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[randytsuch]

Hi
So I would like to run Mediacenter, with Allocator as a plug in.  I am planning to use Allocator to create a software crossover.  I have a Motu 828 MKII to use an an external multichannel dac to support this project.

My problem is that when if I make changes to Allocator, then exit Mediacenter, all the changes are lost. 
I also can't figure out a way to even save the changes, the save/load function doesn't seem to do anything.

Am I missing something, or is that the way it is?

Honestly, anything short of remembering the last configuration automatically is probably a nogo for me.  Even having to load in a configuration would become a pain, if I have to do it anytime I want to listen to music.

Randy

[Matt]

Welcome.

VST loading / saving works for most plugins, but I don't have experience with Allocator.

You could try picking a different 'Program' from the list and then use Load / Save.

For software crossover, you'll get better results using the built-in 'Parametric Equalizer' in Media Center.

[mojave]

Welcome, Randy. I see you made it over from AudioCircle. Are you using the save/load function in Allocator that is next to the Stream button? All other VST's I have used work fine for loading and saving settings. They also keep settings between instances of JRiver so I don't even have to reload. I only have the demo of Allocator and I don't think I can save with it.

For software crossover, you'll get better results using the built-in 'Parametric Equalizer' in Media Center.

The high pass filter only allows 12 & 24 dB slopes. Some like to use steeper slopes when implementing a high pass for crossovers in active speakers. I think you originally did this for use as a high pass for subwoofers, but maybe there is another reason for not having steeper slopes.

[Matt]

The high pass filter only allows 12 & 24 dB slopes. Some like to use steeper slopes when implementing a high pass for crossovers in active speakers. I think you originally did this for use as a high pass for subwoofers, but maybe there is another reason for not having steeper slopes.

Next build:
NEW: Added 'Parametric Equalizer' 36 dB/octave and 48 dB/octave slopes to the high-pass filter.

[hulkss]

How are these steep filters implemented?

Uli points out many issues here: http://www.acourate.com/XOWhitePaper.pdf

[randytsuch]

Hi
So a few things.

I didn't try to see if other plug ins work because I don't really care.  Hope that doesn't sound bad, but I am looking at implementing a crossover with allocator, so if I can't save my allocator settings, JRiver doesn't work for me.

I did try the save and load buttons on the top right of the screen, and they don't seem to do anything.  I don't see anything change when I try to load in a saved setting.

I looked at the JRiver crossover, and it is pretty basic.  It lets you pick from 4 different slopes, and select a frequency. 
Allocate has more flexibility in how you can design your crossover.  I'm not sure if I will also all the features Allocate has, but when you have a feature its hard to give it up.

So, I don't think I agree that I will get better results using the Parametric Equalizer function in Media Center.

Randy

[natehansen66]

Custom crossovers can be done in JR's PEQ with shelving and peak/notch filters to go with the LP and HP. They can also be 'stacked' to create higher order filters, for example 2 24/db oct hp filters for 48/db octave. Two 2nd order filters could be used with different corner freqs to get a 4th order acoustic. Just gotta think outside the box! A 1st order option would be nice as well and create more flexibility for building custom filters. While I'm at it a separate channel routing/crossover utility within DSP studio would be killer!  But it is nowhere near as flexible or customizable as Allocator, though for what it is and for the money it works quite well.

I've been playing with the Allocator demo hosted within JR, and I can't even get the channel routing correct (the top of the Allocator window is cutoff that has the settings......) so at this point it's a no go for me as well. When I saw the thread title I was hoping that you had it working and could tell us how! Doh!

[Matt]

While I'm at it a separate channel routing/crossover utility within DSP studio would be killer!

We recently added an 'Order channels' filter to Parametric Equalizer.  It's pretty handy for routing.

It was possible, but way too hard to customize the channel order before this addition.

[natehansen66]

Gotta love it, I can't say that there's any other product I've used that has this kind of support and instant results, many thanks!

Not sure I understand what the 'order channels' would be used for though. I see what it does, but why? In my application I'm copying L and R to the other channels for my active stereo setup (4-way speakers so I'm using all 8 available channels) which really makes the channel ordering moot, for me anyways.  I can't really see how it would be useful in a surround setup either.

To get back on topic though, is anybody using Allocator successfully within JR?

[AndreaT]

Hi Folks,

me too have the same big problem!

I love the Thuneau Frequency Allocator and I found JRiver a nice tool, but JRiver, even the last update I got, has a bug in the VST plug-in environment saving functionality and doesn't save Allocator settings.

I can state this, becasue I am using Allocator also under other VST hosts and all work fine (Foobar2000, i.e., correctly saves on exit).

So, I kindly solicit Matt to fix this bug.

Looking forward
Kind regards,
Andrea

[Matt]

Saving / loading allocator settings is a bug and it'll be fixed in the next build.

It's because Allocator has a big chunk of data for its settings.  We store presets in the registry here:
HKEY_CURRENT_USER\Software\JRiver\Media Center 17\Plugins\DSP\Presets\Allocator

However, we have a sanity check when loading settings from the registry to not load more than 65000 characters.  Allocator settings can be more than that, hence the problem.

We're still trying to figure out if we should just up the registry limit, or if we should switch to putting presets in a file.

[Matt]

That wasn't the only problem.

Allocator uses effFlagsProgramChunks.  This means it exposes settings as a binary blob.

We get the settings, and they seem reasonable.

But when we call effSetChunk using the settings later, it doesn't apply them to the UI.

If we instead use the older getParameter(...) / setParameter(...) method, it works.

[Matt]

I can't get Allocator to work nicely with this flow:
effBeginSetProgram
effSetChunk
effEndSetProgram

I'll email Thuneau and see if they'll work with us to figure it out.

[randytsuch]

Thanks for looking into, and addressing this issue  .

BTW, on the Allocator forum, I was told I could use the preset feature that is built into Allocator.

I tried it, and that does work correctly, so you can save and load your presets with Allocator.  
These buttons are right next to the "stream" button.


So, in the next version, will you also be able to select a default preset, or remember the last settings?

Remembering the last setting is what I am really after.  

Loading and saving works, but it will make me go configure allocator everytime I want to use Media Center.

Randy

[Matt]

So, in the next version, will you also be able to select a default preset, or remember the last settings?

Neither until the issue I posted above gets solved.

I can make it work by using legacy loading / saving, but this isn't a very good solution.

You might post a link to my question on the Allocator forum, just to be sure it gets a look.

Thanks.

[randytsuch]

Neither until the issue I posted above gets solved.

I can make it work by using legacy loading / saving, but this isn't a very good solution.

You might post a link to my question on the Allocator forum, just to be sure it gets a look.

Thanks.

Done.
Now I will cross my fingers and hope for the best.

I really think this will benefit both of your programs.

Randy

[Matt]

Jim got this message from AndreaT:

Dear JimH, as per your instruction I also posted my comment on the right thread.

I confirm once more that I am using/testing Allocator with other tools (VST hosts) and I never had this kind problem.

Foobar2000 1.10 and 1.11 with its VST Adapter 2.4 always worked fine.

I also contacted Thuneau that wrote me about saying this (quoted from his reply): "The same thing happens in Winamp. Storing of last setting on exit is the task of the VST host, not the plugin. Basically JRiver doesn't capture the state of all the VST parameters. It's a part of the VST SDK and VST spec- they just didn't bother to implement it.
Reaper for example opens a project with Allocator in it correctly- the last setting is recalled perfectly.

[Matt]

In response to Thuneau, Allocator specifies the effFlagsProgramChunks.

My understanding is this means it expects settings to be loaded with:
effBeginSetProgram
effSetChunk
effEndSetProgram

With effFlagsProgramChunks set, no calls to getParameter(...) / setParameter(...) are made.

Does this differ from how Allocator is implemented?

Thanks for any help.

[Matt]

Just a little note to say that Jan from Thuneau wrote back.

So hopefully we'll be able to figure this out before too long.

[AndreaT]

Dear Matt,

thanks for your update. Also Jan wrote me telling that are working together on the case.

I got now your last build and I am going to test it this night (now is 7 pm in Italy).

I will update you tomorrow.

Kind regards,
Andrea.

[randytsuch]

Any news?

Randy

[Matt]

I've written to Jan a couple times.  He's been friendly, but hasn't provided any technical details yet.

I'll follow-up with him later this week if I don't hear more.

[Matt]

This is the last I've heard:

On 5/14/2012 11:08 PM, feedback at thuneau dot com wrote:
> Hi Matt,
> I sent everything off to my VST specialist, but he is in the middle of
> a new product release, so he probably didn't have time to test.
> I will remind him one more time.
>
> Jan


I've written a couple times since. 

If this issue is important to you, you might try mailing feedback at thuneau dot com yourself.  I think the technical issue will probably be simple, but we need their help.

Thanks.

[BayensF]

Hi,

Any news from them?

[Matt]

Hi,

Any news from them?

No. 

Please write them:  feedback at thuneau dot com.

Maybe if enough people ask, they'll work with us to get it solved.

[BayensF]

Hi Matt,

I did, and find below the reply:

Hi Fred,

We are in process of troubleshooting the JRiver player Allocator compatibility. I don’t know exact date it will all work but I am on it.
I will email you when it all works reliably.

Thanks,

Jan

I will let you know when it works and how it works.

[TonyK]

Did this matter ever get resolved, as this is just what i'm looking for.

Regards, Tony

[Matt]

I sent this email on 7/3/2012 and again on 7/10/2012:

Code: [Select]

Hi Denis,

Thanks for the VST code.

However, running the same code does not update the user interface.

Would you be willing to try in Media Center.  Download here:
http://jriver.com/download.html

It will look like this (use Manage Plug-ins at the bottom of DSP Studio to add the VST):


I load the chunk, but the user interface doesn't change.

I added your extra code that set the program name, but that didn't matter:
char cProgramName[kVstMaxProgNameLen] = { 0 };
strcpy(cProgramName, "default");
Dispatch(effSetProgramName, 0, 0, (void *) &cProgramName[0]);

I'm hopeful that if you just step it in the debugger with a debug compile of your VST, you'll see what's happening.

Thanks for your help,

Matt Ashland
JRiver, Inc.
They never replied.  I've given up.

Maybe you could try asking them:
Denis Malygin (developer): deetune at yahoo dot com
Thuneau (company): feedback at thuneau dot com

Thanks.

[natehansen66]

Did this matter ever get resolved, as this is just what i'm looking for.

Regards, Tony

If you don't plan on using the Phase Arbitrator IMO the PEQ in MC works just as well as Allocator, with many more filters at your disposal.

[TonyK]

Thanks, I will give it a go.