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[Marlene]

Hey guys, some of you may probably know that foobar sounds different to JRiver. I noticed that too but couldnīt figure out why (the how seems to be a secret). Anyway, just yesterday I did my first own jitter measurments (I finally know how to do them) where it turned out that foobar jitters more than JRiver! Isnīt that amazing? Itīs only software, I donīt understand how something like that could be possible. Here are some pictures:



foobar, sine at 11.025 Hz, 96 kHz



jriver, sine at 11.025 Hz, 96 kHz

Look at the sidebands around the sine, with foobar they are more pronounced. It isnīt that much but that isnīt what surprises me, itīs that they even exist. The same with 192 kHz:



foobar, sine at 11.025 Hz, 192 kHz



jriver, sine at 11.025 Hz, 192 kHz.

These measurments were done using a loop from the output to the input of my ASUS Xonar Essence ST. Needless to say that both players were configured the same, without any volume differences, without any DSP whatsoever, with the same interface to the hardware (WASAPI). Isnīt that something?

EDIT: a very good friend of mine just told me that these differences are completely insignificant and that I interpreted them completely wrong. He says that this is a bunch of nonsense so it appears that I was premature about this. Iīm sorry for this...

[Vincent Kars]

At least you have proven that you have a sound card with a very low noise level.

It remains a bit of a mystery.
When all is equal, no DSP, one expect the same sound.
In practice a lot of people reports a difference.
Might be the famous placebo.

Buffer management is often mentioned as a possible explanation.

But the same happens to me.
I recently compared MusicBee and JRiver both of course using WASAPI, no DSP and yes they do sound different.
Maybe I have to tweak my placebo but up till then I can only say that I do hear a subtle difference.
But I must admit, looking at the graphs I wonder too if this is audible at all.

[Marlene]

At least you have proven that you have a sound card with a very low noise level.

It remains a bit of a mystery.
When all is equal, no DSP, one expect the same sound.
In practice a lot of people reports a difference.
Might be the famous placebo.

Buffer management is often mentioned as a possible explanation.

But the same happens to me.
I recently compared MusicBee and JRiver both of course using WASAPI, no DSP and yes they do sound different.
Maybe I have to tweak my placebo but up till then I can only say that I do hear a subtle difference.
But I must admit, looking at the graphs I wonder too if this is audible at all.

Me too. My best mate who advised me that my little "pics" were confusing at best (who is a REAL scientist by the way, in short know how to work with something like this) advised me that I jumped to conclusions too soon. I still see, that the sidebands are stronger with foobar but I wouldnīt know if that is true or if it would significant in the real world.

And if you have to tweak your placebo then I must too, Vincent. Is it possible that so many people are listening to a placebo?

[Vincent Kars]

I do think the answer is yes.
The testing is casual and most of the time sighted.
Don’t underestimated the band wagon.

It is not about hearing but about perception.
Our perception is not very reliable.
This probably explains why we hear world of differences and the moment we are deprived of clues (unsighted testing) we all of a sudden don’t hear any difference at all.

Jitter is a complex phenomenon, so is the testing.
Maybe this link is of use: http://www.resonessencelabs.com/invicta/InvictaUserGuideILB.pdf
Check chapter 3, they explain their jitter testing nicely.

[qwert73]

To quote an answer to a faq given on foobar2000s site:

Does foobar2000 sound better than other players?

No. Most of “sound quality differences” people “hear” are placebo effect (at least with real music), as actual differences in produced sound data are below their noise floor (1 or 2 last bits in 16bit samples). foobar2000 has sound processing features such as software resampling or 24bit output on new high-end soundcards, but most of the other mainstream players are capable of doing the same by now.

By the way: It is called foobar2000 and not just foobar!

[PaperBoat]

Hey guys, some of you may probably know that foobar sounds different to JRiver. I noticed that too but couldnīt figure out why (the how seems to be a secret). Anyway, just yesterday I did my first own jitter measurments (I finally know how to do them) where it turned out that foobar jitters more than JRiver! Isnīt that amazing? Itīs only software, I donīt understand how something like that could be possible. Here are some pictures:

Count me in... I can also distinguish the sound dynamics between JRiver and Foobar2000.