Topic: Red October & Subtitles (Read 6945 times)

jmone · « **on:** May 21, 2011, 06:37:54 pm »

Red October Subtitle Handling Discussion: This is always a big area of trouble for many and I'm sure the goal is the same for it to "just work". I would "imagine" that for most people the Subtitle logic would be:
1) If Selected Audio Language = Default Language then show FORCED Subs in that Language if Available (eg Avatar to see the eng subs when "Navi" is spoken)
2) If Selected Audio Language =/= Default Language then show Subs in the Default Language if Available (eg foreign film to always see subs)
3) Allow users to select the Subtitle Stream they Want (optional "remember for next time")

At present I "think" there are FOUR components that impact how Subs are getting displayed (or not) in Red October. I have mine working OK for displaying Forced Subs in English with the following setup (*** EDIT doing some testing on a Foreign Lang Blu-ray disc):

1) LAVSplitter: Forced Subs on, Lang Set to ENG (see SubsLAV pic). This provides a separate dedicated Forced Subs track from the splitter that is then selected (see SubsMC16Playback pic)
2) FFDSHOW: I've got it ON, all the various formats ticked and Preferred Lang Set to English and that is about it (see SubsFFDSHOW pic)
3) MC16 --> Tools Options --> Subtitles: ***EDIT: the following logic seems to work best for me "Mode: Show subtitle only if selected subtitle language is different from audio language" "Default language: English" (for me)
4) MC16 Playback Info: All of this can be overwritten when a users selects a subtitle stream manually and it is remembered for next time (which is excellent!).

gvanbrunt · « **Reply #1 on:** May 21, 2011, 07:07:21 pm »

From what I understand Red October would have to set the default lang in both Lav Splitter and ffdshow. The LAV one would be for internal subs and ffdshow would be for external subs. As you mentioned there should be some setting in MC that a user can pick there sub preferences and Red October should set it all up.

What would be really nice is if JRiver would look in the movie directory and do a heuristic type of check to see where the sub is stored if any. If it finds it, MC should set the path to the subs. I find that ffdshow's built-in sub location way too rigid to "just work" no matter how you set it. If JRiver could pull that off, that would really go a long way to gets subs working easilly for everyone.

jmone · « **Reply #2 on:** May 21, 2011, 07:33:02 pm »

I should say that my testing is really based on Blu-ray / Blu Rips (as this is the bulk of my collection) though I do have some subs with SD material. Testing now with Pans Labyrinth.

rick.ca · « **Reply #3 on:** May 21, 2011, 09:55:27 pm »

Quote from: jmone on May 21, 2011, 06:37:54 pm

Red October Subtitle Handling Discussion...

This doesn't seem to help me get them working for MKV files. I seem to recall making the same settings for the LAVSplitter in the past. But in recent builds I don't see any way to access it's interface, whether Red October is being used or not. I believe I've set ffdshow and MC the same way. As for the Stream Selection, my problem seems to be that subtitles are not being displayed even though it has been selected.

But is there anything for me to investigate here? With the few files I have of other types with subtitles, I've had to tinker with ffdshow settings to get some of them to work. Considering everything worked fine before all this started, maybe I should just consider this whole automatic thing a dud and wait for the ability to custom configure to return. It seems pointless if there's always going to be some exception that requires it be turned-off anyway. $:-\$

jmone · « **Reply #4 on:** May 22, 2011, 03:05:53 am »

Here is an example of DVD Subs (EIA-608) being displayed when they should not and there appears to way to "turn them off" in this set of filters as they don't appear as a stream from LAVSplitter, and you can not config the decoder or renderer in this case (MS Ones). EDIT: I think they are Line 21 subs and I don't understand why they are no just appearing and are not displayed in the DirectShow filter streams?

Code: [Select]

Filter Graph Info:

    Filter 'Enhanced Video Renderer'
        CLSID: {FA10746C-9B63-4B6C-BC49-FC300EA5F256}
        Host: c:\windows\syswow64\evr.dll
        Input Pin 'EVR Input0'
            Connected to pin 'Video Output 1' of filter 'Microsoft DTV-DVD Video Decoder'
            Major type MEDIATYPE_Video  Sub type MEDIASUBTYPE_NV12, Format type FORMAT_VideoInfo2
        Input Pin 'EVR Input1'
            Connected to pin 'XForm Out' of filter 'Line 21 Decoder'
            Major type MEDIATYPE_Video  Sub type MEDIASUBTYPE_AYUV, Format type FORMAT_VideoInfo

    Filter 'JRiver Audio Renderer'
        CLSID: {A4002F8E-510F-442C-8AD3-F9C7B23FB394}
        Host: 
        Input Pin 'In'
            Connected to pin 'Out' of filter 'ffdshow Audio Decoder (auto-configured)'
            Major type MEDIATYPE_Audio  Sub type MEDIASUBTYPE_IEEE_FLOAT, Format type FORMAT_WaveFormatEx

    Filter 'Line 21 Decoder'
        CLSID: {E4206432-01A1-4BEE-B3E1-3702C8EDC574}
        Host: c:\windows\syswow64\quartz.dll
        Input Pin 'XForm In'
            Connected to pin '~Line21 Output' of filter 'Microsoft DTV-DVD Video Decoder'
            Major type MEDIATYPE_AUXLine21Data  Sub type MEDIASUBTYPE_Line21_GOPPacket, Format type FORMAT_None
        Output Pin 'XForm Out'
            Connected to pin 'EVR Input1' of filter 'Enhanced Video Renderer'
            Major type MEDIATYPE_Video  Sub type MEDIASUBTYPE_AYUV, Format type FORMAT_VideoInfo

    Filter 'ffdshow Audio Decoder (auto-configured)'
        CLSID: {0F40E1E5-4F79-4988-B1A9-CC98794E6B55}
        Host: C:\Users\Mum and Dad\AppData\Roaming\J River\Media Center 16\Plugins\ffdshow\ffdshow.ax
        Output Pin 'Out'
            Connected to pin 'In' of filter 'JRiver Audio Renderer'
            Major type MEDIATYPE_Audio  Sub type MEDIASUBTYPE_IEEE_FLOAT, Format type FORMAT_WaveFormatEx
        Input Pin 'In'
            Connected to pin 'Output' of filter 'JRiver Media Proxy Audio'
            Major type MEDIATYPE_Audio  Sub type MEDIASUBTYPE_DOLBY_AC3, Format type FORMAT_WaveFormatEx

    Filter 'Microsoft DTV-DVD Video Decoder'
        CLSID: {212690FB-83E5-4526-8FD7-74478B7939CD}
        Host: c:\windows\syswow64\msmpeg2vdec.dll
        Input Pin 'Video Input'
            Connected to pin 'Output' of filter 'JRiver Media Proxy Video'
            Major type MEDIATYPE_Video  Sub type MEDIASUBTYPE_MPEG2_VIDEO, Format type FORMAT_MPEG2_VIDEO
        Input Pin 'Subpicture Input'
        Output Pin 'Video Output 1'
            Connected to pin 'EVR Input0' of filter 'Enhanced Video Renderer'
            Major type MEDIATYPE_Video  Sub type MEDIASUBTYPE_NV12, Format type FORMAT_VideoInfo2
        Output Pin '~Line21 Output'
            Connected to pin 'XForm In' of filter 'Line 21 Decoder'
            Major type MEDIATYPE_AUXLine21Data  Sub type MEDIASUBTYPE_Line21_GOPPacket, Format type FORMAT_None

    Filter 'JRiver Media Proxy Audio'
        CLSID: {A4207487-E7D8-406B-9882-B66370DE2492}
        Host: 
        Input Pin 'Input'
            Connected to pin 'Audio' of filter 'LAV Source Splitter'
            Major type MEDIATYPE_Audio  Sub type MEDIASUBTYPE_DOLBY_AC3, Format type FORMAT_WaveFormatEx
        Output Pin 'Output'
            Connected to pin 'In' of filter 'ffdshow Audio Decoder (auto-configured)'
            Major type MEDIATYPE_Audio  Sub type MEDIASUBTYPE_DOLBY_AC3, Format type FORMAT_WaveFormatEx

    Filter 'JRiver Media Proxy Video'
        CLSID: {A4207487-E7D8-406B-9882-B66370DE2492}
        Host: 
        Input Pin 'Input'
            Connected to pin 'Video' of filter 'LAV Source Splitter'
            Major type MEDIATYPE_Video  Sub type MEDIASUBTYPE_MPEG2_VIDEO, Format type FORMAT_MPEG2_VIDEO
        Output Pin 'Output'
            Connected to pin 'Video Input' of filter 'Microsoft DTV-DVD Video Decoder'
            Major type MEDIATYPE_Video  Sub type MEDIASUBTYPE_MPEG2_VIDEO, Format type FORMAT_MPEG2_VIDEO

    Filter 'LAV Source Splitter'
        CLSID: {B98D13E7-55DB-4385-A33D-09FD1BA26338}
        Host: C:\Users\Mum and Dad\AppData\Roaming\J River\Media Center 16\Plugins\LAVFilters\LAVSplitter.ax
        Output Pin 'Video'
            Connected to pin 'Input' of filter 'JRiver Media Proxy Video'
            Major type MEDIATYPE_Video  Sub type MEDIASUBTYPE_MPEG2_VIDEO, Format type FORMAT_MPEG2_VIDEO
        Output Pin 'Audio'
            Connected to pin 'Input' of filter 'JRiver Media Proxy Audio'
            Major type MEDIATYPE_Audio  Sub type MEDIASUBTYPE_DOLBY_AC3, Format type FORMAT_WaveFormatEx

jmone · « **Reply #5 on:** May 22, 2011, 03:40:15 am »

Testing using Blu-ray subs is interesting:

Forced Subs: Tested on District 9 and Avatar. Works fine with the settings in the first post with both the Blu-ray Structure, and when the content is muxed to MKV, M2TS etc

Foreign Lang: Tested on Pan's Labyrinth. Mmm the logic on this one will be tough to "automagically" solve. At this point the MC Subtitle Mode of "Show subtitle only if selected subtitle language is different from audio language". As you can see in pic "pans1.png" it has
* 2 Audio Tracks - DTS-HD in Spanish, and DTS in English
* 4 Subtitle Tracks - 3 original and 1 FORCED created by LAVSplitter

Result 1: With the settings above, the playback is (as shown in pic "pans1.png") the English DTS Track (which is actually the Directors Commentary) and Forced Subs (which are none)
Result 2: When I remux and remove the English DTS Commentary Track, then the logic correctly grabs the full English PGS subs (see pic pans2.png).
Result 3: When I remux to MKV with Another EAC3to GUI removing the English DTS Commentary Track, then I get a similar result though the sub track used also includes subs describing the non spoken audio events "eg Soldiers Laughing" (see pic pans3.png)

Another complicating factor is that many of the remuxers are not consistant in the addition of the Language flags on the Audio / Subs and some try to create forced subs as well. It you have a look at the three pics you can see how the streams are labeled differently in the MKV versions making logic even harder. How is the system meant to know that the Audio track is not English in this case?

jmone · « **Reply #6 on:** May 22, 2011, 03:48:26 am »

Suggestion (Part 1):

I originally thought that you would need to change the settings in LAVSplitter/FFDSHOW to match the user options set in MC16....but I'm note so sure you need to. How about a config that as per post 1 in this thread has
1) LAVSplitter to create the additional Forced Sub stream
2) FFDSHOW set to render all subs

The logic in MC16 then selects WHAT Audio and Subtitle stream is played. While this worked for me on the Forced Subs example (most of my Subtitle display will be these), it was not a great outcome with my Foreign Language test disk (Pans).

jmone · « **Reply #7 on:** May 22, 2011, 04:20:09 am »

Suggestion (Part 2): (Better) Menu for Stream Selection see pic.

No matter how good the "automagic" subtitle selecting logic gets, the user is going to have to be able to select their preference at some point. This is easy with DVD's, just press the "Menu" button and select each of the desired streams. It is also OK in Std View as you can just right click. It is not so good in TheaterView (you can use the arrows keys but it is a PITA and not very intuitive). How about during direct show playback, a press of the "Menu" button brings up a TheaterView friendly selection menu for the various streams (you could even add titles once Nevcairiel adds these for blu ray playback) somethink like below (but as you can see my graphical side will win no awards - I'm sure JR will do much better)!

Now to explain the "[X] Remember settings for next time" leverages off one great feature of MC, the ability to store you preferred playback streams on a per movie basis in the Library Field "Playback Info". This works really well in that once I set what tracks I want, MC will playback this the sameway the next time. Eg I only need to set the correct Audio and Sub track once for "Pans" and all subsequent playback is fine.

**EDIT: This menu should also enable you to toggle the Line21 subs ON and Off as well

TheLion · « **Reply #8 on:** May 22, 2011, 12:20:13 pm »

Another wish for subtitle control - LAV Splitter allows to generate a "forced sub" stream. I want/need/urge/beg you to implement an option to make this stream the default stream.

Osho · « **Reply #9 on:** May 22, 2011, 01:10:35 pm »

One more request regarding subtitles (also reported as a bug in .94 and .95 build threads): for personal videos, the time-stamp (which is in a subtitle) should not be shown by the default.

Osho

Alex B · « **Reply #10 on:** May 22, 2011, 01:33:52 pm »

An old sample file (Yaobing has used it for testing in the past): http://rapidshare.com/files/208477331/Whosafraid.zip

Quote from: Alex B on March 12, 2009, 03:45:48 pm

Yaobing,

If you are interested in seeing an avi file with multiple audio streams I created a 30s sample clip of my example avi file. It has three AC3 mono audio streams. I included also the idx + sub/rar subtitles (the subtitles are in two different languages). The sample clip is available here (it's about 15 MB).

The three audio streams are selectable and work fine, but there is no way to change the subtitle language or hide the automatically displayed subtitles.

jmone · « **Reply #11 on:** May 22, 2011, 03:30:45 pm »

Quote from: TheLion on May 22, 2011, 12:20:13 pm

Another wish for subtitle control - LAV Splitter allows to generate a "forced sub" stream. I want/need/urge/beg you to implement an option to make this stream the default stream.

Quote from: Osho on May 22, 2011, 01:10:35 pm

One more request regarding subtitles (also reported as a bug in .94 and .95 build threads): for personal videos, the time-stamp (which is in a subtitle) should not be shown by the default.

Osho

I thought that this was the std install but ? on the Lang??? (but I've had LAVSplitter installed for so long I can't confirm). Osho This setting also "fixes" your time-stamp subtitle display.

jmone · « **Reply #12 on:** May 22, 2011, 04:19:32 pm »

Quote from: Alex B on May 22, 2011, 01:33:52 pm

An old sample file (Yaobing has used it for testing in the past): http://rapidshare.com/files/208477331/Whosafraid.zip

The three audio streams are selectable and work fine, but there is no way to change the subtitle language or hide the automatically displayed subtitles.

I double checked with Nevcairiel on this. External Subtitle Files are ignored by splitters (hence you don't see them in the Stream Menu). Display support for these are either in the Player, but MC16 does not have it's own subtitle rendering (like say MPC-HC) or hence the decoder like FFDSHOW. The earlier OSD suggestion to enable MC users to dynamically turn On/Off FFDSHOW subtitles will fix part of your issue. I have no idea however to get FFDSHOW to swap subtitles between Languages.

Alex B · « **Reply #13 on:** May 22, 2011, 05:15:15 pm »

ffdshow has the "default language" setting for subtitles. It works with my sample file. It can be used for changing the subtitle language even when the file is playing.

Osho · « **Reply #14 on:** May 22, 2011, 09:06:55 pm »

Quote from: jmone on May 22, 2011, 03:30:45 pm

I thought that this was the std install but ? on the Lang??? (but I've had LAVSplitter installed for so long I can't confirm). Osho This setting also "fixes" your time-stamp subtitle display.

Thanks for helping. I couldn't make out what setting you are referring to. The image shows as too tiny on my computer to be legible.

Thanks,
Osho

jmone · « **Reply #15 on:** May 22, 2011, 09:41:03 pm »

Quote from: Alex B on May 22, 2011, 01:33:52 pm

An old sample file (Yaobing has used it for testing in the past): http://rapidshare.com/files/208477331/Whosafraid.zip

The three audio streams are selectable and work fine, but there is no way to change the subtitle language or hide the automatically displayed subtitles.

Quote from: Osho on May 22, 2011, 09:06:55 pm

Thanks for helping. I couldn't make out what setting you are referring to. The image shows as too tiny on my computer to be legible.

Thanks,
Osho

Hi Alex, I remuxed you sample file into an MKV and I can now select the subs just fine using LAVSplitter with the following settings.

These may also work for you as well Osho

While I'm comfortable with the handling of the Blu-ray Subs (in the Blue Box) - I really don't have any other files with subs so you may want to test the various settings in the Red Box and see what happens. Keep in mind this will only work with Subs in the Container (eg MKV, TS etc) NOT external subs.

bspachman · « **Reply #16 on:** May 23, 2011, 10:23:52 pm »

I've been following this (and the other RedOct threads) with great interest. I've tried to report a bug here or there, but frankly, a lot of this discussion is above my head

However, Nathan is right--subtitles are a huge problem for me. Although most of my video library consists of English audio, I always try to include English subtitles. Foreign movies (for me, at least) require English subtitles. I've never had much luck with MC and subtitle playback, but since the move to RedOctober, I now have no luck at all.

I can't tell if it's a problem with my file creation, my MC settings, or settings in the filters. I'm hoping that as RedOctober stabilizes, it will at least eliminate the last two areas as likely problems. Here's a concrete example:

As reported by CCCPInsurgent:

Code: [Select]

Media Information of: V:\Movies\Compressed\Lives of Others, The\Lives of Others, The.mp4

General:
Filename: Lives of Others, The.mp4
Filesize: 1.41 GiB
Format: MPEG-4
PlayTime: 02:17:43.424
1 video stream(s), 2 audio stream(s), 1 subtitle stream(s).

Video Stream 0:
Length: 02:17:35.205
Frames: 197927, 23.976 fps, 1213 Kbps 
Codec: avc1 (Family: )
Dimensions: 720x304, AR: 2.35

Audio Stream 0:
Codec: AAC LC-SBR, A_AAC/MPEG4/LC/SBR, AAC Low Complexity with Spectral Band Replication
Bitrate: 164 Kbps
Bitrate Mode: VBR
Sampling Rate: 48 KHz
Channel(s): 6 channel
Resolution: 16 bits per sample

Audio Stream 1:
Codec: AAC LC-SBR, A_AAC/MPEG4/LC/SBR, AAC Low Complexity with Spectral Band Replication
Bitrate: 81 Kbps
Bitrate Mode: VBR
Sampling Rate: 48 KHz
Channel(s): 2 channel
Resolution: 16 bits per sample

Subtitle Stream 0:
Title: English
Language: English
Codec: subp, The same subtitle format used on DVDs

The filters as reported by MC16.0.95:

Code: [Select]

Filter Graph Info:

    Filter 'Enhanced Video Renderer'
        CLSID: {FA10746C-9B63-4B6C-BC49-FC300EA5F256}
        Host: c:\windows\system32\evr.dll
        Input Pin 'EVR Input0'
            Connected to pin 'Out' of filter 'ffdshow Video Decoder (auto-configured)'
            Major type MEDIATYPE_Video  Sub type MEDIASUBTYPE_YV12, Format type FORMAT_VideoInfo2
        Input Pin 'EVR Input1'

    Filter 'JRiver Audio Renderer'
        CLSID: {A4002F8E-510F-442C-8AD3-F9C7B23FB394}
        Host: 
        Input Pin 'In'
            Connected to pin 'Out' of filter 'ffdshow Audio Decoder (auto-configured)'
            Major type MEDIATYPE_Audio  Sub type MEDIASUBTYPE_IEEE_FLOAT, Format type FORMAT_WaveFormatEx

    Filter 'ffdshow Video Decoder (auto-configured)'
        CLSID: {04FE9017-F873-410E-871E-AB91661A4EF7}
        Host: c:\program files\j river\media center 16\plugins\ffdshow\ffdshow.ax
        Input Pin 'In'
            Connected to pin 'Output' of filter 'JRiver Media Proxy Video'
            Major type MEDIATYPE_Video  Sub type Unknown GUID Name: {31435641-0000-0010-8000-00AA00389B71}, Format type FORMAT_MPEG2_VIDEO
        Output Pin 'Out'
            Connected to pin 'EVR Input0' of filter 'Enhanced Video Renderer'
            Major type MEDIATYPE_Video  Sub type MEDIASUBTYPE_YV12, Format type FORMAT_VideoInfo2
        Input Pin 'In Text'
            Connected to pin 'Subtitle' of filter 'LAV Source Splitter'
            Major type Unknown GUID Name: {E487EB08-6B26-4BE9-9DD3-993434D313FD}  Sub type Unknown GUID Name: {F7239E31-9599-4E43-8DD5-FBAF75CF37F1}, Format type Unknown GUID Name: {F7239E31-9599-4E43-8DD5-FBAF75CF37F1}
        Input Pin 'In Text 2'

    Filter 'ffdshow Audio Decoder (auto-configured)'
        CLSID: {0F40E1E5-4F79-4988-B1A9-CC98794E6B55}
        Host: C:\Users\Brad\AppData\Roaming\J River\Media Center 16\Plugins\ffdshow\ffdshow.ax
        Output Pin 'Out'
            Connected to pin 'In' of filter 'JRiver Audio Renderer'
            Major type MEDIATYPE_Audio  Sub type MEDIASUBTYPE_IEEE_FLOAT, Format type FORMAT_WaveFormatEx
        Input Pin 'In'
            Connected to pin 'Output' of filter 'JRiver Media Proxy Audio'
            Major type MEDIATYPE_Audio  Sub type Unknown GUID Name: {000000FF-0000-0010-8000-00AA00389B71}, Format type FORMAT_WaveFormatEx

    Filter 'JRiver Media Proxy Video'
        CLSID: {A4207487-E7D8-406B-9882-B66370DE2492}
        Host: 
        Input Pin 'Input'
            Connected to pin 'Video' of filter 'LAV Source Splitter'
            Major type MEDIATYPE_Video  Sub type Unknown GUID Name: {31435641-0000-0010-8000-00AA00389B71}, Format type FORMAT_MPEG2_VIDEO
        Output Pin 'Output'
            Connected to pin 'In' of filter 'ffdshow Video Decoder (auto-configured)'
            Major type MEDIATYPE_Video  Sub type Unknown GUID Name: {31435641-0000-0010-8000-00AA00389B71}, Format type FORMAT_MPEG2_VIDEO

    Filter 'JRiver Media Proxy Audio'
        CLSID: {A4207487-E7D8-406B-9882-B66370DE2492}
        Host: 
        Input Pin 'Input'
            Connected to pin 'Audio' of filter 'LAV Source Splitter'
            Major type MEDIATYPE_Audio  Sub type Unknown GUID Name: {000000FF-0000-0010-8000-00AA00389B71}, Format type FORMAT_WaveFormatEx
        Output Pin 'Output'
            Connected to pin 'In' of filter 'ffdshow Audio Decoder (auto-configured)'
            Major type MEDIATYPE_Audio  Sub type Unknown GUID Name: {000000FF-0000-0010-8000-00AA00389B71}, Format type FORMAT_WaveFormatEx

    Filter 'LAV Source Splitter'
        CLSID: {B98D13E7-55DB-4385-A33D-09FD1BA26338}
        Host: C:\Users\Brad\AppData\Roaming\J River\Media Center 16\Plugins\LAVFilters\LAVSplitter.ax
        Output Pin 'Video'
            Connected to pin 'Input' of filter 'JRiver Media Proxy Video'
            Major type MEDIATYPE_Video  Sub type Unknown GUID Name: {31435641-0000-0010-8000-00AA00389B71}, Format type FORMAT_MPEG2_VIDEO
        Output Pin 'Audio'
            Connected to pin 'Input' of filter 'JRiver Media Proxy Audio'
            Major type MEDIATYPE_Audio  Sub type Unknown GUID Name: {000000FF-0000-0010-8000-00AA00389B71}, Format type FORMAT_WaveFormatEx
        Output Pin 'Subtitle'
            Connected to pin 'In Text' of filter 'ffdshow Video Decoder (auto-configured)'
            Major type Unknown GUID Name: {E487EB08-6B26-4BE9-9DD3-993434D313FD}  Sub type Unknown GUID Name: {F7239E31-9599-4E43-8DD5-FBAF75CF37F1}, Format type Unknown GUID Name: {F7239E31-9599-4E43-8DD5-FBAF75CF37F1}

MC options include:
- Red October enabled
- Default audio language: English
- Subtitle mode: Do not show subtitles
- Subtitle default language: English
- The only filters knowingly installed prior to MC16 (RedOctober builds) were LAVFilters--no stand-alone CCCP or ffdshow filters

The stream menu (right-click on the display window) shows options of "No Subtitles" and "English (vobsub)". Neither option shows subtitles. Changing the MC Subtitle mode option to either of the 2 "Show subtitle" options has no effect.

This particular file was generated with Nero Recode, but more recent files have been generated with Handbrake, and all exhibit the same symptoms.

Only a few of my foreign language movies show subtitles, and in those cases, I think they have been burned into the image, since I don't see a subtitle stream option on those movies.

Can anyone give me thoughts on:
- Subtitle creation (mp4 container--they seem to work better for my Windows/Mac cross-platform environment)
- MC options
- Filters--RedOctober, or not...

Thanks!
brad

jmone · « **Reply #17 on:** May 24, 2011, 05:13:39 am »

Well it really is over to JR now on what they can do but in summary:

1. Subtitle Types: You have embedded subs where you need the splitter to expose them as a separate stream. You also have subtitle files that are separate to the main file.

2. Exposing Subtitles: For embedded subs these are split out by the splitter and I'd recommend that LAVSplitter is configures to expose all subs including generating the Forced Subs option. For subtitle files you will need to enable the support for all the options in FFDSHOW

3. Controlling Subtitle Selection: MC will need to both have a default selection based on the comparison of the Language options between the audio track and the subtitle track but will need to also let the users in a GUI friendly way to select what they want when the logic fails (and it will). Selection of the tracks exposed from LAVSplitter should be OK but I have no idea how you will display and controll those from FFDSHOW read from the sidecar subtitle files.

Once some of this is implemented we can test and suggest.

Matt · « **Reply #18 on:** May 24, 2011, 11:28:55 am »

Next build will have better subtitle handling with Red October.

There are two primary subtitle approaches:

1) Subtitles exposed by the splitter which are common in MKV, DVD, etc.

2) Subtitles embedded in the video or saved in a side-car file

#1 should work nicely already. When playing a video, the "Stream Selection" menu offers selection of subtitles. For clarity, this will change so that subtitles appear in their own menu "Subtitles". The functionality, which is already fairly complete, will remain mostly unchanged. The on screen display for selecting subtitles will be simplified (to work like DVD already works).

If #1 is not available, #2 will be used. This will offer the user a simple on or off in the Subtitles menu. Subtitles will default to off, and turning the subtitles on will be a play-time only setting. At a later date we'll try to make this save per-file like we already do for #1.

rick.ca · « **Reply #19 on:** May 24, 2011, 08:19:56 pm »

With build 96, my MKV files now display subtitles. But they did not at first, so there my be some significance in what I did prior to them working...

I tested quite a few before concluding there was still a problem. I was unable to access the LAV Splitter configuration, and noticed something odd in the graphs for these files...

Code: [Select]

    Filter 'LAV Source Splitter'
        CLSID: {B98D13E7-55DB-4385-A33D-09FD1BA26338}
        Host: C:\Users\Rick\AppData\Roaming\J River\Media Center 16\Plugins\lav\LAVSplitter.ax
        Output Pin 'Video'
            Connected to pin 'Input' of filter 'JRiver Media Proxy Video'
            Major type MEDIATYPE_Video  Sub type Unknown GUID Name: {44495658-0000-0010-8000-00AA00389B71}, Format type FORMAT_VideoInfo2
        Output Pin 'Audio'
            Connected to pin 'Input' of filter 'JRiver Media Proxy Audio'
            Major type MEDIATYPE_Audio  Sub type Unknown GUID Name: {00000055-0000-0010-8000-00AA00389B71}, Format type FORMAT_WaveFormatEx
        Output Pin 'Subtitle'

—there's no connection information for Output Pin 'Subtitle'. So I downloaded an registered the LAV Splitter manually. After doing so, I was able to get it's configuration menu, but didn't see any changes necessary there. Before I had investigated further (namely, to re-check a graph), I detached the display. As soon as I did, subtitles appeared, and remained regardless of the display state. It then worked for all the files. So I don't know whether registering another LAV Splitter did something, or changing the display shocked something into working. $:-\$

The working graph now looks like this (again, just the LAV Splitter section)...

Code: [Select]

    Filter 'LAV Source Splitter'
        CLSID: {B98D13E7-55DB-4385-A33D-09FD1BA26338}
        Host: C:\Users\Rick\AppData\Roaming\J River\Media Center 16\Plugins\lav\LAVSplitter.ax
        Output Pin 'Video'
            Connected to pin 'Input' of filter 'JRiver Media Proxy Video'
            Major type MEDIATYPE_Video  Sub type Unknown GUID Name: {44495658-0000-0010-8000-00AA00389B71}, Format type FORMAT_VideoInfo2
        Output Pin 'Audio'
            Connected to pin 'Input' of filter 'JRiver Media Proxy Audio'
            Major type MEDIATYPE_Audio  Sub type Unknown GUID Name: {00000055-0000-0010-8000-00AA00389B71}, Format type FORMAT_WaveFormatEx
        Output Pin 'Subtitle'
            Connected to pin 'In Text' of filter 'ffdshow Video Decoder (auto-configured)'
            Major type Unknown GUID Name: {E487EB08-6B26-4BE9-9DD3-993434D313FD}  Sub type Unknown GUID Name: {87C0B230-03A8-4FDF-8010-B27A5848200D}, Format type Unknown GUID Name: {87C0B230-03A8-4FDF-8010-B27A5848200D}

I believe all the MKV files for which subtitles did not display and now do correctly are ones where I simply muxed a SRT and video (in most cases, likely an AVI) into an MKV. In the interface, these are referred to as txt [default]. There are some other MKV's I've created from DVD rips, the subtitles of which are referred to as English (vobsub) [default]. Unfortunately, all those are displayed in black with a white outline (or shadow—I'm not sure which it's supposed to be) and are essentially unreadable.

I'm not sure whether the font is controlled by settings in FFDShow or DirectVobSub. The subtitles section of the FFDShow configuration for JR_DecodeVideo_PlaybackPCM has disappeared, so I guess that's not it. Or maybe it is and that's why it doesn't work. I don't see anything the the DirectVobSub settings that would make any difference. Red October no longer seems to be optional, so I'm unable to try anything else.

bspachman · « **Reply #20 on:** May 24, 2011, 10:10:08 pm »

Improvements! (but...)

All of the following is with MC's video options configured:
- Red October enabled
- Default audio language: English
- Subtitle mode: Do not show subtitles
- Subtitle default language: English
- The only filters knowingly installed prior to MC16 (RedOctober builds) were LAVFilters--no stand-alone CCCP or ffdshow filters

------------

- I was able to reliably crash MC by having subtitles active in one mp4 file, then double-clicking on a different mp4 file in playing now. Log and graph of the playing file (prior to the crash) attached to this post.

- I played a series of MKV files, only one of which had subtitles embedded. However the other 5 files showed an 'On/Off' option in the subtitle submenu. Without subtitles in the file, I would not have expected to see a subtitle menu.

- I am still having a great deal of difficulty displaying subs in various MP4 files. LAVSplitter shows that there are embedded (vobsub) stream(s), but choosing the streams via the subtitle submenu seems to give me 3 outcomes:
* No effect at all. Choosing the various subtitle stream options never shows subtitles.
* Works fine (but this appears to be the rarest case).
* A single subtitle appears, then no more.

- Even when subtitles do appear to work, they are frequently too low, with multi-line subs disappearing off the screen. I don't appear to have any access on any way to modify their position (or appearance).

Thoughts and advice welcome...
brad

Hendrik · « **Reply #21 on:** May 25, 2011, 02:54:41 am »

Quote from: bspachman on May 24, 2011, 10:10:08 pm

- I am still having a great deal of difficulty displaying subs in various MP4 files. LAVSplitter shows that there are embedded (vobsub) stream(s), but choosing the streams via the subtitle submenu seems to give me 3 outcomes:
* No effect at all. Choosing the various subtitle stream options never shows subtitles.
* Works fine (but this appears to be the rarest case).
* A single subtitle appears, then no more.

ffdshow has a known bug with VOBSUBs disappearing and stopping to show completely. It seems rather consistent, and some specific circumstance in a sub frame will most likely cause it to break, but the ffdshow devs have not cared to comment or tried to fix it for years now.

This will definitely account for 3), and possibly for 1) as well.

jmone · « **Reply #22 on:** May 25, 2011, 07:13:33 am »

Couple of Odd things:
1) Blu-ray: Red October selected the full English Subs not the "Forced" English Subs
2) Embedded Subs (DVD Rip): MC Menu said they were "OFF" but they were being displayed. I'd select "ON" and they would still be displayed, but when I selected "OFF" they would then go away.

jmone · « **Reply #23 on:** May 25, 2011, 09:38:25 pm »

Quote from: jmone on May 25, 2011, 07:13:33 am

2) Embedded Subs (DVD Rip): MC Menu said they were "OFF" but they were being displayed. I'd select "ON" and they would still be displayed, but when I selected "OFF" they would then go away.

Here is the filter info on this one, as reported the Subtitle "OFF" is not respected when starting playback but does work if you Select "ON" then "OFF". Also I see that this setting is not stored in the "Playback Info" field like with other stream selections.

Code: [Select]

Filter Graph Info:

    Filter 'JRiver Audio Renderer'
        CLSID: {A4002F8E-510F-442C-8AD3-F9C7B23FB394}
        Host: 
        Input Pin 'In'
            Connected to pin 'Out' of filter 'ffdshow Audio Decoder (auto-configured)'
            Major type MEDIATYPE_Audio  Sub type MEDIASUBTYPE_IEEE_FLOAT, Format type FORMAT_WaveFormatEx

    Filter 'Enhanced Video Renderer'
        CLSID: {FA10746C-9B63-4B6C-BC49-FC300EA5F256}
        Host: c:\windows\syswow64\evr.dll
        Input Pin 'EVR Input0'
            Connected to pin 'Video Output 1' of filter 'Microsoft DTV-DVD Video Decoder'
            Major type MEDIATYPE_Video  Sub type MEDIASUBTYPE_NV12, Format type FORMAT_VideoInfo2
        Input Pin 'EVR Input1'
            Connected to pin 'XForm Out' of filter 'Line 21 Decoder'
            Major type MEDIATYPE_Video  Sub type MEDIASUBTYPE_AYUV, Format type FORMAT_VideoInfo

    Filter 'Line 21 Decoder'
        CLSID: {E4206432-01A1-4BEE-B3E1-3702C8EDC574}
        Host: c:\windows\syswow64\quartz.dll
        Input Pin 'XForm In'
            Connected to pin '~Line21 Output' of filter 'Microsoft DTV-DVD Video Decoder'
            Major type MEDIATYPE_AUXLine21Data  Sub type MEDIASUBTYPE_Line21_GOPPacket, Format type FORMAT_None
        Output Pin 'XForm Out'
            Connected to pin 'EVR Input1' of filter 'Enhanced Video Renderer'
            Major type MEDIATYPE_Video  Sub type MEDIASUBTYPE_AYUV, Format type FORMAT_VideoInfo

    Filter 'ffdshow Audio Decoder (auto-configured)'
        CLSID: {0F40E1E5-4F79-4988-B1A9-CC98794E6B55}
        Host: C:\Users\Mum and Dad\AppData\Roaming\J River\Media Center 16\Plugins\ffdshow\ffdshow.ax
        Output Pin 'Out'
            Connected to pin 'In' of filter 'JRiver Audio Renderer'
            Major type MEDIATYPE_Audio  Sub type MEDIASUBTYPE_IEEE_FLOAT, Format type FORMAT_WaveFormatEx
        Input Pin 'In'
            Connected to pin 'Output' of filter 'JRiver Media Proxy Audio'
            Major type MEDIATYPE_Audio  Sub type MEDIASUBTYPE_DOLBY_AC3, Format type FORMAT_WaveFormatEx

    Filter 'Microsoft DTV-DVD Video Decoder'
        CLSID: {212690FB-83E5-4526-8FD7-74478B7939CD}
        Host: c:\windows\syswow64\msmpeg2vdec.dll
        Input Pin 'Video Input'
            Connected to pin 'Output' of filter 'JRiver Media Proxy Video'
            Major type MEDIATYPE_Video  Sub type MEDIASUBTYPE_MPEG2_VIDEO, Format type FORMAT_MPEG2_VIDEO
        Input Pin 'Subpicture Input'
        Output Pin 'Video Output 1'
            Connected to pin 'EVR Input0' of filter 'Enhanced Video Renderer'
            Major type MEDIATYPE_Video  Sub type MEDIASUBTYPE_NV12, Format type FORMAT_VideoInfo2
        Output Pin '~Line21 Output'
            Connected to pin 'XForm In' of filter 'Line 21 Decoder'
            Major type MEDIATYPE_AUXLine21Data  Sub type MEDIASUBTYPE_Line21_GOPPacket, Format type FORMAT_None

    Filter 'JRiver Media Proxy Audio'
        CLSID: {A4207487-E7D8-406B-9882-B66370DE2492}
        Host: 
        Input Pin 'Input'
            Connected to pin 'Audio' of filter 'LAV Source Splitter'
            Major type MEDIATYPE_Audio  Sub type MEDIASUBTYPE_DOLBY_AC3, Format type FORMAT_WaveFormatEx
        Output Pin 'Output'
            Connected to pin 'In' of filter 'ffdshow Audio Decoder (auto-configured)'
            Major type MEDIATYPE_Audio  Sub type MEDIASUBTYPE_DOLBY_AC3, Format type FORMAT_WaveFormatEx

    Filter 'JRiver Media Proxy Video'
        CLSID: {A4207487-E7D8-406B-9882-B66370DE2492}
        Host: 
        Input Pin 'Input'
            Connected to pin 'Video' of filter 'LAV Source Splitter'
            Major type MEDIATYPE_Video  Sub type MEDIASUBTYPE_MPEG2_VIDEO, Format type FORMAT_MPEG2_VIDEO
        Output Pin 'Output'
            Connected to pin 'Video Input' of filter 'Microsoft DTV-DVD Video Decoder'
            Major type MEDIATYPE_Video  Sub type MEDIASUBTYPE_MPEG2_VIDEO, Format type FORMAT_MPEG2_VIDEO

    Filter 'LAV Source Splitter'
        CLSID: {B98D13E7-55DB-4385-A33D-09FD1BA26338}
        Host: C:\Users\Mum and Dad\AppData\Roaming\J River\Media Center 16\Plugins\lav\LAVSplitter.ax
        Output Pin 'Video'
            Connected to pin 'Input' of filter 'JRiver Media Proxy Video'
            Major type MEDIATYPE_Video  Sub type MEDIASUBTYPE_MPEG2_VIDEO, Format type FORMAT_MPEG2_VIDEO
        Output Pin 'Audio'
            Connected to pin 'Input' of filter 'JRiver Media Proxy Audio'
            Major type MEDIATYPE_Audio  Sub type MEDIASUBTYPE_DOLBY_AC3, Format type FORMAT_WaveFormatEx

**EDIT this is not consistant on all PC's - 1 works fine

Osho · « **Reply #24 on:** May 25, 2011, 11:46:11 pm »

Quote from: jmone on May 22, 2011, 09:41:03 pm

These may also work for you as well Osho

Hi jmone,

How do I get to the LAV Splitter window that is shown in your attachment. When I play my personal HD videos (MTS or M2TS files), I see that LAV Filter is being used. But, when I click on Directshow Filters -> LAV Splitter, I don't see any window come up.

EDIT: Here is the filter graph.

Code: [Select]

Filter Graph Info:

    Filter 'JRiver Audio Renderer'
        CLSID: {A4002F8E-510F-442C-8AD3-F9C7B23FB394}
        Host: 
        Input Pin 'In'
            Connected to pin 'Out' of filter 'ffdshow Audio Decoder (auto-configured)'
            Major type MEDIATYPE_Audio  Sub type MEDIASUBTYPE_IEEE_FLOAT, Format type FORMAT_WaveFormatEx

    Filter 'Enhanced Video Renderer'
        CLSID: {FA10746C-9B63-4B6C-BC49-FC300EA5F256}
        Host: e:\windows\syswow64\evr.dll
        Input Pin 'EVR Input0'
            Connected to pin 'Out' of filter 'ffdshow Video Decoder (auto-configured)'
            Major type MEDIATYPE_Video  Sub type MEDIASUBTYPE_NV12, Format type FORMAT_VideoInfo2
        Input Pin 'EVR Input1'

    Filter 'ffdshow Video Decoder (auto-configured)'
        CLSID: {04FE9017-F873-410E-871E-AB91661A4EF7}
        Host: e:\program files (x86)\k-lite codec pack\ffdshow\ffdshow.ax
        Input Pin 'In'
            Connected to pin 'Output' of filter 'JRiver Media Proxy Video'
            Major type MEDIATYPE_Video  Sub type Unknown GUID Name: {31435641-0000-0010-8000-00AA00389B71}, Format type FORMAT_MPEG2_VIDEO
        Output Pin 'Out'
            Connected to pin 'EVR Input0' of filter 'Enhanced Video Renderer'
            Major type MEDIATYPE_Video  Sub type MEDIASUBTYPE_NV12, Format type FORMAT_VideoInfo2
        Input Pin 'In Text'
            Connected to pin 'Subtitle' of filter 'LAV Source Splitter'
            Major type Unknown GUID Name: {E487EB08-6B26-4BE9-9DD3-993434D313FD}  Sub type Unknown GUID Name: {04EBA53E-9330-436C-9133-553EC87031DC}, Format type Unknown GUID Name: {04EBA53E-9330-436C-9133-553EC87031DC}
        Input Pin 'In Text 2'

    Filter 'ffdshow Audio Decoder (auto-configured)'
        CLSID: {0F40E1E5-4F79-4988-B1A9-CC98794E6B55}
        Host: E:\Users\username\AppData\Roaming\J River\Media Center 16\Plugins\ffdshow\ffdshow.ax
        Output Pin 'Out'
            Connected to pin 'In' of filter 'JRiver Audio Renderer'
            Major type MEDIATYPE_Audio  Sub type MEDIASUBTYPE_IEEE_FLOAT, Format type FORMAT_WaveFormatEx
        Input Pin 'In'
            Connected to pin 'Output' of filter 'JRiver Media Proxy Audio'
            Major type MEDIATYPE_Audio  Sub type MEDIASUBTYPE_DOLBY_AC3, Format type FORMAT_WaveFormatEx

    Filter 'JRiver Media Proxy Video'
        CLSID: {A4207487-E7D8-406B-9882-B66370DE2492}
        Host: 
        Input Pin 'Input'
            Connected to pin 'Video' of filter 'LAV Source Splitter'
            Major type MEDIATYPE_Video  Sub type Unknown GUID Name: {31435641-0000-0010-8000-00AA00389B71}, Format type FORMAT_MPEG2_VIDEO
        Output Pin 'Output'
            Connected to pin 'In' of filter 'ffdshow Video Decoder (auto-configured)'
            Major type MEDIATYPE_Video  Sub type Unknown GUID Name: {31435641-0000-0010-8000-00AA00389B71}, Format type FORMAT_MPEG2_VIDEO

    Filter 'JRiver Media Proxy Audio'
        CLSID: {A4207487-E7D8-406B-9882-B66370DE2492}
        Host: 
        Input Pin 'Input'
            Connected to pin 'Audio' of filter 'LAV Source Splitter'
            Major type MEDIATYPE_Audio  Sub type MEDIASUBTYPE_DOLBY_AC3, Format type FORMAT_WaveFormatEx
        Output Pin 'Output'
            Connected to pin 'In' of filter 'ffdshow Audio Decoder (auto-configured)'
            Major type MEDIATYPE_Audio  Sub type MEDIASUBTYPE_DOLBY_AC3, Format type FORMAT_WaveFormatEx

    Filter 'LAV Source Splitter'
        CLSID: {B98D13E7-55DB-4385-A33D-09FD1BA26338}
        Host: E:\Users\username\AppData\Roaming\J River\Media Center 16\Plugins\lav\LAVSplitter.ax
        Output Pin 'Video'
            Connected to pin 'Input' of filter 'JRiver Media Proxy Video'
            Major type MEDIATYPE_Video  Sub type Unknown GUID Name: {31435641-0000-0010-8000-00AA00389B71}, Format type FORMAT_MPEG2_VIDEO
        Output Pin 'Audio'
            Connected to pin 'Input' of filter 'JRiver Media Proxy Audio'
            Major type MEDIATYPE_Audio  Sub type MEDIASUBTYPE_DOLBY_AC3, Format type FORMAT_WaveFormatEx
        Output Pin 'Subtitle'
            Connected to pin 'In Text' of filter 'ffdshow Video Decoder (auto-configured)'
            Major type Unknown GUID Name: {E487EB08-6B26-4BE9-9DD3-993434D313FD}  Sub type Unknown GUID Name: {04EBA53E-9330-436C-9133-553EC87031DC}, Format type Unknown GUID Name: {04EBA53E-9330-436C-9133-553EC87031DC}

Thanks,
Osho

jmone · « **Reply #25 on:** May 26, 2011, 12:54:54 am »

To get to LAVSplitter you can either:
1) Use MC while it is playing (but as you have seen in RedOctober it is all greyed out), or
2) Use another app. I use DSFMgr http://www.softella.com/dsfm/index.en.htm to Register/Remove/Config DirectShow filters in general. It is a simple app but you will need to run it as an Administrator, then you can "Register new filter" the LAVSplitter (E:\Users\username\AppData\Roaming\J River\Media Center 16\Plugins\lav\LAVSplitter.ax) at which point you can the "Show Filter Properties" --> Filter Settings and it will bring up the page for this.

I don't "think" that at this stage MC is making any dynamic changes to these seetings...so changes you make will (for now) be used but a JR'er would need to confirm....

jmone · « **Reply #26 on:** May 26, 2011, 02:31:25 am »

Also - any thoughts on the OSD part?

Osho · « **Reply #27 on:** May 26, 2011, 12:27:36 pm »

Quote from: jmone on May 26, 2011, 12:54:54 am

To get to LAVSplitter you can either:
1) Use MC while it is playing (but as you have seen in RedOctober it is all greyed out), or
2) Use another app. I use DSFMgr http://www.softella.com/dsfm/index.en.htm to Register/Remove/Config DirectShow filters in general. It is a simple app but you will need to run it as an Administrator, then you can "Register new filter" the LAVSplitter (E:\Users\username\AppData\Roaming\J River\Media Center 16\Plugins\lav\LAVSplitter.ax) at which point you can the "Show Filter Properties" --> Filter Settings and it will bring up the page for this.

I don't "think" that at this stage MC is making any dynamic changes to these seetings...so changes you make will (for now) be used but a JR'er would need to confirm....

Thanks for the info. I will try this and hope it fixes the problem.

On a more general note, isn't this going against the whole philosophy of Red October - which is that MC's own filters are not registered and it configures them how it wants exactly. I am seeing this issue with personal HD videos (MTS, M2TS files) from Sony DSLR camera and a Sony HD camcorder. I am using the 'default' settings on the camera and the camcorder. So, I would imagine this problem would be encountered by multiple users.

Thanks,
Osho

jmone · « **Reply #28 on:** May 26, 2011, 04:26:27 pm »

RedOctober does not use (or need/want to use) the registration system, but that does not stop you using it for various things including using the filters for the "normal" non RedOctober mode. The aim of RedOctober is also to specify what settings should be used but I don't "think" this is the case at present for LAVSplitter as I don't think the Interface has been exposted yet (Matt and nevcairial were discussing this). For now the LAV settings are stored in one place in the Registry and seem to stick if you change them manually. If you can not get to the LAVSplitter Page from MC (note: I CAN - it is not greyed out for me like the other filters). If you want to play directly with the registry they keys is at HKEY_CURRENT_USER\Software\LAV

Osho · « **Reply #29 on:** May 26, 2011, 05:52:25 pm »

Quote from: jmone on May 26, 2011, 04:26:27 pm

If you can not get to the LAVSplitter Page from MC (note: I CAN - it is not greyed out for me like the other filters). If you want to play directly with the registry they keys is at HKEY_CURRENT_USER\Software\LAV

LAV Splitter is not greyed out for me (like other filters). But, when I select it under Directshow Filters, I don't see any window come up. This may be intentional or may be a bug.

THanks,
Osho

jmone · « **Reply #30 on:** May 26, 2011, 06:04:50 pm »

Odd works fine for me - though it may be that it has always been registered on my systems.

INTERACT FORUM

Author Topic: Red October & Subtitles (Read 6945 times)