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Author Topic: Theater View Captions -- Let's Make a Deal  (Read 13564 times)

Matt

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Theater View Captions -- Let's Make a Deal
« on: October 26, 2012, 01:23:49 pm »

If I promise to make the Theater View caption system lots better, will you promise not to get angry when we have to reset your Theater View File Info templates to do it?
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MrC

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Re: Theater View Captions -- Let's Make a Deal
« Reply #1 on: October 26, 2012, 01:52:38 pm »

Reset away.
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glynor

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Re: Theater View Captions -- Let's Make a Deal
« Reply #2 on: October 26, 2012, 01:55:59 pm »

I'm on board.

Thanks for warning us though.
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mojave

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Re: Theater View Captions -- Let's Make a Deal
« Reply #3 on: October 26, 2012, 02:30:38 pm »

Go for it.
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kensn

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Re: Theater View Captions -- Let's Make a Deal
« Reply #4 on: October 26, 2012, 02:46:16 pm »

I'm all for this..

Just do it!!

ken
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jmone

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Re: Theater View Captions -- Let's Make a Deal
« Reply #5 on: October 26, 2012, 03:02:17 pm »

What - this mob get all angry?  Change away.
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glynor

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Re: Theater View Captions -- Let's Make a Deal
« Reply #6 on: October 26, 2012, 03:37:50 pm »

What - this mob get all angry?  Change away.

Wait.  What was I thinking.  You're right.



Ima lightin' mah torches!!

/s  ;) ;D
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rick.ca

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Re: Theater View Captions -- Let's Make a Deal
« Reply #7 on: October 26, 2012, 05:07:48 pm »

It's okay if templates copied to a file can pasted back into the new version. But if that were possible, why would it not be done programmatically? Surely you wouldn't consider making thousands of users redo their templates just to save you a little time. If it's not possible, why is everyone readily agreeing to this? Obviously it doesn't matter if you're using the defaults or the defaults with only minor modifications. Otherwise, this will be a huge PITA. My templates, cut & paste to file, total 60 KB on over 2000 lines. I don't mind cutting & pasting those back after they're reset. But if I can't do that, it going to take me hours to recreate them.

Yes, I'm the one with the big pitchfork. Be afraid. ;)
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fitbrit

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Re: Theater View Captions -- Let's Make a Deal
« Reply #8 on: October 26, 2012, 05:32:23 pm »

Yes, I'm the one with the big pitchfork. Be afraid. ;)

Cool. We have the same hairstyle.
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InflatableMouse

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Re: Theater View Captions -- Let's Make a Deal
« Reply #9 on: October 26, 2012, 05:36:54 pm »

Yes, I'm the one with the big pitchfork. Be afraid. ;)

Your leading the pack now eh? ;)
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rick.ca

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Re: Theater View Captions -- Let's Make a Deal
« Reply #10 on: October 26, 2012, 06:05:50 pm »

Quote
Your leading the pack now eh?

It could be me or fitbrit. We lead by the reflection of torchlight off our big heads. 8)
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rick.ca

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Re: Theater View Captions -- Let's Make a Deal
« Reply #11 on: October 26, 2012, 06:18:07 pm »

I don't mind cutting & pasting those back after they're reset. But if I can't do that, it going to take me hours to recreate them.

So, can I restore the old template versions from the clipboard or not? ?
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MrC

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Re: Theater View Captions -- Let's Make a Deal
« Reply #12 on: October 26, 2012, 06:25:22 pm »

It looks like the Captions are stored in the file:

   %appdata%\J River\Media Center 18\Library\theater view file info templates.xml

You should be able to copy your old ones to a file, and then merge those into this file (with MC not running).
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rick.ca

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Re: Theater View Captions -- Let's Make a Deal
« Reply #13 on: October 26, 2012, 08:25:41 pm »

Quote
It looks like the Captions are stored in the file:

Good grief. All I had to do was backup the build 63 file, update the version number (from 1.6 to 1.7), then replace the build 64 default with that. I then simply copied my old caption (which, fortunately, I had saved) to the Regular Caption of each template. That puts me back to exactly where I was, only forgoing the new default captions—which are useless to me anyway. I can now update/simplify the individual caption settings at my leisure.

This is exactly what the installation routine should be doing when updating an existing library. It doesn't make sense to blow away all the user's caption and file info panels for such a simple change. The default captions can be posted for those who may want to use them instead of their existing captions. A separate topic could be created for each default template (for which a default caption other than '[Name]' has been provided) for users to contribute their suggestions. Those discussions could be used to decide what defaults would best suit new users and the stock views.
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jmone

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Re: Theater View Captions -- Let's Make a Deal
« Reply #14 on: October 27, 2012, 12:37:44 am »

I had a look at the Captions for "TV Show" and I think the list is too busy.  It currently has "Series: Name: Date" that can quickly fill up the list and in many cases I have "Date" missing so it looks uneven.  I'd suggest either just "Name" as it was or "Season Episode - Name".
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kensn

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Re: Theater View Captions -- Let's Make a Deal
« Reply #15 on: October 27, 2012, 12:40:29 am »

I had a look at the Captions for "TV Show" and I think the list is too busy.  It currently has "Series: Name: Date" that can quickly fill up the list and in many cases I have "Date" missing so it looks uneven.  I'd suggest either just "Name" as it was or "Season Episode - Name".

Yes .. If the view is drilled down form Series - Season it seems that the series name is redundant in that I already selected the series.
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kensn

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Re: Theater View Captions -- Let's Make a Deal
« Reply #16 on: October 27, 2012, 12:44:04 am »

I think I forgot to mention how wonderful I think it is that you opened this up for customization.... ;D
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Hendrik

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Re: Theater View Captions -- Let's Make a Deal
« Reply #17 on: October 27, 2012, 01:01:46 am »

Thanks for adding this.
Not only that it greatly cut down my long previous caption string with a lot of ifs in it, it also syncs from the server to the clients now :)
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vagskal

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Re: Theater View Captions -- Let's Make a Deal
« Reply #18 on: October 27, 2012, 05:47:02 am »

Is there a manual?

I do not get it. The file caption option is gone and my custom fields and expressions in the customize file info panel are gone. But what is new and where is it?
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darichman

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Re: Theater View Captions -- Let's Make a Deal
« Reply #19 on: October 27, 2012, 06:01:42 am »

Go for it :)
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kensn

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Re: Theater View Captions -- Let's Make a Deal
« Reply #20 on: October 27, 2012, 09:23:37 am »

Is there a manual?

I do not get it. The file caption option is gone and my custom fields and expressions in the customize file info panel are gone. But what is new and where is it?

Go into the "Customize file info panel" and Then click Manage - edit template.

Ken
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Matt

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Re: Theater View Captions -- Let's Make a Deal
« Reply #21 on: October 27, 2012, 09:40:12 am »

I had a look at the Captions for "TV Show" and I think the list is too busy.  It currently has "Series: Name: Date" that can quickly fill up the list and in many cases I have "Date" missing so it looks uneven.  I'd suggest either just "Name" as it was or "Season Episode - Name".

The caption for TV shows is a tricky one.

If you drilled into 'Big Bang Theory', it is a bit unnecessary to show the series name for each file.

But there are also lists like 'Recent' where lots of series are mixed together.  In those views, showing the series is really important.

We also toyed with using S4E1, for example, at the front of the caption (you can get this with the new expression TVInfo(SeasonEpisode)), but it looked really noisy.

In your screenshot, all the times are 12:00am.  If the time is not valid, we shouldn't show it.  What's in the 'Date' field in Standard view for those files?
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vagskal

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Re: Theater View Captions -- Let's Make a Deal
« Reply #22 on: October 27, 2012, 09:48:56 am »

Go into the "Customize file info panel" and Then click Manage - edit template.

Ken

Aha, there it was. Thanks!
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glynor

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Re: Theater View Captions -- Let's Make a Deal
« Reply #23 on: October 27, 2012, 10:40:33 am »

The caption for TV shows is a tricky one.

If you drilled into 'Big Bang Theory', it is a bit unnecessary to show the series name for each file.

But there are also lists like 'Recent' where lots of series are mixed together.  In those views, showing the series is really important.

I'd mentioned once before that having a IsListMixed() expression would be really handy.  It would work like this:

IsListMixed(Field to Check, Result if True, Result if False)

Much like the current If() statement, but the output would change depending on if the currently visible view was uniform or mixed for that particular field.  You could easily then do:

IsListMixed([Series],,[Series] - )IsListMixed([Season],[Episode] - ,[Season]e[Episode] - )
(I didn't bother to escape the spaces, but you would have to.)

And get: The Big Bang Theory - 4e17 - Episode Title

For "newly recorded/imported" views where different types are mixed, and just:

17 - Episode Title

Where you're viewing a "folder" of just BBT season 4 episodes.  And so on and so forth.  I don't know if this would be too difficult to implement, but now seems like the time.
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Matt

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Re: Theater View Captions -- Let's Make a Deal
« Reply #24 on: October 27, 2012, 12:49:52 pm »

I'd mentioned once before that having a IsListMixed() expression would be really handy.

The expression engine doesn't have the set of files as part of its context.  In other words, it works a file at a time.

However, the caller (the Theater View list) could set some variables like:
[AllSameSeries], [AllSameSeason], etc.

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jmone

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Re: Theater View Captions -- Let's Make a Deal
« Reply #25 on: October 27, 2012, 03:05:36 pm »

Re: "Date" - and sorry I forgot to mention that it is showing the time in TheaterView and also not honoring the Country Format for Dates.... though in StdView, where out of my TV Show files:
- 40% have no date at all
- 55% have a date in "(D)D/MM/YYYY" (eg big bang above)
- 5% have a date only in "YYYY"

Thanks
Nathan
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gvanbrunt

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Re: Theater View Captions -- Let's Make a Deal
« Reply #26 on: October 27, 2012, 03:27:57 pm »

One other issue is for movies. When you Carnac grabs data it fills in the Critic Rating field, but not the RatingStars field. This is another part of what leads to ugly long caption expressions since it is number out of 10. It would be nice if on import it does this automatically.
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Matt

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Re: Theater View Captions -- Let's Make a Deal
« Reply #27 on: October 27, 2012, 03:36:13 pm »

One other issue is for movies. When you Carnac grabs data it fills in the Critic Rating field, but not the RatingStars field. This is another part of what leads to ugly long caption expressions since it is number out of 10. It would be nice if on import it does this automatically.

I'm not sure what you mean.

Critic rating is something like the Rotten Tomatoes numbers.

User rating is when you manually give something a number of stars (ie. your rating).
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jmone

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Re: Theater View Captions -- Let's Make a Deal
« Reply #28 on: October 27, 2012, 03:42:04 pm »

I did a "Reset!..." to have a look at the default views and how a new users would see it.  Overall it looks pretty good but here are some suggestions:

Media Sub Types: As an example,
- Under Video, there only sub types to get a corresponding view is Movies, TV Shows, and Home Videos.   The rest are bundled under "Other" but there is not even a "Media Sub Type" on the second roller, the closest being "Genre".  
- In particular I add a "Music Video" that is configured just like it's Audio Equivalent using (Album Artist (auto)

View Tweaks:  Couple of suggested small tweaks,
- Home Videos:  Add a Reverse Date (sort of like Recent but off the date field as the creation of my files are not necessarily in the same order they were recorded)
- Naming Consistently: Most View Names = the Field Name / values but some are a bit different, eg Media Sub Type "TV Show" is inconsistently called just "Shows" in Theater View.
- I move (or remove) the Hulu, Netflick, Youtube from the first level and put them under "Connected Media" as with StdView
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jmone

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Re: Theater View Captions -- Let's Make a Deal
« Reply #29 on: October 27, 2012, 03:46:12 pm »

Is there anyway, that (once the T'View Views are setup) that you can move/copy them to also be used in DLNA and S'View?
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gvanbrunt

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Re: Theater View Captions -- Let's Make a Deal
« Reply #30 on: October 27, 2012, 03:51:43 pm »

I'm not sure what you mean.

Critic rating is something like the Rotten Tomatoes numbers.

User rating is when you manually give something a number of stars (ie. your rating).

If you look in Mr. Haugen's thread about captions, there were a great many users using CriticRating to display "number of stars" for a movie. Many users want to use this in their caption and it requires long expressions to do so. I guess we could set up an auto import rule for filling it, or edit the template to do so but I'm sure many users from other software are looking for that to be automatic or at least very simple to achieve out of the box. At the very least the template for movie should use Criticrating  and not StarRating by default if you want novices to be happy.
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glynor

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Re: Theater View Captions -- Let's Make a Deal
« Reply #31 on: October 27, 2012, 04:34:31 pm »

Is there anyway, that (once the T'View Views are setup) that you can move/copy them to also be used in DLNA and S'View?

Make Standard Views that match and hide them away in an Advanced top level group.

Then you can import them everywhere.
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jmone

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Re: Theater View Captions -- Let's Make a Deal
« Reply #32 on: October 27, 2012, 04:50:25 pm »

Make Standard Views that match and hide them away in an Advanced top level group.

Then you can import them everywhere.

Thanks - is there anyway to copy stuff "back" to Std View?
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jmone

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Re: Theater View Captions -- Let's Make a Deal
« Reply #33 on: October 27, 2012, 05:13:59 pm »

...actually this brings back memories of the "discussion" around having a single area for the creation and maintenance of Views with the ability then select while ones you want to see in Std, Theater or DLNA (instead of three seperate areas with views).
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InflatableMouse

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Re: Theater View Captions -- Let's Make a Deal
« Reply #34 on: October 27, 2012, 05:28:12 pm »

I'm prolly being thick, I don't get it.

I've copied the template TV Show to TV Show (Customized). I edit it but no matter where I place the following line (regular or Expanded, or under selected field Name/Value):

If(IsEqual([Media Sub Type], TV Show), If(IsEqual([Last Played], never played), [Episode] - [Name], <font color="888888">[Episode] - [Name]<//font>), [Name])

It's not working. It keeps showing Series name: Episode, date, time.

How do I make this work?  ?
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rick.ca

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Re: Theater View Captions -- Let's Make a Deal
« Reply #35 on: October 27, 2012, 05:51:07 pm »

Quote
How do I make this work?

The templates are evaluated in order. Place your customized template before the default one.
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glynor

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Re: Theater View Captions -- Let's Make a Deal
« Reply #36 on: October 27, 2012, 07:36:01 pm »

Thanks - is there anyway to copy stuff "back" to Std View?

You can use the Import/Export to copy paste the Files to Display rules (which are the hardest part).

You have to recreate the categories, but that's usually less big of a deal.
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kensn

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Re: Theater View Captions -- Let's Make a Deal
« Reply #37 on: October 28, 2012, 11:42:27 pm »

How about throwing in a small DD and DTS icon to use !!
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MrHaugen

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Re: Theater View Captions -- Let's Make a Deal
« Reply #38 on: October 29, 2012, 03:30:04 am »

I'm very glad that you look into this. Unfortunately this will be almost as useless for the users as the old [Name] rule.
I really hope you are not done with this yet, and can except some input. I'll explain why this does not work when I get home.

I've not had time to look much into it yet, but the system for separation of the different media types' captions seems like a good idea.
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jmone

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Re: Theater View Captions -- Let's Make a Deal
« Reply #39 on: October 29, 2012, 05:50:35 pm »

V65 Feedback.

I'm happy with the overall changes for default "Shows", couple of points (see Pic):
- The watched "Tick" current sits between the "Name" and the "Date" and it gets lost so, it may be better placed to the left or right of the icon (in a dedicated col so you can cast your eye down the list) or at the very end after the "Date"
- The layout in list mode may need some tweaks (eg to my eyes the thumbnail looks oddly small and the spacing between the col does not seem quit right)
- There is some issues in sorting as it seems to be driven by "DATE", I'd recommend it is Season --> Episode --> then Date.
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Matt

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Re: Theater View Captions -- Let's Make a Deal
« Reply #40 on: October 29, 2012, 06:00:23 pm »

I'm not sold on the watch marks for movies (they're nice for TV).  They're sort of a scatter shot in my library.  I think the problem is that sometimes I'll start a movie and seek around a little but not actually watch it, and the program doesn't track how long I've actually watched.  I'm also not sure if I'm going to forget what movies I've seen.  Thoughts?

Also, the EPG loading isn't putting anything in the season / episode.  Since the old numbers from mc2xml never matched the "standard" numbers like S3E4, maybe this is just as well.

Date formatting for movies is different than for TV.  I prefer the TV format (ie. Oct 29 2011).
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Matt

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Re: Theater View Captions -- Let's Make a Deal
« Reply #41 on: October 29, 2012, 06:03:12 pm »

- The watched "Tick" current sits between the "Name" and the "Date" and it gets lost so, it may be better placed to the left or right of the icon (in a dedicated col so you can cast your eye down the list) or at the very end after the "Date"

We tried them on the left of the name, but they were too strong -- especially in a thumbnail view.


Quote
- There is some issues in sorting as it seems to be driven by "DATE", I'd recommend it is Season --> Episode --> then Date.

From what I can tell, the Theater View > Video > Shows > Season view uses default sorting.  Maybe we should tweak how default sorting works, so it has Season and Episode at the front of the sort stack (but sorts like it always has if those are empty)?
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MrHaugen

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Re: Theater View Captions -- Let's Make a Deal
« Reply #42 on: October 29, 2012, 06:03:32 pm »

Ok. Got some time now. I've not had the time to explore the underlying system much here, but it looks pretty much as usual except that we now have the ability to set the main caption and the advanced/selection caption based on the file info panel templates. This is good. The TV Show captions are very much improved on on the 65 build compared to 64. Nice! I'd still like to add a few suggestions though.

It's to late on the night for me to figure out how this Watched Expression and Is mixed list or [AllSameSeries] and [AllSameSeason] works. But generally, I think there needs to be something more than this to accommodate for similar situations. For instance, we need to figure out if playlists are of the same artist, or if there is lots of different artists. In cases where there are a mix, the Artist name should be added.
There's also the question of calculating data for several items in a list. For instance counting number of items in seasons or in TV shows. A number watched/not watched counter. This would be especially useful the day we get the ability to show the small file info pane on categories above the file level :) Also, does the Watch expression take into account things like bookmark and number plays? I just think it's very little trustworthy to just base this on number plays.

I ran the 64 build this weekend, and showed it to 8 of my friends during a two day stay. They all asked me to get back my previous caption system :) So, I think I'm at least on to something right. I think the new build would make them less negative though.

Over to some simple suggestions.

Music
There's nothing but [name] tag on these captions today. This kind of works for lists of a single artist and single album. People still expect to see ratings on these tracks though. And it takes a heck of a long time browsing through them all to find the high rated tracks. Hence it needs to be in the caption line one, not line two when you've selected the track.

So, I would suggest the following:
- Mixed lists of music or other media types/sub types: [Name] by [Artist] [Rating Stars expression?]
- Homogeneous list of music [Name] [Rating Stars Expression?]

A subtle tone on the "by" to differentiate between the Name and Artist makes it easy to separate the two. The rating is needed because people often look for the good tracks of for instance an album. Having rating only as part of the second caption line or at the file info panel makes it very time consuming to pick out the favorite songs.

Movies
I would suggest the following:
- [Name] [Rating Stars expression based on theMovieDB ratings]

Most people have a single title for most movies. They usually know what they have. But people often want to know what rating the movie have gotten. So, rating should be added here. Taken from MC's default theMovieDB ratings. Half star rating should be used. 1-5 is just way to little when we're dealing with 10 ratings from the theMovieDB, WITH decimals. Plenty of people want to look at their best movies first, and rating is one of the primary things they look for. that's why this have to be added on the primary caption for Movies.
Also move the Seen icon to the left of the caption, so it's easily spotted.

TV shows
I would suggest that a "E" is placed in front of Episodes and "S" in front of seasons. People are just so incredibly used to this from all internet sources. Especially lists with multiple seasons are not good imo. 5.15 is just so wrong to my eyes.I'm starting to wonder if it's a date or something. Adding S in front of the Season and an E instead of the . would make if much faster to read, and only add one character.

When you have the Season and Episode in place, I do not think that the actual dates are needed as the primary caption. It's just noise imo. People know the order and approximately release time from the episode numbering, and they can easily get the full date from the file info panel. I would drop ratings on episodes. Just as you have. It's just considered as noise for most people. As people usually like a show, or not, and does not skip an episode even if it's rated badly. But this is actually about the only place I would drop it.

Trailers
Trailers need the same caption as Movies.

Music Videos
Those need the same rules as music

Seasons
I would suggest that you add a special caption rule for seasons, so that Season is placed in front of the number for the Season category caption and the roller text. It's so much easier to read and interpret.


Overall very good changes from build 63 to 65. I hope you keep this going some more builds until we nail this caption formula that most people expect to find in such a powerful app.
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jmone

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Re: Theater View Captions -- Let's Make a Deal
« Reply #43 on: October 29, 2012, 06:08:12 pm »

Date formatting for movies is different than for TV.  I prefer the TV format (ie. Oct 29 2011).

Can the format follow the windows date format setting (most of the world does not use MMM DD YYYY)?
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jmone

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Re: Theater View Captions -- Let's Make a Deal
« Reply #44 on: October 29, 2012, 06:09:45 pm »

I'm not sold on the watch marks for movies (they're nice for TV).  They're sort of a scatter shot in my library.  I think the problem is that sometimes I'll start a movie and seek around a little but not actually watch it, and the program doesn't track how long I've actually watched.  I'm also not sure if I'm going to forget what movies I've seen.  Thoughts?

Also, the EPG loading isn't putting anything in the season / episode.  Since the old numbers from mc2xml never matched the "standard" numbers like S3E4, maybe this is just as well.

I don't mind the Watch Marks but would have them consistent regardless of video type.

I'm not even sure if there is enough consistency around the world to pull Seas/Eps data from recordings, unless you try to match Titles?  Dates?
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Matt

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Re: Theater View Captions -- Let's Make a Deal
« Reply #45 on: October 29, 2012, 06:09:53 pm »

When you have the Season and Episode in place, I do not think that the actual dates are needed as the primary caption. It's just noise imo.

I think if you download, you have season and episode, and so dates are not important.

If you record, dates are important.

Sometimes if you record you still have season and episode, but they're not meaningful.

So I don't know what rule to use to decide if date should be shown.  Suggestions welcome.
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jmone

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Re: Theater View Captions -- Let's Make a Deal
« Reply #46 on: October 29, 2012, 06:11:01 pm »

We tried them on the left of the name, but they were too strong -- especially in a thumbnail view.

How did it look at the very end (eg some of mine don't have dates and the tick is at the end anyway)


Quote
From what I can tell, the Theater View > Video > Shows > Season view uses default sorting.  Maybe we should tweak how default sorting works, so it has Season and Episode at the front of the sort stack (but sorts like it always has if those are empty)?

Sounds good
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MrHaugen

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Re: Theater View Captions -- Let's Make a Deal
« Reply #47 on: October 29, 2012, 06:11:29 pm »

I'm not sold on the watch marks for movies (they're nice for TV).  They're sort of a scatter shot in my library.  I think the problem is that sometimes I'll start a movie and seek around a little but not actually watch it, and the program doesn't track how long I've actually watched.  I'm also not sure if I'm going to forget what movies I've seen.  Thoughts?

I think this is a must for all video, except the smaller ones. Especially when you don't have a default "Not Watched" view under Movies (or anywhere else list time I checked). The Not watched Icon have to have more rules than the Number Plays. I've used this for weeks now, and it works very well.
Code: [Select]
If(!isempty([Number Plays]), if(Math(!formatnumber([Bookmark]) | above(formatnumber([Bookmark]) / [Duration,0], 900)), <font color="C3FFB3">v <//font><font color="888888">S[Season]EPadNumber([Episode], 2) [Name] <font color=" C3FFB3"> [Critic Rating Stars]<//font>
It sets the Watched marker if Number plays is over 0, and there is no bookmarks. For library editing without watching the item. If the bookmark is set, it have to be above 90% of the movie, and the Number plays have to be above 0. This makes it easy to remove number plays to remove the watched mark, even though you have a bookmark.

Can the format follow the windows date format setting (most of the world does not use MMM DD YYYY)?

That sounds good. In Norway and many places in Europe we're more used to DD MMM YYYY.
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Matt

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Re: Theater View Captions -- Let's Make a Deal
« Reply #48 on: October 29, 2012, 06:13:18 pm »

Can the format follow the windows date format setting (most of the world does not use MMM DD YYYY)?

We're building a custom short date for style reasons.

Do you use "16 Nov 2011" instead of "Nov 16 2011"?

Or do you just need a little cheat sheet that lists what Oct, Nov, Dec, etc. stand for :P
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jmone

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Re: Theater View Captions -- Let's Make a Deal
« Reply #49 on: October 29, 2012, 06:14:01 pm »

I'd not have "Date" as part of the Tile for TV EPS (but had it in the info box instead).  I also like the SXXEXX instead of s.ee format.
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