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Author Topic: what's up with 4TB drives?  (Read 28052 times)

rjm

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what's up with 4TB drives?
« on: August 22, 2012, 08:33:44 pm »

I am specing a new system and I want to use 4TB drives.

Based on several recent threads here I thought 4TB drives would be plentiful and reasonably priced. Just checked my favorite supplier (NCIX) and they only have one model of a Hitachi drive in stock and price per TB is too high.

Does anyone know when 4TB drives will be available from WD and Seagate at a reasonable price? I like to buy different brands/models for my backup drives to minimize systemic risks.
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Re: what's up with 4TB drives?
« Reply #1 on: August 22, 2012, 08:43:42 pm »

The 4TB Hitachi 7200 Deskstar was on sale at B&H only a couple of weeks ago for $250(ish) which I thougt was not to bad.  I now have six of them.
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rjm

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Re: what's up with 4TB drives?
« Reply #2 on: August 22, 2012, 08:46:40 pm »

Thanks. $322 here.

If anyone knows what's up with WD and Seagate please comment.
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jmone

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Re: what's up with 4TB drives?
« Reply #3 on: August 22, 2012, 09:00:13 pm »

For us in Oz 4TB drives are not generally available and those reselling them have marked them up heaps, which is why I was buying from B&H - they ship internationally and it added about $25 per drive.

All I know is the WD has bought the HDD division from Hitachi.... 
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glynor

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Re: what's up with 4TB drives?
« Reply #4 on: August 22, 2012, 11:04:49 pm »

All I know is the WD has bought the HDD division from Hitachi....  

And Seagate bought LaCie and Samsung.... Which means there are really only two left.

But, regarding capacities, I suspect the real answer is something like this:

* Over the past few years, platter density improvements and SSD-based caching systems meant that Data Center buyers are no longer very interested in paying top dollar for high-performing 10k RPM SAS drives.  While they got an overall price bump from the flood, Enterprise buying has been dramatically shifting towards the value segment.  Why pay top dollar for a high performing, reliable SAS drive?  Just buy a bunch of cheap, huge "green" drives (which has the bonus that you can call it part of a power-saving initiative) and stick them behind a SSD cache with a huge DRAM cache (oh yeah, DRAM prices plummeted too).
* Conveniently, many of the newfangled RAID-like systems provided more economical and convenient redundancy protections.  These systems have improved and gotten cheaper, and have become much more widespread (driven by vendors like NetApp), so there is less of a motivation for Enterprise buyers to spend extra on "RAID-certified" class drives for reliability.
* The demand "portfolio" has been slowly shifting away from consumer-driven and towards enterprise-driven.*  PC sales are down everywhere, again (except Apple), and much of the rest of high-end consumer use has shifted to SSDs.  SSD manufacturers took advantage of the spike in magnetic storage costs to dramatically cut prices on (and spur consumer adoption of) NAND-based storage solutions.  There's no longer any money at all in the lower capacity drives (as what wasn't eaten by SSDs raced to the bottom).
* On the other hand, data center storage needs are growing faster than ever.  Suddenly, filling all those Dell PCs is a much smaller slice of your business than filling all of those racks at Facebook and Twitter and Amazon E3.

Then...

* Platter density developments stalled somewhat (or were set back) due to the flood.
* While there was a real production problem from the flood, WD and Seagate's dominant positions (and clout with suppliers) allowed them to suck up most of the remaining capacity.  In other words, it was really tough to get parts, but WD and Seagate were able to ensure that they received the lion's share of what was available.  This hurt the smaller players (and they weren't able to profit as much from the price gouging windfall).
* The consumer-to-enterprise shift, combined with the real supply constraint from the flood, allowed the two "winners" to get and maintain higher margins for their high-capacity drives for the first time... Ever, probably.
* These higher margins not only taught both WD and Seagate a lesson, it gave the biggest two players suddenly large cash reserves that they could use to consolidate the market (thereby helping to preserve the higher margins for longer).

So... In the recent past, WD and Seagate and HGST and Samsung Storage were in a "race" to continually bring out the new "biggest drive".  Because, the biggest drives were the only drives that commanded big margins.  Soon after the newfangled 4TB drive came out with the higher platter densities, the bottom would fall out on the lower-capacity drives.  Sure, they'd keep selling the higher-margin 7200 RPM "Black" and "RAID" drives, but no one was buying them in massive numbers anymore, so they were a much smaller percent of the bottom line and couldn't hold overall margins up anymore.

As an example, I bought two 3TB "Green" drives just before the flood for $119 shipped.  That price had been steadily, but quickly, falling since the initial 4TB drives came out.  So, the vendors are motivated to ship the highest capacity drives they can.

Now, they've consolidated, and the margins on those 2TB drives are holding steady.  The new platters aren't coming online as quickly as they would have because of the flood, but there's no rush.  Why put out a 5 platter drive to hit that 4TB number now, when you can sell two 2TB drives for more money?  And, if you aren't "wasting" margin on your precious top-tier drive by including a metric ton of platters, there's no drive to push on the engineering nerds to accelerate the platter density jump (so that you can get that sweet couple of quarters where you're now selling a 4 or 3 platter drive for the same price/capacity that you were with a 5-platter drive).  You stop calling their managers demanding progress every five days, and they let their workers use vacation days and whatnot.

Plus... Like I said, they learned a lesson, and there was a massive consolidation in the market.  We have an effective duopoly now.  Their only real threat is NAND, and so long as the "other guy" doesn't mess with you too much, you can both sit and take your time and actually make some nice money on the top capacity drives.

So, those higher capacity platters will come, and the 4TB drives will become the new 2TB drives (and so on and so forth), but they're just not in the rush that they were 18 months ago.  NAND is way off from threatening the high-capacity part of the game, and with fewer competitors, the game got way easier to play.

* This is why we saw Warranty length plunge over the past few years.  The shift from Consumer-driven to Enterprise-driven market, meant that the companies were motivated to lower warranty coverage on their "consumer" drives, in order to prop-up demand for the enterprise-focused ones (buying departments often love warranties).  But, the manufacturers had long since gotten completely non-reality based with their MTBF numbers, so enterprise users no longer believed them that the high-priced "RAID-class" drives really were better than the consumer cheapo drives.  So, we have enterprises saying "Who cares if it dies.  Buy two of the cheap ones instead.  Replace them when they die."  (The better modern RAID-like systems give them this luxury.)
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rjm

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Re: what's up with 4TB drives?
« Reply #5 on: August 22, 2012, 11:16:56 pm »

Wonderful summary, thanks Glynor!

I can wait a few months but not 6 months. It sounds like I might be wise to go with 3TB drives which are available from both vendors at a reasonable price.

Agree? Or do you think we'll see more 4TB drives in less than 90 days?
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jmone

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Re: what's up with 4TB drives?
« Reply #6 on: August 22, 2012, 11:25:06 pm »

Here is the other option (though I decided against it due to WTY issues), but there is plentiful supply of 4TB Drives in USB Enclosures.... and wait for it.... they are cheaper than bare drives --> http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/846330-REG/Hitachi_0S03503_4TB_Touro_Deskpro_Hard.html

I went so far as to watch of few You Tube vids on pulling these drives out of these enclosures...

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glynor

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Re: what's up with 4TB drives?
« Reply #7 on: August 22, 2012, 11:35:28 pm »

I don't know for sure... But that's what it looks like to me.

I actually spent a few hours just the other night researching just this question.  I was curious too.  I didn't really find much insightful analysis, but I did read a lot about the stuff about enterprises buying cheaper and cheaper drives.  Now, I should clarify, that most big enterprises still aren't really buying "green" consumer drives.  But they sure-as-hell are buying order-of-magnitude cheaper SATA drives (HGST Ultrastars seem particularly popular) and the market for those "real" FC and SAS drives (the 10k RPM crazy drives) has all-but-completely evaporated.

So, I combined that with what I knew to be true about the consumer market, and then looked at what happened since the flood, and...

I don't know, it just makes sense.  Like I said above, when you just have one big competitor (in the same boat as you) to worry about, why break your neck and reduce margins by shipping a 5-platter 4TB drive now?  You're selling every 2TB drive you can make, and the capacity is just now starting to get back to normal... And the margins on those 2TB drives are holding.  They're not as awesome as the big 4TB ones, but that's okay.  You just bought HGST.  Sell them through that label, at lower volumes, and keep overall margins higher as long as you possibly can.

Also, note:  I revised the above a bunch because I was writing it completely off of the top of my head at first, and when I read it back after, it was a jumbled mess.  It says basically the same stuff, but I moved things around and made it much more readable/clear.
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rjm

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Re: what's up with 4TB drives?
« Reply #8 on: August 23, 2012, 12:13:29 am »

I think you are right because it makes sense. I would add that net energy per capita worldwide has been falling for a few years which makes it difficult for the world to service it's high debt levels and makes real growth all but impossible which kills demand and puts pressure on margins, especially for discretionary items (like high end hard drives), which makes it hard to justify R&D for higher density platters.
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rjm

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Re: what's up with 4TB drives?
« Reply #9 on: August 23, 2012, 12:28:40 am »

Here is the other option (though I decided against it due to WTY issues), but there is plentiful supply of 4TB Drives in USB Enclosures.... and wait for it.... they are cheaper than bare drives --> http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/846330-REG/Hitachi_0S03503_4TB_Touro_Deskpro_Hard.html
I went so far as to watch of few You Tube vids on pulling these drives out of these enclosures...
Thanks. I also came across this option but I'm not seeing the 4TB external drives at a reasonable price here in B.C. Canada.
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glynor

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Re: what's up with 4TB drives?
« Reply #10 on: August 23, 2012, 12:43:25 am »

Thanks. I also came across this option but I'm not seeing the 4TB external drives at a reasonable price here in B.C. Canada.

I will also say this... I track drive prices almost constantly (in the US, but Canada tracks us pretty well except that they gouge you more).  At all times I have a few wishlists on Newegg of various drives I want to track sales and whatnot.  I think I have 6 wishlists going at Newegg right now just for different storage options.*

The current 2-week period is NOT a particularly good time to buy hard drives.  They have prices up and few sales because (I'm guessing) it is back-to-school time and so overall PC shipments are up (reducing supply).  The 2.5TB Green is a reasonably good price right now, but there aren't many discount codes out there or anything.  Certainly no particularly appealing deals, and lots out of stock.

I'm trying my darndest to wait till October/November.  But you guys talking about all your new fancy-pants storage systems is making me twitch.

* And Camelegg is about the greatest thing ever.  Do they have a CamelNCIX?
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rjm

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Re: what's up with 4TB drives?
« Reply #11 on: August 23, 2012, 01:09:23 am »

No CamelNCIX. Just a weekly email with surprise sales items. It pays to be patient.
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Listener

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Re: what's up with 4TB drives?
« Reply #12 on: August 23, 2012, 07:12:17 pm »

And Seagate bought LaCie and Samsung.... Which means there are really only two left.

* While there was a real production problem from the flood, WD and Seagate's dominant positions (and clout with suppliers) allowed them to suck up most of the remaining capacity.  In other words, it was really tough to get parts, but WD and Seagate were able to ensure that they received the lion's share of what was available.  This hurt the smaller players (and they weren't able to profit as much from the price gouging windfall).
* The consumer-to-enterprise shift, combined with the real supply constraint from the flood, allowed the two "winners" to get and maintain higher margins for their high-capacity drives for the first time... Ever, probably.
* These higher margins not only taught both WD and Seagate a lesson, it gave the biggest two players suddenly large cash reserves that they could use to consolidate the market (thereby helping to preserve the higher margins for longer).
...
So... In the recent past, WD and Seagate and HGST and Samsung Storage were in a "race" to continually bring out the new "biggest drive".  Because, the biggest drives were the only drives that commanded big margins.  Soon after the newfangled 4TB drive came out with the higher platter densities, the bottom would fall out on the lower-capacity drives.  Sure, they'd keep selling the higher-margin 7200 RPM "Black" and "RAID" drives, but no one was buying them in massive numbers anymore, so they were a much smaller percent of the bottom line and couldn't hold overall margins up anymore.


Glynor, you made a number of good observations.

I don't agree with your chronology for the acquisitions of Samsung's and Fujitsu's disk drive units.  The Seagate / Samsung merger deal was underway long before the floods in Thailand.

http://bits.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/12/20/seagate-samsung-acquisition/

The Fujitsu / Western Digital merger deal was also underway before the floods:

http://www.cio.com.au/article/388433/seagate_western_digital_merger_deals_face_ec_probe/#closeme

and

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/11/23/eu_approves_wd_hgst_buy/

---
I am not sure that LaCie manufactured raw disk drives.  I thought that they just packaged drives in external enclosures with USB, Firewire / Thunderbolt / NAS interfaces.

Bill
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glynor

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Re: what's up with 4TB drives?
« Reply #13 on: August 23, 2012, 10:07:50 pm »

I don't agree with your chronology for the acquisitions of Samsung's and Fujitsu's disk drive units.

You're totally right.  I knew the Seagate/Samsung deal was pre-flood, but I thought HGST was after.  I had the chronology wrong.

Hmmm... Well, the central point still holds, I think.

As far as LaCie, you're right, though I didn't ever mean to imply that they did.  No, they were a high margin consumer focused player, not a commodity manufacturer, which is why they'll probably keep that brand distinct.
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Sparks67

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Re: what's up with 4TB drives?
« Reply #14 on: August 25, 2012, 07:11:28 pm »

And Seagate bought LaCie and Samsung.... Which means there are really only two left.

But, regarding capacities, I suspect the real answer is something like this:

* Over the past few years, platter density improvements and SSD-based caching systems meant that Data Center buyers are no longer very interested in paying top dollar for high-performing 10k RPM SAS drives.  While they got an overall price bump from the flood, Enterprise buying has been dramatically shifting towards the value segment.  Why pay top dollar for a high performing, reliable SAS drive?  Just buy a bunch of cheap, huge "green" drives (which has the bonus that you can call it part of a power-saving initiative) and stick them behind a SSD cache with a huge DRAM cache (oh yeah, DRAM prices plummeted too).
* Conveniently, many of the newfangled RAID-like systems provided more economical and convenient redundancy protections.  These systems have improved and gotten cheaper, and have become much more widespread (driven by vendors like NetApp), so there is less of a motivation for Enterprise buyers to spend extra on "RAID-certified" class drives for reliability.

Disagree with your statement above.  I have several friends that work in large data centers, and their companies still by real FC drives or SAS drives.  Why?  It costs them less than replacing a drive every six months.  The two things that a company is looking at is speed and reliability.  Also, majority of the companies will use either Areca Raid Controller or LSI.  I don't own a LSI, but I own 2 Areca Raid Controllers.  Areca is rather picky on the brand and model of drive that you buy for it.  Yes, it can use SAS or SATA II, but I tried a non raid certified drive and it won't work at all.  Majority of your large Enterprise data centers don't buy their computer equipment, but they operate under contract with a vendor. 

Anyway, the question regarding the 4TB drives.  Well, it is too many platters on that size hard drive.  I think it is better to stick with 3TB Seagate SATA III hard drive that is based 3 (1TB platters) less chance for failure.  I bought one recently, and have been impressed with the speed of this drive.  It is not as fast as SAS drive, but for $149 it was rather cheap for me. 

The future will be Heat Assisted Magnetic Recording.   Here is a recent presentation of the Technology.  http://www.forbes.com/sites/tomcoughlin/2012/08/22/digital-storage-our-only-hope/
Seagate is based on the above, but I seen a simiar technology in other brands.   
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rjm

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Re: what's up with 4TB drives?
« Reply #15 on: August 25, 2012, 07:25:45 pm »

Anyway, the question regarding the 4TB drives.  Well, it is too many platters on that size hard drive.  I think it is better to stick with 3TB Seagate SATA III hard drive that is based 3 (1TB platters) less chance for failure.  I bought one recently, and have been impressed with the speed of this drive.  It is not as fast as SAS drive, but for $149 it was rather cheap for me. 

I thought 3TB Seagate might be better than WD due to fewer platters but then I saw WD has 2 year warranty and Seagate has 1 year warranty.

Do you think Seagate is more reliable despite the lower warranty?

I do not care about performance. I care about reliability, lifetime, and quiet.

I am buying 6 x 3TB drives so this is an important issue for me. Thanks for your help.

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Sparks67

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Re: what's up with 4TB drives?
« Reply #16 on: August 25, 2012, 08:05:06 pm »

I quit using Western Digital hard drives long ago. I had 2 green Western Digital drives last 6 months.  2 Blacks last a few years.   Samsung F4 lasted about 5 months.  I have several Seagate drives that are going longer than 5 years. I have several 750 Gb Seagate Drives.  I think that I bought these in 2007.   I got a great deal a year ago on the Hitachi drives (16) 2TB, but so far they have been reliable. I had a few that DOA, but so far no issues with them.  This was before Hitachi was bought out by WD.

I can't really speak about the reliably of the new Seagate, because I got it a few weeks ago.  Primary use of the 3TB Seagate was to backup my media, so I could build a new array with a different server case. 
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rjm

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Re: what's up with 4TB drives?
« Reply #17 on: August 30, 2012, 05:14:36 pm »

So I picked up the components for my new system today including 5 x 3TB drives. I asked the kid behind the counter what's up with 4TB drives. He said the main reason they are slow to appear on the market is that many motherboards do not support drives larger than 3TB. I did not argue with him but this sounds like BS.

Is there any truth to what he says?
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KingSparta

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Re: what's up with 4TB drives?
« Reply #18 on: August 30, 2012, 05:44:10 pm »

For us in Oz 4TB drives are not generally available. 

do you live near Judy Garland?
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KingSparta

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Re: what's up with 4TB drives?
« Reply #19 on: August 30, 2012, 05:47:01 pm »

So I picked up the components for my new system today including 5 x 3TB drives. I asked the kid behind the counter what's up with 4TB drives. He said the main reason they are slow to appear on the market is that many motherboards do not support drives larger than 3TB. I did not argue with him but this sounds like BS.

Is there any truth to what he says?

well maybe, I know Tivo only recognizes up to 2TB drives, not sure if that is a software limitation, OS, or firmware.
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MrC

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Re: what's up with 4TB drives?
« Reply #20 on: August 30, 2012, 06:32:26 pm »

So I picked up the components for my new system today including 5 x 3TB drives. I asked the kid behind the counter what's up with 4TB drives. He said the main reason they are slow to appear on the market is that many motherboards do not support drives larger than 3TB. I did not argue with him but this sounds like BS.

Is there any truth to what he says?

They are probably slow to appear in big box stores as demand is low, price is high.

There are a number of limitations, but nothing you need to worry about with your new rig.

32-bit MBR or old BIOS' restricts partitions to just under 2.2 Gb.  With GPT, this is not an issue.

Here's some good reading for you:
http://news.cnet.com/8301-17938_105-20019961-1.html
http://www.dewassoc.com/kbase/hard_drives/hard_drive_size_barriers.htm
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rjm

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Re: what's up with 4TB drives?
« Reply #21 on: September 03, 2012, 02:19:51 am »

Well I now understand at least part of the reason that big drives are not being pushed. Windows XP 32 bit does not support GPT. This was a real pain in my case because I am redeploying my old XP desktop as a server and I do not want to put any more money into that system to upgrade it.

I found a work around from Asus called Drive Unlocker that makes all of the data on a 3TB drive visible to XP. Unfortunately the 3TB is partitioned into two partitions of fixed size (2048GB + 746GB). These sizes were not ideal for my design and I spent a lot of time redesigning my system into a compromise to accommodate this.





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jmone

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Re: what's up with 4TB drives?
« Reply #22 on: September 03, 2012, 03:32:31 am »

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rjm

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Re: what's up with 4TB drives?
« Reply #23 on: September 03, 2012, 10:20:21 am »

FYI , 4TB back on special at B&H http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/search?Ntt=4tb+hitachi&N=0&InitialSearch=yes&sts=ma&Top+Nav-Search=
Not a great price at $65 per TB. I Paid $140 for 3TB or $46 per TB.
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Sparrow

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Re: what's up with 4TB drives?
« Reply #24 on: September 04, 2012, 11:32:23 am »

Greetings from the UK. Although $1 is worth about £0.60, we are used to being charged for technology products at a rate of $1 = £1!
Anyway, I thought you might be interested to know that the 4TB Hitachi 7200 Deskstar are available here for about £290. I've also seen advertised Western Digital 4TB SATA drives at about £350 each.
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