from before 1940. Just a further illustration of my point—while the normal use of a view might be to pick a specific grouping, there are a variety of different (and perhaps unpredictable) circumstances where "All" might be necessary and useful.

I have no objection to the option being provided, and might even use it myself. Now that I've thought about it, I might appreciate more the option to move "All" to the bottom of the list—to better reflect it's use in some views as the exception rather than the rule. I still wonder if I'm missing something—that the circumstances causing you to ask for this are something I haven't even considered.

The design is perfectly sensible and the "All" item is essential for the general case where a view may include any number of categories which will not necessarily be used in a strictly hierarchical manner. The "All" item is only superfluous in the very specific situation where a choice will always be made—like an [Artist]-[Album] view in which one would never want to bypass Artist and select from a list of all Albums. Otherwise, a perceived need for such an option is likely the result of improperly designed views. For example, one might argue "All Genres" is useless because they never want to mix Classical mix with other genres. In that case, the issue is not "All Genres," but the failure to create a separate views for Classical and Other (or whatever subsets of music their personal preference dictates). Another example: One has created separate views, each based on one attribute like Album Type, Year, Rating, etc. and then complains "All Types/Years/Ratings" is superfluous in each of these views. But it's much more effective to simply incorporate such attributes in other views—if they are really necessary. You then have views where you have the flexibility to (for example) restrict the selection to a specific year or decade, OR bypass that attribute by selecting "All Years."

This is not an argument against the addition of an option. But the context is important in determining exactly how such an option should work, and making the case for adding it...

  • The existing design is sound—this is a matter of providing an option to accommodate a personal preference.
  • The preference will unlikely be applicable to all views—the option cannot be a global one.
  • The preference may not apply to all categories in one view—the option cannot be applied to a view.
  • Therefore, the the option should apply to each category included in a view.
  • In the existing interface, this would be a "setting" in the Category properties window.
  • Even if set as a Category property, it would be helpful if there were a visual indication of the setting in the Category list (under "Details"). Existing settings would have a bearing on the addition of a category or a change in the order of the categories.
  • A clear visual indication of setting might also reduce the risk of it being set without a proper understanding of it's purpose, forgetting it has been set, and then being confused by it's results.

Personally, I think it's more trouble than it's worth. Most of my views rely on the "All" item being there—as designed. Suppressing it in the few views where it might be considered superfluous will only introduce an inconsistency that would likely do more harm than good.
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csimon

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Re: Theater View Questions
« Reply #4 on: March 30, 2011, 05:21:31 pm »

I have set up my views exactly how I want them, I wouldn't describe them as being improperly designed!

You mention that it is superfluous only in specific hierarchical cases, e.g. a drill-down like Artist ==> Album.  But what if all my views are like that!

For example, I go into my Artist menu and along with a list of all my Artists I also get an item called All Artists, which skips the Artist level and goes to the next level (Album).  But the whole point of having the top level displaying Artists is because I want to drill down by Artist and therefore filter the next level by Artist.  You have indeed understood and mentioned this scenario, and all my other views are the same sort of issue.

I have a Theme Parks category which lists theme park music.  The top level is the Park name because I want to drill down by Park and see a list of rides in that Park.  But there is also an All Parks item which lists all rides across all parks.  The whole point of having a Park level is to filter by Park so I don't need to scroll down the long list of rides or, particularly where there are several rides of the same name but in different Parks as there would be no other way of differentiating them, except by incorporating the Park name in the Ride name (analagous to including an Album name within a Song Title).

In my Music Videos menu my top level is a group-by-4 index of song titles (A-D, E-H etc) to enable easy drill-down selection on a DLNA player which is controlled via up/down arrows on a remote control.  The next level is a group-by-1 on Song Title, e.g. once you've chosen the E-H item then the next level shows E, F, G and H separately.  With hundreds of videos, having them all in a long list without some sort of categorisation and drill-down selection would be impractical.  But the very top item in my Group-by-4 index is "All Song Titles" which skips the group-by-4 level and goes straight to the group-by-1 level and provides me with 26 individual A to Z entries (plus a few for titles that start with numbers!), which I would never use.

I'm using DLNA, therefore what the controller gets and displays is a hierarchical drill-down tree, it's not a Theater View display or something likes Panes where you can filter a main display by certain things.

Or are my views poorly designed?  I don't really understand how else to design them for use with DLNA controllers.  Maybe it's something I have to "click" into the mindset of but I don't actually understand the point of creating a purpose-built drill-down view by specific fields but then bypassing the fields that you have lovingly specified to give you a huge list that is impractical for use with a DLNA player!

The issue of skipping a level when there is one and only one category value is something I have brought up before (it would be extremely useful), but I don't think it's relevant to this "All" discussion.
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rick.ca

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Re: Theater View Questions
« Reply #5 on: March 30, 2011, 06:39:32 pm »

Quote
Or are my views poorly designed?  I don't really understand how else to design them for use with DLNA controllers.

I don't use DLNA, so I don't know for sure if the behaviour there is any different. As I said 18 months ago, I may be missing something, but no one has ever explained what that might be. There's nothing in your comments that would suggest things don't work the same way on a DLNA device. The "All" item must show up, or you wouldn't be complaining about it. You haven't mentioned any error happening if it's selected, so I assume it's doing what it's supposed to do (in effect, ignoring the category and moving on to the next in the hierarchy). Even in the examples you give (like theme park music), the ability to select "All" is clearly relevant. Why would I absolutely not want to select all parks and then one ride—and see all music from all parks for that ride? All you seem to be saying is you're not inclined to do that, so you find the option to do so annoying. Fine. That is, perhaps, a basis for requesting an option. If it doesn't work on a DLNA device, that's a different matter—the remedy for which is probably not an option, but something that fixes the problem.

But you are asking for an option, so it seems you're missing my main point. The program is not designed according to your personal preferences. It has to be designed so it meets the needs and preferences of as many users as possible—while maintaining a straightforward and intuitive design. When that has been accomplished, but some complain they find something that gives everyone a choice "annoying" because they don't need it—that complaint is rightly ignored. We're past that now, and you're asking for an option. But that option still needs to be defined in such a way that it actually does what is needed, and does so in a way that does not adversely impact those who have no interest in it. Although I have no personal interest in such an option, I've attempted to do that for you. If you disagree, what is it you want the developers to consider?
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csimon

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Re: Theater View Questions
« Reply #6 on: March 31, 2011, 03:42:15 am »

Yes, the All item does appear, but it's completely irrelevant because I've designed my views to deliver exactly what I want, and the All item is an unnecessary waste of a line on a DLNA controller (which may well be a mobile device)!  That is also a reason why the All item would very rarely be used on a mobile item or a DLNA device because it skips a filter and delivers more lines that might be more than is practical to scroll through.

One of the aims of MC is to deliver a customisable interface that can be programmed for your exacts needs and wishes.  I've played around and have still got several other DLNA servers and none of them automatically add a fixed All item to all menus.  The beauty of MC is that it is customisable, but not unfortunately to the extent of being able to turn off the unnecessary All item.

I'm not actually sure what you are saying to be honest - that the All item is wanted or that it's not wanted and why yiou think that an option to turn off the All item would adversely affect those who do actually want it!

It would consist of a checkbox somewhere (in the DLNA server, for example, it could be in the Advanced settings) that says "Provide an All menu item".  To enable backward compatibility, it would be On by default so things stay as they are between releases.  But people who don't want it would then have the ability to turn it off

The debate has occurred before but instead of providing a user option to allow the user to decide whether they want it or not, the All item has been "hardcoded".

People are requesting a facility to toggle the All item on or off, it's what some people want, that's what this thread is about.  Perhaps it's not a vast majority of people, the vast majority of people possibly do not care or are not bothered by it.  But it's a request just like any other request that might have been suggested by a few people rather than the majority of existing MC users.
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MrHaugen

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Re: Theater View Questions
« Reply #7 on: March 31, 2011, 04:56:45 am »

No matter how much this is designed to suite all users, Rick, there is quite a few of us that thinks this all selections is a huge waste. And in some cases it's annoying and time consuming. There is definitively a need for a way to remove this.
People have a habit of hitting things like "All" all the time. Because that gives them... All. This does not only apply to the All selections in the media views. It also applies to the Play All command on the roller. New users hit this things ALL the time, and it's very annoying that you have to tell different people things like this every other weekend party or movie night:

Normal Scenario 1:
Me: Hold on. You're now in the album view. You should never choose that first Item called All xxxxxx.
Alice: Why? I want to access all artists.
Me: That gives you all albums, not all artists. You'll have a hard time looking for your favorite artists here in album view, so please go back to the artist view
Alice: What? Where is the Artist view? This is so confusing. Do you have iTunes or Spotify?

Normal Scenario 2:
Me: Noooooooooo! Never ever hit the Play ALL option. It will overwrite all the tracks we have been adding to playing now this whole evening. Damn you Thor! You have to go to Play more option, and then select Add as next to play. Next time, the correct Add command is on the roller.
Thor: What? What's a roller? What ever.. But I don't want to add, I want to play it now.
Me: Then you hit Add as Next to play, and you hit the skip button on the remote.
thor: Aaaaaha. I see. Ok.... This is confusing

A Theater View is supposed to be minimalistic and clean. No unwanted crap that can confuse people. Some people need this options, because they have not the views needed to do without it. But for us that actually have all the views we need, this is things that is just in the way, and it's confusing new users very much.
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csimon

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Re: Theater View Questions
« Reply #8 on: March 31, 2011, 05:08:09 am »

Yes, precisely!

It's not a necessary item for properly-designed views, it's actually there to cater for views that haven't been well thought out!

It's actually unnecessary and a hindrance in properly-designed views.
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csimon

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Re: Theater View Questions
« Reply #9 on: March 31, 2011, 07:35:39 am »

Put it this way, when you are using My Computer in Windows to navigate your hard disk, does Windows add an extra dummy folder called "All Folders" to each window?

No it doesn't.

Why?  Because it's useless in a drill-down folder situation.  It would remove the filter on the the current level and provide you with a list of files across all folders without any folder structure to them.  Why on earth would you want to do that?  It might be useful if you want to find a file and know its name but don't know what folder it's in, but that's the reason why you create folders and an organisation structure sensibly so that you can easily find what you want.  And you would use Search in this situation anyway.  The All Folders facility would only be useful if you haven't designed your structure properly and you haven't catalogued things correctly.

And All Folders is a misnomer and is misleading anyway.  What it would give to you is All Files without the folder structure.

In a similar way that MC's All Artists is misleading and counterintuitive.  It actually provides you with All Albums without Artists structure.

In my theme park collection, All Parks doesn't give me all parks, it gives me all rides.

In my music videos collection, All Song Titles doesn't give me all song titles, it gives me an A-Z index.

At the very least, the All item should be renamed "All <next level item>s regardless of <current level item>".

There is one situation where I agree that an All item is useful and removes the need for a separate view.  If you had an Artist view and also a Genre view that was exactly the same as the Artist view but instead had a Genre stage first, you could get rid of the Artist view altogether.  Putting this generally, if you have two views that are exactly the same but differ only in an extra first level in one of them, then the All item comes into its own to reduce the number of views.  But this is what I call a "programmer's" solution.  It's a "neat and clever" way of doing something that gives you a lot of satisfaction in achieving it but in reality just complicates things and doesn't make thing better, because now to find a list of Albums by an Artist I have to go into the Genre menu and select the All Genres item, none of which makes sense!
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MrHaugen

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Re: Theater View Questions
« Reply #10 on: March 31, 2011, 08:05:53 am »

Personally, I think it's more trouble than it's worth. Most of my views rely on the "All" item being there—as designed. Suppressing it in the few views where it might be considered superfluous will only introduce an inconsistency that would likely do more harm than good.

You're making this a lot more complicated than it should be. I think most users would be just happy to be able to disable or enable this on a global basis. The people who see the need to remove this things, are probably the same people that have their Views made in a way that they never will need this items. Most standard in MC views is made in a way that makes this option excessive, if I remember right. As you say, it will only introduce inconsistency if there is different setups for each view or category.
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cncb

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Re: Theater View Questions
« Reply #11 on: March 31, 2011, 10:06:25 am »

I have no problems with it being optional but I disagree that the "All" item is not useful.  It allows you to bypass filtering at various levels which is very useful for me.  For example, I have a view to browse my photos and home videos that has categories of Keywords, Year, and Type(Photo or Video).  So, I can browse in any way I want by bypassing filtering at any level with this one view rather than making a view for each case.
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cncb

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Re: Theater View Questions
« Reply #12 on: March 31, 2011, 10:19:29 am »

In a similar way that MC's All Artists is misleading and counterintuitive.  It actually provides you with All Albums without Artists structure.

Not really.  It provides you "Albums from All Artists".   If you select a specific artist at the same level it will filter out albums for that artist and won't have an "artists structure" when you drill down.
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csimon

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Re: Theater View Questions
« Reply #13 on: March 31, 2011, 10:24:06 am »

Quote
It provides you "Albums from All Artists".
Yes, exactly.  That doesn't equate to "All Artists"!!!  It's the difference between the subject and the object of the sentence I guess.  It provides you with a list of Albums.  Which albums?  Those from all artists.

If I asked you to describe this list:

Greatest Hits
Brothers In Arms
Grease
Thriller

Would you declare it as a list of All Artists or All Albums?

Quote
If you select a specific artist at the same level it will filter out albums for that artist and won't have an "artists structure" when you drill down.
Yes, exactly.  That's the point of having an artist level.  You pick an artist and drill down by that artist, so at the next level the artist element is removed and you only see albums by the artist you've chosen.  That's what drill-down and hierarchical means!
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cncb

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Re: Theater View Questions
« Reply #14 on: March 31, 2011, 11:01:28 am »

Yes, exactly.  That doesn't equate to "All Artists"!!!  It's the difference between the subject and the object of the sentence I guess.  It provides you with a list of Albums.  Which albums?  Those from all artists.

If I asked you to describe this list:

Greatest Hits
Brothers In Arms
Grease
Thriller

Would you declare it as a list of All Artists or All Albums?

But you are at the wrong level.  You are talking about the level where you are picking an artist, not albums.  That just happens to be the next filter/category but it could be anything.  So, "All Artists" makes the most sense at this level where you are selecting an artist.  In my example above, it would not make any sense at the root view level to have "All Years" instead of "All Keywords" which is what seems to be you are suggesting.
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rick.ca

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Re: Theater View Questions
« Reply #15 on: March 31, 2011, 06:14:42 pm »

In reading this over, it now seems clear providing an option to suppress the "All" item would be a very bad idea. We already have a simple, elegant mechanism for handling categories in views. It's flexible enough to be adapted to any situation, and in its consistent simplicity remains easy to understand—regardless of the situation in which it's used. I have a large number of views for a wide range of different situations. In none of them do I have a problem with a "superfluous" or "useless" "All" item. Some users, however, ignore the design and obstinately create views that are ineffective, inefficient and/or confusing—and then blame the result on the design. Adding an option to accommodate this dysfunctional behaviour will only make matters worse.

This is not Windows Explorer or iTunes, and the mechanism in question is not a "drill-down" function. It's a much more flexible and useful filtering function. The fact it's more powerful in no way implies it's confusing or difficult to understand. The fact it has fewer limitations should mean it's easier to understand. One has to be really stuck on the drill-down model not to understand the simpler idea of filtering. Given the purpose of the mechanism, there's no good reason to restrict category selections to one value. Drill-down works if the only result desired it that which lies at the end of a hierarchical chain—like a folder in a file system or one album of music. But even in a Windows Explorer context, that's rather restrictive. If you need to do things like display all files of a certain type in a whole branch of folders, you need a more capable file manager. In a media manager context, finding an album is about all it's good for. Filtering is more effective for selecting music (or images) on any other basis. For video, drilling-down might be an effective way to navigate to a season of a series (it is, after all, analogous to an album of songs). Otherwise—and particularly for movies—drilling-down is next to useless compared to filtering.

Why does the addition of a straightforward option need to be carefully considered? This discussion is a perfect illustration of why this is so. A new user who has no preconceptions of how something like this should work will find it simple, intuitive and easy to understand and learn. If they have any difficulty, they will be easy to guide. Once they understand all that it's capable of, then they might appreciate an option that adds even more flexibility. But what's being suggested here is an option that would reinforce a false preconception preventing them from realizing the full capability of the program.

BTW, since my question about this behaviour on a DLNA device is still not answered, it seems clear it must be the same as in Theatre View and the whole "this doesn't work for DLNA" thing must be a red herring.
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666JackTheKnife666

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Re: Theater View Questions
« Reply #16 on: March 31, 2011, 11:54:13 pm »

I don't think that being able to toggle the all off as a bad idea.
for me it is visually irritating and a distraction from the beauty of my theater view views.
My usage scenario is me in a big rig on the highway squinting at a laptop screen operating a remote navigating theater view extra crap on my view bug's me. I would really love to see the all selection go away.
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rick.ca

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Re: Theater View Questions
« Reply #17 on: April 01, 2011, 01:00:45 am »

Quote
My usage scenario is me in a big rig on the highway squinting at a laptop screen operating a remote navigating theater view...

The problem in this scenario most certainly has nothing to do with the software. :o

If it's the use of voice command that by some stretch of imagination makes this a safe (and legal?) practice, it would work much better if the views were properly designed. Using the filtering method (i.e., using the "All" item according it's design), it would be possible to make any kind of selection using only one or a few views and minimize the need for distracting visual feedback. You would do this by including whatever categories (which could include calculated data as well as fields) are useful to you in making a selection, in the order that works best for you. There would be more categories than you would need for any one selection, but you would simply skip unused categories with an "Enter" command.

But I'd feel much safer if you would use Play Doctor, and keep your eyes on the road. ;)
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666JackTheKnife666

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Re: Theater View Questions
« Reply #18 on: April 01, 2011, 01:24:49 am »

for music certinly playdoc works fine, but 99% of the time I am listening to audio books. my views  are

author
 book series
  book title

genere
  book series
   book title

book series
 book title

when navigating any of those views the all choice is not wanted or needed or desired.

as for safety usually I pick a book at the beginning of my day and then I am good to go for 6-7 hrs the only other button I press is the play/pause for when I have to get out of the truck.
the problem is when the book ends and I still have 4-5 hrs of driving left in the day. then I like to find another book to listen to.

The answer seems to be gee that's a bummer you don't like it, I suggest you learn to love the all button if you don't well we cant help it if you do your view's incorrectly.  
hey whatever I just asked a simple question no need for folks to get all upset over it. However I will say this I personally dislike the all selection and I don't see a good reason for it to be in my views as I always drill down to a specific book/album.
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MrHaugen

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Re: Theater View Questions
« Reply #19 on: April 01, 2011, 02:10:25 am »

But you are at the wrong level.  You are talking about the level where you are picking an artist, not albums.  That just happens to be the next filter/category but it could be anything.  So, "All Artists" makes the most sense at this level where you are selecting an artist.  In my example above, it would not make any sense at the root view level to have "All Years" instead of "All Keywords" which is what seems to be you are suggesting.

No. This does not make sense for new users. It's not intuitive, unless you know what it really does. When you hit something called All artists, you'd expect to see all the artists. You're already in the artist view. But new users can think that this is not the complete list of artists, and they hit the all item.
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MrHaugen

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Re: Theater View Questions
« Reply #20 on: April 01, 2011, 02:34:41 am »

In reading this over, it now seems clear providing an option to suppress the "All" item would be a very bad idea. We already have a simple, elegant mechanism for handling categories in views. It's flexible enough to be adapted to any situation, and in its consistent simplicity remains easy to understand—regardless of the situation in which it's used. I have a large number of views for a wide range of different situations. In none of them do I have a problem with a "superfluous" or "useless" "All" item. Some users, however, ignore the design and obstinately create views that are ineffective, inefficient and/or confusing—and then blame the result on the design. Adding an option to accommodate this dysfunctional behaviour will only make matters worse.

Rick. I'm sorry to say so, but you upset me for real. After reading things like this my blood pressure goes up, and I can't calm down for quite some time. Please use your head before writing stuff like this. You go on about your way of dealing with things, and shutting your eyes completely to everything others have to say. Everyone else's opinions does simply not get through. You live in your own bubble, and do not want for one second, to think that others might do tings in a different way than you. I DO understand the way you use views, categories and this extremely dumbed down filtering (as you call it) mechanism. For me it is not something I even consider. Not for the media I have, and the way I select my media to play. Do tell me that this is also wrong. I've been using MC since MC11, and I know most of the possibilities. But this is working best for me, and those that visits me. You simply have to deal with that fact.

Why in the worlds name would it be a bad thing to let people choose away elements that they NEVER use? Nobody sais that you have to use is! Things like this All items is just in the way for people that use the drill down category approach. As I mentioned, there is several good and reasonable explanations why this elements is not for the best in every case.

1. Some of us simply never EVER use it
2. DLNA devices and other small devices have a limited screens, and this item if (for some), just means another push on a button to get through. Another flick to get past.
3. Things like Theater View is made for normal TV's, that is not allways Full HD. Space matters, and anything not needed should be possible to strip away. TV needs to be simple and intuitive.
4. People not familiar with MC do not understand what it does. It says All artist, but it gives you albums and so on. Do NOT tell me that the new users I have in my living room does not have this problem. Because they do. Do not tell me that this people think it's more simple to have this All items, because they actually select it with the wrong intentions often. My previous "spoken" examples it in fact pretty normal for me, and I don't like like to repeat my self.
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rick.ca

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Re: Theater View Questions
« Reply #21 on: April 01, 2011, 03:23:30 am »

but 99% of the time I am listening to audio books. my views  are...

Have you considered using just one view with categories Genre - Author - Series?

No. This does not make sense for new users. It's not intuitive, unless you know what it really does. When you hit something called All artists, you'd expect to see all the artists.

If someone is looking at a list of all artists and the very first item says "All Artists," how could they possibly think the result will be another list of all artists? A new user (or someone other than the one who configured the view) may not know what to expect next, but they'll quickly learn (e.g., when they see a list of albums by the artist they chose)—as long as the behaviour is logical and consistent. You're trying to argue a confused or mentally challenged person will do better if you have the option make the view behave in an inconsistent manner. You're wrong.

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Why in the worlds name would it be a bad thing to let people choose away elements that they NEVER use?

My previous explanation was perfectly clear. Initially, I saw no harm and even attempted to outline how the option might be implemented. But you and csimon convinced me it's a bad idea. We already have people frothing at the mouth because they don't understand something that's perfectly straightforward. Making it more complicated obviously won't help.
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MrHaugen

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Re: Theater View Questions
« Reply #22 on: April 01, 2011, 05:35:18 am »

With every sentence you write, my theory of your missing ability to see anything from other's point of view, only grows stronger.

If someone is looking at a list of all artists and the very first item says "All Artists," how could they possibly think the result will be another list of all artists? A new user (or someone other than the one who configured the view) may not know what to expect next, but they'll quickly learn (e.g., when they see a list of albums by the artist they chose)—as long as the behaviour is logical and consistent. You're trying to argue a confused or mentally challenged person will do better if you have the option make the view behave in an inconsistent manner. You're wrong.

If people are looking at a list of artists, and they see an item which is called "All Artists", they start to wonder. What is this? I already see the artists, so..... They DO sometimes think that the list is not complete, and click this item to get the "full" artist list. This have happened several times to my guests, and they are not mentally challenged. If you did not know anything about Media Center, and you saw this in a Artist View. You would wonder your self. Because it's not a good description, and it's not intuitive. It might be a smart function when you know what it does, but not before that. It might be quick to learn, but how many people are we supposed to learn this to? And how many times do we have to learn them this, if they do not use the system for a long time?
And you talk about behavior in an inconsistent manner. Where do you take this from? There is nothing inconsistent about totally disabling a function that does not provide any benefits from users in a some view scheme scenarios. It is JUST as consistent as having it enabled globally like it is today. So, you are wrong.

My previous explanation was perfectly clear. Initially, I saw no harm and even attempted to outline how the option might be implemented. But you and csimon convinced me it's a bad idea. We already have people frothing at the mouth because they don't understand something that's perfectly straightforward. Making it more complicated obviously won't help.

Your explanation might have been clear, but much of it is just not based on facts. It might be based on your facts, but again you are totally ignorant to other persons concerns and expectations. How exactly did we convince you that this is a bad idea? I do not get that. We have given many examples of why this would benefit a group of users, and not have any impact of the users that want the items as they are. Actually, I think this group of users that does not need this All items is quite big. To set up the views in such a way that this is not needed, it a pretty standard way of thinking. Especially when they go from more shallow "products" like windows explorer, winamp and iTunes. Things is categorized, and you have to drill down to get to most of it.

We have people that think MC is complicated, yes. HOW can a suggestion that is simply about allowing the removal of redundant items in certain peoples view schemes, make it more complicated? That is IF it's set up in a way that the All items is never needed. If anything, it should make it just a tad easier and more intuitive!

If your thinking that different MC installations might behave differently and users therefor will have problems, that is a bit far fetched. 95% of people who use my system have never used MC, or heard of it at all. If they learn how to navigate in a system without this options, and they use a machine with this items enabled, they will have little problem adapting to another item on the screen. Though this people are far more likely to never see other users use MC16 at all. In fact, I think that people will have much more problems adapting to new views, new info views and items in those lists, new media sub types or video sub types, new skins etc. To make it easier for users, should we not allow things like this to be changed? No, that would be nuts! Just as nuts as it is to work against such a small and little intrusive suggestion!
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csimon

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Re: Theater View Questions
« Reply #23 on: April 01, 2011, 06:00:27 am »

Hear hear!

It's becoming clear that there is a polarisation of "drill down" and "filtering" methodologies.

Fans of one method probably don't fully appreciate why fans of the other don't understand why they find their method easier to work with.  It's horses for courses, but what shouldn't happen is "you should do it my way because personally I find it easier".  The "All" item is a function of the filtering method, fans of the filtering method don't want it removed because it's an absolutely essential part to the way they have become accustomed to working.  However, it is completely meaningless and obtrusive to fans of the drill-down method, it's almost like forcing the filtering method on people.  Therefore the most sensible solution is to provide an option to switch it on or off.  No other media server forces this extra menu category into peoples' menus.  It seems like a personal attack actually!  MC has been designed so that we can add and remove views to our heart's content and get it customised exactly how we want it, but it actually generates extra intrusive items on our personalised menus that we don't want and can't get rid of.
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rick.ca

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Re: Theater View Questions
« Reply #24 on: April 01, 2011, 02:55:06 pm »

Rick. I'm sorry to say so, but you upset me for real. After reading things like this my blood pressure goes up...

With every sentence you write, my theory of your missing ability to see anything from other's point of view, only grows stronger.

Please do us all a favour and stop reading and responding to my posts. I'm very comfortable in knowing you disagree with me. In fact, I find the rare event of your agreeing with me rather disturbing. But if you insist on me telling you why you're wrong, I will. If you keep it up, your head is going to explode. I don't want to be associated with that.
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JimH

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Re: Theater View Questions
« Reply #25 on: April 01, 2011, 03:27:21 pm »

Please state your position and beliefs without throwing stones.

If that's not possible, I'll lock the thread.
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rick.ca

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Re: Theater View Questions
« Reply #26 on: April 01, 2011, 03:50:32 pm »

It's becoming clear that there is a polarisation of "drill down" and "filtering" methodologies.

You start off well...

Quote
MC has been designed so that we can add and remove views to our heart's content and get it customised exactly how we want it, but it actually generates extra intrusive items on our personalised menus that we don't want and can't get rid of.

...but this seems to be headed back towards unproductive argument.

The fact is the existing design—which emerged out of huge amount of discussion and debate—is based on a filtering model. It is simple, straightforward, and flexible. So much so, it can accommodate a view which will only be used in a drill-down manner. That only has the trivial inconvenience of the unnecessary "All" item. And that is just a perception likely held only by those who the drill-down method exclusively. Those who use both methods surely understand its purpose and are not bothered with its presence in a view where it's not likely to be used. But this is beside the point. There should be no harm in adding an option to suppress the thing where it's not wanted. But that doesn't seem to be good enough. The response to my proposal for such an option has been further argument the basic design is flawed and that anyone who thinks otherwise is insensitive to the needs of others. If that's the premise we have to accept, I'd prefer the option not be provided.
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csimon

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Re: Theater View Questions
« Reply #27 on: April 02, 2011, 11:42:00 am »

There should be no harm in adding an option to suppress the thing where it's not wanted.
Correct, that's what we're asking for.

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The response to my proposal for such an option has been further argument the basic design is flawed and that anyone who thinks otherwise is insensitive to the needs of others.
I don't think that's the case at all, we're putting forward the reasons why we don't want the All item, or at least would like the option to choose when to have it.  It gets problematic when someone else comes in and tries to tell us that other people would like it therefore the option to remove it should not be implemented!

I have actually found a use for it, but it's a very specific case. I'm experimenting with consolidating my theme park music and theme park videos into a top level category outside and at the same level as the main Audio, Images and Video categories.  The rationale being that I have a collection of theme park media and don't necessarily want to decide right at the beginning whether I want to listen to music, watch video or view photos.  I just want to view media that I've got that relates to Alton Towers, for example.

So I have a top-level Theme Parks category that selects all media items with Genre = Theme Parks (this must be a common attribute across all media types for this to work).  The next level down is an item of Media Type (which resolves to Audio, Images or Video) and the next level down is Park, so I can then select a particular media type and then a particular park as necessary, but there is also an "All Media Types" item which allows me to then drill down into a particular park and see all media for that park.  The wording of this item, "All Media Types", makes complete sense in this case.

However, the subsequent "All" items below that, such as All Parks and All Albums, are meaningless and unnecessary and confuse the issue.  I would never want to see a list of all photos across all parks.

This can be extended to other categories such as Holidays, where you might not be interested in particular media types all the time and want to see all videos and pictures relating to a particular vacation, in one folder.  But you would never want to see all videos and pictures across all holidays in one list.

Another reason why the All Artist scenario doesn't work for many people is that it is a common requirement to sort all abums from an artist by year, not alphabetically.  That's the way I have my collection organised.  However, if I choose the All Artist item, it gives me a list of albums not filtered by a particular artist but the whole list of hundreds of albums, sorted by year.  This is useless to me!  If I wanted a list of my entire collection of albums I'd create another view that does not have an Artist level and that is sorted alphabetically.

So, in the first instance, a global option to turn the All item off would satisfy people who exclusively use a drill-down method.

Or you could further granularise it, as you've suggested, by putting the option on category or item level.

You mention the DLNA issue and want to know if the All item works differently on these devices, as though this matters.  No, it doesn't work differently, it works in the same way.  The issue is that DLNA devices themeselves, and indeed MC Theater View as a 10ft interface using a remote control, work differently from the main MC interface that uses a mouse, point-and-click, and scroll bars.  Therefore the filtering facility which works well in Panes and split windows in the MC client doesn't translate so well to another interface and it's more important to be able to drill-down and minimise the number of items on the screen that you have to scroll through, and to be clear about exactly what it is you're seeing.

The All item doesn't stop you from using drill-down, it's just an extra item that is not needed, takes valuable space, is too prominent as the first item in a list, and confuses people who are used to drill-downs because of the interface they are using.
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stricko

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Re: Theater View Questions
« Reply #28 on: April 02, 2011, 12:03:50 pm »

One more vote for making it switchable within a view. It's OK for there to be strongly held opinions, at opposite ends of the spectrum, but the jewel in JRMCs crown is its flexibility. Always having the ALL option stands out like a sore thumb for me. I argued in another thread years ago for it to be optional, but I also recognise that there are situations where I would want to keep it.
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rick.ca

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Re: Theater View Questions
« Reply #29 on: April 02, 2011, 05:55:55 pm »

Correct, that's what we're asking for.

The endless argument isn't helping your cause. It's clear, and it always has been, both methods are used and both methods should be supported. Whether the suppression of the "All" item is a trivial embellishment or an essential option has no bearing on the fact the current design supports both methods and provides essential flexibility and consistency. Therefore, all that's needed is an option to suppress the "All" item where it is not wanted. This is exactly the same conclusion you would reach if it were clear 80% of users used only drill-down, but you agreed the 20% using filtering needed to be supported as well.

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I would never want to see a list of all photos across all parks.

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But you would never want to see all videos and pictures across all holidays in one list.

I'm sure everyone has their own examples, and understood the issue from the beginning. The fact we can design a view of this sort and then decide the choice of "All" is irrelevant in the circumstances doesn't make that aspect of the design inappropriate or confusing. Seeing a list of all photos across all parks, for example, is not inherently irrelevant. You made a decision that it is. There's nothing wrong with that, but your choice to make such decisions makes things potentially more complex and confusing, not less.

Most users face a variety of situations where the drill-down method is most appropriate for some, and the filtering method for others. Most of them are probably happy being able to configure a view that works—without having to think about what method they're using. They're probably not bothered by the existence of an "All" item they never use. They might even appreciate that if they ever do need it, it's there and they won't be stuck because they didn't foresee the need. If the requested option were provided, these users will likely happily ignore it, knowing it only adds an element of complexity they don't need.

This is not an argument against the addition of an option. But the context is important in determining exactly how such an option should work, and making the case for adding it...

As I stated in my first post, the point is not that the requested option has no merit. It just can't be justified on the basis the current design is inherently flawed, complicated or confusing. The opposite is true, and what the developers need to be most concerned about is making changes that could have a detrimental effect on those characteristics of the design. A helpful proposal might assume the need has already been established, and focus more on addressing those concerns.

Much has been made of the idea the existing design is not easily understood by new users. Like many other aspects of MC, power and flexibility make it more challenging to configure and use. This is probably high on everyone's list of reasons for using MC, and surely all are prepared to accept this consequence. In the case of configuring Theatre View views, the best foundation a new user can have is an appreciation for the elegance of the filter design. It's simple behaviour is easy to understand, and it's consistency becomes essential when some of the many other configuration options are introduced. If a new user buys the argument the design is fundamentally flawed and this option is the fix, the door to much of the power and flexibility of the design will be slammed shut. That might be okay if they remained happy, but that's unlikely. Most users, sooner or later, are going to need some of that power and flexibility to do what they want to do.
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MrHaugen

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Re: Theater View Questions
« Reply #30 on: April 03, 2011, 07:18:25 am »

What I'm having a problem with, is to understand that someone can have such strong feelings about a simple option that would hinder you in no way at all, and help some people.

First posts, you're against the suggestion. Then you flip and admit that such an option might help some people, but you think that several additional options is needed if it's implemented. People do not see the point in making it so hard, and thus you flip again, and are totally against it. And now, after a number of posts, you admit again that this simple option would be good for a group of people, but you're also concerned about this introducing more complexity. How removing options and simplifying navigation ever can increase the complexity, when the views is designed only to only navigate this way, is beyond me. But I don't care. I'm signing off from this discussion. It's not like this is THE biggest problem in MC. I was just trying to help making the program a tad more flexible for our different users needs.

How people can write so much text just to shoot down such simple and non intrusive ideas is beyond what ever reasons I can think of. Have fun.
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flac.rules

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Re: Theater View Questions
« Reply #31 on: April 04, 2011, 03:39:58 am »

No matter how much this is designed to suite all users, Rick, there is quite a few of us that thinks this all selections is a huge waste. And in some cases it's annoying and time consuming. There is definitively a need for a way to remove this.
People have a habit of hitting things like "All" all the time. Because that gives them... All. This does not only apply to the All selections in the media views. It also applies to the Play All command on the roller. New users hit this things ALL the time, and it's very annoying that you have to tell different people things like this every other weekend party or movie night:

Normal Scenario 1:
Me: Hold on. You're now in the album view. You should never choose that first Item called All xxxxxx.
Alice: Why? I want to access all artists.
Me: That gives you all albums, not all artists. You'll have a hard time looking for your favorite artists here in album view, so please go back to the artist view
Alice: What? Where is the Artist view? This is so confusing. Do you have iTunes or Spotify?

Normal Scenario 2:
Me: Noooooooooo! Never ever hit the Play ALL option. It will overwrite all the tracks we have been adding to playing now this whole evening. ** you Thor! You have to go to Play more option, and then select Add as next to play. Next time, the correct Add command is on the roller.
Thor: What? What's a roller? What ever.. But I don't want to add, I want to play it now.
Me: Then you hit Add as Next to play, and you hit the skip button on the remote.
thor: Aaaaaha. I see. Ok.... This is confusing

A Theater View is supposed to be minimalistic and clean. No unwanted crap that can confuse people. Some people need this options, because they have not the views needed to do without it. But for us that actually have all the views we need, this is things that is just in the way, and it's confusing new users very much.

Yeah, this is a general problem with the program design for me. Its to easy to overwrite playing now. (and not easy enough to update the order of playing now)
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raym

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Re: Theater View Questions
« Reply #32 on: April 04, 2011, 03:48:22 am »

Yeah, this is a general problem with the program design for me. Its to easy to overwrite playing now. (and not easy enough to update the order of playing now)

Absolutely! Here's hoping MC16 brings some improvements to playlist management in general for tview, which should include Playing Now.
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