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[Darrel McBane]

I started a post on AVS forum and got most of the information I needed with one exception. Here is my original post and my current dilemma. Which I hope can be handled here with help.

"I put together the following HTPC some time ago. I mainly wanted storage for my CD collection. As well as my BluRay collection of music concerts and a few favorite BluRay movies. I use DVD Fab to rip BluRays to my Hardrives. And JRiver to rip CD and play back my concert, movies and Cd's. I used an optical out to my older Aragon StageOne preamp for playback.

 I recently replaced the Aragon with the Marantz AV8801 preamp processor. Now I would like to use the HDMI out from my HTPC to the Marantz and listen to my concerts and movies in DTS-Master audio on my system. My EVGA Geforce GTX570 does not pass any HD audio with a HDMI.

 My question here is. What current video cards will pass DTS-Master audio and Dolby TrueHD? I like the NVidia cards. But, from what I’ve been able to find out on my own. Current NVidia cards don’t pass HD audio. Is that correct? And if so. What cards are best for my needs? My budget is under $400.00.



 Specifications
 Intel Core i5-2500k Sandy Bridge 3.3GHz CPU
 Asus P8Z68-V Pro LGA 1155 Intel Z68 motherboard
 16 GB (4x4 GB) Corsair Vengeance 240-Pin DDR3 SDRAM 1600
 EVGA Geforce GTX 570 HD w/1280 320-bit GDDR5 PCI Express video card
 Crucial M4 128 GB SSD
 2 Western Digital Caviar Black 1 TB 7200 RPM HD
 1 Western Digital Caviar Black 2 TB 7200 RPM HD
 LITE-ON Model IHBS112-04 Blu-ray Burner Black
 Antec High Current Pro HCP-850 850W Crossfire Certified PSU
 Cooler Master Hyper 212 Plus heatsink and fan
 Silverstone FT02S Silver Aluminum / Steel case
 Windows 7 Ultimate"

Here is a follow up from me after learning about which video card would fit my needs.


"I ordered and installed the EVGA GeForce GTX660 Ti video card. It was a breeze to install in my PC. Seems to be a nice card.

 I ran the audio test in windows for 7.1 speakers. Windows shows the following supported sample rates of: 44.1kHZ, 48.0kHZ, 96.0kHz and 192.0kHz. And the following encoded formats: DTS audio, Dolby Digital Plus, DTS-HD, Dolby TruHD and Dolby Digital. So, I'm good to go. Except now, I need configure JRiver to output something other than PCM over HDMI. I've had the flu bug for the last week so my interest was less than lacking. But, feeling better now I need to finish this little project. I believe I need to set the output on JRiver to bitstream the audio over HDMI. Which I have done. But, my Marantz still shows PCM over the HDMI.

 Does anyone have a simple A,B,C direction on how to setup JRiver audio for outputting DTS-HD and Dolby TrueHD?"



This is were the help ended on AVS. So, I figure I'd take it to the source forum. Any and all help to finish this would be appreciated.

[glynor]

The GTX570 can bitstream DolbyHD and DTS-MA.

In any case, with MC it doesn't matter, so long as the HDMI port will pass 8-channel PCM (which it should).  MC can decode Dolby TrueHD by itself.  For DTS-MA you need an additional decoder dll.  Search the forum for DTS-MA and you'll find instructions.

But, the GTX570 should handle bitstreaming HD audio just fine.

EDIT: Hmmm...  I'm reading now that the 570 specifically does not handle it (though other members of the GTS5x0 series do).  But, like I said above, it doesn't matter if you're using MC.  Just have MC decode it to 8-channel PCM.  The card does support that, and that's uncompressed digital audio, so there is no signal loss.

[glynor]

If you want a similar card, but one that does support it properly, all Nvidia Kepler based cards (finally) support bitstreaming both varieties of HD audio.  So, I'd look at the Nvidia GTX 650s and up.

That mostly just gets you the little light to light up on your receiver, though.

[Darrel McBane]

Thanks I guess. But, your reply had nothing to do with my question.

Here is my actual question that I need help on.

" Does anyone have a simple A,B,C direction on how to setup JRiver audio for outputting DTS-HD and Dolby TrueHD?"

[mojave]

Glynor answered, "Whats the best way to decode DTS-HD and DolbyHD?" You are asking, "What is the second best way to decode DTS-HD and DolbyHD?" 

Decoding with JRiver is easiest and allows for the most flexibility with no hardware requirements.

To bitstream in JRiver go to Tools > Options > Audio > Settings.

[glynor]

My question here is. What current video cards will pass DTS-Master audio and Dolby TrueHD? I like the NVidia cards. But, from what I’ve been able to find out on my own. Current NVidia cards don’t pass HD audio. Is that correct? And if so. What cards are best for my needs? My budget is under $400.00.

I answered that question, the best I could.  It was prefaced with "my question here is" and was near the beginning of your post, so I don't think that was an unreasonable assumption.

Anyway, try searching the forum, if all you need is setup instructions.  This has been covered ad infinitum elsewhere.

You have two options:

1. Bitstream.  In this case, your GPU and receiver will need to support bitstreaming TrueHD and DTS-MA.  It sounds like they do not, so this may not be an option.  This is configured as mojave suggested.

2. Use MC to decode and send uncompressed PCM directly to your receiver.  This will work with your existing hardware (almost certainly, depending on the receiver, but it'd have to be quite broken to not work right with this).

To do this, you need to configure MC to NOT bitstream (the defaults), configure the Output Format DSP to output the proper number of channels, and make sure you have the right DLL in your Win32 directory for MC to decode DTS-MA content (it can do TrueHD and all the other types by itself, but it needs the arcsoft decoder for DTS-MA).  jmone has posted detailed instructions on this before on the forums.  Yell if you can't find them via the google.

[glynor]

But, my Marantz still shows PCM over the HDMI.

One issue is that you are mixing what you want and what is possible with your hardware.

To be absolutely clear:  PCM over HDMI IS NOT LOWER QUALITY (in any conceivable way) than TrueHD or DTS-MA.

All that means is that your PC decoded the audio, via MC's DSP and your $150+ CPU, rather than the $0.38 hardware DSP asic in your receiver.  This is not a problem (and you could argue that MC does a better job, it is certainly FAR more error resilient than my Denon, for example), other than your receiver's TrueHD or DTS-MA "lights" won't light up.  But that does not mean it is "lesser" than bitstreaming in any way.  So long as MC decodes the audio accurately (it does) then audio quality betwen PCM and bitstreaming will be identical.  PCM just means it is sending, essentially, 8-channels of uncompressed WAV content down the HDMI pipe.  That's exactly what happens to the bitstreamed content after it reaches your receiver's $0.38 DSP asic anyway.

The above is essentially the "default mode" of MC.  You just have to (1) make sure to pick the right number of channels in the Output Format DSP, and (2) if you want MC to decode DTS-MA, you need to put an extra filter DLL that is not provided (but easily obtainable from the Internets) in your C:\Windows\System32\ directory.

If you want to send TrueHD and/or DTS-MA without decoding it over the HDMI connection (causing those lights to light up on your receiver), then you must enable bitstreaming in MC.  This will send the undecoded audio down the "HDMI pipe" to your receiver.  This has several downsides (you can't use MC's DSP for this content, and the VideoClock framerate smoothing system doesn't work with bitstreamed audio), but it is certainly possible if both your receiver and your GPU support bitstreaming TrueHD and DTS-MA content.  From what I read, your GTX 570 does not (because Nvidia is stupid about that stuff and rebranding old chips, which is annoying but another story for another day).  If you want this, this is a simple "one click" operation, done via Options > Audio > Bitstreaming: HDMI.

[Darrel McBane]

Just to be clear. My current video card is the NVidia GTX660 Ti. It supports DTS-Master audio as indicated by my reference to Widows showing all supported sound format from my video card. My Marantz AVS 8801 is their newest and highest capable Preamp processor. It is les than two months old. It a reference quality audio and video pre/pro.

Here is how I have JRiver setup for my BluRay movie or concert playback.

Under Options/audio output
output mode: Direct sound
output mode settings: Device:Marantz AV-1 (NVida High Definition auido)
Channels: Default settings
DSP + output format: Channels (stereo)
Mixing JRSS mixing
Sample rate: no change to any settings
Bitrate 24-bit
Bitstreaming: If I chose none (Recommended) I get Muti channel stereo from my Marantz AV pre/pro
If I choose Bitstreaming: HDMI I get this message

"Something went wrong with playback
Details: Playback could not be started on the selected audio output. Format may not be supported by your hardware. Use DSP to change output to compatible format. Also make sure system has valid sound playback divice...etc

I know window recognizes my card with multi audio playback up to and including DTS-Master audio as I indicated before. My Marantz will process any thing I give it.

So, what in the JRiver setup is not allowing the DTS-HD to be sent to my Marantz? If I choose Bitstream:none and playback the video. I'm able to right click on the screen and see DTS-HD audio as a valid format option.

At this point I want my Marantz to show me something other than PCM. I want to see on my Marantz DTS-Master audio.

[glynor]

Just to be clear. My current video card is the NVidia GTX660 Ti.

Ahhh...

I see that now.  It was confusing because you edited the old post instead of posting a reply to yourself, but didn't clearly label it as an EDIT/UPDATE.  Sorry, I missed that part.  I answered quickly, I admit.

Before you do anything, you almost certainly should NOT be using Direct Sound.  Work through this first:
http://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/Audio_Setup

Most importantly, you want to set the Audio Output mode.  In almost all cases, it should be set to either:
WASAPI Event Style (probably)
WASAPI (less likely, and only if Event Style doesn't work right)
ASIO (if your "sound device" has a well-behaved ASIO driver, which the 660 certainly does not)

The only exceptions are if you are on an old, decrepit OS.

For Audio > Output Mode Settings > Device you only need to specify the device if you are using multiple sound outputs and you want to use a device OTHER THAN the Windows default device.  This is easier left to Default.  It doesn't really hurt anything to choose something here, but it doesn't help and adds complexity if you don't need it.

In the DSP under Output Format, you should have (probably):

Bitdepth: 24-bit (assuming your output supports that, it might not if you are in Direct Sound mode, though.  That's why, do the top part first.)
Sample Rate: Left alone unless you know what you're doing (that's mostly there to support high-end DACs that have temperamental input needs).

Channels: Set to the number of channels you have physically connected to the output, in almost all cases.  The only exception would be if you want Stereo Audio to go through completely untouched (not upmixed to surround, or even with just a LFE channel added).

Mixing: JRSS
For Stereo Sources, only mix to 2.1:  This is the sane way to make it not upmix music, if you want music left alone.  JRSS does a nice job expanding music to surround (if you like that sort of thing).  If you don't, there's no reason not to just enable this option and still set the number of channels to the number of speakers you have physically present.

If you follow all of that, then MC will properly decode everything except DTS-MA, for which it will use the DTS core instead.  To enable DTS-MA, from the Bluray page in the wiki:

If you do not enable bitstreaming MC will automatically decode TrueHD soundtracks with no other configuration required. However, to decode DTS-HD you need to copy the "dtsdecoderdll.dll" from an installation of Arcsoft TMT installation to one of the following folders: C:\Users\[USERNAME]\AppData\Roaming\J River\Media Center 18\Plugins\lav, or C:\Users\[USERNAME]\AppData\Roaming\J River\Media Center 18, or Windows\System32 folder for Windows 7 32-bit / Windows\SysWOW64 folder for Windows 7 64 bit The Windows system folder locations are probably best as these will survive updates, upgrades and reinstallation of MC, but you may use whichever you prefer. If you do not have a copy of the Arcsoft TMT DTS decoder you will still get sound, but MC will decode the regular (non-HD) DTS track instead of DTS-HD.

You can check that TrueHD or DTS-HD is being decoded properly using Audio Path.

So, as explained there:  If you have it set up that way (get audio working first, enable the proper number of channels in DSP > Output Mode, and optionally copy in the dtsdecoderdll.dll file to one of the proper spots), it'll fully decode multichannel surround and send the proper channels to your receiver via PCM.  This allows you to end-run receivers that don't support bitstreaming at all (or well), and it also allows you to make use of the other advanced features of MC like the DSP and VideoClock (which smooths out otherwise uneven video framerates due to pulldown conversion).

If you'd really rather your receiver do the decoding, alternatively, you can enable:
Audio > Settings > Bitstreaming: HDMI

And then it will send the audio from video files (and only for video files with appropriate "bitstreamable" audio formats, other audio will still be processed as selected above) directly to your receiver and will let it deal with it.  That lights up the pretty lights on your receiver, but you're reliant on your GPU driver/Sound Driver and Receiver to not be incompetent.

There's nothing else to do.  When you switch Bitstreaming from None to HDMI, it sends any DTS, AC3, TrueHD, etc "formats" it encounters directly down the HDMI output untouched (essentially ignoring most of the other settings).

The most important setting is Options > Audio > Output mode, however, as that determines "how MC talks to your sound device", which determines many of the capabilities of that device.

[Darrel McBane]

Thanks for the thoughtful response glynor.

I'll work with your information tonight and hopefully get to were I want to go to.

Thanks again.

[Darrel McBane]

I set..Audio Output

Output mode: WASAPI (event style)
Output mode settings: Default

DSP format: 7.1
Mixing: no upmixing or downmixing
Bit depth-24

Bitstreaming: Yes HDMI


And what do you know? My Marantz sees the DTS-HD and decodes it. I can't thank you enough for your help with this glynor.

I owe you  one.

[glynor]

And what do you know? My Marantz sees the DTS-HD and decodes it. I can't thank you enough for your help with this glynor.

I owe you  one.

Huzzah!

It was almost certainly the Audio Output Type change.  My AMD cards will bitstream in either WASAPI or in DirectShow mode (I think, but it has been a long, long time), but that's driver dependent (and as you know, AMD has been ahead in the "AV" department for a while, though that all seems to be changing now).  It doesn't matter.  WASAPI is better anyway if your hardware works with it right (most do) and you're running a supported OS.

So you know... I don't know what you're going for, but regarding music playback:

Now that you have bitstreaming working, you no longer have to care about any of the other settings in the DSP as far as playback of those kinds of supported videos are concerned (Dolby Digital, TrueHD, DTS, DTS-MA, etc).  Nothing it the DSP applies at all when you are bitstreaming.

So, that does, in some sense, untie your hands a bit.  It does not matter what you have the DSP Output Channels set to for those types, for example.  Now, it doesn't make any sense to change the Bit-Depth (24 is good for that kind of output, and it probably can't do the next notch up correctly).  However, you can set the Output Channels to whatever you prefer now, and that will apply only to "non-bitstreamed" content.  That's, mostly, music (though any stereo-only, non-bitstreamable audio tracks in video files, like MP3 or AAC or whatever, will also "count" and be handled by the DSP).

So... Depending on what you want, you have a few options:

1. Assuming you want to actually use that surround system you have for music, even though it isn't the "truth" of the recording (it still sounds cool, IMHO), I'd still strongly recommend that you leave it just how you have it now.  JRSS does an awesome job upmixing music to Surround, and it also does a very good job upmixing stereo audio in movies.  Stuff will bitstream if it is available, and will be nicely upmixed by MC when it isn't.  That's essentially how I have my HTPC set up now, and I like it.  I find it irritating to have to switch modes on my receiver between DTS Neo 6 Music (or whatever they call it), and which, of the ones built into receivers, I feel does the best job on upmixing music.  But I greatly preferred ProLogic or the DTS "Cinema" setting better (I couldn't decide which and waffled) for upmixing video content.  JRSS does that for you, and does it well, and It Just works.

2. If you don't want to upmix music, or if you want your receiver to do it, you still have options:

A. Change the DSP back to "Source Number of Channels", or set it explicitly to Stereo.  I wouldn't recommend setting it to Stereo, as this would cause any multichannel FLAC tracks you might have (even those embedded in movies) to be downmixed to Stereo.  So, Source Number is probably the right choice.

B. Leave it on 7.1 and enable the "for Stereo sources" option discussed earlier.

C. Do some combination of the above, and set up Zone Groups in MC to automatically trigger and switch you from "Stereo Mode" to "Multichannel Mode" depending on what [Media Type] you are playing at that particular moment.  Zones contain all of the settings contained within the Options > Audio panel, and the DSP (along with a few other fiddly widgets as well).  You can think of them like a "Set of Settings" which you can turn on and off (and even use simultaneously).  In any case, with MC18, they added the ability to automatically trigger these Zones based on search rules.  So, you could (if you are crazy) set it to upmix everything except songs with "tuesday" in the title in the Progressive Rock genre, which apparently have high production values so you want to only output "pure" stereo for those tracks.  That's an absurd example, of course, the main point is to handle Video differently than Audio, or maybe Classical differently than Rock and Roll than Bluegrass (especially since the DSP also contains all those EQ settings).  In any case, you could use this here, if that's your goal.

[jparaja]

AWSOME write up glynor . this thread should be a sticky. It answered many of my questions.

Thank you.

[icstm]

It is equally useful to understand different approaches to your own.

For example I am quite happy for my receiver using Pro LogicII Music/Movies for stereo sources (as it does from the satellite box) and bitstream surround sound formats. I might not like the manufacturer DSP pre-sets, but the DTS (neo) and Dolby ones appear good.

It is interesting to see an approach that uses JRiver to provide the stereo upmixing with good results.

[FranknKansas]

Great Thread!

Thank you Darrel for your persistence, glynor for your in-depth and understandable explanations and advice, and others.  This answered most of the questions I had and did result in my obtaining the "little red LED indication" on my Onkyo AVR.

If anyone is still here to respond:  If the 'PCM data stream created from the DTS-HD MA stream' and the original DTS-HD MA bitstream contain the same information, why is it some (most?) graphics cards do not support bit-streaming of the DTS-HD MA stream, but they do support the streaming of the 'equivalent' PCM stream?

Why is it that so few media player programs support bit streaming of DTS-HD MA?  I have tried perhaps 10 of them and the only one that I know works (thanks to this thread) is JRiver.

[mojave]

If the 'PCM data stream created from the DTS-HD MA stream' and the original DTS-HD MA bitstream contain the same information, why is it some (most?) graphics cards do not support bit-streaming of the DTS-HD MA stream, but they do support the streaming of the 'equivalent' PCM stream?

All current graphics cards do support bit-streaming DTS-HD MA stream over HDMI. This is part of the HDMI 1.3 spec.

Why is it that so few media player programs support bit streaming of DTS-HD MA?  I have tried perhaps 10 of them and the only one that I know works (thanks to this thread) is JRiver.

I'm glad JRiver is working for you. However, a lot of software supports bitstreaming:  XMBC, WMC, MPC-HC, TotalMedia Theater, WinDVD, etc.

[Hendrik]

To be fair, WMC doesn't support it ouf of the box, you need third-party components to make it work (like my LAV Filters, which also power JRiver MC).
Most commercial Blu-ray player software does support it though.

[6233638]

If anyone is still here to respond:  If the 'PCM data stream created from the DTS-HD MA stream' and the original DTS-HD MA bitstream contain the same information, why is it some (most?) graphics cards do not support bit-streaming of the DTS-HD MA stream, but they do support the streaming of the 'equivalent' PCM stream?

The short answer is that LPCM is totally uncompressed PCM audio which will work with anything.
 
DTS-HD is a proprietary lossless compression format for PCM data, which only some devices will support. Most new devices do, but older hardware may not.
It's only been around for 10 years, which is not that long as far as audio codecs go, is only found on Blu-ray discs, and is an optional format that does not have to be supported by anything.
 

Why is it that so few media player programs support bit streaming of DTS-HD MA?  I have tried perhaps 10 of them and the only one that I know works (thanks to this thread) is JRiver.

Probably because bitstreaming audio is a terrible thing to do for video playback from a PC.
 
The simplest explanation that I can give is that video playback is more complex than it seems, and there are a lot of factors in getting smooth playback to work, with audio and video playing in perfect sync. Bitstreaming makes this impossible.
 
 
The reality is that video hardware is never perfect.
If you request 23.976Hz out of a video card, you might get 23.853Hz or some other rate instead, for example.
You will basically never get a perfect 24/1.001 refresh rate no matter what you do, and the rate usually fluctuates slightly as well.
 
Now this is not a problem for media playback from the PC (at least not in Media Center using madVR/ROHQ) because the video renderer simply presents one frame each time the video card refreshes.
So the rate at which the frames are presented might be imperceptibly off the ideal, but you should never have to drop or repeat a frame, which would result in obvious stutter/judder.
As far as we're concerned, the video presentation is perfect.
 
This even lets the PC do some advanced things that stand-alone players cannot do.
For example in Europe and other regions, prior to Blu-ray, films were released in the "PAL" format (rather than the "NTSC" format) which meant that they were sped up from the original 24fps they were filmed at, to 25fps.
 
Because the PC simply presents each frame at the refresh rate, it lets you restore the original 24fps speed by telling it to output at 24Hz rather than 25Hz.
Over the course of a two hour film, that results in about a five minute difference in playback time.
 
So the PC is totally immune to any timing errors on the video side, as it can just present the video at whichever rate the video card is running at.
 
 
The problem is when you want to bitstream audio.
What bitstreaming does is take the audio straight off the disc (or video file) and send it completely untouched to an external device.
This external device is completely separate from the PC's timing and totally unaware of anything happening on the video side of things.
 
So while our video timing might be slightly off, or worse - intentionally changed to present 25fps material at the original 24Hz rate, the audio is fixed at the original speed.
 
As you can imagine, this results in sync errors, ranging from minor to severe depending on your setup.
Towards the end of a PAL film restored to the original 24Hz rate, it would be almost five minutes out of sync if you were bitstreaming!
 
If, however, you let the PC decode the audio - which is a totally lossless process - it can adjust the audio rate to keep it in perfect sync with the video.
You just need to disable bitstreaming and enable Video Clock to let the PC do this.

[FranknKansas]

All current graphics cards do support bit-streaming DTS-HD MA stream over HDMI. This is part of the HDMI 1.3 spec.
I'm glad JRiver is working for you. However, a lot of software supports bitstreaming:  XMBC, WMC, MPC-HC, TotalMedia Theater, WinDVD, etc.

Thank you mojave.  I appreciate the information about current graphics cards supporting DTS-HD MA.  Before finding this thread and having exhausted everything I could think to do, I had decided to buy a graphics card to augment the audio arrangement of this i5 cpu and integrated HD3000 graphics.  But I was reluctant to do so because I didn't know what specifically to look for in a graphics card.  Knowing that a card compliant with HDMI 1.3 spec will work is great news!

Am I correct in stating that prior to the HDMI 1.3 spec compliance, an HDMI graphics card would support sufficient bandwidth to support 7.1 channels of PCM at say... a 48k rate?  I am wondering about other older computers I have and friends have.

I had tried several of those programs you mention, but I was not successful.  I appreciate your confirming that indeed they do work, evidently with the correct support and setup.  Between all the software, this computer, my 18' HDMI cable, and not knowing what should work, there were just too many variables.

To be fair, WMC doesn't support it ouf of the box, you need third-party components to make it work (like my LAV Filters, which also power JRiver MC).
Most commercial Blu-ray player software does support it though.

Last night, I had decided to begin work to make WMC work.  I could tell it wasn't going to be real straight forward and I was discouraged.  Then I ran across this thread.

Thanks!

Frank

[Hendrik]

Probably because bitstreaming audio is a terrible thing to do for video playback from a PC.
 

Thats really not the reason, since very few players even have capabilities to do something about smooth playback.

[6233638]

Thats really not the reason, since very few players even have capabilities to do something about smooth playback.

Right - why support bitstreaming if it's just going to result in audio that is out of sync or video that stutters?

[FranknKansas]

As you can imagine, this results in sync errors, ranging from minor to severe depending on your setup.
Towards the end of a PAL film restored to the original 24Hz rate, it would be almost five minutes out of sync if you were bitstreaming!
 
If, however, you let the PC decode the audio - which is a totally lossless process - it can adjust the audio rate to keep it in perfect sync with the video.
You just need to disable bitstreaming and enable Video Clock to let the PC do this.

Thank you 6233...

I now understand why glynor strongly suggested to avoid bitstreaming.  Serving video from the PC is new to me.  I have watched only a few seconds at a time so far.  After your explanation, I will know not to be surprised when the sync problems begin.  It seems I will be surprised if there aren't ongoing sync issues.

Great explanation!  After all the research I've done in the past few days, this thread is by far the most valuable.  There are lots of people that would benefit greatly by finding it.

Thanks,

Frank

[Hendrik]

Right - why support bitstreaming if it's just going to result in audio that is out of sync or video that stutters?

My point is, if video stutters anyway (since you don't have Video Clock or anything similar), might as well bitstream, it doesn't really have much of a downside in "primitive" players without audio processing.

[FranknKansas]

My point is, if video stutters anyway (since you don't have Video Clock or anything similar), might as well bitstream, it doesn't really have much of a downside in "primitive" players without audio processing.

Hendrick,

It would seem the more 'primitive' the equipment is, the worse bitstream would be to attempt to use.  But, furthering your point, typically how new would the equipment have to be to be most likely equipped with a "video clock or something similar"?  I haven't witnessed the scenario such that stuttering occurs, but that doesn't sound at all usable.