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[Samson]

Hi Guys,

NAS devices seem to be a fairly ubiquitous component in Computer Audio. I recently explored them as a way of achieving protected storage (RAID) for large amounts of music/video no longer fitting on one HDD. However RAID storage can be achieved without a NAS.

Many people seem to use a NAS as their server for their music/video files and in which case it seems to make sense to have your files stored there.

Currently JRiver MC Library server is acting as my server to JRiver clients. I also gather that JRiver can be setup as a DLNA server for DLNA clients/renderers. My HTPC stays running all the time anyway for recording TV shows (although I suppose it could be set to sleep in between TV recordings or for that matter when not serving a client??...haven't looked into that).

So assuming 1) the HTPC is running all (or most) of the time and JRiver can provide all the server needs for streaming to clients and/or DLNA clients/renderers and 2) if storage can be achieved with eg  a locally attached multi enclosure via eSATA (maybe USB3) utilizing RAID redundancy/spanning multiple disks…….Do I need a NAS ?

I am guessing there are many JRiver MC users that are faced with a similar scenario and do opt for a NAS. Some would be because they want their server located remote to the listening area and others may be realizing other NAS /server related benefits that are unknown to me at this point.

Thanks for your thoughts
Cheers
David

[InflatableMouse]

I'm thinking why I wouldn't want local attached storage as opposed to a NAS (or home server I can tuck away). I'm beginning to feel a little guilty having advised local attached storage because its actually something I really wouldn't want to use myself. But then again, there are people here that use it that aren't bothered by any of these.

Reasons for me are:

• I don't want a PC in the living room to be always on. Even though mine is most of the time, I want to turn it off without thinking about other dependencies.
• I don't want another potentially big noisy box to sit next to it (and trust me, having 5 or more disk in a single cabinet is going to make some sound).
• The HTPC isn't a file server; reading/writing large or many files from/to it might interfere with playing music/movies. I found that in particular USB disks are bad in this regard.
• I don't want to use my HTPC for things other than being a HTCP; see point above. This is what I have now and I don't like it.
• Convenience; expansion, replacing disks, online migration.
• Possibility of running other software without putting stress on the HTCP. Usenet clients can run on most NAS devices, web servers, etc.
• probably more reasons if I continue to think about it

I also realize I forgot to explain something about disk cabinets - sorry! The RAID capabilities in a NAS are not in a disk cabinet. If you want redundancy in the form of RAID-5 or RAID-6, your PC is going to have to provide that via software. Calculating parity is CPU intensive and could be another source of interference while playing music or movies, probably depends on how fast the HTPC is I suppose.

You really have to think about this for yourself. I don't have room for another box near the HTPC, maybe you have. I'm annoyed by the slightest hum of a fan, maybe you don't care. Etc etc.

I think knowledge and experience with computers and storage is also an important factor. Let's say you go ahead to set up a 5-disk external cabinet on eSATA. Then after some time, one of the disks in the array fails. Your RAID-5 continues to work but how do you know which disk failed? I don't think an external cabinet will turn a LED red, if it has LEDs at all. I think I would break a little sweat, although I think I'd manage . Thinking about though it its not going to be easy at all. It's going to depend on the software and hardware whether its going to be easy or not and no shop I think is going to be able to tell you this in advance.

Last but not least, I really hope others will share their experiences too. There are guys out there with more experience in some of these areas than I have but above all, its always better to hear different sides.

My vote would go to a NAS or as I'm going to do for myself, a home server.

[dean70]

I just migrated to a NAS setup from internal HDDs - I previously had 2 x internal HDDs in the HTPC that were running low on space. The system and hdd temps were borderline & adding more hdds would require an additional case fan (and the added noise that comes with it). Much happier with the NAS setup, which is more convenient to expand. I have migrated my data off all my PCs as well as Videos and music to the NAS. Makes it much easier to manage.

I only keep user profiles and AppData local, either on a SSD or a small raid-0 config. All libraries in Windows 7 point to the NAS. I previously had so much duplicated data between PCs.

[Samson]

I just migrated to a NAS setup from internal HDDs - I previously had 2 x internal HDDs in the HTPC that were running low on space. The system and hdd temps were borderline & adding more hdds would require an additional case fan (and the added noise that comes with it). Much happier with the NAS setup, which is more convenient to expand. I have migrated my data off all my PCs as well as Videos and music to the NAS. Makes it much easier to manage.

I only keep user profiles and AppData local, either on a SSD or a small raid-0 config. All libraries in Windows 7 point to the NAS. I previously had so much duplicated data between PCs.

Hi Dean,
so why a NAS and not an external RAID array, did you need the native DLNA NAS server ?

[Samson]

Hi Inflatable, thanks as always for your great advice

Reasons [for NAS] for me are:

• I don't want a PC in the living room to be always on. Even though mine is most of the time, I want to turn it off without thinking about other dependencies.
• I don't want another potentially big noisy box to sit next to it (and trust me, having 5 or more disk in a single cabinet is going to make some sound).

My htpc is a dedicated laptop with reasonable grunt, tucks away with lid closed amongst HiFi Gear, runs very quietly, stays on 24/7 as a server and to record TV.

I have huge HiFi racks with for example gryphon monoblocks and mark levinson gear….so the little laptop is dwarfed lol. I have a fake wall built in the living room with pretty HiFI components in front of, and clutter and unsightly or potentially noisy gear sitting behind.

I once had the luxury of building a dedicated music room in an a previous house back in the old 'analogue' days so my wife is very understanding about this lesser lunacy. In that previous house we also had a formal living room sans any offensive electronic gear, no tv etc….heavens forbid if visitors saw such lack of refinement, lol. I think we used that living room about twice in 10 years ! Now when people enter our living area they get hit with massive speakers, Hi Fi gear, bigscreen TV and someone handing pizza and beers through the kitchen servery, ;-).

• The HTPC isn't a file server; reading/writing large or many files from/to it might interfere with playing music/movies. I found that in particular USB disks are bad in this regard.
• Possibility of running other software without putting stress on the HTCP. Usenet clients can run on most NAS devices, web servers, etc.

I use the HTPC as the server with MC the server software. I generally don’t work on the server/htpc when listening to music etc so hopefully minimal interference. I suppose the trick is to eliminate all other services or OS tasks and have minimal other software applications. Some are fanatical about this (not on this forum),some say the CPU and RAM should handle it, as music/video is not an intensive task.For labour intensive tasks,ripping, and for just convenience I use my powerful desktop pc.

Re building a server...I have heard of CAPS and must read more but essentially, are they not, a dedicated HTPC? You still need to provide storage somehow eg a mapped drive to a NAS or a locally attached usb/eSATA RAID.

I also realize I forgot to explain something about disk cabinets - sorry! The RAID capabilities in a NAS are not in a disk cabinet. If you want redundancy in the form of RAID-5 or RAID-6, your PC is going to have to provide that via software. Calculating parity is CPU intensive and could be another source of interference while playing music or movies, probably depends on how fast the HTPC is I suppose.

So, buying a locally attached  RAID implemented-in-the-hardware device may be the way to go ?

• Convenience; expansion, replacing disks, online migration.

But this benefit would accrue to an external RAID array,NAS, or Drobo device ?

Let's say you go ahead to set up a 5-disk external cabinet on eSATA. Then after some time, one of the disks in the array fails. Your RAID-5 continues to work but how do you know which disk failed? I don't think an external cabinet will turn a LED red, if it has LEDs at all. I think I would break a little sweat, although I think I'd manage .

Ugh,yes. Do you start doing checkdsk or some other tester on each individual HDD.I think Drobo offered some kind of HDD monitoring and telling you which disc needs replacing with coloured lights, green good, red bad etc.

Last but not least, I really hope others will share their experiences too. There are guys out there with more experience in some of these areas than I have but above all, its always better to hear different sides.

Doesn't appear forthcoming. I suspect I may have offended some with my outspoken opinions regarding improving MC (making it more user friendly for beginners).

My vote would go to a NAS or as I'm going to do for myself, a home server.

If understanding this correctly it boils down to whether you need the DLNA server function or not and secondly whether you want/need to move the server and storage away from the living room. I know the second issue isnt a factor for me (whether form factor or noise)...I just don't know if/how adding a NAS native server will improve my world. If not, then maybe a locally attached RAID hardware device is what I now need for storage (tucked behind my fake wall).
[/list]

[dean70]

Hi Dean,
so why a NAS and not an external RAID array, did you need the native DLNA NAS server ?

I dont know how robust an external RAID array would be - still requires 1 PC to be left running. Wanted something that is reliable for 24/7 use and can be managed centrally. I have the NAS hooked to a UPS with auto-shutdown in case of a power outage to protect my data. I dont use the NAS as a DLNA server, it is purely for file serving/storage. I have backups stored on individual hdds, which can be slotted into a hot-swap drive bay in one of the PCs.

[InflatableMouse]

So, buying a locally attached  RAID implemented-in-the-hardware device may be the way to go ?

I didn't think external harddisk enclosures would come with RAID possibilities but I found a couple. The brands are those in the lower end of market, Fantec, Addonics, Sharkoon. Not very inspiring to say the least. I found a few manuals and really, this is not something you'd want to use. RAID modi is selected by setting DIP switches. You need to turn the device off, set DIP switches and turn it back on. It configures the RAID (erasing all data) and off you go.

There are ZERO management posibilities.

So an external enclosure is an option, but not with RAID. I can't advise software RAID for serious use either.

But this benefit would accrue to an external RAID array,NAS, or Drobo device ?

A Drobo is a NAS. Only NAS devices can expand, replace, etc online. They are managable. An external cabinet as I explained above is unmanaged and does not have these benefits.

Re building a server...I have heard of CAPS and must read more but essentially, are they not, a dedicated HTPC? You still need to provide storage somehow eg a mapped drive to a NAS or a locally attached usb/eSATA RAID.

I don't know anything about CAPS, I just learnt it last week when I read someone here having one. If it is a dedicated HTPC you'd just replace your laptop and indeed, stil need to provide storage.

Ugh,yes. Do you start doing checkdsk or some other tester on each individual HDD.I think Drobo offered some kind of HDD monitoring and telling you which disc needs replacing with coloured lights, green good, red bad etc.

That's the thing. With RAID, you no longer see individual drives to run chkdsk on. You have 1 drive, your RAID volume. Chkdsk would run against the RAID volume and not against the physical, individual drives. Since with 1 failed drive your RAID is functional and online, chkdsk would return its all fine (chkdsk wouldn't work for other reasons but I won't go into that). Unless the cabinet can blink a led you're on your own to figure out which drive failed and in case of an external cabinet, there is no management software to give you a serial number ... with a NAS (and Drobo) this is proven to work. The LED blinks or turns red, you replace the disk with the RAID online and functional and it will fix it - simple as that.

Doesn't appear forthcoming. I suspect I may have offended some with my outspoken opinions regarding improving MC (making it more user friendly for beginners).

I like to believe our senior members are a little more mature than that.

If understanding this correctly it boils down to whether you need the DLNA server function or not and secondly whether you want/need to move the server and storage away from the living room. I know the second issue isnt a factor for me (whether form factor or noise)...I just don't know if/how adding a NAS native server will improve my world. If not, then maybe a locally attached RAID hardware device is what I now need for storage (tucked behind my fake wall).

Forget about DLNA. It's a gimmick, nothing more.

It's like this:
* You want RAID --> NAS
* You want convenience, expandability, reliability, managability --> NAS

If you don't care about those, can't afford it or want fast local storage (like internal disks) --> external drive bay on eSATA.

If you don't care about that either or just want cheap as possible --> USB.

To be frank I believe a NAS is the best option. Go back to the Drobo and Synology websites and compare their feature sheets. Read some forum posts with people asking newbie questions on setup and installation, and of course, the problems they run into and how they are solved.

[Samson]

Thanks Inflatable, I am very appreciative for your time and help.Learning complex subjects, its sometimes hard to know where to start without some kind of roadmap and acquiring some basic knowledge base. You have provided that, so thanks again !

One small confusion. When you say you will build your own server I initially thought you meant a CAPS. This is apparently not the case. Did you mean your own NAS device using FreeNAS or something ?

[InflatableMouse]

Learning complex subjects, its sometimes hard to know where to start without some kind of roadmap and acquiring some basic knowledge base. You have provided that, so thanks again !

Says the spinal surgeon  .

Just kidding, glad I can help!

One small confusion. When you say you will build your own server I initially thought you meant a CAPS. This is apparently not the case. Did you mean your own NAS device using FreeNAS or something ?

When I built my HTPC I figured I'd combine a server and HTPC role in one machine. I've always built my own pc's since Intel introduced the 80286. Before that, we (as in, my dad ) first had a Tandy Model IV and then a IBM 8086 (after which the Tandy moved to me).

Anyway, I'm not 100% happy with the combined role because, among other things, the case is too big and the server tasks sometimes interfere with playback.

I'm waiting for Intel to release the new NUC's based on Haswell. Probably end of the year maybe early next year I think I'll get one of those to turn it into a dedicated HTPC. The current server/htpc will then be moved upstairs to serve as a dedicated server-only.

But I need to think this through, because a NUC doesn't provide DVD/Bluray drive (I could put one in an external case as USB or I need to commit to ripping all dvds and blurays) nor does it provide PCI expansion slots; my current HTPC has a Asus Xonar Essence ST with H6 addon (provides 8 channel analog outputs). I might just sell it I'm not sure yet.

Last but not least, I'm not sure what I'll do with the OS on the server. FreeNAS, unRAID and other things look cool to dabble with, but I'm not a big Linux fan, it prevents me from using my favorite software. I think I prefer a Windows server with a hardware RAID card (I'm considering an Areca 12x SAS/SATA card) so I can run JRiver server on there along with my other favorite Windows software - it feels safe, familiar and comfortable . I can think of a lot of things to do with it. The tower has room for 10 3.5" harddisks with the option to convert the 3 x 5.25" bays to 4 or 5 more 3.5" harddisks so it has plenty of potential for future storage expansion.

[Samson]

You may be interested in this article especially the "system 4" example build outlined by Chris
http://www.computeraudiophile.com/content/524-complete-guide-hifi-upnp-dlna-network-audio/

His info on CAPS servers is here
 http://www.computeraudiophile.com/section/c-p-s-489/

[InflatableMouse]

So have you decided on anything?

[Samson]

lol, no too busy and part of my "server" issues were solved by adding plex station to my Roku...but that's a different story.  I haven't solved the storage issue yet.

[jtwrace]

As someone who struggled with the decision, I'm glad I went with a NAS.  I was tired of daisy chaining drives to increase size and the clutter was tiring.  Take that and the fact that data on other devices wasn't backed up and it seemed like a good move.  I did look at 4 & 8 bay JBOD units but they didn't offer the flexibility that the NAS did.  

In the end, I went with a Synology 1813+, added 2GB RAM and went with Seagate 4TB NAS drives setup in SHR-2  http://forum.synology.com/wiki/index.php/What_is_Synology_Hybrid_RAID%3F  The unit is in a closet in the other room and (no more spinning drives in the audio room) and it just works.  I do have it on an APC UPS just in case the power goes out.  It is also plugged in via USB to the Synology so if it senses a loss of power, it shuts down safely.  

DSM 4.3 is fairly easy to use as long as you're willing to spend some time with it.  If you are, you'll be fine.  It's not hard but it's so user configurable that it can be a little overwhelming at first.  

Remember, a NAS is not a backup solution. You still need a backup.  My next step is a DX513 as my backup and probably a 4 bay unit for offsite storage.  CrashPlan is an option (for some) but with a library as large as mine it's not with crappy upload speeds. I did hardwire mine to the Apple Airport Extreme and the Mac Mini in the audio room but I do know some that are all wireless and it works fine but has a very slight delay at first when you start JRiver to play a track.  Mine is instant with the hardwire connection.  Something else to think about.  

It is an expensive upfront cost but once it's done, it'd done until drives need replacing.  Also, if you watch the prices they do change often.  I got the 1813+ for $999 and the drives for $199.  APC was $95.

Synology 1813+ http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00CRB53CU/ref=oh_details_o06_s00_i00?ie=UTF8&psc=1RAM http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0050X1OQ6/ref=oh_details_o00_s00_i00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

HD's http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00D1GYO4S/ref=oh_details_o02_s00_i00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

APC UPS http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0034KO59U/ref=oh_details_o05_s00_i00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Drive Dock http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B003UI62AG/ref=oh_details_o00_s00_i01?ie=UTF8&psc=1

DX513 Backup or Expansion http://www.amazon.com/Synology-Expansion-Increasing-Capacity-DX513/dp/B009EMFXGG/ref=wl_it_dp_o_pC_nS_nC?ie=UTF8&colid=1AI2WS8OZF1Y3&coliid=I4OUFW0ZLP8LJ

4 Bay unit option http://www.amazon.com/Mediasonic-HFR2-SU3S2-ProRaid-External-Enclosure/dp/B003YFHEAC/ref=wl_it_dp_o_pd_S_nC?ie=UTF8&colid=1AI2WS8OZF1Y3&coliid=I27GXWP7OQD2A0

[Samson]

Hi jtwrace,

many thanks for all the info and links. I keep on putting off this decision as it is involves one of those time consuming research projects.I am still leaning towards building a dedicated audio/vid server-htpc  running JRiver server and/or JRiver-DLNA server and atm Plex (to a roku player). The server/JRiver would do all the 'management' required.

Like yourself, I prefer if possible to hardwire the music storage to the audio pc for music playback over the HiFi (whereas I am happy to wirelessy stream video). If you hardwire the NAS it seems to defeat its purpose to some degree. Also as you say it is not backup so that still has to be addressed.

I will read the links you supplied and once again many thanks
David.