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[JimH]

I'm moving a couple of messages from Mavrick and DonM here because I think they form the basis of a good discussion on what JRiver can and should do.  You can read these messages and then my reply.

What started this is the new licensing we've done which solves the problem of "I lost my license" but creates a new problem of "how often can I recover my license".  We've set this recovery limit at five per year.

Jim


Mavrick 05-04-2002

Just curious, in a email to me gateley indicated I did not need a seperate license for my laptop or machine at work but does each of these installs count against the 5 restore limit?



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JimH 05-04-2002 06:52:34 A.M.


Yes, and that is the reason that the limit is 5 per year. It allows installation on 5 machines each year. It's a compromise between providing some flexibility for the customer and fair payment for the company.
I'm deleting posts that are repetitive from this thread, so we can keep the discussion on license details.


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DonM 05-04-2002 07:37:41 A.M.


Jim,
Here's another thought on this key registeration thing. How about 6 restores per year and then a surcharge of say $2.50 for anything above 6-10 per year?

The "power user" will then at least know he has a two month spread between wiping his hard drive clean and starting over with a new system. In most cases the "power user" who's testing your software as well as software for other companies isn't concerned with putting MJ on more then one machine. However, he does want to know that when he has to wipe the drive clean and start over he will be able to reload the software that he's already paid for.

On the other hand someone like Mavrick above may want to load MJ on 2, 3, 4 or 5 machines yet may never redo the hard drive all year.

The advantage now goes to a casual user who can load it on many machines per year whereas the "power user" who only will install it on a single machine may be penalized and have to hold off on redoing his hard drive because he's used the limit of 5 keys.

Then again maybe we're all making way to much how of this limit thing. However, the above suggestion may still be a good compromise for all.

[JimH]

Thanks, DonM, for this well-reasoned message.  I would like to point out a couple of things.  

If 5 restores/year proves to be a problem for many people, we may change it in the future.  For now, we're staying with it.

Your suggestion of an additional charge for extra restores is interesting.  Even with the current model, you can purchase 5 more restores for $24.98.

Someone else (Doof?) has also pointed out that if you reformat your hard disk every 30 days, you won't ever have to buy a Media Jukebox license.  It will always be in trial mode.

More importantly, our situation is that we must charge our customers more than we pay our employees.  So far, our development costs are above $3 million, and our sales are less than that.

In spite of this, I think we're on the right track.  We're in the forefront of media software, with a well respected position.  Nevertheless, we must charge a reasonable price and cover our costs.

For version 8, we nearly went to a compulsory license, a model which would terminate all jukebox functionality after 30 days unless a license were purchased.  After some head-scratching, we backed off of that.

Our new licensing took a considerable effort to write, and we did it to solve a problem.  People were not backing up licenses, and they expected us to supply them on demand.  Selling a product at $24.98 and providing this level of personal service is impossible.  So we created an automated way to recover a license.

To discourage sharing licenses, we set a limit of five restores per year.

Now if you would like us to change our model, please suggest a way to increase our sales or to reduce our costs.  No "do a better job of marketing" suggestions, please -- if we could get more sales by spending more money, we would do it.

We can provide more restores by raising our price.  Is that what people want?

We could charge something for every restore.  Reasonable?

The bottom line is that we are in business to make a profit.  This creates some uncomfortable moments for our customers.

[JimH]

Nila's reply from the other thread....

----

Don - I dont think that method is fair at all.
That would mean I have to pay more for the exact same product just because I've installed it more.
I'm paying to support Media Jukebox and it's excellent programmers. I'm not paying for a right to install the software.
I'm BUYING it and should then be able to install it as much as I want to.
Here's a prime example of something that I did recently that would have totally meant I was screwed.
When XP came out I installed it on my machine.
Lets say I had previously installed v8 on my machine (1 reg gone).
After installing XP I installed Media Jukebox straight away because I love it (2 regs gone).
XP wasn't working for me, I dont know why but I was having a lot of problems with it so I did a format and reinstall to see if it was just a dodgy installation (3 reg's gone).
After a week I gave up because it kept crashing on me and formatted my computer and reinstalled it fully back to Windows 2000 (4 reg's gone).
That actually happened to me recently and would have resulted in me using 4 out of my 5 registrations.
If I had additionally installed it on any of the other machines in my network I would have been out of luck and out of registrations.
That seems totally unfair for something I paid for and handed over my hard earned money for.
It's a totally legitimate use of the software and I would have fully paid what JRiver consider to be a fair price for their software which I agree is a reasonable price for something so well made and so well supported but I would have ended up unable to use it even though I paid.

What is going to be your policy with these 5 registrations?
When I use all 5 up in less than a year as I'm sure I will do between reinstallations and trying out XP again every now and then to see if I can get it to actually stay up on my machine, what's going to happen? Am I simply going to be told that it's tough luck and that I need to pay again for another 5 registrations or can I have the 5 reset quite easily and just continue again?

I really want to be fully legitimate with this product and support all the excellent hard work you guys have put into it but I also want to look after myself and not just throw my money away. I know for a fact I will go over the 5 installations a year and dont want to end up out of pocket.

Can you please explain what is going to happen after I exceed the 5?

[nila]

Thanks for starting a new thread. It's nice to have a thread specific to this problem because to be honest it's a really important issue, at least to me.

I totally disagree with DonM's idea of having to pay extra per installation over the 6 as I've already paid for the software and dont feel I should be penalised for liking it so much I install it after every installation.

I fall mainly in the Power User category of his point of the user who will be reinstalling the software several times on the same machine. I say mainly because there is one computer additional computer that I will be installing it to as well.

I can see why your implementing it now to try and stop people installing it on every machine in their network and for big companies or Universities this may be a problem but for the average home user I feel that this is half the Appeal of Media Jukebox. it is designed to work over a network to allow us to have the music anywhere in our houses. Your creating an excellent feature then creating another one that defeats it specifically.
In the 'buy button' subject I have already mentioned an example of how something that happened to me a couple of months ago would have resulted in me using up all my liscenses within a two week period. I'm not going to post it again and to see what I said simply visit that thread.

From an Ethical point of view I feel JRiver has every right to charge for their amazing product but I think it's being approached totally wrong and the manner that they are going about protecting their interests in is directly imposing on our interests as legitimate users.

Ah ok - my threat was moved here by JimH - Thanks.
I'd also like to add something I just remembered - the other computer I would be installing MediaJukebox to died recently and I had to do a full format and reinstall. As is always the case when I do a full installation I install the OS and then put all the software on it immediately so that it is ready to use. The initial installation would have meant 1 reg. the new install a 2nd. The new install failed and so I changed the OS on that other machine (it's an older machine with only 64Megs of RAM) back to Win98SE. This would have meant a third reg.

These two incidents combined would mean that I would have been way past my limit.

I'm glad your actually asking for other alternatives because it means your willing to listen and you realise this approach might penalise a lot of us even though we mean to use it full legitimately.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Here's my view on what you can do alternately.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

1. Trying to invent an activation scheme like this to prevent illegal distribution of cracks/serials etc is pointless as was proved with WindowsXP's activation scheme. The harder you try to be to make it safe and the more money you waste on trying to protect it, the more of a challenge it will be to the hackers and crackers and so the more people you will have trying to crack your product. Therefore save yourself a LOT of money on trying to add complex protection schemes because there's always someone out there who's smarter who will crack it
That'll help reduce development costs slightly.

2. Your system of retrieving the serials is great. You've provided 3 or 4 alternative methods of finding out your serial and this should be left in place as an automated method of finding forgotten serials. You've already developed it to retrive serials so keep it to retrive serials but purely for this task.

3. You want to get paid for the hard work you put in and that's fair enough. Everyone who wants to use it should be required to pay for it. You should however change your licensing scheme. Do a single computer and a network liscense. Single computer is $25, network is say $30 or $35. No restrictions on the size of the network as trying to supervise this just gives you loads more programming work and therefore costs and also will just be cracked.
Obviously write in the clause that this is for home users only and companies or Universities wishing to distribute it should contact you for tailor made liscensing. By doing a single and a network liscense you give users the power to choose what they plan to use it for fairly.

4. To enforce the single or multi computer liscense you have a simple check. When the user is online Media Jukebox can report to a central server. If two reports are made at the same time from different IP's when a user only has a single computer liscense then they are obviously using it on more than one computer or it is an illegal serial number. A response is then sent to Media Jukebox which disables it back to demo mode and the serial is added to a black list. If it was a genuine mistake the user obviously can then contact you to sort it out.

5. With the networked model you dont add any check to the IP because it is unnecessary. The user has paid to use it on all their home machines and so they have the right to install it on all their home machines therefore making them love the product, recommend it to all their friends and therefore do marketting for you. I personally recommend software to all my friends and usually set up all their machines and tell them what software to buy. This equates to my opinion of a product equalling up to around 10 purchases for a product. If I dont like it that results in 10 less purchases. Your aim is to make the customers as happy as possible as they will then promote it and make it the number one heard of software on the internet which will mean that you'll have so many customers that you'll all be lying in the Bahamas sipping your drinks wondering what time your next yatch will arrive that you just ordered.


A limit to the number of registrations is just restrictive to the user and as I thought you would have seen from WindowsXP, upsets a lot of users. You want everyone to love your product as you're not going to regain those huge development costs by cutting out piracy. Your going to regain them by getting thousands of customers. Piracy in some ways will even help you. You guys are always updating the product which is one of it's strong points. Any cracks will only work on a specific version. People will get hold of an illegal version, love it like the rest of us do and see that there's an upgrade out. Most of them who do truely like it will then just pay the relatively cheap price to be able to get updates etc easily without the hassle of the cracks.

The people who would spend months waiting for a crack would never have purchased it anyway and so dont result in a loss of revenue, they might at the worst add to it if they recommend the product to their friends.

This I feel would provide a solution that would not upset any users and would result in you guys deserving the credit and financial rewards you deserve.
Offering network or single computer solutions is a normal practise of software companies and is generally accepted with no complaints. It is a fair method of letting the user decide what they want to do.

You could also offer the possibility of upgrading from a single user liscense to a network one for the additional $10 thereby encouraging happy customers to give you a bit more cash.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Please let me know what you think of this as I think it is a fully fair liscensing method that would suit power users, home network users, single idiot users etc equally well.

[JimH]

Nila,
> I'm not paying for a right to install the software.  I'm BUYING it and should then be able to install it as much as I want to.

This is not correct.  You are not buying the software. That would cost you many millions of dollars.

You are licensing the use of the software.  We own it.

[nila]

Jim - I'm not buying the rights to the code or the rights to distribute it but I'm buying it just like I'd buy a CD whereby I own my copy of it under the liscense agreements. If you wanted to implement a pay-per-view type system then reflect this by a cheap cost.
If I buy a DVD it's mine for as many times as I want to watch it for life. If I am only going to be given limited number of views of it I pay-per-view and it is then considerably cheaper.
I would not consider $25 a pay-per-view or in this case a pay-per-installation type price.

[JimH]

Nila,
I don't want to stray off topic, except to say that your purchase of a CD or DVD does not allow you to share it without limits.  Nor does your purchase of an MJ license.

Jim

[N Y40Male]

is this for people buying new?
or will this include ver7 licenses?

[RhinoBanga]

I agree with you Nila.

I regularly use 4 machines and currently have MJ on them:

1)  My home development machine (where I use MJ to listen to albums while developing personal stuff, e.g. Album View)
2)  My home test bed machine (where I test software in a "clean" environment, e.g. AV)
3)  My office development machine (where I use MJ to listen to albums while working)
4)  My laptop (where I use MJ to listen to albums while away from the office)


The fact is that I am only ever on *one* machine at a time but with MJ's new licensing methodology (if I understand it correctly) I can't even uninstall/install on the other machines as needed as that goes against the 5 per year counter ... and god help me if I have to reinstall during that period.

Is my understanding of this correct?

If so then where is my fair usage right's in all this?

I am a legitimate customer and I am willing to install/uninstall as needed to make sure MJ is only ever on one machine at a time, but J River is not allowing me to do even that.

[Alonso Nefarious]

As someone with a overdeveloped idea of what "fair" is, when I think about the new licensing scheme, I can't help but think that it IS fair.

Most software licences are for one machine, period.  And some even do web registration, and limit the number or re-installs to 1 or 2.  Which means that when you do what is natural, like install it at home, work, and laptop, you are breaking the law.  

By contrast the MJ licence is for 5 installs a year.  Could be one machine 5 times a year, or 5 machines a year.  You choose.  Seems fair.

Put it this way, if installed on 5 machines, it works out to only $5/machine.  Cheap.  If you can keep your OS up for 2 years, and install it on another 5 the following year it's only $2.50/machine.  Ridiculous.

On the other hand, what about when MJ goes through another round of beta testing, when the faithful will be doing full uninstalls, and cleaning the registry, to try excise demons, but don't want to bother with, be insulted by, etc, the nasty "Unlicensed Copy" messages?  Certainly we will be burning through many, many licences?  There will have to be time-limited beta licences, I guess.

In response to Nila:

In reality, if I was a clever "Power User", who was trying out OS's & etc, then I'd wait to register my MJ until after the 30 period expired, AND I needed the licensed capabilities.  By then I'd be sure that the OS was going to stick.

It seems that in this current, um, copyright climate, that all is fair in love and EULA's, but this one seems fairer than most.

Plus I feel about JRiver & Co, because even thought they were much resistant to it, they listened to the users and rebuilt their beloved Buy Button.

-Nef

[UdoS]

I’ve read the previous posts, but there were some points, never showed up.

In previous threads, JR mentioned, selling MJ worldwide or as bundle. Using the previous license technique, all customer are required to have internet access. I know many people, using on computer at home with internet access, having an 2nd  or 3rd just playing music, etc without having access to the IN. Whatever you do, you should consider, there are people using computers without internet, there are people who will never accepting an internet licensing software. Specially in old Europe, buying and paying over the IN is named as something dangerous; something one should leave his hands off. (Thank to our newspaper and TV).

In all threads, you’re talking to people not scary to use the IN, not scary to buy using the IN, if you selling MJ as bundle or as ‘buy in store’ package, your licensing policy Should work for all others too.

One word to the ‘lost my license’ thing. If  you buy anything in a store and you don’t keep up with the user manual, you loose all warranty. If I buy something thru the IN, the first thing is: save your license, proof of purchase etc. Why not using the same procedure to license MJ? If you provide the information code as a text file. One can enter manually or automatic, it should be fine. If one loose this code, never mind.

I, for myself can go along with this 5/year procedure. If there is a ‘hardcore’ user, blowing his HD once a week, it shouldn’t be of your business.


Udo

[RhinoBanga]

Alonso Nefarious:

"Most software licences are for one machine, period."

Your right but MJ is preventing you from uninstalling/re-installing legitimately on the machine that you want to use.   In my case (I use at least two machines per day but not at the same time) after a day or so I would be out of restore's.

No fair use in that.

[nila]

Jim - I dont want to share it without limits but I cant take that DVD to anywhere I want and use it on as many machines as I want.
This is something your not allowing me to do with MediaJukebox.
Also - what did you think of my alternate suggestion as you didn't even mention it?
I dont want to rip you off and I hope you make millions off this product and can retire. I just dont want to be walked over in the process.

Also - one other point I'd like to make.
You want to make your 3 million back and with a product like this that shouldn't be hard. When it comes release date I presume you will instantly be sending copies of the program to all the computer magazines to review, I can think of at least 5 in England that would love to review a program as well made as this with support as thorough.

They will all give the program 5 out of 5 for functionality I'm sure but I know that every single one of them (I have seen it in the past, especially with XP which even had a more fair registration method than this as it could be reactivated as much as wanted), they HUGELY pick on things like this registration process that will restrict the customer and so will point it out and that will put a lot of customers off.
Without this being incorporated into it I can fully imagine that all, or at least most of them will give you 5/5. If they do then it gets added to their A-List of software which means until a better program is made, in every issue of their magazine you get your names in big bold type as 'The software to buy' and it doesn't cost you a penny. This will result in thousands, if not hundreds of thousands of customers per magazine.
All it takes is the person doing the report on the software to say it's incredible and they found no flaws (other than the registration process i cant find any and I'm PICKY) and you'll have a LOT of customers flying your way.

If they also include free copies of it on their demo cd's distributed with the magazine you will have thousands of customers trying it out, a large number of who will pay the registration fee at the end of their 30 day demo.

This will give you ridiculas sales and give you guys exactly what you want. To be paid fairly for your hard work which we all appreciate.

If you leave the current registration process in however I cant imagine the magazines going for it that much, I could be wrong and they might not care, but they're the kind of people who will be doing a LOT of formats and reinstalls per year to test all the software and so something like this will bug them ALOT. If you leave it in I have a feeling you'll put alot of them off backing it fully.

As you can see so far from this board alone, U have quite a few annoyed customers who up until this point worshiped the ground u guys walked on.
Rhino is even making you guys free plugin's and he's going to get shafted purely from formatting and reinstalling to allow him to develop for you guys for free. Take the number of annoyed legitimate customers you have seen on this board, times it by the number of people who we all hope will try out your program and your going to loose a LOT of customers through it.


I fully think u guys should hold off from the final release until you have taken a THOROUGH look at this process as when it's released you could give it a huge take off in magazines, websites etc but negative press from them will totally kill the number of sales u have.

[nila]

One last thing, regarding the point of the 30 day trial period that keeps on being brought up.
I dont want to abuse this and simply keep using the trial and doing a full format every 30 days.

I could easily as it wouldn't be too hard but I would like to support the hard work you guys do on the product.
Also, if I've paid for a license I dont see why I should have to.
I also dont want to be stuck with a stupid nag screen saying 'Buy Me' when I've already 'Bought Me'.

Also - if you read my post I didn't ask for permission to install it to tons of machines. I dont mind paying a bit extra for this right. I even suggested charging more to be aloud to do this. I asked for permission to reinstall it on my own machien as many times per year as I want and I dont know of ANY software that doesn't alow me to do this.
I also dont know of anything I buy that doesn't allow me to do this. As I mentioned - if it wants to do a pay-per-install scheme this should be reflected in the price as it is with films. This type of model is not practical for this type of application however which is why I dont mind paying more for the rights to use it on one machine if I pay for that, or more if I pay an addition cost.

I also agree with Udos point. If you want to fully try and make millions off of this product you have to distribute it as much as possible. People who for instance install it from the front cover disk of a computer magazine might not have internet access. I know in america most people do but in Europe it's not as popular. Your telling them u dont want their business and they cant use your program. Seems a bit obsurd to me for a company that is trying to make money.

[RhinoBanga]

Nila,

Your quite right I feel shafted.

I have spent over 300 hours on AV and I was also going to give the source code to my MJ emulator to Matt/Nikolay to post on the SDK board to help other input plugin developers debug their apps ... but I am re-evaluating my MJ usage now

[JimH]

Nef
For beta, we intend to reset the count to 5 at the moment we release the final version.

Udo,
I'm not sure whether you know that a license/mjr file can be moved to a machine not on the Internet.  This was one of the problems that the new system solved.

Plus it can be use to acquire a license from the web without connecting the machine that MJ is on.

Plus it is all done on port 80 now, so firewalls should not be a problem anymore.

Rhino,
We will provide free licenses to developers who have done the kind of outstanding work you have.  This is another thing we could not do with our old system.

[Julien]

One thing I don't think I've seen mentioned (I could be wrong, I just learned to read) is that often during the beta process, we compulsive updaters are required to do complete uninstall/reinstalls during troubleshooting. My Logitech mouse/right button click crash machine has had more than five reinstalls over the last 30 days alone. Is that relevant/affected by this new licensing scheme?

Julien

[Ingo]

Nila,

I totaly agree with you. I realy bye the right to use the software, and this includes using it, as long as I have a computer that fits the software's requirements.

JimH,
this is just as with a CD/DVD, as long as I own (or at least have access to) a CD/DVD player I can use the cd. Not just a few times a year, but as often as I like.

$25 seems to be a fair price to me, and I always loved MJ since I first bought it back in V5 days, but this type of licensing would at least make me think of paying again for an upgrade and would probably have held me away from bying it in the first place. As long as it would be possible to backup/restore a license (without time limit) as it was with V7, this automatic thing would be fine for me, even a limit to 5 web restores a year would be ok for me (but even then you should provide a method of restoring a license by direct mail communication).

I can fully understand that you need to earn money by selling the software and that you're looking for ways to hold illegal/unlicensed use of MJ down, but again, this kind of license seems to be the wrong way to me (and MJ wouldn't be the first software I stopped using due to a license that seems unacceptable to me, but it would be the hardest decision that I ever made in that area).

Ingo

[UdoS]

JimH wrote:
_________
Udo,
I'm not sure whether you know that a license/mjr file can be moved to a machine not on the Internet. This was one of the problems that the new system solved.
_________

I know, but you have to get it on there for the first time.


Udo

[RhinoBanga]

Jim,

Thank you for your offer and it does ease the pain.


If you are insistant on this licensing model (which I still think is morally objectionable) then the best solution is to offer additional "restore packs" as some have mentioned earlier.

Main MJ license (5 restores): $25
5 Additional restores: $10 per pack only purchasable at the point of order

If you need 5 more at a later date then you have to purchase the full product again.

[DonM]

First let me clear one thing up. I don't work for MJ, like you I am a happy buyer/user of MJ.

Like many I was at first irritated when I heard about the new licensing agreement. There's an old saying, "You can please some of the people some of the time but you can't please all the people all the time." Compromising however pleases far more of the people but still not all.

My suggestion of a $2.50 surcharge above a certain number of restores was an attempt at a compromise. I thought to my self, "what would I be willing to paying to restore my license if I exceeded the limit?" $2.50 seemed resonable to me. 10% of the purchase price. I may still be a little irritated about having to pay another $2.50 ( for about 10 minutes) but in the whole scheme of things $2.50 is no big deal.

There's another comprmise above mentioned by Nila. $25 for the regular and $35 for unlimited restores. That's still a tremendous bargin for what we get!

Consider this:

RealOne - free download but if you want the Plus features you fork out $9.95 a MONTH. Oh, I want DSP, what it's not built in. Okay, now I have to go over to DFX and pay $19.95. Opps somethings gone wrong with my operationg system restore once, twice, three times. What my Plus features on RealOne no longer work. Customer Service from RealOne tells me, "that's right you're only allowed to restore a certain number of times and then you loose the Plus features. How do I get them back? Resubscribe, cancel your old subscription and fork out another $9.95! But, I still have 2 weeks of the month left from the first subscription! Sorry!, says Customer Service we know it's a problem but we can't doing anything. That's you're only option. Why? Because their sub is Web based.

I know I'll buy MusicMatch Jukebox. Free download. Want the Plus Features? $19.95. What, no DSP. Another $19.95 to DFX. Want lifetime upgrages? Another $49.95. Want Media Editing? Another $19.95 |PLS| depending on the program that you buy.

I know I'll go to JRiver Media Jukebox. Free download. Want the Plus features, $24.95. What, it has DSP, Media Editing and all the other extras not found in either of the above? What steal. Only seeming draw back, 5 restores per year.

I'll stay with MJ.

Hopefully, Jim won't be reading this and raise the price on MJ.

One more point. It seems many are mad at the wrong people. We should be made with those who pirate the software. They have created the current problem. MJ is only trying to protect what is their's.

[nila]

Rhino - I think you've been bought over.
U personally as someone who has to reinstall their system a lot knows exactly what this will mean. It means I will have to pay considerably more to use the product than someone else who uses it the same but just isn't a power user and so doesn't have to reinstall their system frequently. On the other hand, u can get some dufus who wants to shove it on every computer in their house can do so for the $25. I dont want to do this and I think JRiver allowing us the ability to put it on 5 machines is more than generous. I wasn't expecting this and I think it's really generous of them to offer it, like I said though, if they want to worry about their profits they should charge a slight premium to put it on more than one machine. Either an extra fee per machine of $5 or $10 or something or just a network version license which can be put on up to X machines.

I'm going to have to pay more simply because I format my computer every so often than someone who is giving it to 5 people around their house to use.
This hardly seems at all fair.
As you programmers at JRiver should also know - formatting a machine more than 5 times a year isn't THAT uncommon for most power users and I'm sure most of you have had to do so.

Also, fair enough for non power users they wont have to do this, but most non power users get recommended software or even often have the software installed for them by the power users.

I know I initially used to tell my friends exactly what software to use and even though a lot now have learned enough about computers to choose for themselves, I still tell quite a few what to use. I dont want to be able to give them all licenses for my $25. I just want to be able to make sure mine lasts.

Also, just to ask again - as I know I will be going over the 5 a year that you are saying you are going to grant, what's going to happen to me when I reach that limit? Am I going to be told tough luck, pay us again to reinstall the same software onto the exact same single machine that you initially purchased the software for or what?
I would really like an answer to this as I need to work out whether or not I will even consider buying it. I obviously wont if I'm going to get shafted like this. And again, this means AT LEAST 5 direct less purchases of licenses for JRiver when I tell my friends not to buy it (I've already installed it on 3 of their machines as the demo and they all love it and are considering buying it). I know 5 isn't the hugest number of losses for you but it is $125 and if you times this by the number of customers you have already seen on this board who are going to go elsewhere it is quite a lot. Times that ratio by the number of customers u expect and the number it will annoy and that is a lot of business.

Also, I'd like to say I think it's cool your giving Rhino a free license, he definitely deserves one as I feel do all skin designers who make skins that you include with the distrobution setup file.

[nila]

Don,
Just to address your issues you mentioned.
You dont seem to understand. I'm going to get directly worked because I do a lot of installations not because I want to install on a lot of machines. Fair enough $2.50 isn't a lot but wouldn't you get annoyed if you had to pay this just to reinstall some software because your OS crashed after you've already bought a full lisence and are a legitimate owner of some software?

I would never pay for any of these other options you mentioned and would spit at anyone stupid enough to. Real as a company is scum, their software is crap and tries to take over your whole system and it sucks.

There are plenty of other Jukeboxes available.

I dont want any number of restorations per year. I want a lisence that is mine to just let me install it like any other professional software I use.
To name a few: Photoshop, Office, Illustrator, Dreamweaver.

And as for directing this at the wrong people that's rubbish.
The crackers aren't going to care in the slightest about this, They're going to be laughing as they use their cracked version as many times as they want with no problems without having to go through all this crap. Look at WindowsXP if you want a prime example. Cracked version was available the same day as the retail version was in the shops. The people who bought it legitimately had all kinds of problems when the systems couldn't handle all the registrations. The guys with the illegal versions had no problem.

This is encouraging people to use illegal versions if they want an easy life not the other way around which is how it should be.

And also, this whole scheme to me seems to be messed up. It was implemented for the morons who loose their lisenses and so basically what it's done is said: If your a dopey git and cant look after your receipt (serial) then we'll help you out. If you are together and look after it but use your computer a lot and do a lot of installs then your buggered.

Doesn't this seem backwards?? Idiots get to have their problems solved but guys who are together and take proper responsibilities get worked over?

[JimH]

Nila,
Your suggestion to Rhino that he can be bought and the implication that we would try are both insulting.

I want to ask you, as politely as I can, to respect the fact that we have thought about this a great deal, weighing all the arguments you've posed and many more.  What we have with the new licensing is now our fourth generation of licensing.  We have something like 1,500,000 copies of licensed software in use by customers.

It isn't the system you would design.  It is the one we think is the best compromise.

Your comment:

> As you programmers at JRiver should also know - formatting a machine more than 5 times a year isn't THAT uncommon for most power users and I'm sure most of you have had to do so.

You can use the trial version for the first 30 days each time you format.  Format often enough and you'll never need to pay.

[nila]

Fair enough if your not going to change your mind.

Should I take that as an answer to my question though as to what happens when I run out of the 5?
Am I left high and dry?
If so then what was the lisensing for version 7? Was it the same or do I actually get a lisence for my money?
Also, like I've said before, I didn't want to abuse the 30 day trial period and didn't mind paying.
I guess you'd rather I abused it though.

[RhinoBanga]

LOL @ Nila ... yeah I'm a ##### ... but if it means I don't have to worry about ghosting stuff up just trying to get AV out the door then I'm not complaining


But seriously I do know what this licensing model will mean and that is why I said "which I still think is morally objectionable".

Personally I think software should be on a per user or per machine basis.   Not this "restore" rubbish which as you mentioned will get slated by magazines since it's worse than the current XP model.   Also I cannot see a magazine recommending MJ when there are other (but less capable) alternatives out there that have a more "traditional" licensing method.

J River are really shooting themselves in the foot if they keep it.

[zevele1]

Do not understand all on this post.I do format a lot.3 times only yersterday.I have the 7  license so not a problem-if i understand-.Since beta and many problems i have i even do not bother to restore my licence
But it is hard to me to understand how people formating a lot do not know of a way to keep MJ in a safe place to reinstall it without the restore licence


Most of the people use one computer and DO NOT format every other day,for them 5 restores is fine
Another thing:if you want to use MJ to stream music from one computer to an other,do you need to have the full version on each computer?If yes,to keep the streaming fonction as a part of the free software can be a solution[if such a thing possible]
The restore license is weeb based,but do not identify the computer?Or yes?
In this case maybe a computer related licence has to be an option,charging the cost of this procedure on the top of the regular price.Again if such thing possible and if the cost is small
I would not like very much to have only 5 restores.In an other hand ,it gives you 10 months on the safe side,and the "buy it" pop up windows are not that frequent .Not to the point to get mad at them
I am sure that "regular" users much prefer to be able to get they licence from the web,than to put it on disc

[nila]

Here's another solution I thought of.
If your willing to let users install the software on 5 separate machines but just dont want any more than that and that's the reason you build in this elaborate protection method then this would work just fine.
Every user who pays gets 5 serials that work. One per machine so they can install it on up to 5 machines.
Media Jukebox then reports the serial number it is functioning under to the JRiver server every time the computer is connected to the internet. Also, if any two Media Jukeboxes connect to each other they check each others serial to make sure they're not the same.
If two separate computers report the same serial at the same time then it's an illegal serial number and they are both instantly deactivated and a message sent to Media Jukebox telling it that it is disabled and it then returns to Demo mode.
This solution would enable any serials floating around the web to be easily detected. It would allow users to install it on up to 5 machines but no more as if they used the same serial on two machines it would disable it as soon as they were both online and it would allow us to reinstall it as many times as we wanted.

[swilburn]

I do not post here often, but this is one subject that concerns me.  MJ's current licensing method is starting to look like a subscription.  Microsoft is also heading toward a subscription-type licensing deal, which is why I do not have XP on my home computers.  My feeling is that once I have bought a license for the software, that license should be good for as long as I care to keep the software - as long as I do not violate the licensing agreement.  I mess around with my computer a lot, trying new software, changing options, editing the registry, etc., which can and does lead to crashes.  And sometimes I have to re-install windows to fix the mess I made!  But I should be able to re-install all of my licensed software without paying again.  I liked the old method better and believe it was much fairer (I have license copies backed up everywhere!)  If this new license deal proves to be a problem for me I will move on to another program:  I am really a lite user and do not need all of the flexibility MJ offers, but have come to like this program and would hate to leave.  But, that's life.  Bottom line:  It is MJ's software - you can do licensing however you want.  But I am guessing this method will turn away potential customers.

[UdoS]

The last post I read before I put this down was from ZEVELE10

Jim, we are talking about a license fee of 25$. A lot of companies selling licenses at about 2.500$ or more. Is it worth it? I think, you punching people who paid their dues in the past and will pay it future. If anyone is looking for a crack, he’ll find it.
Before I use a crack, I’ll think about the company behind this software. I support more than one company (e.g. Adware, WinHex etc) by buying their SW, however there is a free version of it. You should give your customer the feeling, to have a good part of software, and most of them were willing to pay for it. But it must be straight forward! Like I read in a post al long time ago (I think it was Matt or Doof) He said: “MJ is more than a Jukebox, it’s a religion”. Keep it this way. If you offer ether a 30 day trail – or a bundle version with limited capabilities (like Real does) – and some kind personalized registration code, most of them will pay for the full version, since it's worth it.

Using a tricky license is like a challenge for many people to crack it! (see WinXP, OfficeXP etc). You might even serialize copies to prevent interchanging etc. But keep a license which is reusable infinitive. I’m running my computer with w2K for 1 year without reinstalling, but as we read, many people have to do it far more than that. And those people are probably the majority of your customers. Think about this.

Udo

[JimH]

Nila,
I have to say that I find your approach unhelpful.

Jim

[JaredH]

So what about in cases like my own. Due to Bad cards, and upgrade fever, ive had to reformat and reinstall everything on my hard drive 5 times in the past 4 months. So if something happens that i have to do it again before the end of the year i wont be able to use my MJ liscense and be stuck with the demo version for 6 months before i can restore my liscense again???

[nila]

Jared - yeah that's basically it unless of course you want to buy the same product all over again. Basically your getting screwed.

And Jim,

I'm not trying to be unhelpful and I'm trying to be as helpful as I can instead of just whining.
U said suggest alternatives and so I did.
I mentioned two other possible methods of providing registration that would work equally well and would be less restrictive on users such as myself.
I have also asked quite politely what happens when I run out of the 5 as I know I will and have never recieved an answer.
In almost every post I have mentioned that I think u guys do a great job in making amazing software and in providing great support for it and have not been at all rude about yourself or any of the JRiver staff.

I have also given thorough reasoning behind my thoughts and not just said do this with no explanation.

Up until I heard about this licensing scheme I loved every single thing I had found out about your program.
I had installed it as I said on many of my friends computers, had recommended it to numerous others and had also submitted it to sites that I frequent asking them to do reviews on it so that other site users could find out about an amazing piece of software.

This whole thing however is totally changing my view on the company. I agree it's EXTREMELY generous of you to allow the software to be installed on up to 5 machines but however saying that I am limited to 5 installations on my own personal machine is a total abuse of my rights after having purchased the software.

I have asked many times what will happen if I exceed the 5 installation limit, I was to be honest expecting an answer along the lines of:
If you exceed this number then e-mail us and we will issue you a new serial to your e-mail that you registered with or reset your limit as this would mean that only the person who paid for the software would be able to reinstall it and by making it a manual process you would easily be able to spot cases of abuse.
This would have been a totally reasonable reply that I could have respected and thought that you were willing to help out genuine incidents where users exceed their 5 registration limits not due to piracy or supplying the whole university with codes but due to genuine use.

Instead, the only replies I have had all basically say: Even if you use the software responsibly and legally and pay for it, if you have bad luck and have to reinstall your OS a few times a year we're going to make it even worse luck for you by making you pay for our product again. OR: If you install your OS that frequently then just dont bother paying and instead live of Demo's. This isn't a reply I can take particularly seriously as it sounds far more like your saying: I honestly dont believe you do a lot of reinstalls so I'm going to call your bluff and tell you to live of Demo's.

And as for the mention of Real One player as charging $9 a month or whatever it was, I'm pretty sure they provide content for that not just a piece of software. I seriously doubt anyone is stupid enough to fork out $120 a year to use a piece of software as trivial as Real Player.

I was genuinely trying to be as helpful as I could with my posts and trying to post alternatives that I thought could operate successfully without causing the end user any problems but seeing as you 'find my approach unhelpful' I presume you were not genuine with your request for viable alternatives but instead were trying to shut me and the other users who voiced concern over this, up.

I do love MediaJukebox, I do love the support and I do think u deserve financial reward and so I plan to keep monitoring this site in the hope you will change this method for one that is less aimed towards making you as much cash as possible to one that is aimed to making you as much cash as possible while still being fair to us.

Once I make sure it works I will then buy a lisense to support you and the rest of your team who all work extremely hard, and I can rest assured that I can use the product without any limitations to how many times I can install it and basically give myself a fair set of rights from my purchase of a lisence.

To be honest I was hoping for a much more suitable solution to be provided by yourself, especially with the excellent quality of support you normally provide.

[mphorton]

JimH

I, too, am concerned about the new licensing procedure.

I like being responsible for my own actions, good or bad. Once, under the old system, I had a system crash and my .rrg backup(s) failed. My fault--my problem, so new license purchased without complaint.

Under the new system, I can't see how responsible actions on my own part will prevent me from having to purchase duplicate licenses in the future. I re-format often. As an example, right now my scanner simply will not scan accurately, and having exhausted all other options, I'm about to start fresh once again. This makes—what—about 4-5 times in the past six months, each time due to one problem or another with computer software or hardware. Had this system been in place during that time, it seems that right now, I'd potentially be faced with a situation where I'd have to pay you another $25 or do without the scanner.

I'm not threatening to jump ship--I'm enjoying the ride too much. Perhaps I'm just enjoying it a little less, as I have this little lingering doubt in the back of my mind, that's all.


Michael

Listening to: Happydeadmen - Science Fiction

[ZRocker]

Here's an idea...ask the user when they purchase MJ what format license they want and tell the consequences of each.  Some of us had no problems what-so-ever with the pre-8.0 licensing format...then, some people don't understand the word 'backup' and need JRiver's help.  Let the latter folks choose the new 8.0|PLS| license format.

What do you think of that?  (If someone else has suggested this too...I apologize as I've not read this thread entirely.)

[Mysticeti]

Clarification please...

(if this has been covered, sorry)

If install MJ8, purchase it/register it (using 1 of my 5), and then burn my "\Program Files\J River" directory to CD, will I have to re-register (using more of my 5) if I reformat my C: drive, reinstall MJ8 and restore the CD?

[JimH]

Zrocker,
It's a reasonable approach, but it has downsides:
1.  It would be confusing to explain.
2.  It would leave two systems to support.  This would be complicated for a user to understand.
3.  We would still have the firewall issues.
4.  We would still have the "lost my license" issues.

[Mavrick]

Wow I sure missed alot in the last 24hrs and I'll be honest I have not taken the time to read all the posts in this thread(I will do so later of course) but I have read most of those from JimH and I have been thinking as well.

First I want to thank JimH for being open to the discussion of this issue. Most software companies would not even respond, to be able to talk with man in charge is very impressive.

Being in business myself I definitely understand the need for JRiver to make a profit. Yes I'm sure that's part of your reason for being in business. I also understand that if JRiver does not make a profit than they will no longer exist to support and improve MJ.

>>Someone else (Doof?) has also pointed out that if you reformat your hard disk every 30 days, you won't ever have to buy a Media Jukebox license. It will always be in trial mode.

This thought had occurred to me as well and eased much of my concern. When needing to reload windows I will hold off restoring the license until I hit the 30 day limit. If I have made it that far I should be good for a while. This is the same procedure I use with XP, don’t know why it didn’t occur to me before.

>>Our new licensing took a considerable effort to write, and we did it to solve a problem. People were not backing up licenses, and they expected us to supply them on demand. Selling a product at $24.98 and providing this level of personal service is impossible. So we created an automated way to recover a license.

I agree. I know from experience with my own customers that some people can be very unreasonable. There have been many time we have had to rescue customers from their own carelessness or had to explain that the problem was not our responsibility and our assistance would come at price. Of course in all these instances their mistake is our fault.

Finally, $24.98 is an incredible price for all the functionality your product provides and the more I considered that fact the more I determined that in a worse case scenario where I had to spend another $24.98 to use your product that would be okay. As you pointed out this is basically a five license pack. It might be nice to have the option to purchase additional restores at $2.50 but then we get back to that profit thing again so I don’t know if that is really possible.

Again thanks for listening.

[JimH]

Mysticeti,
Yes.  You're correct.

Mavrick,
Ah, the voice of a capitalist.  Thanks.

[nila]

Maverick,
To you maybe an extra $25 isn't that much to pay for a license you already bought but to me it is. I'm just about to graduate this year. I have absolutely no cash and I'm about to have to start looking for a job and I'm graduating with the great pleasure of around $16k debt.
Wasting cash isn't something I'm trying to do much.
As a business man yourself dont you agree that giving the customer what they have paid for and making them happy should be the number one concern. Especially if they are more than happy to give you their cash for your product but just want fair rights to use it?
I agree JRiver should make cash but I also agree that I deserve a fair deal as well as them.

[Alonso Nefarious]

Ok, lets look at it from another angle.

There are two limitations on the licence, presumably to discourage piracy:
1. A licence can be recovered up to 5 times a year.
2. A licence file will unlock a machine for up to two weeks.

Now let's consider three kinds of user:
A. Happily stays within the rules, or buys a new license when the 5/year limit is exceeded.
B. Would play outside the rules, but does not know about cracks, crack sites, and/or draws a distinction between casual EULA violation and crack.
C. Would be a A. or B. but feels justified getting a crack.
D. Would never pay for software, wants to play outside the rules, and does.
E. Does not use MJ because of perceived unfair/limiting license rules, or religious reasons.

If MJ gets popular enough, somebody will crack the licence, and the D. type will get a crack.

So the license rules are about keeping as many people in the A. and B. group as possible by making it more difficult to casually violate the license.

So really this is a marketing question.  Folks find and try MJ, then decide to keep using it.  X% buy the Plus upgrade, Y% use the limited version, Z% obtain a crack.  It's about behavior.  For instance if the price is too high, you will get more C. users.  So the question is wether the license rules help to maximize X or hurt.

The other question is, is there another set of rules that will help to maximize X more?  So, folks who object the current set, propose, please.  

-Nef

[Smiler]

Hi
I thought the old license scheme was very clever with putting ones' Credit card No. in the RRG file. It waqs not going to be spread around so easy
crashes and re-installs were not a problem Asumming one had made a backup.
Personally speaking if a backup was not made then tough.
The only limitation with the old system was that you could not buy it for a friend.
But I have to say that I don't have a solution to offer I just know it is IMPOSSIBLE to please all such is life.
I don't mind the new way, I prefer the old way though.
Smiler
Listening to: 'Un Baile A Beneficio' from 'Osvaldo Pugliese Y Su OrquestaT Ipica (1949)' by 'Osvaldo Pugliese' on Media Jukebox

[Stebajo]

ZRocker, I agree completly with you; personally I would prefer the old licence system, because I feel 5 restore too little for an year...
Now is not so clear if a 'save as' will be counted as a restore.
Let us possibly decide.

[JimH]

A lot more is being made of this than needs to be, I think.

Our intent is to provide you more or less what you've had before.  We're not trying to get more from you for less performance.  The main change we've made is to provide a fool-proof restore.

If it turns out that the average person needs more than 5 restores a year, we'll lift the limit.
The limit is there to prevent cheating.  It isn't to prevent valid use.

That said, if someone has 4 or 5 machines they are running on, they may owe us for more than one license.  I think that's fair.

[Doof]

Forgive me if I repeat something. I started reading this thread in earnest and then somewhere about 3/4 of the way through I started skimming. A couple of things.

1. Nila, both of your alternates are just as flawed as this (and yes, I'm agreeing that is flawed even though I'll have no problems operating within it). For three reasons... you want JRiver to be constantly checking the validity of licenses in use on various machines everytime they connect to the internet. The reasons this is no better is 1. It's called ReportWare and has just as much bad blood as anything out there, including spyware, and so it will also turn people away. 2. You're requiring a huge load on the servers at JRiver, it's doable, but still asking a lot, and 3. What do you use to determine what "different machine" are? IP address? Most ISP's I'm aware of use DHCP assigned addresses when you connect, so you're going to get a different IP address each time you log on. So then what? Start assuming an entire Class C license is the same person? No way. So then what do you use? PC name? I'm willing to bet there are more than a million PC's out there named the same thing (primarily because they're all bought from the same vendors who always give PC's the same name) and they're all probably on the "Workgroup" workgroup.

The other thing is this. It's not a given that Power User formats their computer every couple of weeks or even every 6 months. I consider myself a power user. I'm a power user who went through the stage of formatting his PC every couple of weeks, finally got sick of, and decided I'd much rather learn to FIX the darn thing than to just start over every time something blows up. Sure, I give it a 6 month wipe for good measure, but my PC's all run GREAT, and I don't need to worry about violating 5 restores a year. Plus, if I were in the need to format that often (like if I were doing some delevopment work) I'd set it up once the way I like it, then Ghost it so I could get it back up and running again with a minimum of fuss. Power User does NOT equate having to format your PC every week! That just means you can't keep your PC running well (for whatever reason - not trying to offend here).


But here's what I would do if I were in JRiver's shoes (because like I said, I do think this current scheme is flawed). I would charge $24.98 for a license. That license would be just like the ones we had for version 7, with the same rules and restrictions. I could install it on multiple PC's as many times as I want as long as they're my PC's. I would warn people they needed to backup the license (just like it used to be done) and then I would charge $5.00 to restore a license (still using the automated restore setup - only it charges you another $5.00). If somebody's dumb enough not to back the thing up and the lose it, they can get a restore for $5.00. They're able to get things running again, and they didn't have to buy the whole thing all over again. If they do this 5 times, well hey, that's $25! They just bought it all over again (much like if you went over your 5 restores now). This has several advantages that I can see:

1. It doesn't punish the people who backup their licenses.
2. It doesn't punish the people who format their machines often (provided they backup their license).
3. It provides a way for the not so backup-savvy people to restore their license without being punished too badly.
4. There are no bad conotations with a licensing scheme like this. If anything, it's more lax than you get elsewhere because it's not limited to only 1 PC.

Now, if the whole purpose behind the 5 restores a year was to limit the number of PC's people are allowed to install to, then it's a different story. I wasn't really under the impression that that was the case, though.

[DeathRider]

I think all points have merit, The new way JimH is doing this is a bonus in the rough. MJ has lost some customers albeit only a very small fraction of those that are here now. With the license issue redone MJ will see fewer irrate youngsters with license issues and they will be happy customers and in addition since they are happy the are the bonus in the rough since they will spread the word about MJ to which they would not have in the past. Short term it will not be noticed but a few more customers here and a few more there adds up in the long run, it works exponentialy like rolling a snow ball, it will get bigger as long as it rolls and there is snow around. So there are plenty of customers out there to attract and I hope to see a lot more converts coming from those that use "Realplayers" for example, after all people deserve the best and JRiver offers the best.

[Mavrick]

Nila-I’ve been where you are and I do know the feeling of  looking at those loans and wondering how your ever going to get ahead but if you want to talk debt I’ll put my mortgage, outstanding school loans, and future school loans(2 year old and 7 year old) up against your 16k. Not to belittle your situation but it is part of life. And JRiver is not responsible for your financial situation just theirs. As far as giving the customer what they have paid for, in my experience the customer is not always right. Many customers feel they are entitled to more than they have paid for.

JimH-
>>> If it turns out that the average person needs more than 5 restores a year, we'll lift the limit.
The limit is there to prevent cheating. It isn't to prevent valid use.
>> That said, if someone has 4 or 5 machines they are running on, they may owe us for more than one license. I think that's fair

Again I think this shows that you are willing to listen to your customers and balance their needs with J. Rivers need to protect itself from piracy.

I did really like Doof’s last post on this topic, might be a good compromise.

[DonM]

Doof,

Good suggestion for a compromise! Now use whatever pull you have with JimH to get MJ to accept your compromise.

Personally, I think we're making way to much of the whole thing. However the discussion does show the concern that many have with feeling that some how they are being cheated or whatever. The down side of that is that bad effect it could have on MJ if people don't fully understand. (No offense meant to anyone here)

For many Ghost is the answer. Like you I use it to create an image with all the software and setting set the way I want it that I can always revert back to should something go wrong.

[swilburn]

I also likes Doof's solution.  It seems to be a good compromise for the "lost license" people, and does not punish the rest of us.  The flaw I see in it is on JRiver's end:  This solution does little to solve the piracy problem.  I'm guessing this solution will not be adopted.

[Tuber]

I also think Doof's proposal is truly excellent, for the reasons he stated. Obviously, it addresses Nila's central concern, which I believe to be valid and important.

In fact, I imagine that JR could probably even charge $10 for a restore, if indeed that much were needed to cover the costs of providing this service to those who don't back-up their licenses.

Immediately after initial registration of MJ, before its achieves functionality, I'd recommend that MJ display a *very* strong and clear recommendation (nearly an admonition) to back up the license. (I realize this occurred in the MJ7 scheme, but I'd make it stronger.) If such a recommendation were to include a clear indication of the fee to be charged to restore a license, I believe folks will be at least more likely to back up their licenses. For those who choose affirmatively not to use the internal back up routine immediately after initial registration, I'd recommend they be reminded of the risk they're taking. "Are you sure &c...This could cost you...Don't be a fool " Periodic reminders for those who haven't backed up (disablable with a "Do not show this message again") could also help.

In most ways, I think the MJ7 licensing system was excellent, although I appreciate the significant costs and various downsides arising where users failed to back up their licenses. Doof's proposal would greatly improve the MJ7 licensing scheme by appropriately compensating JR for these costs and downsides. It also side-steps what I imagine will be the sure alienation of frequent re-installers who wish to use MJ under the new system.