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[bassmann]

Hi there,

I'm planning a build of a new HTPC and would like thoughts on how much power I need, but balanced by a low wattage CPU as I plan to use a fanless CPU cooler like a Silverstone NT01-E, therefore i need something at 65w or less.

I'm aiming to quiet the HTPC but achieve maximum performance.

Here's what I expect the CPU to handle;
- System is a dedicated HTPC and only needs to support JR18 but play all codecs up to full bluray including TrueHD and DTSHD decoding
- Soundcard is a Profire610 on firewire card (have this now)
- AMD Radeon HD 6770 with 1GB GDDR5 (have this now)
- DSP from 3rd party plugins
       - Voxengo HarmoniEQ - will be running 7para's on each of the 5.1 channels
       - Some 3rd part bass management plugin (TBC)
       - Red October HQ
       - Any other performance tweats in JR18 to get best audio and video quality

On CPU's, a starting point is the S series processors like the i5-3550s, i5-3570s or the i5-3450s and i5-3470s which meet the 65w requirement.
Would any of these do the job, which provides the best value/performance balance?

I've also looked at the intel low power CPU's like the i5-3470t (35w) or the i5-3570t (45w) but I'm concerned they might not have enough grunt given the std clock rate is severely compromised. The i5-3570t has 6mb cache compared to 3mb cache on the i5-3470t so might be a better choice on this path...

Any thoughts on the T series CPU's or should I stick with the S CPU's. Which one? Why?

Regards,

Basmann

[Sparks67]

1) So do you plan to build a fanless Silent HTPC?  
2) Do you plan to put this HTPC in your stereo cabinet or near the TV?
If you are building an HTPC, then you want it is as silent as possible.  Hard drives are noisy, but if you chose thunderbolt motherboard then you can put the hard drives away from the HTPC.

Here is some specs of a company that makes them now.  You can just use their specs and build your own for less cost.  
http://www.endpcnoise.com/cgi-bin/e/std/sku=hfx_classic_fanless_pc.html
Asus Thunderbolt Pro or the Premium doesn't have 1394 (firewire), so substitute it for this Thunderbolt motherboard.
Gigabyte GA-Z77X-UP5-TH (Intel certified for Dual thunderbolt ports.  Allows up to 12 thunderbolt devices to be attached to those ports)


The case endless is only available from them in the USA.  The hfx case is from Austria.   http://www.hfx.at/
All their cooling has to be bought at endpcnoise.com, because they are the only distributor in the USA for Hfx.  
If you plan on a passive power supply then you need to change the video card.  
1)   Your video card requires 400 watts, so you have to change that.  
    a) Passive Power supply from Silverstone only has 2 different watts available 400 or 500 watts http://www.endpcnoise.com/cgi-bin/e/more_info/1106387.html  Kingwin has a silent power supply that is 500 watts at endpcnoise.
    b) Endpcnoise offers some other options for more watts.   http://www.endpcnoise.com/cgi-bin/e/std/category=Quiet_Power_Supplies.html
2) SSD or Hard drives.  SSD drives only use 3 watts, while hard drives use 30 watts.  
   a) Areca has nice Thunderbolt case, if you need lot of drives.  http://www.areca.com.tw/products/thunderbolt.htm
   b) Sans Digital and Promise also offer similar cases like this for Thunderbolt.
   c) Sumitomo Electric Optical Thunderbolt cables http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/04/17/idUS10018+17-Apr-2012+BW20120417  
       1) Possible suppliers will be Belkin or Amazon in the USA.
3) Cpu Choice depends on your needs.  Here is the one that I bought and it fits your 65 watt requirement.  
   a) Intel Core i7-3770S Ivy Bridge 3.1GHz (3.9GHz Turbo) LGA 1155 65W  (Actually, I am using the Intel 4000 for video at the moment, but I will eventualyl get a new video card in the future.)

J river Media Center 18 is going to Mac OS X, but if you plan to do that.  Then you might want to follow this guide on your hardware.  
http://tonymacx86.blogspot.com/search/label/CustoMac   Currently only USB audio is working on Mountain Lion, but I know they done firewire devices in the past.  That is if you are interested in going to Mac OS X.   You can have both Windows and Mac OS X.  
 
P.S. There is several options regarding the HTPC cases.  I have used Lian Li HTPC cases in the past, but I do like the Hfx case.   There is several options on the
market.   The intel hd4000 cpu works great for now, but I will be upgrading to 4k video.  So, I will be going to a new video card.  So, your choice of the HTPC case needs to accommodate a full length video card, if you plan for that in the future.  There is other options if you don't want a video card that takes up dual slots like most consumer cards.  The other option is the Professional cards like firepro.  These cards do more Hz for 3d in 4k, and at less watts. 

[jmone]

For what it is worth, my HTPC Build is based on the Shuttle SFF (same height as AV Equipment), with a i7-2600K (don't need the K but it was only $10 more), SSD for the OS/MC etc, ODD for disks and all media is pulled over the network.  I no longer use a discrete GPU as the IGP3000 on the 2600 (and the newer IGP4000 on the 2700) works fine with ROHQ.  Now the reason for the i7 over lower CPU's is that you have plenty of Horse Power to decode video files if you are not using HW Acceleration OR that the format being decoded is not supported by HW Acceleration (Eg AVI-DV).

[bassmann]

Thanks for that,

I forgot to mention I've already got a case - Silverstone GD06. Just looking for new MOBO, CPU and RAM.
I'm ok to run hardware acceleration on the card but i'll need CPU for DSP.

[Sparks67]

Thanks for that,

I forgot to mention I've already got a case - Silverstone GD06. Just looking for new MOBO, CPU and RAM.
I'm ok to run hardware acceleration on the card but i'll need CPU for DSP.

You are limited to 3 different size motherboards. Micro-ATX, DTX, Mini-ITX
Typically, when I build an HTPC then I use an ATX size motherboard.  Just gives me room to expand.  So you have to go to Newegg, and select the motherboard size.  If you use Micro-ATX and LGA 1155, then you have 6 choices in Motherboards. 
http://www.newegg.com/Product/ProductList.aspx?Submit=ENE&N=100007627%20600008975%20600009017%20600093976&IsNodeId=1&name=LGA%201155&ShowDeactivatedMark=False

I didn't see DTX on newegg website. 

Mini-ITX is one motherboard.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813121597

LGA 1155 will allow you to use Ivy bridge processor. 

You don't have a thunderbolt option with that case, so you be limited on hard drive space. 

[bassmann]

Hi all,

Just trying to get my head around this Thunderbolt technology, its the first i'd heard of it.

In a nutshell, it seems to be a high speed port to connect devices.

I'm also thinking about the pros and cons of Thunderbolt vs a NAS on a gigabit network.
- Thunderbolt would be faster
- NAS would be assesible to all PC's on the network whereas a shared Thnderbolt device would require the connected PC to be on.

What else is there? Assume I;ve got 2 MC's at different ends of the house on a gigabit network.

[Sparks67]

Hi all,

Just trying to get my head around this Thunderbolt technology, its the first i'd heard of it.

In a nutshell, it seems to be a high speed port to connect devices.

I'm also thinking about the pros and cons of Thunderbolt vs a NAS on a gigabit network.
- Thunderbolt would be faster
- NAS would be assesible to all PC's on the network whereas a shared Thnderbolt device would require the connected PC to be on.

What else is there? Assume I;ve got 2 MC's at different ends of the house on a gigabit network.

Here is a link to the list of devices that are available, there is more in development.  This is short list. 
https://thunderbolttechnology.net/sites/default/files/Thunderbolt-devices-computex.pdf

You still have a gigabyte network with Thunderbolt. NAS is limited in terms of bandwidth, and terms of expansion in the future.  Thunderbolt was developed more for higher bandwidth of UHDTV (4k and 8k) video.  If I can daisy chain devices together, then gives me a flexible system.  (For example, I might want a Thunderbolt storage and a monitor)

Personally, I think Thunderbolt is designed to replace the HDMI matrix  switch.  You might still have HDMI, but you need more bandwith to transmit the audio and video at longer distances.  HDMI is limited to about 50 feet, according to my hometheater installer.  In theory, HDMI can go to 125 feet, but currently the problem has been the handshaking that needs to occur. So your are limited to around 50 feet. 

[glynor]

Thunderbolt is PCI express on an external cable, combined with DisplayPort.  It is a very nice system designed by Intel (originally codenamed LightPeak).  A very wide variety of devices can be connected over Thunderbolt, because it is simply PCIe.

For example, you can buy an actual PCIe "slot" in an external case, and use it with a laptop (or other small form factor box) to allow you to use internal-style PCIe slot cards with computers that otherwise wouldn't be able to support them.  There are all sorts of awesome expansion capabilities (add FibreChannel or 10Gbe to a laptop?) that are possible with Thunderbolt from simple to extremely flexible.

[Sparks67]

Here is a video showing Apple MacBook Air 13" running Windows 7 64bit via Boot Camp with an active Thunderbolt port connected to Sonnet Chassis with a RED Rocket installed delivering full 4K playback on Ultra Lightweight notebook.   http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jKx-cr4bi74

Here is a briefing on DisplayPort, but it tells the future of computer graphic cards.  http://www.vesa.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/ICCE-Presentation-on-VESA-DisplayPort.pdf  VGA and DVI are to be replaced with DisplayPort.  HDMi is based off DVI.   There is a slide with a graphic that is titled "DisplayPort Physical Layer Overview", well as bandwidth increases then Displayport is the only technology that can be increased. 

[sKiZo]

Don't want to ignore fans ... I bought a Thermaltake BACH case mostly for it's looks, and because it looks like a stereo component (horizontal format) - then found out it was noisy as all get out due to the small 60mm fans. Small = noisy apparently. I ended up replacing them all with SilentX which helped, but the PS was still quite noisy because it also used two smallish 80mm fans. Probably doesn't help that I'm pushing the limit for the watt rating also. I did pick up on an ATX power supply that has the large fan in the side that I'll be installing shortly.

Anyway, I also got a 5¼ drive bay fan controller and route all the fans thru that. Still a bit noisy but if I set them any lower I start to get temp alarms. Arghh!!

I also lined the cabinet where I park it with cork to minimize any reflected noise. Helped some.

So ... one last step. I cut a great honking hole in the top of the case and dropped one of these on top.



Running that with a USB wall wart. That big fan runs quiet enough I was able to turn all the rest down to minimum. I'm seriously considering just disconnecting the small fans in the case and see what happens.

<FIRE! FIRE! FIRE!>

Hope your little project goes better ... 

[Sparks67]

Don't want to ignore fans ... I bought a Thermaltake BACH case mostly for it's looks, and because it looks like a stereo component (horizontal format) - then found out it was noisy as all get out due to the small 60mm fans. Small = noisy apparently. I ended up replacing them all with SilentX which helped, but the PS was still quite noisy because it also used two smallish 80mm fans. Probably doesn't help that I'm pushing the limit for the watt rating also. I did pick up on an ATX power supply that has the large fan in the side that I'll be installing shortly.

Anyway, I also got a 5¼ drive bay fan controller and route all the fans thru that. Still a bit noisy but if I set them any lower I start to get temp alarms. Arghh!!

I also lined the cabinet where I park it with cork to minimize any reflected noise. Helped some.

So ... one last step. I cut a great honking hole in the top of the case and dropped one of these on top.

My HTPC uses a Passive Power supply from Kingwin.  http://kingwin.com/products/cate/power_supplies/str_500.asp  
Kingwin is the best power supply that I bought so far.  It can do up to 600 watts. (overclocked) I am just using the stock cooler on the CPU.  I do have 2 80 mm fans that were upgraded in the past too.  I love to be able to check the noise level, but it is the quietest pc that I built so far. The case is Lian Li PC-C33 http://www.lian-li.com/v2/en/product/product06.php?pr_index=283&cl_index=1&sc_index=25&ss_index=62

Currently using Intel 4000HD, but I do plan to upgrade to a video card in the future.  That case allows me to have a larger video card in the future, but I am restricted on the watts with the power supply.
Boot drive is SanDisk Extreme SATA 6Gb/s 120GB SSD (I have to time the boot time, but I say less 10 seconds)  
Corsair GT 480GB Sata 6B/sec 480GB SSD
Intel Core i7-3770S Ivy Bridge 3.1GHz (3.9GHz Turbo) LGA 1155 65W for the Cpu.  
16 Gigs of Gskill Ram
Windows 7 Professional
I have to use Nvidia for a Mac OS X build, so looking at the options right now.  

I have another pc that has the rest of the drives that I am building with new Chenbro SR10769-C0 case that holds 11 hard drives.  You can go up to 13 drives, but you wouldn't have an optical drive.   Chenbro has these accessories that allows you to add hot swap drives, and turn 2 (5 1/4 drives into 3 hard drives) has built in fan.  I will have 1 SSD drive in this case, but you can have 2 SSD in hot swap.  

Although, I can expand via thunderbolt on both pc's.    

[sKiZo]

Got me thinking on a new HTPC for sure ...

I expect my current setup would be ranked right below primitive in the media world. Dual core AMD Phenom with a couple gigs of DDR2 and an Nvidia 6800 for video. Hard drives are pretty noisy too, especially the Barracuda I'm using for the system and software. Also running two 1gig WD drives in RAID for media files.

I checked out the End PC Noise link and they've got some interesting looking stuff there. This one especially caught my eyeball ...

http://www.endpcnoise.com/cgi-bin/e/std/sku=fusion_media_pc.html

They do the build. I'm a fan of Asus and I've heard a lot of good about their proprietary "DIGI+ VRM" signal control which is supposed to be killer for AV apps without having to deal with all this adaptive vs asynchronus garbage. My "gotta have" options include a 120gb SS drive for OS and programs, and a 2tb data drive for media as well as 8 gig of DDR3 memory - that prices out at less than $1400 for the box, which sounds pretty reasonable. All my peripherals are good so I can re-use those. I like the looks of the Silverstone case, and there's no great honking holes in it. <G>

Also includes Windows 7 Premium, which I expect is a good thing. I'm currently using Windows XP, and that's definitely getting pushed by even basic multimedia, even running SP3 and a whole bunch of tweaks. I don't expect to install RAID on a new box, as external USB drives are coming right down there on price, and it's easy enough to clone (also a big fan of Acronis True Image for that.) SMART drives will usually give you plenty of warning before they fail, and it's not like you don't have to back up RAID anyway.

Only minus I see is it doesn't come with a coaxial out. It does have optical, and it does have an extra S/PDIF header on the board so I could use an add on card. Not sure how important that would be as my DAC has optical also. Also, seems sort of odd that they don't offer an option for a fanless power supply. I'd have to double check that before signing on the dotted line. Maybe see if I can order without a PS and go elsewhere for fanless? I did take a look at that Kingwin you mentioned - $170! Yeowch!!

*PS ... if anybody wants to take a peek at their TV tuner options and let me know if they're decent, I might go for that as well. So far, I'm mostly audio, but hey ... who knows? If nothing else, I got a lot of OTA in my area. Maybe somewhere down the road do the PVR thing with the satellite?

Just thinking out loud here. Maybe do my Christmas shopping early - Black Friday comes in September now, don't it? <G>

<EDIT>

I emailed on the Fusion box - it should run at about 22-24dba with my options and configuration.

[Sparks67]

You can build your own for lot less.   If you plan for doing Mac OS X in the future, then you need to build with Intel.   

For an HTPC, you need to keep the hard drive out of the case, and that where thunderbolt will work in the future.
The negative thing about the AMD fusion is that it is based on micro ATX motherboard.  I am not sure why people want
to build a small pc, but trust me you will expand your system in the future.  So plan around an ATX motherboard.   With Ivy bridge, you have built in video card.

Asus or Gigabyte ATX thunderbolt motherboard is 249 Newegg
Intel Core i7-3770S Ivy Bridge 3.1GHz (3.9GHz Turbo) LGA 1155 65W for the Cpu.    $309  (You can go less of processor for less cost) Newegg
KingWin Stryker 500-Watt ATX 500 Fanless Power Supply STR-500 ($160) Amazon  (Modular cords & 5 year warranty)
G.SKILL Ripjaws X Series 16GB (2 x 8GB) 240-Pin DDR3 SDRAM DDR3 1600 ($105) Newegg
SanDisk Extreme SSD 120 GB SATA 6.0 ($99) Amazon
Case size will be your choice, but recommend that you think about expansion in the future ($200 estimate)
If you have the disk for Windows XP, then you can get the upgrade for Windows 7.  ($90 to $150 depends on the home or professional) for upgrade
Seagate Barracuda 7200 3 TB 7200RPM SATA 6 Gb/s NCQ 64MB Cache 3.5-Inch Internal Bare ($150)  Amazon
Total is about $1422 with Professional version of Windows 7 upgrade  (Professional allows you to use more ram)

I just use the Stock cpu cooler, but you could spend a little on fans for the case. Lian-Li has good fans with their cases.  Depends on your case selection, there is several out there. External USB drives are rather slow.  I recommend that you think about Intel than AMD.   My specs are just a little more than $1400, but you get better equipment.   You can expand your system in the future.  My choice was to base it on ATX size motherboard. 
Audio card is optional, but Asus Xonar Essence ST would be a good card.  I was able to find the H6, here is the store that sells them.  They are new in the box.
http://www.langtoninfo.co.uk/showitem.aspx?isbn=4719543051054&loc=GBP  Yes, it is in UK.  Shipping cost via airmail on 2 of them was only $9 us.  I think it was $75 a card.  You can't buy them in the USA.   

[sKiZo]

Interesting stuff, and food for thought. Thunderbolt is new to me, but then again, that includes most anything past CP/M (all you youngsters, go ahead and gooooogle it.)

I guess the Thunderbolt is a Mac thing that's migrating over to the PC world now. Looks like thunderbolt external drives are running around $240 for a one gigger, and you can apparently park them quite a distance from the HTPC. I found a 15 foot cable without even trying all that hard. Two thunderbolt outputs seems to be the standard, and that would be enough to handle both an external data drive AND the video using the intel cpu. There's also adapter cables for thunderbolt to HDMI or DVI if you don't want to toss an existing monitor just yet. Kewl.

Put passive coolers on the cpu and bridge chips, and would your really even need any additional case fans? I imagine you'd still need airflow over the heatsink on the fanless power supply ...

* If I go with an ATX board, then I'd end up re-using the TT Bach case. Even with the great honking hole in the top, it's still a nice looking case.



Which reminds me ... is JRiver ever gonna support the IMON LCD display panel?? <harumph>  

[Sparks67]

Thunderbolt was designed by Apple and Intel.  This year is first for the Windows computers, but I list components that you can build your own mac os X. 
http://tonymacx86.blogspot.com/search/label/CustoMac  Thunderbolt plans to offer optical cables 20M long and I seen a few articles that it could be up to 40M long. 

Case design is your choice, but there is plenty of options available.  My Lian-Li doesn't have any holes in the top. 
Cpu cooler is not making any noise.  I can add a passive cooler on the cpu and bridge, but it is running at 32C now.   So why bother?   
My case choice allows plenty of air flow, but I do have fans in the back of the case.  Here is a review on the case.  http://www.pcper.com/reviews/Cases-and-Cooling/Kingwin-Stryker-500W-Fanless-Power-Supply-Review/Efficiency-Differential-T

[glynor]

Thunderbolt was designed by Apple and Intel.

Intel.

Apple was the first (and exclusive at first) vendor, and helped (somewhat) with the final connector design (mating LightPeak to the Mini DisplayPort connector), but LightPeak/ThunderBolt is an Intel designed bus system.  Intel sells the controllers.  Intel certifies OEM hardware.  Intel designed it.

[Sparks67]

Intel.

Apple was the first (and exclusive at first) vendor, and helped (somewhat) with the final connector design (mating LightPeak to the Mini DisplayPort connector), but LightPeak/ThunderBolt is an Intel designed bus system.  Intel sells the controllers.  Intel certifies OEM hardware.  Intel designed it.

It was a collaboration effort between apple and intel.   http://www.appleinsider.com/articles/11/05/20/thunderbolt_trademark_rights_will_be_transferred_from_apple_to_intel.html   According to that article, but you if want to tracing the development cycle, then it might be developed by another company or person.  Probably need to follow the patents.  (Google patents)  I have no interest in tracing it back, but was rather shocked on who developed UHDTV technology.   

People seem to think that Sony developed Bluray.   No!   The key technology was invented by Shugi Nakamura http://archive.sciencewatch.com/jan-feb2000/sw_jan-feb2000_page3.htm



 

[glynor]

It was a collaboration effort between apple and intel.   http://www.appleinsider.com/articles/11/05/20/thunderbolt_trademark_rights_will_be_transferred_from_apple_to_intel.html  

It was Apple's name (ThunderBolt) and they helped Intel with "technical details" around the deployments.  In other words, they helped decide to use the Mini DisplayPort connector, and helped Intel with integration into their motherboards/connectors.  Otherwise, LightPeak is an Intel bus standard, long-developed and hyped to no-end for years.

That the paragon of journalistic excellence they have over there at AppleInsider exaggerated Apple's involvement a bit does not surprise me in the least.

[Sparks67]

The daisy feature of thunderbolt goes back to 1982 with Atari computers.  Typically, if I tracing the origin of the technology then I do a patent search.  I just did a brief search, but I didn't see an intel patent.  Which is odd for a company that claims that they designed it.

I now have 2 motherboards with thunderbolt, so I think it is best design so far. The use of optical fiber cable will give us future expand ability in the future.  On my iPhone and keep making typos.