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[6233638]

To try and troubleshoot a problem I've been having recently, I picked a random old build of Media Center - 67.
 
I guess this was one of the builds shortly after the DST fix was implemented, because Media Center started updating 3000 files in my library.
 
EDIT After trying this again, it's actually more like 6000 files - I did not run auto-import immediately last time. That's something else I would like to see addressed - Media Center never informs you of what it's doing in the background.

 
So I went back to the latest build and tried to restore a backup, only to find that the most recent backup I have was two days ago.
 
So not much has been lost, but this is not the first time it's happened, and it's still a nuisance to deal with.
 
Could you please change the backup scheme to make daily backups of the library, along with weekly, monthly, and yearly backups.
 
Looking through my backup folder, it seems sporadic at best:
 
11/03
11/05
11/08
11/10
11/12
11/15
11/17
11/19
11/21
11/24
11/26
11/28
11/30
12/05
12/08
12/10
 
I have no need for discrete backups going back a whole month. There are 16 of these, so I think a better scheme would be 7 (or 14?) daily backups, and 4 weekly backups. You have a similar number of files, but are far less likely to lose data.

[InflatableMouse]

You can make a scheduled task to create a backup with core commands.

[6233638]

You can make a scheduled task to create a backup with core commands.

Rather than working around it, which only a handful of people will do, it would benefit all users if the changes were made to the way that Media Center handles backups instead.

[InflatableMouse]

I think the default backup scheme which was changed only a couple of months ago is sufficient for the vast majority of users. For those for whom this is not sufficient Matt introduced the core command to make backups yourself.

Instead of looking at this as a work around for something that is not functioning properly, see it as something that does a basic task sufficiently, which you can complement with the tools given if you feel its not enough.

[6233638]

Well I can't speak for anyone else, but I generally import things into my library in batches - I'll have some free time and rip 5-10 Blu-rays at once, or a handful of CDs etc.
 
The latest backup being 2-3 days ago is very likely to have missed the most recent imports, and I don't know why I would want to go back to a specific day three weeks ago.
 
Daily backups would minimize data loss, and if you include weekly backups, that should be more useful to the average person than 16 backups made at random points over the last month.
 
 
I could be mistaken, but I don't think manually scheduled backups are automatically cleaned up by Media Center either.

[JimH]

You can make a backup any time you want to.  It's under the File/Library menu.

[6233638]

You can make a backup any time you want to.  It's under the File/Library menu.

It's not something anyone should have to think about.

[mojave]

A daily backup should be made every three days. 

A monthly is made once a month.

There's also provisions for cleaning up old backups, but I'm not sure the exact rules.

I checked my backups and have a monthly backup (August-December) and then "daily" backups every 2-3 days. I don't have any daily backups older than December so old backups have been cleaned up.

Daily backups would minimize data loss, and if you include weekly backups, that should be more useful to the average person than 16 backups made at random points over the last month.

I agree about daily backups. Having 16 backups over the past month can be helpful if your child messed some stuff up and you don't notice right away.

[6233638]

I checked my backups and have a monthly backup (August-December) and then "daily" backups every 2-3 days. I don't have any daily backups older than December so old backups have been cleaned up.

Yes, the automatic backups get cleaned up, but I don't think manually created/scheduled ones will.
 

I agree about daily backups. Having 16 backups over the past month can be helpful if your child messed some stuff up and you don't notice right away.

Well that's why I suggested 7-14 daily backups and consolidated weekly backups.
 
Perhaps the better solution would be 7 daily ones and one every 3 days for the previous three weeks, but that seems like overkill to me. Weekly ones seem like they would be sufficient for those purposes.
 
The main thing is that you should always be able to go back to a backup from the previous day without having to think about it. A lot can happen in three days.

[glynor]

I have no need for discrete backups going back a whole month. There are 16 of these, so I think a better scheme would be 7 (or 14?) daily backups, and 4 weekly backups. You have a similar number of files, but are far less likely to lose data.

I agree about daily backups. Having 16 backups over the past month can be helpful if your child messed some stuff up and you don't notice right away.

I agree generally.

I don't know if daily is absolutely required, but three days feels a bit long.  I'd say it should probably be closer to 1-2 days.  I do, however, like having the individual backups preserved back a ways, because of the exact scenario mojave points out.  Backups aren't typically for undoing something that just happened.  If so, you really only need "last" and maybe the one before that.  It is for when you didn't realize something got hosed 2 weeks ago.

I think if the automatic scheme was increased to either daily, or every other day, and the cleanup rules were tightened up a bit, it would probably help.  I don't have detailed observations handy, but I have noticed that the cleanup routine seems to "tick over" quickly at month boundaries, which is part of the trouble.  If you happen to have trouble near the beginning of a month, when the cleanup just "ran", then you can't go back anywhere near as easily.

So, something along the lines of a cleanup routine that 6233638 suggests might help.

I don't really need backups from 3 months ago (because I'd kill myself if I had to go back that far), but if I realize something went sideways 3 weeks ago, I don't want to have to jump back 1-2 "extra" weeks beyond where the trouble occurred because MC had cleaned up the automatic backups and only preserved the monthlies.

In my case, though, I don't really have a serious problem because I run full backups of my system and user drives two times a week, preserving incremental changes a ways back (Macrium FTW).  This provides an extra location to check if I need to restore a backup and I need more incremental access, I can just pull additional automatic backups out of my Macrium images.

[glynor]

Yes, the automatic backups get cleaned up, but I don't think manually created/scheduled ones will.

I really need to test this.

I hope that scheduled, silent backups (via the new command line option) are treated basically just like automatic ones as far as cleanup is concerned.  But I don't know, as I haven't gotten around to playing with them yet.

[6233638]

In my case, though, I don't really have a serious problem because I run full backups of my system and user drives two times a week, preserving incremental changes a ways back (Macrium FTW).  This provides an extra location to check if I need to restore a backup and I need more incremental access, I can just pull additional automatic backups out of my Macrium images.

I really need to set up a full system backup. I currently have all my media and documents being backed up regularly, but not the system drive.
 
I got excited for a minute, as I thought I had included Media Center's library in that backup, but I must not have set that up. It will be now though, and I'll schedule a full OS drive backup now too.
 
Still, if Media Center is creating backups, I think it should at least be making them daily.

[Hendrik]

I put it on my list of things to checkout, but that means i first need to understand how it works right now before i accept suggestions on how to improve it.
But i recognize that backup is an important topic, and it should rather create one too many instead of leaving you with data lost.

[6233638]

Thanks Hendrik

[mojave]

I put it on my list of things to checkout, but that means i first need to understand how it works right now before i accept suggestions on how to improve it.
But i recognize that backup is an important topic, and it should rather create one too many instead of leaving you with data lost.

Here's a backup of that post. 

[MrC]

I've never understood why Backups have not been based on a preference for frequency and start time.  This is critical to align with filesystem backups, which are typically configured to fire on a defined schedule.  Allowing users to set the frequency and start time would ensure they can have better control of this important feature.  Having a UI-based preference with smart defaults also serves as a form of feature advertisement and documentation - "Hey, this feature exists, and you can use / customize it."

[Vocalpoint]

Allowing users to set the frequency and start time would ensure they can have better control of this important feature.  Having a UI-based preference with smart defaults also serves as a form of feature advertisement and documentation - "Hey, this feature exists, and you can use / customize it."

+1. I backup manually after each and every session where new material is added (or removed) from the main library. Sometimes 8 or 10 times a day - but it would be great to establish a schedule and be confident that MC is taking regular backups - according to a schedule that makes sense to me.

VP

[glynor]

I really need to set up a full system backup.

Seriously, download Macrium Reflect and try it.

I resisted for so long because backup software is usually such a pain to set up and manage.  It wasn't until the fourth or fifth time I discovered that Acronis hadn't been doing what it was supposed to be doing (for months), again, that I finally tried it.

I couldn't believe it when, seriously, 30 min later I had the system set up with the exact incremental scheme I wanted.  It has great command line options for scripting, if you need it, but you probably don't.  Unlike seemingly everything else, it actually just uses (gasp) the built in Windows task scheduler (with easy to understand CLI options) to schedule backups.  The "jobs" you make are just simple XML documents.

And it can live image Windows.  I thought something was broken the first time I did a system disk clone and it didn't make me reboot and let me kept using the system.  But it isn't broken.  All the other ones are just terrible.

Reflect is so choice.  If you have the means, I highly recommend picking one up.

[Vocalpoint]

Seriously, download Macrium Reflect and try it.

Some of the best money I have ever spent. Reflect totally rocks.

B

[6233638]

Seriously, download Macrium Reflect and try it.

I already have Acronis running, and to my surprise, it only took about three minutes to do a full backup of my SSD.
 
I just didn't have a full OS drive backup because it's so rare that I do have problems with the boot drive, and if I do, I normally take it as an opportunity to do a clean install.
 

I resisted for so long because backup software is usually such a pain to set up and manage.  It wasn't until the fourth or fifth time I discovered that Acronis hadn't been doing what it was supposed to be doing (for months), again, that I finally tried it.

Fortunately, I have not had that problem.

[MusicBringer]

+1. I backup manually after each and every session where new material is added (or removed) from the main library. Sometimes 8 or 10 times a day.

I'm the same. I need to remember to do backup manually after each and every session.
I require an option to set auto -backups throughout the day. Please.

[glynor]

Fortunately, I have not had that problem.

That's good.

I had never-ending trouble getting it to properly rotate the backups.  My backup drive (which was three times the size of the drives it was supposed to be backing up) would constantly fill up, and then Acronis would just get stuck.  And I also couldn't get it to notify me of the error states reliably.

I also found that it caused some performance problems, since it runs a bunch of resident stuff.  Never too bad, but annoying.  And, then I discovered a few corrupted backups when I went to do a restore.  Reflect was really like a breath of fresh air.

I loved Acronis back before they started making the home editions, and perhaps I would have had better luck had I stuck with the Pro versions, but the 2010-2011 Home editions were a huge PITA for me.

[glynor]

I require an option to set auto -backups throughout the day. Please.

You can do this now.  There's a silent option now:
http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=82654.0

You're welcome.   

[Vocalpoint]

You can do this now.  There's a silent option now:
http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=82654.0 You're welcome.   

Too bad I cannot read about it Sounds good.

"The topic or board you are looking for appears to be either missing or off limits to you. "

Cheers,

VP

[JimH]

Try it again.

[Matt]

I think it's great the program makes day-based and month-based backups, cleans them up automatically, and even let's me put them on another drive.  For me, the behavior is useful, reasonable, and doesn't call for configuration.

Advanced users may have special needs.  They can manually backup or even automate backups with a little scripting.  I would expect this to be a small percentage of users and no option (that isn't terribly complex) could cover everything they might want.

(ps. Sorry if I'm in too much of a glass-half-full mood this morning.  It finally got above 0 Fahrenheit here.)

[csimon]

If you have a regular system-wide backup in place, e.g. daily, then maybe an hourly MC backup is appropriate because you've then got 24 hourly backups backed up every day!  In that respect, Mc doing its own backup regime isn't really important, or is it that people are looking for covenience in restoring a library quickly within MC rather than having to go to a backup archive?

[Vocalpoint]

I think it's great the program makes day-based and month-based backups, cleans them up automatically, and even let's me put them on another drive.  For me, the behavior is useful, reasonable, and doesn't call for configuration.

I guess I am in glass half empty mode today

If so called "daily" MC backups occur with no rhyme or reason (my own backups prove this out - it's very hit and miss) - that serves little purpose if you actually "needed" a backup to rely on after some major issues. I see a lot of benefit to all users to have a few basic controls to enter a time and a schedule to be SURE that MC is really taking a daily backup.

I have gaps in my backups during the last six weeks of of up to 3 days between backups - and MC is up literally during every waking minute of my typical day.

I have invested literally man-years of time building our library and god forbid I should hit a spot of trouble that leave me hanging because my most recent "automatic" backup was from 4 days ago - and I made a thousand changes since then

Her's hoping something basic could be considered.

Cheers,

VP

[JimH]

If you're not satisfied with the automatic method, just take over and do your own backups manually.

[Vocalpoint]

If you're not satisfied with the automatic method, just take over and do your own backups manually.

I think I clearly stated that is what I do (due to a lack of any kind of timely basic automation within MC) - but that's really not the point of this thread - now is it?

And this "manual" method only works if one remembers to do it. Quite frankly - I do not want to have to remember. That's what computers are for.

Folks have stated real valid reasons in this request and I think it's a good one.

VP

[glynor]

You've been able to automate them since August.

You can do this now.  There's a silent option now:
http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=82654.0

You're welcome.   

Jim fixed it so you can actually read the thread.

This isn't rocket surgery.  Windows Task Scheduler:

1. Make a new task.
2. Have it run: mc19.exe /MCC 20011,1
3. Set it to run as often as you'd like (every 10 minutes if you're a crazy person).
4. Optionally, set the backup location in MC to a drive other than your C drive where you have plenty of space.
5. Profit!

[6233638]

I think it's great the program makes day-based and month-based backups, cleans them up automatically, and even let's me put them on another drive.  For me, the behavior is useful, reasonable, and doesn't call for configuration.

I agree completely, itʼs very useful that Media Center does this.
I think we have a different definition of what “daily” means though.
 
I also think it was a good suggestion that after large changes to the library, it might be useful for Media Center to create an additional backup—though Iʼm not sure what would constitute a “large” change.
 
 
Scheduling backups via the Windows Scheduler, or using external backup programs is a solution for advanced users. Normal users won't be considering any of this, theyʼll just be out of luck if something went horribly wrong and their last backup was three days ago.
 
For what itʼs worth, even if a normal user knows that the library location is %APPDATA%\J River\Media Center 19\Library (unlikely) I was unable to add this to my Acronis backup—I had to manually change C:\Users\username\AppData\ to be a non-hidden folder before I was able to select it.

If you have a regular system-wide backup in place, e.g. daily, then maybe an hourly MC backup is appropriate because you've then got 24 hourly backups backed up every day!  In that respect, Mc doing its own backup regime isn't really important, or is it that people are looking for covenience in restoring a library quickly within MC rather than having to go to a backup archive?

I don't know what the overhead of this would be, but I would not be opposed to a day of hourly backups in addition to daily ones. If you are restoring a backup because something has gone wrong, you want to revert the smallest amount of changes necessary to fix things.

You've been able to automate them since August.

Do we know if Media Center cleans up after itself with manually scheduled backups, or if these will just keep being created until they fill up the drive?
 
I assume these are done in addition to the automatic backups, rather than replacing them?

[Vocalpoint]

This isn't rocket surgery.  Windows Task Scheduler:

1. Make a new task.
2. Have it run: mc19.exe /MCC 20011,1
3. Set it to run as often as you'd like (every 10 minutes if you're a crazy person).
4. Optionally, set the backup location in MC to a drive other than your C drive where you have plenty of space.
5. Profit!

Now we are talkin! This part (the most valuable part) was not in that thread. Much thanks - will give this a try

VP

[glynor]

Do we know if Media Center cleans up after itself with manually scheduled backups, or if these will just keep being created until they fill up the drive?

This was the part that I haven't tested (because you have to remember to come back later and check after the cleanup has run).  I don't know, but I strongly suspect (since they're to the same place and same naming pattern) that they are treated the same as the automatic ones.

I assume these are done in addition to the automatic backups, rather than replacing them?

Correct.  It still does its thing.  These are just "extras" saved to the same location and named via the same pattern.

[glynor]

Scheduling backups via the Windows Scheduler, or using external backup programs is a solution for advanced users. Normal users won't be considering any of this, theyʼll just be out of luck if something went horribly wrong and their last backup was three days ago.

While that's true...  I can also see it from Matt's point of view.  I think "caring about three days worth of work" makes you an advanced user.

I was just talking to a co-worker (today) about her process ripping her CDs and moving to all digital music.  She finished this process a few months ago.  She talked about how it was a "lot of work" and "overwhelming" until she came up with a good system for doing it, which was:  rip one disc per week, on Saturday morning, while she drank her coffee.

I think this is the level that normal people would consider "heavy library maintenance".

Now, obviously, JRiver Media Center isn't for completely normal people (no $50 media player is), but even more advanced users like my buddy Steve (who does use MC).  If he lost three days worth of Library data?  Unless it was the absolute wrong three days, it would be a minor annoyance in most cases.

The absolute wrong three days, though, can happen to any backup scheme.  It could be the "absolute wrong" 10 minutes if you did it ever 10 minutes.  So...

I think it falls into the margins, and people can look at it differently.  If it was me, I'd probably make it daily.  But, that does also cost additional disk space, which some users have in very limited quantities, so...  I don't know.  Three days is pretty good.  It is sure better than nothing, and you can script it to run as often as you like with a tiny bit of work.

[6233638]

While that's true...  I can also see it from Matt's point of view.  I think "caring about three days worth of work" makes you an advanced user.

It's not about three days of work, it's about being able to lose any changes made in the last three days. That's half a week, and even casual users are likely to have made a change in that period of time.
 

I was just talking to a co-worker (today) about her process ripping her CDs and moving to all digital music.  She finished this process a few months ago.  She talked about how it was a "lot of work" and "overwhelming" until she came up with a good system for doing it, which was:  rip one disc per week, on Saturday morning, while she drank her coffee.

I think that's more laid-back than most, but perhaps she's using a notebook where it takes 10-15 minutes rather than 90-120s to rip a disc.
 
Most people I know do something similar, but it's more like a stack of 10 over the course of a weekend, than one a week.

The absolute wrong three days, though, can happen to any backup scheme.  It could be the "absolute wrong" 10 minutes if you did it ever 10 minutes.  So...

Of course, but I don't think there's going to be anything that critical in a Media Center application. I do think that your co-worker would still be annoyed if she ripped a disc on Saturday morning and lost any changes she made if the last backup was Thursday.

If it was me, I'd probably make it daily.  But, that does also cost additional disk space, which some users have in very limited quantities, so...  I don't know.

Well Library backups seem very small, but I've already outlined some schemes which would give you much better "disaster recovery" options (one day rather than three) while requiring fewer total backups to be stored.

[mwillems]

I think I'm with Glynor on this one.  If three days worth of changes that aren't recoverable from the files are an issue, you're probably a power user.  The casual users I know have a low media throughput, and they mostly use tags that can be written to the files (making any changes recoverable even if they lose the library).

I say this a person who makes lots of fiddly changes to media center settings, and has lost hours of work due to the backup timing.  But I recognize that most people won't spend four hours on a sunday afternoon messing with DSP studio (and then fail to create a manual backup).

I wasn't aware of the backup automation tools, but that seems like it adds an arbitrary amount of user control.  Is there something the automation wouldn't accomplish?

[6233638]

most people won't spend four hours on a sunday afternoon messing with DSP studio (and then fail to create a manual backup).

Right - but if something happens on Monday which requires you to revert to a backup, you've now lost those four hours of work.
Not because you spent three days on it, but because the last backup was three days ago, instead of yesterday.
 
7 daily backups plus 3 weekly backups creates fewer files than the current "every 2 or 3 days for a month" scheme, and creates more relevant backups for restoring data.
 
I also like the idea of having a backup that runs more than once a day to catch changes that may have been missed - but maybe that's something for a third-party backup solution to handle.

[glynor]

Right, but you were spending four hours doing Library maintenance or options tweaking, which makes you a power user no matter what.  Like I said, I basically agree, but I can see how others could think the existing scheme would be good enough.

Let's not forget what the Library Backup is actually backing up.

Using my friend Steve as the example, he wouldn't care if the backup was from four hours ago or four months ago, because he hasn't changed the config since I helped him set it up, essentially at all.  He has imported media, of course, but that's not really what the library backup is for.  The important tag data is all synced to the file tags and sidecar files.  Auto import will just reimport them and he'd be fine.

And if he lost the media itself, then the library backup is useless.  Backing up the media is obviously out of scope.

If you're using files that don't allow embedded tags (very rare and high end), have embedded tags disabled (non-default and ill advised), use views that depend heavily on Date Imported, are constantly tweaking the Library setup (views and whatnot), or playing with DSP settings, I think the argument could be made that you are something of a power user.

We're basically talking about Playlists for most people, and that's it.

Again, I could go either way, but obviously it isn't the simplest change to make for whatever reason, or they don't agree, so... Meh.  The current system is pretty good, and now easy enough to extend.

[apostos]

I'm typically nervous around databases. Experiences with financial software have made me that way. Although, to be fair, I suppose any long term exposure to a program that accepts and stores user info is sure to have the odd hiccup. Touch wood. MC has so far proven to be quite robust in that respect...

I typically back up the library before and after any changes are made. Seriously... who can remember all that stuff?

As perhaps a cautious, 'normal' user I'm content with the status quo and actually prefer to maintain the number and integrity of the library backups myself...

(ps. Sorry if I'm in too much of a glass-half-full mood this morning.  It finally got above 0 Fahrenheit here.)

A balmy -13 F (-22 with the wind chill) here today... the highest daytime high we've had in a week. I'm feeling kinda glass-half-full myself...

[MrC]

I can't understand the resistance.

My library backups for ~20k files are 2.2Mb.  All 20 of them combined is 44Mb, the oldest one from Aug 1st, and collectively, this is orders of magnitude smaller than the total space used by the JRiver-recommended method of storing cover art within files (almost 4Gb for my 20k files).  Daily backups for the past week or two would be insignificant space-wise; the extra assurance well worth it, especially for new users as they make lots of changes early on (often incorrect, or mistakes).

Developers expect that people use their computers daily.  I feel strategies should cover this work-case; the weekend warrior shouldn't be considered the norm.

[mojave]

I can't understand the resistance.

What if a daily backup occurred while one is listening to music? Instant audiophile anxiety! You might have to listen to the same song twice.

[glynor]

I think it's a "if it ain't broke" thing.  All changes, no matter how small, have the potential to introduce bugs (and potentially crippling ones).

This has been working reasonably well with limited complaints (not counting my incessant whining for automation) for quite some time, and Matt pointed out in the other thread that Rick wrote it, not him.

So... FUD.

I bet he'd say: Daily would probably be a little better, but only marginally (because above), and... It'll take me a while to figure the system out and if I muck with it I might break something, so since it is pretty good and flexible anyway... Leave well enough alone."

I'm guessing, but I bet it is something like that.