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[J-a-k-e]

So I've been playing around with the loudness function in JRiver and I'm really liking how it sounds once the reference volume is set properly. The thing I can't figure out though is how it integrates with volume leveling and adaptive volume plugins. I notice that the audio calibration is -10dB in the audio path when volume leveling is enabled or +2dB when adaptive volume is enabled. So I suppose I'm wondering is it just a matter or setting the 0dB reference level to 83dB via audio calibration and enabling loudness, or is there more to it than that?

[6233638]

Because Volume Leveling does not apply loudness, I think the best way to do this would be to go to: Tools > Advanced Tools > Audio Calibration > Create Files
Analyze the files, and then set your reference level using the 2ch narrow-band pink noise that is being run through the volume leveling DSP.

[mwillems]

Because Volume Leveling does not apply loudness, I think the best way to do this would be to go to: Tools > Advanced Tools > Audio Calibration > Create Files
Analyze the files, and then set your reference level using the 2ch narrow-band pink noise that is being run through the volume leveling DSP.

I think you want to run the calibration with volume leveling off, or else you're going to get a "double adjustment"  The goal of using the -20dBFS calibration clip is that the track is "pre-leveled", i.e. it's supposed to be 83 dB at the reference level already.  Using any other volume options will overcorrect I think (although JRiver might want to offer a calibration clip that matches the new -23LUFS volume leveling target)

Once you've done that, you know how loud volume leveled tracks will be on your system at the reference level (about 80dB baseline on average, -23LUFS is 3 dB lower than the calibration clip), to allow loudness to work correctly.  Because loudness doesn't adjust global voulme but just shapes the frequency response of the signal, I think it requires that the program material be leveled to align with the reference level (more or less) or it won't be applying the correct curves (i.e. I think it works "correctly" with volume leveled tracks, and only with volume leveled tracks).  

I'm open to correction if I've misunderstood, but OP, I'd recommend doing your calibration so that -20dBFS pink noise is 83dB on your system with volume leveling off. Then turning on volume leveling and loudness for playback.  I think adaptive volume is definitely not a good choice if you plan to use the loudness function.

[6233638]

I think you want to run the calibration with volume leveling off, or else you're going to get a "double adjustment"  The goal of using the -20dBFS calibration clip is that the track is "pre-leveled", i.e. it's supposed to be 83 dB at the reference level already.  Using any other volume options will overcorrect I think (although JRiver might want to offer a calibration clip that matches the new -23LUFS volume leveling target)

There shouldn't be a "double adjustment" happening when doing this. The reason I suggest using Volume Leveling on the narrow-band pink noise, is that it aligns the test to the -23 LUFS, which is the same level that other tracks are adjusted to.

This way your reference for all tracks is calibrated to -23 LUFS, and any volume changes you make are relative to that as far as Loudness is concerned.

I think adaptive volume is definitely not a good choice if you plan to use the loudness function.

I agree.

[J-a-k-e]

Thanks for the responses, I feel I've got a better understanding of how this is all supposed to work now. After some tinkering/testing I'm now certain that loudness Isn't being properly applied to volume leveled tracks,  it isn't compensating for the additional level adjustment when volume leveling is enabled.

To test this I used my headphones and my headphone amp connected via a usb dac as I didn't want to disturb the rest of the household with my stereo system.
1st - I disabled volume leveling and loudness then I set the computer + JRiver volume to full tand I used the audio calibration tool to set my headphone amp volume approximately to the reference level.
2nd - With the JRiver and system volumes still set to full I re-enabled volume leveling and loudness and played a track that has a volume level adjustment of -17dB.
3rd - I noticed that loudness doesn't appear in the audio path until I reduce JRiver's internal volume below 0dB but I did disable loudness for a period then re-enable it to confirm there wasn't any audible change.
4th - Just to confirm things, I disabled volume leveling and set JRiver's internal volume to -17db to match the volume leveling of the track from earlier. Loudness showed in the audio chain when it was enabled and there was a definite audible changed when I disabled it.

[6233638]

OK, it looks like there are some limitations in the Loudness implementation I was not aware of, and I had misunderstood the Internal Volume Reference Level.

I had been under the impression that Internal Volume Reference Level was set in decibels - so you were telling Media Center that 100% Volume = xx Reference Level (dB)
It appears that the reference level is fixed at 83 dB, and must be set using -20dB narrowband pink noise. The Reference Level option is to tell Media Center where the Internal Volume Control has to be set for your system to measure 83dB. In most cases you probably want this at 100%, unless you are using a power amplifier, or need to go louder.

That said, if you are intending on using Volume Leveling, I would still set your reference level using pink noise which has been analyzed and leveled. This way all tracks are being normalized to the 83dB reference level.
Another issue is that Loudness does not seem to take effect if you increase volume above 83dB - only when you reduce it below that level.


Volume Leveling should not apply Loudness. Volume Leveling is used to bring tracks in line with the reference level - those adjustments should not have Loudness applied.
Loudness should only be applied when you are reducing your playback level below 83 dB. This needs to be done via the Internal Volume Control, and not your amplifier - once you have calibrated your system to measure 83dB and enabled Loudness, you should not touch your amplifier's volume control.

[J-a-k-e]

Regarding reference levels, my stereo system actually runs off a poweramp which has the 0dB point set to -15dB or 70% of internal volume. Disabling volume leveling isn't really a big deal for me, I just use it as it's convenient when the music in my library plays at an average volume. However now you've got me wondering which option is best with loudness if I'm after accurate audio reproduction as obviously loudness with volume leveling has a much lesser effect overall. Also level adjustment after I analyze narrow stereo pink band noise is only -3.5dB which would suggest there's no difference in volume when compared to the mono audio calibration output when you consider 2x power output equals +3dB.

[6233638]

It would be more accurate to have the two enabled, because Volume Leveling adjusts the track's volume to reference levels, then any adjustments for loudness are made to a reference-level signal. (or close to it)
This why I suggest that you calibrate with pink noise that has been run through the analyzer and has Volume Leveling applied.

[mwillems]

Regarding reference levels, my stereo system actually runs off a poweramp which has the 0dB point set to -15dB or 70% of internal volume. Disabling volume leveling isn't really a big deal for me, I just use it as it's convenient when the music in my library plays at an average volume. However now you've got me wondering which option is best with loudness if I'm after accurate audio reproduction as obviously loudness with volume leveling has a much lesser effect overall. Also level adjustment after I analyze narrow stereo pink band noise is only -3.5dB which would suggest there's no difference in volume when compared to the mono audio calibration output when you consider 2x power output equals +3dB.

6233638 is correct, loudness is designed to provide correction down from an 83 dB reference point.  If you don't re-center the recording to near that reference level (using volume leveling) you're going to get a much too strong loudness curve.

[mojave]

I recommend using Audio Calibration to just play the pink noise instead of creating the files. It is much easier. Also, because the pink noise for volume calibration is bandwidth limited and its entire bandwidth is supposed to be played at once, audio analysis won't return the correct R128 adjustment. Just calibrate using the volume calibration mode in Audio Calibration to 83 dB and then use loudness and volume leveling on your music/movies.

[Matt]

Just to offer my two cents:

Using Tools > Advanced Tools > Audio Calibration > Volume calibration is the best system for setting levels (as mojave said).  Be sure to turn off Volume Leveling and Adaptive Volume during calibration (this should probably happen automatically someday).

Using Volume Leveling will make Loudness work better (as 6233638 said).  This is a neat benefit of the new R128 volume leveling system that I hadn't thought of before.

[mwillems]

Just to offer my two cents:

Using Tools > Advanced Tools > Audio Calibration > Volume calibration is the best system for setting levels (as mojave said).  Be sure to turn off Volume Leveling and Adaptive Volume during calibration (this should probably happen automatically someday).

Using Volume Leveling will make Loudness work better (as 6233638 said).  This is a neat benefit of the new R128 volume leveling system that I hadn't thought of before.

Glad to have confirmation, straight from the source    

Matt, any thoughts on what to do about the 3 dB delta between the calibration target (83dB at -20dBFS) and the new volume leveling target (-23 LUFS or 80dB on a calibrated system), and the effect of that delta on Loudness?  Based on the ISO charts 3 dB doesn't look like it would be a huge difference, but I'm curious.

[6233638]

any thoughts on what to do about the 3 dB delta between the calibration target (83dB at -20dBFS) and the new volume leveling target (-23 LUFS or 80dB on a calibrated system), and the effect of that delta on Loudness?  Based on the ISO charts 3 dB doesn't look like it would be a huge difference, but I'm curious.

This is why I was recommending creating the files and analyzing them. The stereo track is played back at -2.8 dB with Volume Leveling enabled, which brings them closer to the R128 reference of 80 dB. I suppose you could always run a manual -3dB parametric EQ instead.

[mwillems]

This is why I was recommending creating the files and analyzing them. The stereo track is played back at -2.8 dB with Volume Leveling enabled, which brings them closer to the R128 reference of 80 dB. I suppose you could always run a manual -3dB parametric EQ instead.

I think your PEQ idea is probably the best/easiest way to rationalize it, but for playback that should read "+3 dB" (rather than -3 dB) to bring the volume leveling target (80 dB) up to the reference level (83 dB).  EDIT: Unless you just mean in the context of calibration, in which case -3 dB on the pink noise clip would line it up.

[6233638]

EDIT: Unless you just mean in the context of calibration, in which case -3 dB on the pink noise clip would line it up.

I did; use a −3dB PEQ filter for calibration, then remove it for playback.