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[Matt]

MC defaults to DirectSound sound output so that a new user will always get working sound when they first try it.

For better quality, we recommend a hardware direct output mode like WASAPI or ASIO.

However, it's unreasonable to expect a new user to know what a WASAPI or an ASIO is.  If they go to Options > Audio, there's not much guidance for what mode they should pick or why.  The name of their device is hidden until they pick 'Output mode settings...'.

I'm wondering if anyone has suggestions for ways we might simplify or improve this.

We have a decent wiki for this and other sites have good MC setup guides, but only some users find or read things like that.

One solution would be an Audio Setup Wizard to walk a user through picking an output mode, device, and testing it.  My objection to this is that it's a second way to set things, so could possibly make things worse.  Microsoft keeps adding wizards to Windows (and now Metro apps) while keeping the old tool.  I find it confusing.  We could allow only a wizard, but this means settings are one page farther away and not searchable.

So I'm hoping someone will have a cheap-and-easy solution that simplifies things while fitting with the existing architecture.

Thanks for any ideas.

[MrC]

[ probably not cheap or easy ]

What about a Hints or Suggestions type of notification area in the Action Window, where MC lists some suggestions that might be appropriate.  I know these can become as inane as Windows' stupid Hide My Unused Desktop Icons hint, so these notifications need to be dismissable for good.  See Mac OS X's Notification Manager, or Growl.

   Hint: "You might be able to optimize your audio ..."

These notifications could invoke a wizard, open an Options section, or link and redirect to the appropriate wiki page which explains what to do or try.  This gives you flexibility to first attempt at walking users through via documentation, and then over time could be supplemented or replaced with a Wizard (which itself might then lead to a wiki later).

[Matt]

One tricky thing is that you pick the mode before the device.  I think people are more likely to know the device than the mode.

If the first option was 'Device' under Options > Audio > Audio Output, it could show a selection like the following:

Device:
    Default (most compatible; will always work)
    --------
    ASIO Lynx [ASIO]
    ASIO Lynx USB [ASIO]
    Creative ASIO [ASIO]
    M-Audio Delta ASIO [ASIO]
    -------
    Line 1/2 (M-Audio Delta Audiophile) [WASAPI]
    Multichannel (M-Audio Delta Audiophile) [WASAPI]
    Speakers (Starburst USBDAC) [WASAPI]
    S/PDIF (M-Audio Delta Auiodphile) [WASAPI]
    --------
    Direct Sound >
        Default
        Speakers 1/2
        etc.
    Kernel Streaming >
        Default
        Speakers 1/2
        etc.
    Null Output (for testing or systems with no soundcard)
    Disk Writer (output audio to disk)
   

The point is that it puts the recommended hardware direct modes at the top.  It also makes the device name the first thing and the mode second.

[kstuart]

Matt wrote: "However, it's unreasonable to expect a new user to know what a WASAPI or an ASIO is."

I think that a person who can hear the difference between Direct Sound and ASIO is going to be motivated to find out what ASIO is.

The small segment of people who can hear the difference, but cannot deal with the technicalities of WASAPI and ASIO, are not going to be using a PC for music at all, or else they can pay someone thousands of dollars to setup their audio system for them.

In other words, the group of people who a) can hear the difference between Direct Sound and ASIO, and b) cannot deal with the technicalities of ASIO and WASAPI, and c) use a PC for music, and d) can't afford to pay someone to setup everything, is essentially non-existent.

It's far less than the number of people who might buy MC18 if it could act as a server for Roku (so that they don't have to run both MC18 and the Plex server at the same time).

[locust]

This might be outwith the scope a little but I believe that for most items in the options window could benefit if when hovered over a tooltip could appear, providing a short explanation of the function, recommendations & perhaps including links to a wiki page for more detailed explanation.. (All permanently dismissible of course)

Would still require a lot of work for this especially translating it to the various languages in mc.. But I believe the community could help with writing the tooltips & translations of them

It also makes the device name the first thing and the mode second.

I agree makes sense choosing the device first, the way it is now is like going for a run outside barefoot then choosing what to wear on your feet..

[6233638]

I agree with whoever it was yesterday that was saying that the whole settings interface could do with an overhaul, but that's considerably larger scope than this, and I wouldn't expect to see a change in MC18. It did get me thinking though.

I really need to spend more time thinking over this problem for a good solution, but do think a wizard is going to be necessary for normal users, rather than advanced users.
I certainly can't think of a better way to actually select, configure, and test an audio device than using some kind of wizard.

WASAPI buffer size seems to give a lot of devices trouble for example, and a wizard that played audio (royalty free music?) as you adjusted the buffer size could make that significantly easier to set up.
It may also be beneficial for you to collect WASAPI buffer sizes for each device that has gone through The Wizard, to hopefully auto-configure devices in the future (or at least have a good starting point) to take the guesswork out of it for other users.

And I agree that it would make sense for the audio device to be your first selection, not audio output mode.

Looking at my system, I have:

ASIO:
Benchmark_DAC2 ASIO Driver
Direct Sound:
SONY TV-1 (NVIDIA High Definition Audio)
Speakers (Benchmark DAC2 USB Audio 2.0)
Kernel Streaming:
Benchmark DAC2 Audio 2.0 Output
WASAPI:
SONY TV-1 (NVIDIA High Definition Audio)
Speakers (Benchmark DAC2 USB Audio 2.0)


Do you think it is feasible to parse those so the user is only presented with:
Sony TV
Benchmark DAC2

Or is that too much work for something that may be unreliable?


The next step would be audio output, where the user would be presented with the following options:
Benchmark DAC2: ASIO, WASAPI, Kernel Streaming, Direct Sound
Sony TV: WASAPI, Direct Sound


A wizard would also be able to prompt the user for things like whether they want the audio output to be exclusive, get the number of channels correct, check that audio is going to the right speakers, select what method of volume control they want etc.

[paul1970]

kstuart: I agree with you up to a point, but the problem is that sometimes it's necessary to move away from DS not just to improve sound quality but to resolve problems with audio output. I accepted defaults and was getting periodic 'popping' which was fixed by going with WASAPI. I only resolved this by searching the forums and finding several other people had the same issue.

It's always going to best to have a user choose the 'recommended' option if at all possible as early as possible in the configuration process. Otherwise they risk becoming an unnecessary support case and their experience of the product may be tarnished.

As unpalatable as it may be I think that the wizard is the best solution from the user pov. Users are familiar with wizards and they hold your hand through the whole config process. It would be best if the wizard was started automatically the first time that the app was executed (even if the user doesn't want to deal with it and Cancels at that point at least they will know it's there and what it's for). It should be possible to invoke it easily from the GUI at any point after that. Problem is that my experience of designing, coding, testing and maintaining wizards suggests that they are neither cheap nor easy.

[InflatableMouse]

I think the output mode pulldown needs to be moved to the output mode settings dialog box. The output mode settings dialog box currently changes layout depending on the output mode settings, I think that needs to become a generic layout that adds/removes options depending on the output mode chosen. If a driver or outpute mode has its own control panel (ASIO comes to mind but there are others), simply add the button to the output mode settings dialog box.

A button to test or determine which output to use could simply output a bit of sound in a loop and cycle output modes per device detected, with a popup asking the user if he can hear the sound. Then automatically choose the best option from the ones the user confirmed he heard something.

[JohnT]

I like a lot of the suggestions in this thread,
especially 6233638's idea of condensing what the user chooses from this:

Code: [Select]

ASIO:
Benchmark_DAC2 ASIO Driver
Direct Sound:
SONY TV-1 (NVIDIA High Definition Audio)
Speakers (Benchmark DAC2 USB Audio 2.0)
Kernel Streaming:
Benchmark DAC2 Audio 2.0 Output
WASAPI:
SONY TV-1 (NVIDIA High Definition Audio)
Speakers (Benchmark DAC2 USB Audio 2.0)Down to this:

Code: [Select]

Sony TV
Benchmark DAC2
It might be too difficult to simplify to this level immediately, but this could be a target to aim for.

After the device is chosen, we should have a simplified list of possible modes.  Advanced and seldom used modes like 'Disk Writer' and 'Null output' (and maybe Kernel Streaming) should be separated from the common modes. The default mode should be the one most likely to "just work" out of the box (like we do with Red October video), then provide hover tooltips or hints like MrC suggested to point out a mode that might provide higher quality.  At a future point we could provide a wizard that walks the user through setup and lets them listen to the different modes.

I also like InflatableMouse's idea of a consistent format for the output mode settings with a button for ASIO or any driver that needs custom settings. The buffering settings for different modes should look as consistent as possible for the user, even if they have different underlying functionality.

I think most options on this page need both a tooltip/hint AND a 'More info...' link to a wiki page alongside the option.  Most new users (and a lot of long time users!), have no idea how or when to modify these kinds of options:

• Bitstreaming
• Prebuffering
• Play silence at startup...
• Play files from memory...

These are all listed with equal prominence, even though some have a huge effect on audio playback (i.e. bitstreaming), while others have only esoteric effect (i.e. memory playback).

I don't think we necessarily need to litter all of the other (non-Audio) Options pages with this level of help.  But we are primarily an audio player application and audio setup is arguably the most complex and error prone process for most users, so I think a higher level of hand-holding on this page is justified.

[rec head]

MC is a deep pool to dive into. I'm guessing that I am at the beginner end of the scale of your users and it takes a long time to get things setup and even longer to start understanding what I'm actually doing. A wizard is a good idea. It can do 2 things the main thing is getting your gear working nicely. The second thing is a bonus in that it  teaches you about the settings you are making/changing. If you ever make changes that mess things up running the wizard again can help get things straightened out.

I think the only other thing to do is what J River has been dreading which is to write a setup guide/manual from the ground up.

[csimon]

FWIW I like the idea of presenting the user up-front with a list of what they can do, i.e. all their audio devices, and seleccting one will set things up as necessary. This would also help with questions such as "How to send output to xxx device or sound card", as at the moment their output devices are not shown to them until they enter the settings dialogs and have pulled down a list.  If, as soon as you got into audio settings, you have a list of your devices then it becomes obvious.

I also don't like the idea of Wizards all over the place.

But thinking about it, I guess listing all the audio devices is indeed a sort of Wizard.  Let's call it a new sort of Wizard! Something that pre-selects or works out all the combinations of things and scenarios that are possible and presents them to you, then when you select one it automatically sets it up??

[Claude Lapalme]

A user guide may be misplaced resources for a program such as JRiver which is a moving target. I am a new user, since January, and the weekly updates within that span of version 18 have been significant. They have included the more invisible “under the hood” type of improvements alongside what can only be called new features such as using dsp settings to convert audio. What I do think however is that the Wiki should be updated more regularly to address those changes and that it be expanded as well. Using DSP studio for converting for example, is not yet included in the Wiki article about format conversion. I know a Wiki can be modified by users, but it is evident that users alone cannot do the job ATM. Looking for a JRiver command that no longer exist in the current version when one has an issue is a bit frustrating at times.

The FAQ section contains a lot of disorganized sections. A forum section entitled “Guides” and containing guides to the most helpful features (Audio, Network etc …)would be welcome. Most of those guides exists in one form or another, but could use the odd rewrite. The starter guide and intermediate guides should be more prominently displayed IMHO.

As far as audio setup is concerned, I’ll add my voice to the idea of a wizard that could select the best configuration and even some DSP output settings. I’m a musician and I bought JRiver because of audio, so I was very persistent in finding as much as I could about the possibilities of the program. Trial and error, at some stage of the game, is inevitable if one is to truly understand what JRiver can do; but the program also has better library management and could be used by others who may come to appreciate the audio features later in the game. JRiver’s richness is a double-edged sword: it can frighten new users and in fact, this was my second attempt at using it (it stuck big-time now: best money I’ve ever spent. Love the program), and a couple of well-written wizards could really help spreading the JRiver gospel, especially if presented to the new user at installation time.

[rjm]

cheap and easy: add tooltips to existing options with 1 line description and link to wiki

[JohnT]

cheap and easy: add tooltips to existing options with 1 line description and link to wiki

Would it be too inconsistent to just have tooltips on these audio options?  Would we need to tooltip every option in the program (groan)?

[6233638]

A user guide may be misplaced resources for a program such as JRiver which is a moving target. I am a new user, since January, and the weekly updates within that span of version 18 have been significant. They have included the more invisible “under the hood” type of improvements alongside what can only be called new features such as using dsp settings to convert audio.

I think the ultimate goal should be to design an interface which is easy enough that you shouldn't have to visit the Wiki under most circumstances, and provides contextual help within the program when necessary. That's far easier said than done, however.

What I do think however is that the Wiki should be updated more regularly to address those changes and that it be expanded as well. Using DSP studio for converting for example, is not yet included in the Wiki article about format conversion.

It might be worth having a "new features" Wiki page which keeps a list of only the new features that have been added to the program - such as video-to-audio conversions, for example.
Or perhaps the "start" page inside Media Center should be updated more frequently to include this sort of thing. Maybe I'm getting ahead of myself, but it could even be designed to show what has been added since you last updated. (it seems some users don't use automatic updates - just recently I saw someone say they went from ~150 to ~200)

A forum section entitled “Guides” and containing guides to the most helpful features (Audio, Network etc …)would be welcome. Most of those guides exists in one form or another, but could use the odd rewrite. The starter guide and intermediate guides should be more prominently displayed IMHO.

A forum section dedicated to guides might be a good idea - or at least a topic stuck at the top of the board with a list of useful guides written by members, though I think the list of topics stuck at the top of the board is already too much.
More than one or two, and users just start ignoring them - at least that was my experience from running a forum. Of course, you have the same problem when there are too many different sections to check as well. (and I would probably organize the current boards a little differently) Running a forum is hard work.

JRiver’s richness is a double-edged sword: it can frighten new users and in fact, this was my second attempt at using it (it stuck big-time now: best money I’ve ever spent. Love the program), and a couple of well-written wizards could really help spreading the JRiver gospel, especially if presented to the new user at installation time.

I agree - it was also my second time trying the program before I decided that I wanted to purchase a license (you have Nevcariel to thank/blame for that) because my first impression was that the program was confusing to use, and I didn't like the interface. (I'm still not too hot on the Noire skin - but I have spent some of my free time trying to make Media Center look like iTunes 11, so what do I know)

I preferred the simplicity of MPC-HC because that worked for me as a player, and I didn't even know that I wanted an app to manage my film library, because my system of using Windows Libraries "worked".

After purchasing the license, I probably spent the first few weeks being blown away by just how powerful Media Center actually is, and what it was capable of doing for library management.
This was not apparent to me at all when I first started using it, and I had thought it was "just another player" like iTunes.

Now that I have been using Media Center for ~5 months, especially from hanging around here and seeing just how much interaction there is with the developers, I can't see myself using anything else.

cheap and easy: add tooltips to existing options with 1 line description and link to wiki

That assumes your users are going to read them. It's not necessarily a safe assumption to make, and some users may find it overwhelming.
It may be a "quick fix" but it doesn't address the underlying complexity of the setup options we have in Media Center.

[adamt]

A forum section dedicated to guides might be a good idea - or at least a topic stuck at the top of the board with a list of useful guides written by members, though I think the list of topics stuck at the top of the board is already too much.
More than one or two, and users just start ignoring them - at least that was my experience from running a forum. Of course, you have the same problem when there are too many different sections to check as well. (and I would probably organize the current boards a little differently) Running a forum is hard work.

I'd have to agree that the forum could use some reformatting.  In my opinion this would be the best way to improve the quality of support for new users.  I'm not a huge fan of forums but when I had questions about my adobe software I found their forums incredibly easy to use and helpful.  It was easy to find where to ask a question and the search previous posts.  If one were to come here as a new user with little knowledge of forums like me, it isn't obvious where to ask a question.  Nothing irritates me more than coming to a forum, spending a good amount of time finding a logical place to post, then to called out that I put it in the wrong place and that I should post again.
Also, it may be just me, but the theme looks a little dated.  That's what scares me when I first come to it.  Wouldn't be very difficult to get a much cleaner look with just a few css changes.  

Edit: See, I don't know forums very well.  Perhaps this is in the wrong place...

[eddieg69]

I'd have to agree that the forum could use some reformatting.  In my opinion this would be the best way to improve the quality of support for new users.  I'm not a huge fan of forums but when I had questions about my adobe software I found their forums incredibly easy to use and helpful.  It was easy to find where to ask a question and the search previous posts.  If one were to come here as a new user with little knowledge of forums like me, it isn't obvious where to ask a question.  Nothing irritates me more than coming to a forum, spending a good amount of time finding a logical place to post, then to called out that I put it in the wrong place and that I should post again.
Also, it may be just me, but the theme looks very dated.  That's what scares me when I first come to it.  Wouldn't be very difficult to get a much cleaner look with just a few css changes.  

Edit: See, I don't know forums very well.  Perhaps this is in the wrong place...

Couldn't agree with you more. I would like to get some help getting my remote to work, but I have no idea how to post let alone where to post.

[kstuart]

kstuart: I agree with you up to a point, but the problem is that sometimes it's necessary to move away from DS not just to improve sound quality but to resolve problems with audio output. I accepted defaults and was getting periodic 'popping' which was fixed by going with WASAPI. I only resolved this by searching the forums and finding several other people had the same issue.

That strikes me as a "workaround" rather than a fix.  Direct Sound should work for everything.

By the way, I think that Wizards and Tooltips are both great, and I encourage their implementation.

However, I don't think that technically-challenged users need to be able to change anything from the default.  That is what I was taking issue with.   If you do not know what WASAPI is, then you do not need to use it (if it is not the default).

[MrC]

I want to apologize for my post above - I think I lead this conversation astray.  I entirely missed the mark in terms of what Matt was looking for.  Drats.

[rjm]

Would it be too inconsistent to just have tooltips on these audio options?  Would we need to tooltip every option in the program (groan)?

I think the cost of inconsistency is outweighed by the benefit of tooltips on the complicated things that most people will not understand. I am a hard core computer geek and probably know more than 99% of population yet I do not understand these audio options.