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[gateley]

* How does the new buy process work?

PLEASE NOTE: This thread only applies to Media Jukebox 8.0.265 or above (Check the download page at http://www.musicex.com/mediajukebox/download.html to make sure you have the latest version -- see Help/About in MJ for version).  For info on 7.2, please see this link: http://www.musicex.com/mediajukebox/buy_faq.html

When you choose "Buy Media Jukebox" from with Media Jukebox, your browser
opens to a purchase page. Enter your information, and click
ONCE on the "Purchase button". If all is ok, then you will
see a page with a serial number and a link. Save the serial
number someplace secure. Click on the link, and the license
will be installed. You will receive an email receipt.

* Can I save the license instead of installing it directly?

Yes, just right click on the link and choose "save as" instead
of clicking on it. Then double clicking on the file will install
the license.

* I don't use Internet Explorer and clicking on the link doesn't
work.

Save the license as a file and double click it (see the previous
question).

* I was charged multiple times.

Don't click the "purchase" button more than once.

* My browser crashed before the purchase was complete, or before
the license downloaded.

Use the serial number from the email receipt, go to the restore
page and restore your license.

* I lost my license.

Use the serial number from the email receipt (or the web page
confirming purchase), go to the restore page, and restore your
license.

* I lost my license and my serial number.

Go to the restore web page, enter the email address your receipt
was sent to, and it will mail you the serial number.

* I lost my license and my serial number, and I no longer have
the same email address I used to purchase.

Go to the restore web page, enter the password you chose at purchase
time, the email address your receipt was sent to, and a destination
email address, and the serial number will be sent to the destination
address.

* Where is the restore page?

https://rover.jriver.com/cgi-bin/restore.cgi

* I still can't get there.

Make sure it is https and not http.

* I bought my license a month ago, I tried to reinstall it yesterday
and it didn't work.

Each license can be installed only for a short period of time (usually
2 weeks). Visit the restore page and get a new license.

* I tried to restore several times, and the last time it failed.

You are limited to a certain number of restores per time period.
This is usually 5 restores per year.

* How secure is this whole mess?

All communication with the the web server is via SSL.
Only you and the web server can read this (well, as far
as anyone knows). The license contains personal details
about the transaction, such as your name, address, and
email. These personal details are encypted, but this will not deter
a serious hacker so don't share your license
with others).

[JasonJoel]

>* I bought my license a month ago, I tried to reinstall it yesterday
>and it didn't work.

>Each license can be installed only for a short period of time (usually
>2 weeks). Visit the restore page and get a new license.

>* I tried to restore several times, and the last time it failed.

>You are limited to a certain number of restores per time period.
>This is usually 5 restores per year.

I have a serious problem with this. I will not be using software that can/will lock me out after I legally paid for it.

In any case, how long are the existing rrg files going to work for? At least through v8.X I hope. Gives me some time before I have to switch programs at least.

Thanks,
Jason Bottjen

[Gatobrit]

gateley - I have v.8 license I purchased at the early days of the v.8 beta. How does all this effect me? I'm running 247 and I tried to backup my license, saw the regular warning, clicked on OK and then MJ just died - no error message etc.

[JimH]

The version 8 rrg license will work with 8.0.

[Birdie]

Still not clear to me/for me.See Unable to register...thread below, and JimH's answer to me. Do I have to wait for further information with my "invalid license" ? If so I will be patient. I wanna be sure. I don't like to take the risk of another unsuccesfull restore, now that I have 4 restores left for this year.Yesterday I used at least 1 without success.
What worries me further : What happens if a future beta version is buggy and you want to go back to an earlier version you saved-see 8.0.246 problems ? Will cost you another or even more restores this year ?!
However I would like to make a positive remark too.I am in this forum only a week and I am impressed with the support and the response, also that from JRiver itself !
Before MJ I used MusicMatch Jukebox but gave it up because the plugin for my Rio 500 did not work good.What a difference ! With the Support for MMJB it took 3 weeks of emailing before I got a final answer that it would be   sorted out and in time maybe I would get more information.I still have to get it !

[KingSparta]

>> I will not be using software that can/will lock me out after I legally paid for it.
I don't see how it is locking you out it the program is functioning.

It does keep users from posting the registration file on the net to pirate the software.

my 2 cents, 40% of it belonging to the IRS

[KingSparta]

>> I don't like to take the risk of another unsuccesfull restore, now that I have 4 restores left for this year.
maybe this should be reset now or when all the bugs are fixed?

[Doof]

JasonJoel> It won't lock you out after you've legally paid for it. You just have to request a restored license from the site. They give you 5 restores. That's one every 2.5 months. How often do you forsee the need to restore your license?

Let's see... you buy it. You install it. You're good. If something breaks within 2 weeks, you restore from the license you just got. If something breaks after the 2 week period, you go to the site and restore your license. If something breaks again within 2 weeks, or you restore from the web. If this pattern keeps repeating to the point where you've used up your 5 for the year... well then you've got some serious problems with your system and you've got bigger problems to worry about than your media player... like getting a system that doesn't totally break down every 2 months.

I'm crossposting this from the other thread since it's relevant to this post and the other thread was closed...

Sounds like you should invest in Ghost or something if you're resetting your system up once a week. Then you could restore it to a fully registered MJ and not have to worry about your licenses.
(ignore my other post on this in the other thread - I hadn't read this yet in regards to your typical PC usage habits)

[gateley]

Birdie wrote:
>Still not clear to me/for me.See Unable to register...thread below, and JimH's answer to me. Do I have to wait for further information with my "invalid license" ? If so I will be patient. I

Should be fixed in the next build - you will have to restore. Email me with your name (gateley@jriver.com) and I will clear your restore counter after you do it.

KingSparta wrote in respons to someone else:
>> I don't like to take the risk of another unsuccesfull restore, now that I have 4 restores left for this year.
>maybe this should be reset now or when all the bugs are fixed?

It's under consideration. In any case, email me if you think you used up a restore, and I'll reset it during this beta.

j

[KingSparta]

Birdie
I agree, they are willing to help anyone that is willing to be helped and if they know the answer. also there are some good users here that are willing to help.

Why because the Barfly Association of Retired Folks (BARF) cares

[Doof]

Question. Is it possible to take the .mjr file to another PC within that 14 day period and restore it without using up one of the 5?

[Doof]

* I lost my license.

Use the serial number from the email receipt (or the web page
confirming purchase), go to the restore page, and restore your
license.

* I lost my license and my serial number.

Go to the restore web page, enter the email address your receipt
was sent to, and it will mail you the serial number.

* I lost my license and my serial number, and I no longer have
the same email address I used to purchase.

Go to the restore web page, enter the password you chose at purchase
time, the email address your receipt was sent to, and a destination
email address, and the serial number will be sent to the destination
address.

Sounds like you're coddling all of the people who've lost their licenses in the past pretty well. Just one question...

What happens if I lose my license and my serial number, no longer have the same email address and can't remember my password? What then? I want satisfaction damnit!!

[KingSparta]

>> Question. Is it possible to take the .mjr file to another PC within
>> that 14 day period and restore it without using up one of the 5?

doof good question i think the answer is yes

[Doof]

I've got a solution for those of you who reset your PC up more often than this scheme will allow.

Just don't register it. You have a 30 day trial period and if you're going to format your hard drive within 2 weeks anyway, you may as well just save yourself the money.

[JasonJoel]

>I've got a solution for those of you who reset your PC up more often than this scheme will allow.
>Just don't register it. You have a 30 day trial period and if you're going to format your hard drive >within 2 weeks anyway, you may as well just save yourself the money.


Doof - This is the solution I will use, works fine for MY needs. Same thing I was forced to do with other software during the beta tests because of the same issue.

I still don't think it changes the fact that you can get the same copy protection effectiveness by just forcing internet registration without a finite number of re-registers (by watching for 'unusual' registration pattern in a short timeframe).

Jason Bottjen

[Doof]

I agree. Of course the question there is, does JRiver have the resources to do that, especially given that cases such as yours are (as you yourself said) not common.

[JasonJoel]

Doof - I would say yes they have the resources for this. If you can make an online system to register users/pass out fresh keys, then you should be able to make a program to register/look at the statistics and flag it when a code is used more than x times in x amount of time. Then disable that particular code. Thereby you do not inconvenience honest paying customers by default like a fixed install number does.

Since you are mainly looking for gross abuse of a reg key (like what happens when a reg # gets put on a serial # list, newsgroup, or web site), there should be no problem flagging the anomalies.

You end up stopping the 'light' pirates (i.e. ones simply looking for a reg num) without P.O.ing your legitimate customers. The reality is that the 'hardcore' pirates will simply crack the program in the first place, so they should not be the target to begin with.

Jason Bottjen

[JimH]

Jason,
> then you should be able to make a program to register/look at the statistics and flag it when a code is used more than x times in x amount of time

I think we did that.  5 times in 365 days.  You're suggesting 26 times in 365 days.  That isn't reasonable.  I could have supplied my whole dorm with one license.  If computers had existed then...

[JasonJoel]

Jim -
Quite honestly I think 25 times in a year in MORE than reasonable.

Frankly, everyone in the made up dorm scenario that wanted it for free would already have it, because there would be a crack written and available off of the internet. Any 'technically savy' group of people that do not want to pay for software will find ways around it. That is not going to change with this system.

That leaves two groups of people that you can target copy protection at: casual copiers and 'light' pirates.

The light pirates being defined as those that will go as far as use a serial number that does not belong to them if readily available, but will not attempt to go much further (cracks, patches, etc). These people will be dissuaded with your new system, but they would also by a registration watchdog because the serial number they find on the internet would already be disabled because of the abuse detected by the watchdog.

Casual copiers are those who may or may not even realize that sharing the software is 'bad' or 'wrong'. These people WILL be dissuaded with your new system. I argue that this is an extremely small percentage of your revenue loss though. It may be higher on software bundled with 'off the shelf' computer systems, but not so for specialty software such as this.

So in the end, there are other copy protection systems (registration based, non-install number limited) that target (what I see as) the main group you should be trying to (and reasonably can) stop. So why put the burden on the legitimate consumer when you can target the 'bad guys' directly?

So I guess I'll let it go now. I really think it is a poorly reasoned out copy protection scheme, but in the end it is your software and you can do whatever you want with it. Most users won't be affected too much by this, but a group of power users very well may. You obviously don't agree with me, as that is the system you chose to implement. That is fine.

Thank you for considering my input though. I appreciate that. And I still like your software very much, and will continue to use it until the point it becomes too inconvenient to do so.

Jason Bottjen

[Mavrick]

Jason

Just so you don't feel alone I agree with you. I'll just leave it there.

[Birdie]

>Birdie wrote:
>>>Still not clear to me/for me.See Unable to register...thread below, and JimH's answer to me. Do I have to wait for further information with my "invalid license" ? If so I will be patient. I

Should be fixed in the next build - you will have to restore. Email me with your name (gateley@jriver.com) and I will clear your restore counter after you do it

I downloaded the new 8.0.248 version and it works fine until now.
I could restore the license from the mjr file I saved on my harddisk without going to the weblink.I got the message "Registration restored" and "Buy Media Jukebox" and "Restore license" under Help are now greyed out. I assume everything must be o.k. now ?
I'll send you an email like you suggested to clear my restore for the earlier used one.
BTW.maybe a dumb question but I don't see a button for backup license. Is that right ? (I ask this although i had my license backed up earlier on hard disk and floppy as well, but i nevertheless would like to know)

[KingSparta]

>> "Buy Media Jukebox" and "Restore license" under Help are now greyed out
as it should be

>> BTW.maybe a dumb question but I don't see a button for backup license.
must be removed so users do not backup the license file and then pirate it.

[zevele1]

not sure to understand
As i said .not working now,i kill time by trying all the Windows hacks and tweaks
I reformat non stop.Even few times the same day,depending to how i do not understand what i do  when tweacking.
Do you mind that i will be able to restore my license only 5 times?
It will be the case with my 7.2 licence?

Having 2 hard discs-soon 3- do i have to run MJ on C: the one with Windows on it.Or can i put it on Dnly mp3 on this drives?

[JimH]

All 8.0 releases are announced in a thread here with a title something like this.

"Media Jukebox 8.0.248 beta available"

[Birdie]

Like I said above everything works fine for me and I could register without problems with the new build.I am very happy now and like MJ very much.Still I have 2 more question about the restore topic, because in the meantime-so much being said-I don't see the wood for the trees anymore:
1)Can I use the saved license (on        harddisk and/or floppy only one time even during the first 14 days ? or
2)Can I use it unlimited during the first 14 days and have to restore it after that period, when needed ?
Maybe a new short but clear explanation would help.
I read something about Ghost. I use this program and I can recommend it. Saved me a lot of problems in the meantime. Within a short time you make a backup on cdr or cdrw and in still shorter time you put your whole system back when needed.

[gateley]

JasonJoel wrote:

>I still don't think it changes the fact that you can get the same copy protection effectiveness by just forcing internet registration without a finite number of re-registers (by watching for 'unusual' registration pattern in a short timeframe).

By doing this, you are restricted to computers that have an "on-demand" connection to the internet. Not all do.

j

[JasonJoel]

> By doing this, you are restricted to computers that have an "on-demand" connection to the internet. Not all do.

Gately - Even the JRiver's proposed method would require you to get onto the internet to get an updated key. So the system I mentioned is no different. It would install as a time limited demo, until registered on internet (just like the system is going to be now with the 'expiring keys' for reinstall). The connecting to the internet requirements are the same in both cases.

Jason Bottjen

[gateley]

no they are not the same.

j

[Trelane]

I'm confused...

From what I read in the FAQ, it is still possible to save your license/serial number to activate the plus features and use this as many times as you wish; but if you lose this information, you can get it back up to five times per year. If this is how it works, that sounds good to me. But it's hard for me to say, because I've read a bunch of conflicting views on the restoration system.

Mike
Listening to: 'Cyberface' from 'Demolition' by 'Judas Priest' on Media Jukebox

[JimH]

The FAQ is about 7.2.  This thread is about 8.0.

[Trelane]

Can I save the license instead of installing it directly?

Yes, just right click on the link and choose "save as" instead
of clicking on it. Then double clicking on the file will install
the license.

I was referring to that... I'm guessing the new license files works much the same way the package installer system does in that it'll just automate the restoration process (using up your number of restores each time you use it).

Mike

[KingSparta]

i do have a question about rrg files, since i got a message from gateley the other day (i am sure all rrg file users did).

the question is should i just hold onto the code was sent to me and restore later if i need to or do i need to use that code now?

[JimH]

It should be automatic.  The "save as" refers to the time while you are still on the web page.

We think this licensing is more of an Alfred E Neuman/What Me Worry? solution than the old system.

No problems yet?  Don't ask.

[JimH]

King,
Do it now.  You will then have converted to the new system.  We're trying to move all old v8 licenses to this system.  v7 licenses are not affected.

Jim

[nila]

I'm afraid I do fully agree with JasonJoel.
I think this registration process is ridiculas.
His idea of unlimited re-registrations via the internet I think is perfectly suitable and fully fair with an abuse check function built in.
I know you can do this because it's something I could do myself and you are all far better programmers than me.

Up until now I have loved every aspect of this software but I have to say this is a HUGE put off to me.
I do do several formats and reinstalls per year to keep my system running smoothly and even when I keep the same main OS on my machine I'll often install several other OS's with a dual boot. Each one of these I will want to install it to. Getting through 5 a year is NOT hard at all for most power users and to be honest power users are the main kind that are going to want the sheer power that your program has.

A light user will be more than happy with whatever jukebox program is bundled with their computer and probably wont even be able to manage to use that fully.

25 a year is more reasonable but to be honest I still resent that. More appropriately I think would be to do say 3 a month. Any pirated serial number is obviously going to be used far more than that and if it's not then why are you so worried about this, enough so to build in this ridiculas scheme.
Once I pay for the software I want it to be mine. I've paid for it and I can do whatever the *bleep* I want with it. I'm not giving the money to rent the software which is what this license method basically equates to.
If I want to reinstall the software every single day I should be able to.
You guys saw all the fuss after the XP registration scheme and I'm sure most of you know how fast it got cracked.
This is no different except I'm sure yours is easier to crack than the protection built into XP.

Like Jason pointed out this is only going to hurt legitimate buyers. If you guys know about serial numbers floating around on web pages then you also know about cracks floating around in web pages. Instead of floating illegal serial numbers for this program they will just use a crack.

I LOVE this program and everything about it EXCEPT this.
This to be honest is a very VERY big put off.
I have no problem buying this software to support you guy's excellent work and the amazing support you provide but to be honest this is making me want to rush out and find a crack for it the second I pay for it just so that I can do whatever the hell I want to with it and reinstall it as much as I want.
I'm not saying I'm going to, I'm just saying that's the kind of thing your encouraging people to do.
I'll even film myself paying for it but I'd also like to film myself using a crack just to proove to you that your only hurting legitimate buyers and that anyone wanting to use it illegally will have no problem doing so.

For version 9, because I presume it's too late to change it in version 8, I beg you guys to fully reconsider this whole registration process.
It's a pain in the ass, it's abusive of your power over us and equates to us renting the software rather than purchasing it and is generally not something I expected from a company that is in every other way one of the best and most customer based software companies I have yet to deal with.

You listened to all our other bug reports and fixed them and I'm submitting that this is a bug because anyone wanting an illegal version will be able to find a crack for it online within a couple of weeks of it being released and everyone who thinks you guys deserve our money because you did such a great job is going to be left with a huge pain in the ass.

[KingSparta]

JimH

ok, i don't think the message was clear

it said everything went ok, but

help, about reports registered to = blank

[JasonJoel]

Nila,

At the 'end of the day' the consumer will dictate what they will stand for. While MS had the brute strength to implement this type of registration scheme, I doubt JRiver will. (and even MS had to significantly relax the strictness of their scheme)

There are too many pretty good competing products in the market to bother with a product that places absurd restrictions on use. So many consumers will simply go to those solutions.

Although I still like Media Jukebox best out of the current options out there, I will quit using it when it comes time that I HAVE to use their new registration scheme.

And quite honestly, anyone that asks me about this product (in person or on internet) is going to hear about how good the product is (because it is good, very good), BUT they are also going to get quite an earful about the registration scheme too. A factual earful, but an earful nonetheless. And judging from the reaction I've seen with other smaller companies trying to push this type of registration scheme, it WILL work against JRiver.

So in the end I'm confident they will have to rethink this scheme. If not for version 8, then for a later version. Most consumers, even honest law abiding ones, just won't put up with it in its current form. Now if it ends up a lot less restrictive than it currently is (similar to what MS had to do late in the game with WinXP activation) then it may not be so bad.

As always, just my $0.02.

Jason Bottjen

[JimH]

Jason and Nila,
You're correct that the market will judge us.  We will try to adjust as necessary.  If you decide we've been unfair, we wish you well.

Jim

[JimH]

King,
There may be a loose end on "registered to".

Congratulations on 26.  I only made 18.

Jim

[Mavrick]

Just curious, in a email to me gateley indicated I did not need a seperate license for my laptop or machine at work but does each of these installs count against the 5 restore limit?

[JimH]

Yes, and that is the reason that the limit is 5 per year.  It allows installation on 5 machines each year.  It's a compromise between providing some flexibility for the customer and fair payment for the company.

I'm deleting posts that are repetitive from this thread, so we can keep the discussion on license details.

[JimH]

If you would like to discuss modifying our business model, please use the thread called "The Ethics of Charging for Software".  I've moved several messages to this thread.

I'd like to keep this thread focused on the details of our existing licensing.

Thanks.

[Birdie]

I refer to my above post (13-4-02, 12.22pm): I still did'nt see a definite answer to this.Or did I miss it ? If so I apologize.
Of course the 14 days of my first license are over. But suppose I have to restore from the web, can I save the license and use it more than 1 time, if needed, within the first 14 days, e.g. when my system crashes after the restore but within 14 days ?

[Birdie]

I refer to my above post (13-4-02, 12.22pm): I still did'nt see a definite answer to this.Or did I miss it ? If so I apologize.
Of course the 14 days of my first license are over. But suppose I have to restore from the web, can I save the license and use it more than 1 time, if needed, within the first 14 days, e.g. when my system crashes after the restore but within 14 days ?

[dkistner@treeheart.o]

Okay, I came back after a break from woes of trying to get my MJ8 working. I just got the latest download today, via Media Jukebox's automatic update feature. I don't know what version it is, but I presume it is the latest and greatest.

The little license registration key file thingie I got when I first ordered this (in the very early days of the announcement that we could buy version , which I double-clicked on and ran as instructed, trashed my MJ Help screen and causes repeated program crashes (as I've discussed in this thread and others repeatedly). Today I tried to double-click that registration file again, and it apparently never did its thing because it's now reporting that it is no longer valid and I still am not a "legit" user.

I think this code/file was corrupt from the git-go, and that's why I've had nothing but grief. I paid for this program, and I want it registered and working correctly. Can somebody from JRiver please tell me what I need to do to get another working initial registration code--without shelling out twice, of course. If that code is not working, I don't see how I'll be able to update anything from the web site. Which, by the way, I've already tried to do.

Really, what I wish somebody would do is just go into whatever the database is there and FIX it so I'm set. I guess that's too much to expect, though.

Diane

[JimH]

If you bought a version 8 license, you should have received e-mail this week from gateley @ jriver.com.  It explains what you can do to convert an old license to the new system.

You can also try this page:

https://rover.jriver.com/cgi-bin/restore.cgi

[Scronch]

Thank you for working to improve the licensing system.  I have two questions:

QUESTION 1

Mavrick>gateley indicated I did not need a seperate license for my laptop or machine
at work but does each of these installs count against the 5 restore limit?

JimH>Yes, and that is the reason that the limit is 5 per year. It allows installation
on 5 machines each year.

I'm missing something.  How does the installation system know that a copy of the license file was taken to the other PC, especially if the other PC is not connected to the Internet?

QUESTION 2

gateley>Each license can be installed only for a short period of time (usually 2 weeks).

How do you know the user hasn't simply set the date back?  This is a common practice.

UNDERLYING QUESTION, I GUESS

If the license file is saved and used by double-clicking on it, does the PC have to be connected to the Internet when the license is installed?

Thanks.

Scronch

[Birdie]

Forgive if I am repetitive, but why don't I get an answer to my above question ?If it is a dumb question, or if I missed an earlier answer please tell me.
I assume that a license can only be used once, but from a message from Doof, above,I understood that you can use it as many times as you want, within 14 days.
I just would like to know.

[wylie]

No one is going to go for this and let THE MAN in your house type of thing.
I buy the software.  I do with it what I want, short of re-selling it for profit.
KEEP YOUR F*IN EYES AND HAND OUT OF MY LIFE AND POCKET.
STOP CONNECTING TO MY MACHINE EVERYTIME I TURN IT ON AND WATCHING WHAT I DO.
I ought to charge you rent for using my computer's cyles in a way I do not authorize.
Keep this up, and everyone will mereley do a GOOLE search for>'crack "media jukebox" v8'.

[gateley]

Birdie: if you save a restored license (instead of executing it), then it is good for 14 days.

j