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[6233638]

Well, according to this post, one of the reasons I've been hearing pops and clicks with my SACD tracks, is because the sacd_extract tool does not properly extract tracks individually to DSF.
 
So I have started the arduous process of re-ripping affected discs, intending on keeping them as ISO now, even though they're a pain to deal with.
However, I don't want to lose all my metadata changes.
 
Is it "safe" in Media Center if I simply use the Rename, Move, & Copy Files… tool to update the filenames to point to the ISO instead, and change the file type?
 
It needs a little work, as Media Center uses: \filename.iso;track to identify tracks within the ISO, and I need to restart MC to update certain file properties such as the duration. (which seems to differ between the ISO and the extracted tracks)
 
So far I've tried it with one album, and it seemed to work OK, though the track names were replaced with the ones in the SACD metadata instead of the fixed names, but that's not a big deal. It's all my other customizations like custom tags, keywords, ratings etc. that I don't want to lose.
 
 
Is this safe to do, or should I simply import the ISO fresh, and re-tag everything?
Is there a way to copy and paste all the metadata from the DSF files straight into the ISO ones?

[6233638]

Oh, well this is no good. Every SACD ISO in my library is "updated for external changes" when auto-import runs; whether it was imported as a new album, or if I replaced the extracted DSF tracks with the rename tool.
 
Any information which is contained as SACD metadata replaces any changes made in the Media Center library every time it runs.

So all the track names on some albums get changed for example (to being all lowercase or uppercase) and track numbers change so that the multichannel layer continues after the stereo tracks. (e.g. Multichannel Track #1 is now listed as #16)

[kstuart]

Did you see this thread:

http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=86849.0

---

BTW, I happened to talk to 6233637 yesterday, and he said that you are not 0.000016% better than he is...

[6233638]

I hadn't seen that, but it does look like it's a bug with auto-import.
 
It's seeing the embedded SACD metadata in the ISO as external changes to the file and overwriting whatever values are in the library.
 
Disabling the "Update for external changes" option in auto-import seems to be working as a temporary fix.

[David R. Williams]

I recently went through the same decision process, as I'd ditched the original .dsf extracts from iso's as they'd clicking at the end of every track, iso playback not having ticks, but (and it's a big but) dealing with iso tagging was a pain, had no backup process that would work properly (MC library backups don't fully backup manually changed iso tags) and with MC19 some of my iso tags kept being reset to values from the iso file information that I wanted to change via my tag overrides (even though my iso's were NOT in an auto-import folder).  

I ended up re-extracting the iso's into dff's, converting them to dsf's with AudioGate, and then re-tagging the dsf's.  

Hundreds of tweets later, the resulting dsf's don't tick and have the tags stored within the new dsf file (so it's portable between my two MC systems, AND can be backed up/recovered along with the file).

It was (another) big investment of time to do this all again (once for the ticking dsf's, once for the iso's, and now again for the iso - dff - dsf's, but hopefully I'll never have to re-tag the files again and I have no end-of-track ticks.

...and these files, what sound!!!!  It's amazing what DSD sounds like (to my ears, at least).

[InflatableMouse]

Have you tried exporting to a playlist and use find/replace on the filename to point to the ISO?

I'm thinking you could do that now with your properly tagged files. After you've reripped do the same with the ISO. Then "simply" replace the filepaths in the first file with those in the 2nd. Import playlist.

This could probably be scripted. XML is relatively easy to work with.

[6233638]

I recently went through the same decision process, as I'd ditched the original .dsf extracts from iso's as they'd clicking at the end of every track, iso playback not having ticks, but (and it's a big but) dealing with iso tagging was a pain, had no backup process that would work properly (MC library backups don't fully backup manually changed iso tags)

Yes, that is a huge pain. I'd really like XML sidecars to be created for SACD ISO files, as they are for DVD/Blu-ray ISOs.

and with MC19 some of my iso tags kept being reset to values from the iso file information that I wanted to change via my tag overrides (even though my iso's were NOT in an auto-import folder).

It's due to the "Update for external changes" setting, which does not seem to require the files to be in an auto-import folder. (MC just checks all files in its library for changes)

I ended up re-extracting the iso's into dff's, converting them to dsf's with AudioGate, and then re-tagging the dsf's.

My concern here is that:

• This is a huge amount of work.
• We don't know for certain (though it is likely) that AudioGate is only changing the way the DSD audio is stored, and not converting to PCM at some point.
• DSF files are twice the size of DFF files, as they are uncompressed.

Hundreds of tweets later…

WHY Korg, WHY!?

It was (another) big investment of time to do this all again (once for the ticking dsf's, once for the iso's, and now again for the iso - dff - dsf's, but hopefully I'll never have to re-tag the files again and I have no end-of-track ticks.

That sounds really nice.

Have you tried exporting to a playlist and use find/replace on the filename to point to the ISO?

Well I just used the Rename tool inside Media Center. My concern is that things like duration vary slightly between the extracted files and the ISO.
 
That's one thing where "Update for external changes" actually seems to be useful.

This could probably be scripted. XML is relatively easy to work with.

Well it's easy enough to point the files at the ISO with Media Center's expression language. I'm just concerned that doing this is going to end up being a bad idea.
 
It's a shame that Media Center doesn't let you sync metadata with a tool similar to Lightroom's metadata sync tool, if you've ever used that.
 
There, you simply select all the files you want synced, choose which is the master file, and then select which fields will be synced. (presumably you would use [Disc #] and [Track #] to identify each track, and sync everything else across)

[David R. Williams]

My concern here is that:

• This is a huge amount of work.
• We don't know for certain (though it is likely) that AudioGate is only changing the way the DSD audio is stored, and not converting to PCM at some point.
• DSF files are twice the size of DFF files, as they are uncompressed.

It sure was.  What fun (again). ::)

With the (high) speed with which AudioGate ran through the dff to dsf conversions and the very low processor utilization while running the conversions, I'd tend to think it must be preserving the dsd structure, as the processor load capacity to convert from dff to pcm and back to dsf would be unlikely to run as quickly at such low processor.

Interestingly, when I extracted the two-channel dff's from the iso files, the resulting two-channel dsf's were very close in size to the dff's.

[InflatableMouse]

Can't you simply test that by compressing it and uncompressing it with Audiogate and then do a binary compare on the two? If the process is lossless and without converting to PCM, they should match. If it doesn't match I'd be suspious  .

At one time I had a program that could do it lossless (a trial version, very expensive, forgot what it was) but it was b*tch to work with. It required a dozen mouse clicks for browsing to the source, then to the destination and manual output filename to be typed in and could only do a single file at a time.

We really need MC to be able to natively convert DFF to DSF and back etc. Without PCM in the middle. Like it handles WAV and FLAC.

[David R. Williams]

Can't you simply test that by compressing it and uncompressing it with Audiogate and then do a binary compare on the two? If the process is lossless and without converting to PCM, they should match. If it doesn't match I'd be suspious  .

Accounting for the differences in file sizes caused by embedded tags in the dsf files, the file sizes are identical before and after AudioGate conversion. 

Converting a tagged dsf file (let's call this file dsf-1) to dff (file dff-1), then converting the dff to dsf (file dsf-2) results in dsf-1 and dsf-2 having different file sizes, as expected since dsf-1 had lots of tag values embedded in the file and the first conversion to dff-1 strips out most of these tags before then converting back to dsf-2. 

Converting the "tag-stripped "dsf-2 to a new dff (dff-2) results in dff-2 having the same file size as dff-1, and converting dff-2 into dsf-3 results in dsf-3 having exactly the same size as dsf-2. 

 

[6233638]

With the (high) speed with which AudioGate ran through the dff to dsf conversions and the very low processor utilization while running the conversions, I'd tend to think it must be preserving the dsd structure, as the processor load capacity to convert from dff to pcm and back to dsf would be unlikely to run as quickly at such low processor.

It does seem likely to be keeping audio as native DSD then.

Interestingly, when I extracted the two-channel dff's from the iso files, the resulting two-channel dsf's were very close in size to the dff's.

DST compression inside stereo DFF files is optional, and rarely every used on stereo SACDs - I guess they just like to fill the space on the disc. This is actually an annoyance of mine, as I'd rather compress them to save half the space. (can Audiogate do that?)
 
With discs which contain multichannel and stereo tracks, the stereo layer is often compressed though, and the multichannel DFF tracks require DST compression.
 
 
For what it's worth, I've imported a handful of albums as ISO now, and have encountered a number of problems with them.
Any SACD metadata is seen as being external changes to the file and replaces any changed values in your library (e.g. fixing the name of tracks) and I've had one album list itself three times. (stereo, multichannel, and half of the stereo tracks again)
 
I'm also getting a click at the beginning of playback with ISO files. In fact, I don't seem able to get click-free playback at all. ISO, DSF, or DFF files all have it to some degree whether I'm bitstreaming or converting to PCM.
I wonder if audiogate converted DSF files are perhaps the only solution to fix this, or if something else is causing it.
 
It shouldn't be happening at all when ISO files are played back as PCM. (if I play a 176.4kHz PCM file, there's no click at the start)

[InflatableMouse]

FWIW, I never get any clicks or pops with any of these, bitstreaming or otherwise. I had it in the beginning when I got the TEAC DAC but Matt fixed it somehow.

Therefore, it might not be in the files itself but how MC interacts with your DAC perhaps?

[6233638]

FWIW, I never get any clicks or pops with any of these, bitstreaming or otherwise. I had it in the beginning when I got the TEAC DAC but Matt fixed it somehow.

Therefore, it might not be in the files itself but how MC interacts with your DAC perhaps?

There is a problem with bitstreaming, which was introduced in MC19. There was always a soft click when starting bitstreaming in MC18, but in MC19 there is now a loud click at the start of DoP bitstreaming.
 
However, I get this click when playing back SACD ISOs (or any DSD files) as 176.4kHz PCM as well.
My DAC is completely silent when switching PCM sample rates, so it's definitely an issue with Media Center's output.
 
If I play a 176.4kHz PCM file, there's no click at the start, but there is when Media Center converts DSD to 176.4kHz PCM - so I have to conclude that something in the DSD playback engine is causing it.
 
 
My DAC is also supposed to be silent when switching between DSD and PCM, but Matt insisted that it was the DAC's fault, and the manufacturer insists that it's the player's fault.
 
One of the big selling points of this DAC, as it's a professional DAC designed for studio use, is that there are never any pops & clicks introduced when switching formats, so I'm inclined to side with them on that matter.

[Otello]

I think all the problems with SACD ISO tagging could be easily solved by a sidecar file.
Any plan to impement sidecar for SACD ISO?

[connersw]

I think all the problems with SACD ISO tagging could be easily solved by a sidecar file.
Any plan to impement sidecar for SACD ISO?

+1

[6233638]

I think all the problems with SACD ISO tagging could be easily solved by a sidecar file.
Any plan to impement sidecar for SACD ISO?

Well the library itself should be storing changes for SACD ISOs, the problem is that the metadata stored inside the ISO is considered to be an external change the file and "newer" than the information in the library.
 
Sidecars would be very useful for SACD ISO (or DFF files) for other reasons though.

[Otello]

Well the library itself should be storing changes for SACD ISOs, the problem is that the metadata stored inside the ISO is considered to be an external change the file and "newer" than the information in the library.
 
Sidecars would be very useful for SACD ISO (or DFF files) for other reasons though.

Well, I assume our programmers are smart enough!
I mean, in case the sidecar were implemented, I assume the programmers will change the code so the program will look for a sidecar and in positive case ignore the data inside the ISO.

[thm655321]

I too would like to make a feature request that JRiver convert dff to dsf without the PCM interim step.

That would avoid the hassle of having to use external software like Audiogate.

[6233638]

I read it in another post earlier today, and just got around to trying - I was not aware that Media Center had the ability to copy and paste tags between files. (Ctrl + Shift + V)
 
This has made it much easier to simply import the ISO file normally, and copy and paste the metadata from the previously extracted DSF/DFF files.
 

I too would like to make a feature request that JRiver convert dff to dsf without the PCM interim step.

It would be nice if they can implement it, but it really should not be necessary to begin with.

[bulldogger]

However, I get this click when playing back SACD ISOs (or any DSD files) as 176.4kHz PCM as well.
My DAC is completely silent when switching PCM sample rates, so it's definitely an issue with Media Center's output.
 
- so I have to conclude that something in the DSD playback engine is causing it.
 

 Many classical titles have the problem. Is that mostly what you are having the issue with, classical music? It's an old issue. I thought it was being worked on by Mr. Wicked some years back but apparently it has not yet been solved. http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?3341-Ripping-SACDs-the-right-way  . Read Bruce B post from 2011. I think it's the ripper and not so much anything JRiver is doing wrong. I believe it's possible to implement a software fix. However, this is fixing an issue that is native to the data, not JRiver.

[6233638]

Many classical titles have the problem. Is that mostly what you are having the issue with, classical music? It's an old issue. I thought it was being worked on my Mr. Wicked some years back but apparently it has not yet been solved. http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?3341-Ripping-SACDs-the-right-way  . Read Bruce B post from 2011. I think it's the ripper and not so much anything JRiver is doing wrong. I believe it's possible to implement a software fix. However, this is fixing an issue that is native to the data, not JRiver.

I was under the impression that this was only a problem when you try to extract individual tracks (and only as DSF?) which is why I started re-ripping discs and simply importing the ISO image rather than splitting them into DFF/DSF tracks, as I had been doing before.
 
With the ISO files at least, there doesn't seem to be any problem with gapless tracks. (e.g. Dark Side of the Moon - as suggested in that topic)
It's only when I start playback or switch albums that there's a click at the beginning. (and possibly switching tracks manually - but I rarely ever do that)
 
This click should not be there at all when outputting PCM, and it seems like MC is missing the correct start point in the ISO?
I say this because I can play a 176.4kHz PCM track without any clicks, but there's always that click at the start of an SACD ISO being output at 176.4kHz.
 
 
There is a separate issue where DoP Bitstreaming clicks when playback is started or stopped, but that's unrelated to the format being played. (affects ISO/DSF/DFF/DSD Encoding)

[TedSmith]

With the ISO files ... It's only when I start playback or switch albums that there's a click at the beginning. (and possibly switching tracks manually - but I rarely ever do that)

I get no clicks or pops in MC when I start ISO files with DoP, nor when I change tracks manually.  Perhaps it's DAC related?  (Conversely I get said clicks and pops in foobar2000 with DoP since it always seems to play a small amount of stuff @ 44.1k when starting or stopping DoP.)

[6233638]

I get no clicks or pops in MC when I start ISO files with DoP, nor when I change tracks manually.  Perhaps it's DAC related?  (Conversely I get said clicks and pops in foobar2000 with DoP since it always seems to play a small amount of stuff @ 44.1k when starting or stopping DoP.)

Yes, with DoP Bitstreaming/Encoding there's a click at the start and end of playback. This is caused by some sort of Media Center/DAC "incompatibility" - though it was far less noticeable in MC18. Something changed in MC19 which made it a lot worse.
My DAC (Benchmark DAC2) is supposed to be silent when switching to/from DoP, but there's always a click when using MC19.
 
 
However, the DAC is silent in Media Center when switching PCM formats (e.g. 44.1kHz → 176.4kHz) except when playing SACD ISO.
Native 176.4kHz PCM files do not click at the start of playback, but SACD ISO output at 176.4kHz does.
This leads me to conclude that something is not working correctly with SACD ISO playback.

[bulldogger]

I use a Theta Digital Gen VIII S3 dac. No clicks or pops with SACD iso playback. Two friends use the same and report no issues. No clicks or pops when you change sample rates as well.

[bulldogger]

This is not directly related to what you are doing. When JRiver is doing the conversion "on the fly" for SACD iso playback so it's possible something like CPU load could be a factor. I know it's unlikely but you never know. http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f6-dac-digital-analog-conversion/why-you-hear-clicks-and-pops-17231/

[6233638]

This is not directly related to what you are doing. When JRiver is doing the conversion "on the fly" for SACD iso playback so it's possible something like CPU load could be a factor. I know it's unlikely but you never know. http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f6-dac-digital-analog-conversion/why-you-hear-clicks-and-pops-17231/

No, that's not an issue here - it's only a click at the start of playback.
As it happens when outputting PCM, I don't see how it could be the DAC or anything else. (because native PCM tracks do not click at the start of playback)

[bulldogger]

No, that's not an issue here - it's only a click at the start of playback.
As it happens when outputting PCM, I don't see how it could be the DAC or anything else. (because native PCM tracks do not click at the start of playback)

Does it happen with files that have already been converted to PCM by JRiver or only the stuff done in real time?  This is something unique to your set-up. The only way to figure this out is the process of elimination. Try using a different computer. I still think it could be the dac . A google search reveals several owners of Benchmark dacs with clicks and pops. If it's possible try using another dac in your set-up. Even if other Benchmark dacs do not have the issue, there could be a defect in the dac that you own. There are just too many possibilities. If it were just JRiver, any of us could replicate the issue because it's the common variable. There would seem to be another variable at play here.

[JimH]

That's good advice.

[ted_b]

No, that's not an issue here - it's only a click at the start of playback.
As it happens when outputting PCM, I don't see how it could be the DAC or anything else. (because native PCM tracks do not click at the start of playback)

The clicks associated with DSD (ISO, DSF, DIFF) have to do with dc offset; DSD is bascally an analog signal riding on dc.  The edits between tracks are supposed to be done at the zero crossing point, but often not done that way (esp with Mr Wicked's DSF extrcator). Note: this dc offset is not present in PCM, so no issues...but it shows itself when changing PCM to DSD (any container of DSD). 

However.....dc offsets, like many signals in the chain, are handled differently by your player, your dac, your preamp and your amps.  So it is not at all surprising that some of us report very different results with our DSD-capable systems.  For example, my Modwright monoblocks have huge issues with dc (which I am fine with cuz they have good shutoff protection, and the upside is better fidelity IMHO).  But..my Meitner MA-1 has no clicks or pops that are anything close to audible, so I have no issues there.  Put my Mytek (or Mytek stack) in the system and the clicks are often an issue (but only bad with MAC players!).  My exaSound has no real issues with multichannel DSD except when switching from PCM playback to DSD playback.  I am fine with this.

I have had over two dozen DSD-capable DACs in my system, and each of them not only has its own sweetspot, but its own level of dealing with DSD's clicks.  Argh!

Question to those techiocal within the JRiver team (or users):
_ does JRiver do any different processing with SACD ISO's than with DSF or DFF tracks (other than needing a larger buffer, most likely).  I was listening last night and have a infinitesimal preference for the smoothness I hear with ISO playback over the extracted DSF (click notwithstanding)...but I dislike ISO management (as has been already discussed above).  I'm wondering if it's JRiver, the extraction process, placebo, etc.  It was not a blind test by any stretch. 

[kstuart]

...and these files, what sound!!!!  It's amazing what DSD sounds like (to my ears, at least).

Just FYI - myself and a friend of mine - working independently - both discovered that when PCM recordings were converted to DSD and then back to PCM, they exhibited the same sound characteristics that "DSD fans" say that DSD provides.

So, DSD is a "euphonic" distortion applied by processing.   Probably related to the massive amount of high frequency noise added.

If you go to:

http://www.2l.no/hires/

you can download the same files made into various formats.  (The original 24/352.8 recordings that you can get there sound beautifully clear and free of grit and grain... on a good DAC... )

[ted_b]

Just FYI - myself and a friend of mine - working independently - both discovered that when PCM recordings were converted to DSD and then back to PCM, they exhibited the same sound characteristics that "DSD fans" say that DSD provides.

So, DSD is a "euphonic" distortion applied by processing.   Probably related to the massive amount of high frequency noise added.

If you go to:

http://www.2l.no/hires/

you can download the same files made into various formats.  (The original 24/352.8 recordings that you can get there sound beautifully clear and free of grit and grain... on a good DAC... )

?? Huh?  Of course the 2L files sound great in 24/352!!  That's what they  were recorded in.  Your PCM-DSD-PCM example (and moreover, your conclusion) is quite flawed

[6233638]

Does it happen with files that have already been converted to PCM by JRiver or only the stuff done in real time?

SACD ISO: Clicks
ISO converted to ALAC: Clicks
Native PCM version: Silence

A google search reveals several owners of Benchmark dacs with clicks and pops.

There is a loud click/pop when you turn the device on, and there are relays inside the device which physically isolate the analog inputs from the signal path that make a click when you select either of the analog inputs. That's probably what most of those are referring to.
 
The DAC2 is designed so that it should never pop/click when changing audio formats, or when doing things like resetting your PC. (some DACs make a loud pop every time you do that)
 
It is silent when starting PCM playback, or changing PCM sample rates inside Media Center.
It clicks at the start of DSD converted to PCM, or native DSD though - which is why it seems likely that it's a problem in the way that Media Center is handling DSD conversion.
 

If it's possible try using another dac in your set-up. Even if other Benchmark dacs do not have the issue, there could be a defect in the dac that you own.

I don't have access to another DSD DAC, or another DAC which is silent during PCM sample rate changes. I did have two of the Benchmark DACs here at one point, and both were exactly the same in this regard, so it's unlikely that mine is faulty.

[kstuart]

?? Huh?  Of course the 2L files sound great in 24/352!!  That's what they  were recorded in.  Your PCM-DSD-PCM example (and moreover, your conclusion) is quite flawed

The 2L files start as PCM.

Their DSD files are converted, i.e. PCM->DSD

If you playback in JRiver MC19 as PCM, then PCM->DSD->PCM.

When you do that, the files sound "better" in the way described by "DSD fans".

So what is the flaw ?

The reference to the original 24/352.8 files sounding good was in parentheses - " ( ) ".   This means it is not part of the overall flow of logic, it's just an aside.

[ted_b]

The 2L files start as PCM.

Yes, they start as DXD aka 24/353.8k.  And that is how they should be played back.

Their DSD files are converted, i.e. PCM->DSD

Of course, we just established that they are not DSD-native.

If you playback in JRiver MC19 as PCM, then PCM->DSD->PCM.

When you do that, the files sound "better" in the way described by "DSD fans".

Huh (again)?  First of, why would you choose the DSD files over the native PCM files?  Even if you did choose/buy the DSD version, why would you then play them back in PCM (as opposed to DSD)?  And in what weird world would these overly converted (twice to three times in your world) files sound "better" to anyone?  DSD fans like DSD recordings, and ones that are analog-to-DSD.  If we DSD fans (and we are PCM fans too....more music more of the time) find a PCM sourced one, then its best to find the actual PCM source.  In many cases this is not possible, but when it is, do it.  Conversion to PCM is never a good thing, unless the sweetspot of your DAC is SOOOO much better in PCM than it is in DSD...and even then, it's a necessary evil.  Net/net: listen to music as close to the original "tape" master as possible.  In the case of thousands of native DSD masters, and all else being equal, DSD would be the best choice.  Same for PCM.  What is so difficult to understand about this?

So what is the flaw ?

The reference to the original 24/352.8 files sounding good was in parentheses - " ( ) ".   This means it is not part of the overall flow of logic, it's just an aside.

See above.  No one who loves music enjoys converted files for the sake of conversion.  No one would say PCM-DSD-PCM is the way to go...DSD fans or PCM fans.  Except you.

[kstuart]

You are missing the point.

The PCM->DSD->PCM is a test.

DSD Fans say "DSD sounds better.  If everyone used DSD instead of PCM, there would be world peace." And then they describe the ways in which they perceive it sounds better.  (Too long to detail here.)

However, if you do PCM->DSD->PCM, you find that the resulting changes from the original PCM fit perfectly the DSD Fan descriptions of the "improvements in using DSD instead of PCM".  This occurs even though the original file is not PCM and the resulting file is not PCM.

Therefore, what they are describing is a "fun distortion".  Some people have theorized this is because DSD adds a large amount of very-high-frequency noise that can affect the audio band playback.  (In an analogous way (just an illustration) - if you artificially edge enhance video, it looks "better".)

BTW, good luck in finding DSD recordings that have stayed one-bit and never were converted to PCM for processing.   Almost none of the popular artists' SACDs were done that way.

[TedSmith]

However, if you do PCM->DSD->PCM, you find that the resulting changes from the original PCM fit perfectly the DSD Fan descriptions of the "improvements in using DSD instead of PCM".  This occurs even though the original file is not PCM[sic] and the resulting file is not PCM[sic].

Therefore, ...

However, if you do DSD->PCM->DSD, you find that the resulting changes from the original DSD fit perfectly the PCM Fan descriptions of the "improvements in using PCM instead of DSD".  This occurs even though the original file is not PCM and the resulting file is not PCM.

Therefore, ...

[6233638]

This is all well and good, but can we focus on solving these problems with DSD files rather than arguing over whether PCM is better than DSD or not?
 
For me, I don't care about the format, I care about getting the best quality master I can.
And right now, that is often on a SACD disc.
 
Something else to consider is that SACD offers multichannel audio rather than simply being stereo. (not that I use the multichannel tracks just now)