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Author Topic: Feature request: video cover art  (Read 3571 times)

aaronshaw

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Feature request: video cover art
« on: February 18, 2012, 03:02:34 pm »

I want to request an option to return to the old way of storing video/series cover art in a specified folder, instead of beside the file.

Other people access my library and not all of then use jrmc, which makes browsing the directories very cumbersome having effectively double the number of files.

Also, if jrmc will save the images beside the files, instead of where I tell it to in the options, then what purpose do those options serve?

Thanks!

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rick.ca

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Re: Feature request: video cover art
« Reply #1 on: February 18, 2012, 04:06:10 pm »

Sorry, but it doesn't seem reasonable to dictate an application not save files in the most logical and effective location. Why should files directly associated with one another not be filed together? Unless there's some very good reason to file one type of file in a separate location, that's what most file systems would do. There are very real problems with maintaining covers in a separate folder that this method avoids. A user may very well appreciate the convenience of having a cover beside the file—to assist in identifying it. If not, even Windows Explorer allows them to be filtered-out in two clicks.
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aaronshaw

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Re: Re: Feature request: video cover art
« Reply #2 on: February 18, 2012, 05:34:00 pm »

I guess I don't understand the problems involved in having the images saved to a specific location. Since MC uses its own library to reference and play files, what issues arise from this?

Saving the images beside the files might seem logical to you Rick, but using MC for many years has made me expect the files be saved where I designate. It's what I'm used to, and it's what I (and others http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=69956.0) would love to have back :)

In regards to hiding the image files, not everyone accessing my library is tech savvy, and they use a variety of OS, so it's not as simple as "two clicks" (much to my chagrin).

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rick.ca

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Re: Feature request: video cover art
« Reply #3 on: February 18, 2012, 06:47:10 pm »

Quote
Saving the images beside the files might seem logical to you Rick...

I suppose you can dismiss my reference to logic and common sense as delusional, but "I don't understand the problems involved" and "It's what I'm used to" don't amount to much as support for a feature request.

Quote
In regards to hiding the image files, not everyone accessing my library is tech savvy, and they use a variety of OS, so it's not as simple as "two clicks" (much to my chagrin).

If these people don't understand file types or how to use a simple file manager, what is the basis for assuming they'll more or less confused by the existence of covers? And even if I don't understand the problems involved, why should JRiver and its users bear the cost of additional development and ongoing support for something that has nothing to do with MC?
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MrHaugen

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Re: Feature request: video cover art
« Reply #4 on: February 18, 2012, 07:04:06 pm »

I support the thread starter. I do not like to have images mixed with the video, and I also have other users at my home, which does not like it either. That you CAN filter out this in explorer is just not good enough. Why remove things that work and people depend on in MC? While I do not expect things to change here, I do want to explain why I think it would be a good idea.

I do understand the things could get complicated with custom folder locations and moving of media, but I'm pretty sure things could work well even with a separate cover art location in addition to todays default of storing it with the media. If people just had these two options, I think most people would be happy. One example:


D:\Media Art\TV Show\Name\Series Cover - Name.jpg (cover)
D:\Media Art\TV Show\Name\Series Banner - Name.jpg (banner)
D:\Media Art\TV Show\Name\Background1 - Name.jpg (manual backgrounds)
D:\Media Art\TV Show\Name\Season\Screenshot - Name - SxxExx.jpg (screenshot for each episode)
D:\Media Art\TV Show\Name\Season\Season Cover - Name - Sxx.jpg (Season cover)
D:\Media Art\Movies\Name\Movie Cover - Name.jpg (cover)
D:\Media Art\Movies\Name\Background1 - Name.jpg (manual backgrounds)
D:\Media Art\Movies\Name\Screenshot - Name.jpg (screenshot for movie)
D:\Media Art\Audio\Artist\Artist Image - Name.jpg (artist image)
D:\Media Art\Audio\Artist\Album\Album Cover Front - Artist - Album.jpg (album cover front)
D:\Media Art\Audio\Artist\Album\Album Cover Back - Artist - Album.jpg (album cover back)


This would give us several benefits.
- People could move all the images away from their media directory. Even people without MC would be happy :)
- Images should be easily moved with the correct logic because it's just a mirror copy of the media folder structure
- Images can be easily managed because of the unique naming
- Several types of images is gathered to ONE location. Not spread out on different locations like todays covers and artist images for example
- This structure could be used for other images as well in time.
- They could be stored on faster disks to build thumbnails faster. Perhaps also improving viewing of covers.


I do understand that this ship might have sailed, but I hope it does not hurt to ask for an addition to todays system.
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rick.ca

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Re: Feature request: video cover art
« Reply #5 on: February 18, 2012, 08:01:25 pm »

Quote
This would give us several benefits.

You're advocating that files that logically should be stored in the same folder be separated for no reason other than "I do not like to have images mixed with the video." All of your "benefits" arise from the assumption images need to be separated from video. They don't. And in the absence of any good reason to do so, they shouldn't be. It makes much more sense to save all files directly associated with the same media in the same folder.
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darichman

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Re: Feature request: video cover art
« Reply #6 on: February 19, 2012, 12:19:53 am »

I also agree that art/coverart files be kept as close to the video files as possible.

I'd actually even go so far as to say I'd like the Series coverart with the files too. I don't like MC managing the artist and series images in central folders away from the media files themselves... if I work hard to get the series or artist art I want, it can be so easily overwritten or lost with a reinstall or upgrade or new machine. Some options with flexible rules to specify where this art should be stored might please a lot of users, but I'm not sure it's something that will be happening soon...
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MrHaugen

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Re: Feature request: video cover art
« Reply #7 on: February 19, 2012, 05:14:39 am »

You're advocating that files that logically should be stored in the same folder be separated for no reason other than "I do not like to have images mixed with the video." All of your "benefits" arise from the assumption images need to be separated from video. They don't. And in the absence of any good reason to do so, they shouldn't be. It makes much more sense to save all files directly associated with the same media in the same folder.

It makes more sense for you Rick. 50% of the people discussing this do simply not agree. The point is... This will be an eternal discussion. There will always be people who want a separate art folder. To get all the junk away from the media files. I just wanted to point out a possible solution to those that do not like the defaults. One that might not be so hard to maintain with moving of media etc. And no, the advantages I've described does not only come from the assumption that all images have to be separated from video. I've added another thing I forgot. At least 2-3 of this are very valid points, no matter where you store the files. I'm taking about point 1,4 and 6. Number 4 could be fixed by just doing something with todays location, which also the later replays indicate.
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MrHaugen

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Re: Feature request: video cover art
« Reply #8 on: February 19, 2012, 05:16:03 am »

I'd actually even go so far as to say I'd like the Series coverart with the files too. I don't like MC managing the artist and series images in central folders away from the media files themselves...

If we don't get more control of where to store the images for media files, then yes. I would agree. Having them in a separate location today is bad. Just as with artist images.
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rick.ca

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Re: Feature request: video cover art
« Reply #9 on: February 19, 2012, 05:55:58 am »

And no, the advantages I've described does not only come from the assumption that all images have to be separated from video. Look again. I've added another thing I forgot. At least 2-3 of this are very valid points, no matter where you store the files. I'm taking about point 1,4 and 6.

All of the "benefits" you originally mentioned are irrelevant, except for those who have an irrational aversion to images and media files being saved in the same folder. Can you explain how much time might be saved building thumbnails by moving covers to a faster drive? That sounds like a valid reason for the option, but it's difficult to imagine it making any noticeable difference.
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MrHaugen

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Re: Feature request: video cover art
« Reply #10 on: February 19, 2012, 06:19:13 am »

I don't want to argue about this. You will never see what I and other users see anyway. So, why spend the time trying?


The whole point here is that we HAD ways of making all users happy. That was taken away. There are people now, and there will always be people, who are not happy about this. No matter how much we argue, each and every time with this users. Todays system is not consistent. Images is saved all over. Cover art and thumbnails with media, artist and series art in separate folders, background in cache in other folders, no way to add manual backgrounds, themes backgrounds in themes folder and so on.

I think the system we got was a result of some discussions of the appearance of more and more types of images and how to handle them. There was given advice about a wide array of solutions. I think non of them was about locking users to a default only. People agreed generally about a good naming scheme for the files and placing them next to the media. But I think none wanted to strip away the custom folders totally. That was however the result.

This is just not a good solution. There should at a minimum be a way static way of moving this "meta" files to another location so we can stop this arguing, and making the users happy. There was suggestions of allowing people to set the folders and naming scheme them self for each image type. This would give several benefits. Less users complaining about defaults and much better interoperability with other applications. My suggestion above was a very basic solution to this. It would satisfy the group who don't like images with their media, and thing would be in one central location. I would be happy about almost anything in addition to todays defaults.

Don't forget about the location of the different image types. That is almost worse. We should at the very least have ONE location where the images is stored. Not spread out like today. I could mention many reasons why this is not optimal, but I think most people can come up with a couple them self.
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locust

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Re: Feature request: video cover art
« Reply #11 on: February 19, 2012, 08:28:21 am »

This might be a solution to your problems.

http://www.everstrike.com/shield.htm

I use it to either protect or hide, or a combination of both to my files.

You can set varying levels of access to folders and file types.







Here is the program turned on


Here it is turned off


I think this works on a server environment, but is worth a double check.. It works perfectly for me anyway.
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minolotus

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Re: Feature request: video cover art
« Reply #12 on: February 19, 2012, 10:32:58 am »

I'm not sure if I have completely understood this discussion and the change in version 17. However I am wondering how this will affect me. Up to now I save all images to a separate folder. The main reason to do so is that my database also includes movies and TV shows which are stored on a backup disk usually not connected to my PC. I only plug this drive in when I want to watch one of these files. This does not happen very often as the movies/shows on that disk are not my favourites. Anyhow, even if the drive is not connected, MC should show me the covers and thumbnails for these files. But as MC stores these images only in the respective movie folders, this won't work anymore? If this is true, I would really appreciate if the users could decide themselves where to store the images.
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MrHaugen

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Re: Feature request: video cover art
« Reply #13 on: February 19, 2012, 12:05:47 pm »

This might be a solution to your problems.
It's a solution, but it's a bad one. It's not free, as I've seen, and it take a bit of computer knowledge to set up. It DOES work very well on the masks it wish to activate. I have some problems making all active though. If you install this on the server or client, all other clients connecting to the share will have the files hidden as well. So, that is the upside. However, we cannot justify advising people to use such things because of the mentioned negative things. This files are created by MC, and that is why I also thinks it's logical that it's MC's job to offer alternatives to hide it. A simple "set hidden flag option on jpg and xml files in MC might put all of this discussions to rest.

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locust

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Re: Feature request: video cover art
« Reply #14 on: February 19, 2012, 12:44:59 pm »

It does work well, I didn't get it solely for MC, I do have a few other uses for it.

I think you need 1 entry per file mask you want. (This part could have been better)

I agree since MC is a media server it would be nice if it could deal with hiding files and permissions.

I possible I would have MC hide all sidecar files and images and I would also give my media folders and files read and visibility permissions. Only mc would have all permissions to my files.
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rick.ca

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Re: Feature request: video cover art
« Reply #15 on: February 19, 2012, 05:04:19 pm »

I could mention many reasons why this is not optimal, but I think most people can come up with a couple them self.

Well, it must be me then. It is why I asked for reasons supporting the suggestion, but you're under no obligation to help me understand. So please forgive my ignorance. You win. You're right, consistency is good and redundancy is bad. The option to save audio covers in a separate folder should be removed as well.

It's a solution, but it's a bad one. It's not free, as I've seen, and it take a bit of computer knowledge to set up.

You perceive a problem that has nothing to do with MC. This utility addresses your concern directly, but it's "bad" because it's not free? No wonder you won't provide reasons in support of the suggestion. It seems the only criteria that matters is that you get something for free at the expense of everyone else.

I'm sorry (a tiny bit) for the sarcasm, but I believe you're being unreasonable. You say you don't want to argue, but you continue to do so. And now you're only support for the suggestion is "it will make people happy." If it will make people happy, there must be a reasons why it would make them happy. Knowing those reasons, we might judge whether the suggestion has merit or not. In the absence of reasons, surely we have to conclude the choice to be happy or not is already fully within the user's control, and doesn't have much to do with MC. In your case, the rejection of Universal Shield pretty much confirms this.

Anyhow, even if the drive is not connected, MC should show me the covers and thumbnails for these files. But as MC stores these images only in the respective movie folders, this won't work anymore?

You're already using version 17. Why don't you tell us? I can only guess this is one reason why a set of cover art folders (including one for video) is still maintained.
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minolotus

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Re: Feature request: video cover art
« Reply #16 on: February 19, 2012, 05:40:56 pm »

Quote
You're already using version 17. Why don't you tell us? I can only guess this is one reason why a set of cover art folders (including one for video) is still maintained.


I have currently no problems as all images are still located in a separate folder on my local disk. I have downloaded a couple of new series images and MC copied these images to that folder as well. So, I couldn’t notice any changes compared to version 16. That is why this discussion has confused me a little bit or rather I am worried that problems might occur in the future.  ?
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rick.ca

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Re: Feature request: video cover art
« Reply #17 on: February 19, 2012, 06:32:08 pm »

Quote
That is why this discussion has confused me a little bit or rather I am worried that problems might occur in the future.

I don't think so. The changes were implemented some time ago.
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ldoodle

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Re: Feature request: video cover art
« Reply #18 on: February 20, 2012, 03:31:08 am »

if I work hard to get the series or artist art I want, it can be so easily overwritten or lost with a reinstall or upgrade or new machine.

If the cover art already exists, doesn't MC ignore that folder when doing it's lookup? If not, could the settings be exported to a file and placed in the same directory as the installer, and the installer then looks for this file each time it is run (or you could manually specify it during the install).

Your concern is also one of mine (I disable getting cover art). I've worked tirelessly getting cover art for my (500+) film library, to the extent where I've resized them to specific dimensions for other players, so to lose all that work would be a pain!
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SamuelMaki

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Re: Feature request: video cover art
« Reply #19 on: February 20, 2012, 04:17:36 am »

Well, I enjoy the new method that I can get coverimages to the same folder as the movie. This means that I can see the image when I browse through my movie collection in explorer (I have one folder for one movie...). If I want to delete some movie, I can also easily delete the coverimage and I do not need to worry about them... But, I understand that people have different needs and such, but I personally don´t want to take a step back at this feature ;)
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MrHaugen

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Re: Feature request: video cover art
« Reply #20 on: February 20, 2012, 04:23:41 am »

You're right, consistency is good and redundancy is bad. The option to save audio covers in a separate folder should be removed as well.
Yes, there should be consistency. If that means removing the location settings for album cover images, so be it. I don't mind personally. But be aware that there will be noise. I don't have a problem with ONE image in each directory. But when the amount of "meta" files is are around 70% of the content, the users might be thinking otherwise. Just as it is today with TV Show season folders.

You perceive a problem that has nothing to do with MC. This utility addresses your concern directly, but it's "bad" because it's not free? No wonder you won't provide reasons in support of the suggestion. It seems the only criteria that matters is that you get something for free at the expense of everyone else.
Are you serious? MC is creating all of this files, and we have no reasonable way of controlling it. That ability was removed. Who's fault is it? Is it Windows' fault for not having an option to automatically hide MC "meta" files? The reason I find this suggestion of a licensed application "bad" is because it costs money, and require some knowledge to set up. We can't expect all users to pay for this and put the time into it. MC is creating this files, and it should be MC's job to have options to clean it up. This goes for jpg's, but also things like sidecar files. Would you seriously tell all the users in the coming years something similar to this? "There is nothing wrong with MC. It's your ways that are faulty. If you want to do something about this, you'll have to pay for the Universal Shield program, and possibly get some help setting it up. That will fix all your problems."

There's been some suggestions in this thread that could easily solve this (example of the hidden files attribute). I have no problem with the file hiding application my self. I might in fact purchase it and use it. But I think it's pretty bad that I'm forced to purchase an application because MC's lost a function, and me and my tenants find it annoying to have the meta files filling up the directory structure.

You also talk about "at the expense of everyone else". Where does that come from? Would an alternative way of handling this files hurt you or others? That is simply not true.

I'm sorry (a tiny bit) for the sarcasm, but I believe you're being unreasonable. You say you don't want to argue, but you continue to do so.
There's a difference in discussing with you and others. What I'm trying sometimes is to avoiding a discussion with you when I know it will lead nowhere. When you're on your one way track, there is no way of derailing you or stopping you. Yea, I know. You might think that I'm talking about my self too. Let's face it. We're both very stubborn men. But the main difference is that I might actually bend sometimes. I might even turn completely if someone convince me of a need or a better way. I've gotten the impression that you don't. That's ok. I've gotten used to that. But you have to accept that I will continue to try to avoid discussions with you when I know it lead to a dead end. If I will ever succeed is another question. Look at how well it went in this thread :)

There has been quite a few similar posts to this one (images and xml sidecar files), and much more will come in time. Users that think it's a shame that they have no control of the meta files. My continued replays in this thread was an effort to try to fix this issue. To give some advice on possible solutions. I hope that is still allowed... It does not seem like you're willing to find a solution at all, and that's a shame. You usually have good and valid suggestions for other parts of MC, which I often support.

And now you're only support for the suggestion is "it will make people happy." If it will make people happy, there must be a reasons why it would make them happy. Knowing those reasons, we might judge whether the suggestion has merit or not. In the absence of reasons, surely we have to conclude the choice to be happy or not is already fully within the user's control, and doesn't have much to do with MC. In your case, the rejection of Universal Shield pretty much confirms this.
The main problem here is that many users still depend on browsing their folders to access media. Those with MC most often use MC, and don't care much about the folders and files. We've often gotten past that point. But there is some of us that are dependent on using explorer still. I use it when adding new media, picking a track or video to edit. When copying files to devices and so on. The main concern is those users that use explorer 100% of the time for browsing and playback. Everyone does NOT use MC for playback and organizing, and I can't force them. Some MC users even use explorer for playback! I have some tenants that finds it rather annoying to have folders tilled with thing they never use. And I get that. This is not only about the images. The sidecar files adds to this as well.

This are very valid point for those it concerns. No matter how small of a problem you think it is. Yes, it would make this users happier. It that wrong? Other concerns like consistency, spread locations for images and so on are also valid. There's also a few things mentioned in the previous posts, but I don't see the point repeating them.

I'm trying to highlight the problems with the system as it is today. There are no consistency, some images have location options and naming options, some does not. This makes backup, explorer browsing, updating of images outside of MC and organizing more difficult. At what benefit? MC having a little less problems with moving and renaming? Or was it the ability to have images for duplicate media files that was the reason? Unique file naming and positioning? I don't know. Only thing I know is that it would be a good thing for most of us if things was a bit more consistent, and that there was some option to help users clean up or organize this meta file mess.
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