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Author Topic: Please make Ignore articles Language Specific  (Read 6227 times)

connersw

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Please make Ignore articles Language Specific
« on: November 28, 2013, 10:36:14 am »

In 19.0.70: NEW: The option to move articles, ignore articles, etc. uses a list that includes English, Spanish, German, and French articles.

This change seriously messes up sorting in your native language.  Can this please be changed to reflect your native language with an option to turn on additional languages? 

Please see FastKayak's earlier post that appears to have been lost in the mix of the release:

Quote from: FastKayak
Can this feature be turned off?

NEW: The option to move articles, ignore articles, etc. uses a list that includes English, Spanish, German, and French articles.


I have the James Bond film "Die Another Day".  It sorts wrong now in my movie list. I assume the change in sorting is connected to the above new feature in 19.70

I get that Das Boot is The Boot in German.  If I think of my German language class 45 years ago I can translate Die to The and figure out the sorting.  Of course at my age that is heavy lifting!  I assume Les Miserables is The Miserables in French.  Since I'm not a French speaker the movie now seems sorted wrong too.  No one in my household will find these movies with the new system!

Again, can this feature be disabled or controlled?

Thanks!
FastKayak / Larry

I just spent 10-minutes trying to figure out what happened to my Das Racist albums.
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FastKayak

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Re: Please make Ignore articles Language Specific
« Reply #1 on: November 28, 2013, 10:52:13 am »

We'll let me +1 this.  Oh, that's right I already did that once!   ;D

Yeah I would say this is a cool new facility for a lot of non-USA customers. But I would hook it to the selected language so everyone gets the list that makes the most sense for them. 

FastKayak / Larry
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AndrewFG

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Re: Please make Ignore articles Language Specific
« Reply #2 on: November 28, 2013, 11:55:14 am »

But I would hook it to the selected language so everyone gets the list that makes the most sense for them.  

No. No. Please do not hook it to the language of the user!! (I have English user language but I want to exclude definite articles in other languages "Das Reingold", "Les Pecheurs du Perles", "La Traviata", etc.)

My suggestion is that the user be allowed to enter their own customised comma delimited list of definite articles to be excluded. My list would be [A, The, Der, Die, Das, Ein, Eine, Le, La, Les, Un, Une, Il, El, Los, ...] and indeed I would personally also include the title "Sir" (Sir Paul McCartney) in this list.

Perhaps to make it easier for non experts, it could be done so that on first installation of MC it pre-fills the comma delimited list only with those articles that are specific to the chosen user language. But once you have customised the list, any subsequent updates should not mess with that list.

PS Here is a work-around tip for the OP concerning his "Das Racist" albums: If you write the album name with a non breaking space character (Unicode $A0) rather than a regular space (Unicode $20) then I think that MC will probably not interpret that album name as having a German Das definite article prefix. EDIT: you can enter a non breaking space on a Windows keyboard by holding down ALT and typing 0160 on the number pad...

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FastKayak

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Re: Please make Ignore articles Language Specific
« Reply #3 on: November 28, 2013, 06:44:26 pm »

A user definable list would be fine.  Anything that provides better refinement/control would be great.

FastKayak / Larry. 
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fitbrit

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Re: Please make Ignore articles Language Specific
« Reply #4 on: November 28, 2013, 09:50:03 pm »

User definable is fine by me. PS Das Boot = The boat.
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InflatableMouse

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Re: Please make Ignore articles Language Specific
« Reply #5 on: November 29, 2013, 01:53:29 am »

My suggestion is that the user be allowed to enter their own customised comma delimited list of definite articles to be excluded. My list would be [A, The, Der, Die, Das, Ein, Eine, Le, La, Les, Un, Une, Il, El, Los, ...] and indeed I would personally also include the title "Sir" (Sir Paul McCartney) in this list.

But wouldn't that sort "Die Hard" or "Die Another Day" incorrectly too?
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AndrewFG

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Re: Please make Ignore articles Language Specific
« Reply #6 on: November 29, 2013, 03:28:43 am »

But wouldn't that sort "Die Hard" or "Die Another Day" incorrectly too?

Yes. And there are two solutions:

  • Beginners:
    Decide if on balance you prefer "Die Hard" to sort under D, or "Die Fledermaus" to sort under F, and consequently exclude/include Die in your article list.
  • Advanced users:
    Type a non breaking space (code A0 hex / 160 decimal) between Die Hard, and a regular space (code 20 hex / 32 decimal) between Die Fledermaus.

Nota Bene:  as mentioned in my prior post, in Windows you type a non breaking space by holding down ALT and typing 0160 (the decimal character code) on the numeric keypad.

EDIT: and by the way the above is how they did it in the Squeezebox Server (aka Logitech Media Server) [R.I.P.]

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InflatableMouse

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Re: Please make Ignore articles Language Specific
« Reply #7 on: November 29, 2013, 05:07:51 am »

I have possibly another solution but it requires some work.

I can't check right now but wasn't there a field for the language or something similar for movies and series?

With that MC could determine whether "Die" should be treated as an article or not.

If that field is not present, it could be created. I think the info can be pulled from TMDB or TheTVDB and MC would need some logic to process it.

I think that way it would be fool proof.
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gappie

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Re: Please make Ignore articles Language Specific
« Reply #8 on: November 29, 2013, 05:27:05 am »

Yes. And there are two solutions:

  • Beginners:
    Decide if on balance you prefer "Die Hard" to sort under D, or "Die Fledermaus" to sort under F, and consequently exclude/include Die in your article list.
  • Advanced users:
    Type a non breaking space (code A0 hex / 160 decimal) between Die Hard, and a regular space (code 20 hex / 32 decimal) between Die Fledermaus.

Nota Bene:  as mentioned in my prior post, in Windows you type a non breaking space by holding down ALT and typing 0160 (the decimal character code) on the numeric keypad.

EDIT: and by the way the above is how they did it in the Squeezebox Server (aka Logitech Media Server) [R.I.P.]
Thank you very much... alt 0160 works nicely...

im very happy with this change.. i hope one we can add our own articles.

 :)
gab
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AndrewFG

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Re: Please make Ignore articles Language Specific
« Reply #9 on: November 29, 2013, 06:31:52 am »

I have possibly another solution but it requires some work.

I can't check right now but wasn't there a field for the language or something similar for movies and series?

With that MC could determine whether "Die" should be treated as an article or not.

If that field is not present, it could be created. I think the info can be pulled from TMDB or TheTVDB and MC would need some logic to process it.

I think that way it would be fool proof.

Hmm -- "fool proof" -- I don't imagine there could be any problems in having a language tag locally within the MC database; but I for one want to have all my tags synched into the actual media files themselves (just in case MC loses it); so we would have to check if all current media tagging schemes (ID3v2, Flac Tags, MPEG4, etc.) do indeed support a language tag; because if they don't then every time that you reloaded the MC library, it would have to presume that in the absence of such a tag in the media file itself, the default language is English; and that would be precisely such an unfriendly act towards non English users that we are presently seeking to eliminate...

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connersw

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Re: Please make Ignore articles Language Specific
« Reply #10 on: November 29, 2013, 07:18:31 am »

I'm sorry, but this is where the power of MC gets in the way of itself.  Things are made more complicated and technical than they need to be, when simplicity should be the first order.

This is not an unfriendly act towards non-English users.  If your language is set to English, you would expect that the default sorting would be based on English grammar rules.  Simple.   Likewise, if you language is set to German, it sorts based on German articles. 

I like the idea of making the article list editable or having the ability to check boxes to turn on additional language articles.  However; re-tagging files, or even worse, remembering to type in spaces with a special ASCII character for certain leading words is just unnecessary complexity.  Being user friendly should be the first consideration. 
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gappie

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Re: Please make Ignore articles Language Specific
« Reply #11 on: November 29, 2013, 07:44:12 am »

I'm sorry, but this is where the power of MC gets in the way of itself.  Things are made more complicated and technical than they need to be, when simplicity should be the first order.

This is not an unfriendly act towards non-English users.  If your language is set to English, you would expect that the default sorting would be based on English grammar rules.  Simple.   Likewise, if you language is set to German, it sorts based on German articles. 

I like the idea of making the article list editable or having the ability to check boxes to turn on additional language articles.  However; re-tagging files, or even worse, remembering to type in spaces with a special ASCII character for certain leading words is just unnecessary complexity.  Being user friendly should be the first consideration. 
ofcourse when the user can make its own list, thats asolution. unlike in germany (were i live) and the usa, there are countries where most film titles are not translated to the native language. so its normal for me to have all those titles in the original language between each other, unchecking german, for instance, would not help me.So

die ehe der maria braun
die another day.

i like it that the first one is now under the letter e. with the alt 0160 i can let the second one sort under the letter d. i think that is nice..

ive been going through my movie files and actually only found 2 files that got sorted 'wrong' (but im not a fan of movies about dying ;) ). and im sure i wil find a few in my music files, but messedup, not really.

now when i could add the dutch articles, so that they also can be sorted right ..  ;D

 :)
gab
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AndrewFG

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Re: Please make Ignore articles Language Specific
« Reply #12 on: November 29, 2013, 08:44:33 am »

I'm sorry, but this is where the power of MC gets in the way of itself.  Things are made more complicated and technical than they need to be, when simplicity should be the first order.

This is not an unfriendly act towards non-English users.  If your language is set to English, you would expect that the default sorting would be based on English grammar rules.  Simple.   Likewise, if you language is set to German, it sorts based on German articles.  

I like the idea of making the article list editable or having the ability to check boxes to turn on additional language articles.  However; re-tagging files, or even worse, remembering to type in spaces with a special ASCII character for certain leading words is just unnecessary complexity.  Being user friendly should be the first consideration.  

Hey connersw, please don't get me wrong. I am on your side. Really. Actually I am not trying to advocate anything more complicated for the average user. To be specific, my proposal is as follows:

Beginner Level: When you install MC for the first time, it creates somewhere a list of prefix words that is for the first time filled with the list of definite articles appropriate to the language that the user selects. I think probably the initial list would normally also include the English articles The and A. (This is an "automatic install and forget" process).

Intermediate Level: If you want to modify the list of prefix words, then somewhere in MC Options there is an edit box where you can add or delete words to/from the list. Probably this edit box shall also have a "Return to the defaults for my language" button. (This is a "self explanatory options dialog" process).

Advanced Level: If you have so modified the list of prefix words, and you are troubled by schizophrenic cases like Die Fledermaus & Die Hard, then you can solve them by editing the tags to use a regular space in the first case, and a non breaking space in the second. (This is admittedly a "nerdy process requiring a Wiki entry to explain it", but you get this possibility anyway for free, and there is no pressure on you to use it.)



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glynor

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Re: Please make Ignore articles Language Specific
« Reply #13 on: November 29, 2013, 09:14:07 pm »

This is not an unfriendly act towards non-English users.  If your language is set to English, you would expect that the default sorting would be based on English grammar rules.  Simple.   Likewise, if you language is set to German, it sorts based on German articles. 

+1
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kensn

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Re: Please make Ignore articles Language Specific
« Reply #14 on: November 29, 2013, 10:48:18 pm »

+ 1
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Otello

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Re: Please make Ignore articles Language Specific
« Reply #15 on: November 30, 2013, 09:02:14 pm »

Well, I asked for this function long time ago; for me it's a good reason to upgrade to v.19, BUT it must work (i.e.: you'd be able to edit the list).

For the record, I have now my Italian records starting with the feminine plural article ("le", but JR thinks it the french masculine singular...) sorted without the leading article, BUT, if I have a masculine, no matter if singular or plural ("il" and "i")... :-(

Please, stop with this easy-for-beginners paranoia, let's be serious... :-D

BTW, I really don't see the point of binding to the installed Language, for instance I use the English version and I listen music from all the countries.

Ciao
Marco
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Otello

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Re: Please make Ignore articles Language Specific
« Reply #16 on: November 30, 2013, 09:13:57 pm »

P.S. The Italian language has 6 articles: il, lo, le, i, gli, le.

 :-*
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AndrewFG

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Re: Please make Ignore articles Language Specific
« Reply #17 on: December 01, 2013, 08:55:36 am »

Please, stop with this easy-for-beginners paranoia, let's be serious... :-D
BTW, I really don't see the point of binding to the installed Language, for instance I use the English version and I listen music from all the countries.

+1

I too use the English version. And I speak English, German and French. And I understand enough of Italian and Spanish to know what a definite article is... - and also to order a good meal :)

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glynor

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Re: Please make Ignore articles Language Specific
« Reply #18 on: December 01, 2013, 09:06:18 am »

I didn't really follow this closely before... And I do, somewhat, understand where the pro-multi-language-article users are coming from but...

Yesterday, my wife wanted to watch Les Misérables and couldn't find it because it was filed under M and not L.  Explaining that she has to know and think about all the different articles in all the different languages would not be an acceptable answer.

I think the easiest solution is to:

1. Follow the user's installed language, or English if the language is set to one you don't directly support.
2. Provide a text box field in Options where you can type in a comma delimited list of additional articles to ignore.

In the end, I don't care what the solution is, but the WAF for this current setup is very low.  It cannot stand.
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AndrewFG

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Re: Please make Ignore articles Language Specific
« Reply #19 on: December 02, 2013, 03:23:32 am »

I think the easiest solution is to:
1. Follow the user's installed language, or English if the language is set to one you don't directly support.
2. Provide a text box field in Options where you can type in a comma delimited list of additional articles to ignore.

If you read my earlier posts, you will see that this is exactly what I have been suggesting all along.


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glynor

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Re: Please make Ignore articles Language Specific
« Reply #20 on: December 02, 2013, 10:03:23 am »

If you read my earlier posts, you will see that this is exactly what I have been suggesting all along.

I did.  I thought it was a bit confused though, and was trying to simplify the suggestion. My concerns over the discussions above were mostly around this kind of thing:

Beginner Level: When you install MC for the first time, it creates somewhere a list of prefix words that is for the first time filled with the list of definite articles appropriate to the language that the user selects. I think probably the initial list would normally also include the English articles The and A. (This is an "automatic install and forget" process).

Intermediate Level: If you want to modify the list of prefix words, then somewhere in MC Options there is an edit box where you can add or delete words to/from the list. Probably this edit box shall also have a "Return to the defaults for my language" button. (This is a "self explanatory options dialog" process).

Advanced Level: If you have so modified the list of prefix words, and you are troubled by schizophrenic cases like Die Fledermaus & Die Hard, then you can solve them by editing the tags to use a regular space in the first case, and a non breaking space in the second. (This is admittedly a "nerdy process requiring a Wiki entry to explain it", but you get this possibility anyway for free, and there is no pressure on you to use it.)

This stuff.  I don't think it needs to be anywhere near so complex.  All you need are those two things:

1. If Ignore Articles is enabled, it uses your installed language, and only your installed language, or English if it doesn't have "pre-set" lists for your language (Estonian or whatever).  It doesn't actually show you this list, or let you edit it, it just works like it does now (on/off).  I'd guess that for more than 90% of users, this will be all that is needed.

2. If you want to extend this list (so, to include Italian articles even though you have English selected as your language), then there is an "Also Ignore" box where you can add comma-delimited additions to the default by-language list.

I think that gets you to 98% of possible use-cases, and you don't need to care about the other edge-cases.

It would have the limitation that there would be no way to exclude articles from the default-language list, other than to turn the whole thing off, but that's what I'm calling an extreme edge-case.  The benefit is that you do not need to have any of the "reset to defaults" UI glop though.  The comma-delimited list would only be additive to what happens automatically by default (similar to how it worked before this change, but language-specific where possible).  To "reset" it, you'd just empty it.

That would be, IMHO, much more easily grepped by your average user, and less likely to get badly broken.  Plus, it gives you the flexibility to add whatever articles you'd like to the list (Mr, Mrs, Sir, Das, Les, etc, etc, etc).
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FastKayak

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Re: Please make Ignore articles Language Specific
« Reply #21 on: December 02, 2013, 12:59:20 pm »

There is only one thing missing in this conversation.... JRiver/Matt saying "look for improvements in the next public build"

Matt??

FastKayak / Larry
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AndrewFG

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Re: Please make Ignore articles Language Specific
« Reply #22 on: December 02, 2013, 03:02:46 pm »

This stuff.  I don't think it needs to be anywhere near so complex.  All you need are those two things:

Yes. YES. Indeed !! -- That IS exactly what I have been saying...   (Please, please, please read it carefully...)

{ Ok. And by the way, (for the real nerds), if you are really worked up about sorting Die Fledermaus according to a different rulebook than Die Hard... all I am saying is that -- YES -- indeed you get a free additional third option (without one single gram of additional development work by Matt), to bend the rules, (repeat: if you are a REAL nerd), by typing 0x20 as the delimiter in one case, and 0xA0 in the other case. But only, ONLY, ONLY, ONLY if you want to... }





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glynor

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Re: Please make Ignore articles Language Specific
« Reply #23 on: December 02, 2013, 05:45:20 pm »

Yes. YES. Indeed

I thought it was a bit confused though

Then it isn't confused anymore.  ;D
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AndrewFG

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Re: Please make Ignore articles Language Specific
« Reply #24 on: December 03, 2013, 01:36:19 am »

Then it isn't confused anymore.  ;D

Sigh...
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Matt

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Re: Please make Ignore articles Language Specific
« Reply #25 on: December 03, 2013, 05:12:35 pm »

Next build:
NEW: The list of articles in the program is user configurable in Options > Tree & View > Sorting (semi-colon delimited list).
NEW: Exceptions to articles can be added by starting an entry with - (example: ...;les;-les paul;... so that Les Pecheurs de Perle > P and Les Paul > L).

The list of articles is configured in Sorting, but it's also used for library tools that move articles to and from the beginning of the string.
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glynor

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Re: Please make Ignore articles Language Specific
« Reply #26 on: December 03, 2013, 05:42:58 pm »

Next build:
NEW: The list of articles in the program is user configurable in Options > Tree & View > Sorting (semi-colon delimited list).
NEW: Exceptions to articles can be added by starting an entry with - (example: ...;les;-les paul;... so that Les Pecheurs de Perle > P and Les Paul > L).

The list of articles is configured in Sorting, but it's also used for library tools that move articles to and from the beginning of the string.

Awesome.  I even thought to mention the -prefix thing, but didn't because it was asking too much.  That's pretty much perfect, I think.
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AndrewFG

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Re: Please make Ignore articles Language Specific
« Reply #27 on: December 04, 2013, 02:43:31 am »

That's pretty much perfect, I think.

+1

I even thought to mention the -prefix thing, but didn't because it was asking too much.

Yes. IMHO the minus exclusion is just plain brilliant.
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connersw

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Re: Please make Ignore articles Language Specific
« Reply #28 on: December 04, 2013, 08:20:30 am »

Awesome Matt.  Thank you for the fix.
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vagskal

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Re: Please make Ignore articles Language Specific
« Reply #29 on: December 04, 2013, 01:35:47 pm »

Would it be possible to also ignore intital
';";(;[;...;*

Like in David Bowie's "Heroes", *NSYNC, ...And You Will Know Us by the Trail of Dead, etc.
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BernhardS

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Re: Please make Ignore articles Language Specific
« Reply #30 on: December 08, 2013, 08:12:04 am »

Would it be possible to also ignore intital
';";(;[;...;*

Like in David Bowie's "Heroes", *NSYNC, ...And You Will Know Us by the Trail of Dead, etc.

+1
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glynor

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Re: Please make Ignore articles Language Specific
« Reply #31 on: December 08, 2013, 09:13:31 am »

Would it be possible to also ignore intital
';";(;[;...;*

Like in David Bowie's "Heroes", *NSYNC, ...And You Will Know Us by the Trail of Dead, etc.

I don't know how I feel about this.   :-\
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BernhardS

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Re: Please make Ignore articles Language Specific
« Reply #32 on: December 08, 2013, 11:11:13 am »

I don't know how I feel about this.   :-\

For me it's usefull for random smartlists based on genre or ratings. Some tracks are disproportionately often represent because the first letters are rarely e.g. The 'In' Crowd - Bryan Ferry or (Come Away) Melinda - UFO
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Matt

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Re: Please make Ignore articles Language Specific
« Reply #33 on: December 08, 2013, 11:33:07 am »

I can understand wanting to ignore special characters like !@#$^*"... but this won't be done as part of the article engine.

If we think special characters are articles, then we'll also think it's reasonable to transpose *NSYNC to NSYNC, *.

So maybe for v20 we'll add a special character handler to allow ignoring them instead of sorting them first.
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BernhardS

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Re: Please make Ignore articles Language Specific
« Reply #34 on: December 08, 2013, 12:53:12 pm »


So maybe for v20 ......

... I can wait for this few days ...  javascript:void(0)
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I will explain that whenever I want a thing, and Mrs. McWilliams wants another thing, and we decide upon the thing that Mrs. McWilliams wants—as we always do—she calls that a compromise

THE McWILLIAMSES AND THE BURGLAR ALARM  (Mark Twain)

BernhardS

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Re: Please make Ignore articles Language Specific
« Reply #35 on: December 09, 2013, 09:56:17 am »

I can understand wanting to ignore special characters like !@#$^*"... but this won't be done as part of the article engine.

If we think special characters are articles, then we'll also think it's reasonable to transpose *NSYNC to NSYNC, *.

So maybe for v20 we'll add a special character handler to allow ignoring them instead of sorting them first.

... I configured left pranthesis (and also the other special characters) to ignore and inserted a space after it in the track name - so it works
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I will explain that whenever I want a thing, and Mrs. McWilliams wants another thing, and we decide upon the thing that Mrs. McWilliams wants—as we always do—she calls that a compromise

THE McWILLIAMSES AND THE BURGLAR ALARM  (Mark Twain)

vagskal

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Re: Please make Ignore articles Language Specific
« Reply #36 on: December 09, 2013, 05:20:58 pm »

I can understand wanting to ignore special characters like !@#$^*"... but this won't be done as part of the article engine.

If we think special characters are articles, then we'll also think it's reasonable to transpose *NSYNC to NSYNC, *.

So maybe for v20 we'll add a special character handler to allow ignoring them instead of sorting them first.

Thanks for considering it.
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AndrewFG

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Re: Please make Ignore articles Language Specific
« Reply #37 on: December 10, 2013, 02:45:58 am »

I can understand wanting to ignore special characters like !@#$^*"... but this won't be done as part of the article engine.

If we think special characters are articles, then we'll also think it's reasonable to transpose *NSYNC to NSYNC, *.

I agree that you should not mix up the two concepts (articles vs. special characters).

Some tagging schemes provide extra tags so you can enter Artist="Ludwig van Beethoven" and ArtistSort="Beethoven, Ludwig van" -- whereby Artist is displayed in the UI and ArtistSort is used by the sorting machine. So perhaps you could use this concept to solve the special character issue?

But I don't recall if the ArtistSort tag has equivalents for AlbumSort and TrackSort though...

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