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Author Topic: Bit Depth Selection  (Read 5374 times)

lasker98

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Bit Depth Selection
« on: June 20, 2013, 08:34:03 pm »

I've had an ongoing issue for the last while. When playing random playlists with a mix of sample rate and bit depth, the 16-44.1 files play fine. Any higher sample rates and bit depths will either be skipped entirely or cause JRiver to crash. I had this problem before but it was resolved when JRiver added the option to manually select bit depth. I use ASIO since that is the native driver supplied with my USD/SPDIF converter. My USB/SPDIF converter is native 32 bits so prior to the ability to manually select bit depth, JRiver would always output 32 bits through ASIO to my converter. The problem I found was that my DAC only accepts 24 bits max. For whatever reason, this combination of 32 bits to converter but dac accepts only 24 bits would cause these problems with high resolution file playback. Prior to the change to allow manual selection of bit depth to 24 bits, I had to use either WASAPI Event Style or Kernel Streaming, since they always allowed manual selection of bit depth. Once I could manually select bit depth at 24 bits in ASIO, I was able to go back to my device's native ASIO driver. At this point, all was good.

As stated at the beginning, I've been having this same problem again. I had forgotten what the cause was and have been putting up with these issues for at least the last month or so. I just noticed that the option to manually select bit depth has been removed and upon reading the forum, I see that ASIO is back to automatically selecting bit depth, which in my case will be 32 bits, which is causing my problems. I was able to find an older version, 18.01.171, which still allows option to manually select bit depth in ASIO. For now this has solved my playback problems.

Based on this problem, I'd like to request that consideration be given to adding back this option to future versions. I'm sure this is not a widespread issue, but I'd also be surprised if I was the only one with this problem. Maybe others have also put up with it not knowing what the problem is.
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6233638

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Re: Bit Depth Selection
« Reply #1 on: June 20, 2013, 10:22:51 pm »

Have you tried the Device uses only most significant 24-bits (Lynx, etc.) ASIO output mode setting?
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lasker98

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Re: Bit Depth Selection
« Reply #2 on: June 21, 2013, 07:37:30 am »

Yes I have. Same problem. I noticed last night even though I have 24 bit with dither selected as bit depth, it still shows output as 32 bit. I can't remember the actual name of the feature but it shows all the steps and processes from input to output.

This is the same as it showed when I had latest version of MC that didn't allow manual selection of bit depth. Main thing is as soon as I select 24 bit depth with dither, I can play all my hi rez files with no issues.
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Matt

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Re: Bit Depth Selection
« Reply #3 on: June 21, 2013, 08:33:29 am »

I've had an ongoing issue for the last while. When playing random playlists with a mix of sample rate and bit depth, the 16-44.1 files play fine. Any higher sample rates and bit depths will either be skipped entirely or cause JRiver to crash. I had this problem before but it was resolved when JRiver added the option to manually select bit depth. I use ASIO since that is the native driver supplied with my USD/SPDIF converter. My USB/SPDIF converter is native 32 bits so prior to the ability to manually select bit depth, JRiver would always output 32 bits through ASIO to my converter. The problem I found was that my DAC only accepts 24 bits max.

Bitdepth is not, and has never been, selectable with ASIO.  The ASIO driver requests a single bitdepth and we honor it.  There is no way we can configure it.

In the past, you could select a bitdepth but it was simply ignored for ASIO (the note on the dialog tried to explain this).

So I believe something else is going on.  It might be sample rate related.  Try forcing a single sample rate using DSP Studio > Output Format, just to test.
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Matt Ashland, JRiver Media Center

lasker98

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Re: Bit Depth Selection
« Reply #4 on: June 21, 2013, 09:01:10 am »

Hi Matt,

What sample rate should I try? 44.1 or 96 kHz? Also as I mentioned in original post, everything works fine with Kernel Streaming or WASAPI, if that helps give any ideas.
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6233638

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Re: Bit Depth Selection
« Reply #5 on: June 21, 2013, 09:24:32 am »

Is this a native ASIO driver, or something like ASIO4All?
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Matt

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Re: Bit Depth Selection
« Reply #6 on: June 21, 2013, 09:25:20 am »

What sample rate should I try? 44.1 or 96 kHz? Also as I mentioned in original post, everything works fine with Kernel Streaming or WASAPI, if that helps give any ideas.

Try whatever one works :)

If WASAPI works and ASIO doesn't, it's probably a driver issue.

There's no harm in picking the method that works best with your hardware -- that's why we support multiple methods for outputting audio :)
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Matt Ashland, JRiver Media Center

lasker98

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Re: Bit Depth Selection
« Reply #7 on: June 21, 2013, 11:16:00 am »

I haven't had a chance to try fixed sample rate since I'll have to uninstall version 18.01.171 and re-install latest version to test this. Likely won't have a chance until tonight.

Re this comment "If WASAPI works and ASIO doesn't, it's probably a driver issue.", if that's true, why does manually selecting 24 bit depth work and as soon as it goes back to auto-selecting bit depth, I have issues?

Is this a native ASIO driver, or something like ASIO4All?
  Yes, native driver. Using Thesycon ASIO driver, where Thesycon is probably the most common or one of the most common providers of ASIO drivers.
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Matt

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Re: Bit Depth Selection
« Reply #8 on: June 21, 2013, 11:22:17 am »

why does manually selecting 24 bit depth work and as soon as it goes back to auto-selecting bit depth, I have issues?

Like I mentioned, ASIO has never looked at any sort of user bitdepth selection (because ASIO doesn't support this).
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Matt Ashland, JRiver Media Center

lasker98

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Re: Bit Depth Selection
« Reply #9 on: June 21, 2013, 12:11:58 pm »

Thanks again Matt.

This is the topic that gave me the clue to even start to troubleshoot this problem initially:  http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=76912.0

I have very little technical knowledge of how all this works but I took from that discussion that somehow a change was made to JRiver that forced 24 bit depth output to the ASIO driver, even though it was asking natively for 32 bits. What I do know is that as soon as I installed the first JRiver update that included these new options, my issues disappeared. I may have incorrectly assumed that this 24 bit/32 bit thing was the culprit. Now it seems as if my problems have started again and correspond with the change in recent JRiver versions where the option to manually select 24 bit depth was eliminated.

I hope you don't think I'm arguing or disputing what you're telling me. That's not the case at all. I'm only trying to understand myself what's happening, since I've spent a lot of time working on this problem. I'm also trying to provide the most complete information I can to you in order for you to help figure out the problem for me. I will try the fixed bit depth as you asked and report back as soon as I have anything to report.
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6233638

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Re: Bit Depth Selection
« Reply #10 on: June 21, 2013, 01:15:37 pm »

If your hardware has a "Thesycon" driver, do you have USB Streaming Mode, and Buffer Size options in the driver control panel? Set those as high as they can go, and try playback again.

This is the topic that gave me the clue to even start to troubleshoot this problem initially:  http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=76912.0
I don't think that is any different from the Device uses only most significant 24-bits (Lynx, etc.) option.

You could always try the bit-depth simulator in the Parametric EQ DSP, but I don't know that it would help.
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lasker98

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Re: Bit Depth Selection
« Reply #11 on: June 21, 2013, 04:07:55 pm »

I've been playing with this some more and it appears this problem is not the same as the initial problem from a few months ago. It seems that for whatever reason some high rez songs are consistently skipped while others play with no problem. If one song from an album plays, every song will play ok. If one song from album won't play, then every song from that album won't play. This is repeatable even after system reboots. This also is happening across all output modes I've tried; native ASIO Thesycon driver, Kernel Streaming and WASAPI. The songs that won't play are also consistent across all output modes. I tried playing songs that won't play on a separate Windows pc using Foobar and all songs play fine in the correct bit depth and sample rate. I have JRiver installed on one computer that acts as server and contains all my music files. I have JRiver also installed on my music player computer. Both installations are the latest, 18.0.201. I rebooted the server computer and exact same songs will still not play.

Would it be possible to submit a log file? I've created one for this problem (I hope).
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lasker98

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Re: Bit Depth Selection
« Reply #12 on: June 21, 2013, 04:25:49 pm »

I tried one more thing. I downgraded to version 18.01.171, which still has the option to set bit depth in ASIO. With this version, all songs I tried played fine, in all output modes. Obviously I have no idea what the problem is but at least with this version, I can play all my files for now.

I would still like to submit the log file I mentioned in my last post if you think this would help.
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lasker98

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Re: Bit Depth Selection
« Reply #13 on: July 04, 2013, 06:49:17 am »

I'm curious why the lack of response on this?

After my last post, I found I still had this same problem:

Quote
it seems that for whatever reason some high rez songs are consistently skipped while others play with no problem. If one song from an album plays, every song will play ok. If one song from album won't play, then every song from that album won't play. This is repeatable even after system reboots. This also is happening across all output modes I've tried; native ASIO Thesycon driver, Kernel Streaming and WASAPI. The songs that won't play are also consistent across all output modes. I tried playing songs that won't play on a separate Windows pc using Foobar and all songs play fine in the correct bit depth and sample rate. I have JRiver installed on one computer that acts as server and contains all my music files. I have JRiver also installed on my music player computer. Both installations are the latest, 18.0.201. I rebooted the server computer and exact same songs will still not play.

So even with 18.01.171, I have this issue. What I did to get around it was set my output mode to be a fixed 44.1 kHz for all sample rates. This allowed playing any and all files consistently. Since then I've upgrade to Windows 8 Pro, clean install. I reinstalled 18.01.171 with my saved registry settings as advised in another thread for transferring JRiver settings to a new computer and it worked great. I instantly had my exact same configuration.

About a week later I upgraded to Windows Server 2012 Standard, again a clean install. I followed the same process for transferring my JRiver settings and again it worked perfectly. This was also with 18.01.171. At this point I had forgotten about the original problems described in this post, likely because of the distraction of installing two new operating systems and getting my computer re-configured. I updated all my drivers and checked for JRiver update and downloaded and installed the most recent version on my new Windows Server 2012 computer as well as the computer I use for main audio file storage. Up to this point, both had been running 18.01.171. Now both were running the same latest release version.

Lo and behold, I started having problem with certain hi rez tracks being skipped over in my random playlist. I tried a few things, play files from memory option, changed output to play original sample rate, all fixed at 96 kHz and nothing worked. Then I remembered I upgraded JRiver. I re-installed 18.01.171 and instantly all files played, with fixed sample rate of 44.1 kHz.

I'm far from a computer illiterate or newbie. At this point, in my mind there's no doubt there's an issue with some change that's been made internally to how JRiver functions, between version 18.01.171 and the more current releases. One change I do know was the removal of the option to manually select 24 bit dithering. I'm not saying that's the problem, just pointing out that is one feature that's in the working version and not in the non-working version. This identical problem has occurred across 3 different Windows operating systems. We can say it's an issue with my computer. But if that's the case, why did these files play fine for so long and then after updating at some point to a new version of JRiver, they no longer played?

Hopefully someone can look into this further and come up with some kind of resolution. In one of my posts I stated I had created a log file when this happened but I received no response. By the way, I don't have JPlay installed.

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6233638

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Re: Bit Depth Selection
« Reply #14 on: July 04, 2013, 07:35:25 am »

even with 18.01.171, I have this issue
It sounds like this is a hardware, driver, or configuration issue if it's showing up in builds that (initially) appeared to work before.

I followed the same process for transferring my JRiver settings and again it worked perfectly.
..
I updated all my drivers and checked for JRiver update
..
Lo and behold, I started having problem with certain hi rez tracks being skipped over in my random playlist.
You should try one change at a time when troubleshooting a problem. Is it possible that the driver update broke playback, rather than the Media Center update? Did 18.0.206 work with the old driver?

I tried a few things, play files from memory option, changed output to play original sample rate, all fixed at 96 kHz and nothing worked. Then I remembered I upgraded JRiver. I re-installed 18.01.171 and instantly all files played, with fixed sample rate of 44.1 kHz.
Did you try forcing 44.1kHz output in 18.0.206?

One change I do know was the removal of the option to manually select 24 bit dithering.
This should be the default output, if that's what your hardware uses.

What happens in 18.0.171 if you force the 32-bit formats - do they play at all, or do they return an error?
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lasker98

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Re: Bit Depth Selection
« Reply #15 on: July 04, 2013, 08:10:44 am »

Quote
even with 18.01.171, I have this issue
It sounds like this is a hardware, driver, or configuration issue if it's showing up in builds that (initially) appeared to work before.
I didn't change the configuration. It just stopped working. I don't know for sure what version it happened. 18.01.171 just happened to be the only earlier version I could find to download that still had the manual setting for dither options.

Quote
I followed the same process for transferring my JRiver settings and again it worked perfectly.
..
I updated all my drivers and checked for JRiver update
..
Lo and behold, I started having problem with certain hi rez tracks being skipped over in my random playlist.
You should try one change at a time when troubleshooting a problem. Is it possible that the driver update broke playback, rather than the Media Center update? Did 18.0.206 work with the old driver?

No, I don't believe at all that the driver update broke playback, I was having this same issue on 2 previous Windows installations that were running my original drivers.

Quote
I tried a few things, play files from memory option, changed output to play original sample rate, all fixed at 96 kHz and nothing worked. Then I remembered I upgraded JRiver. I re-installed 18.01.171 and instantly all files played, with fixed sample rate of 44.1 kHz.
Did you try forcing 44.1kHz output in 18.0.206?
Yes.

Quote
One change I do know was the removal of the option to manually select 24 bit dithering.
This should be the default output, if that's what your hardware uses.
I understand that is how it works in the versions where the manual option was removed. As I stated, I'm not saying that's the problem. I was just pointing out that is one change I know in JRiver from when I had no problem to starting to have problems. Also as stated in one of the original posts, I was having the problem long ago, and then when the option to manually select 24 bit dithering and force most significant 24 bits was implemented, the problem went away. Again, I'm not saying this is the problem but if nothing else, it's an interesting coincidence.

Quote
What happens in 18.0.171 if you force the 32-bit formats - do they play at all, or do they return an error?
They play at 44.1 kHz, not original sample rate (the same exact files every time). Like I said, I tried the files that don't play, in Foobar, and they play fine.

Wouldn't it be simpler to just send in the error log? What's the purpose of the logging function if not to help troubleshoot problems?
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6233638

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Re: Bit Depth Selection
« Reply #16 on: July 04, 2013, 09:31:07 am »

Wouldn't it be simpler to just send in the error log? What's the purpose of the logging function if not to help troubleshoot problems?
You should definitely send in a log if you think it's a problem in Media Center and not a configuration issue.
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lasker98

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Re: Bit Depth Selection
« Reply #17 on: July 04, 2013, 10:16:06 am »

Do you know how I do it? I thought Matt had to ask me to email it to him.
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6233638

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Re: Bit Depth Selection
« Reply #18 on: July 04, 2013, 10:23:34 am »

Help > Logging > Enable Logging

Reproduce the problem, and then click Report Problem

This will save the log file to your desktop, which you can then email to: logs [at] jriver.com with a short description of the issue.
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lasker98

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Re: Bit Depth Selection
« Reply #19 on: July 04, 2013, 11:04:17 am »

Thank You.

I was sure I had saved the error log I previously created but it looks like I lost it during my different OS upgrades. I'm currently running JRiver in Windows Server 2012 Core mode. I don't know how, or if it's even possible, to access the JRiver interface to create a new log. Next time I revert Server 2012 back to GUI mode, I will create a new error log and submit it.

Thanks again.

Bill
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