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Author Topic: Guide to Speaker/Room Correction Using Freeware and JRiver  (Read 212081 times)

guer_j

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Re: Guide to Speaker/Room Correction Using Freeware and JRiver
« Reply #150 on: February 27, 2018, 09:09:47 am »

Not sure if it is kosher to revive old threads here so just asking for forgiveness in advance....

So I tried to follow this tutorial  with pretty good results, I think my Axiom M60 (v. from around '99-00'ish ) sound much better. They've always had this kinda harshness to it that I got used to it but anyway...

I do have a few questions:

 1. How to mic the tests for M60?: I did a mid-woofer/tweeter (mic between them)  and a Woofer (mic centered on the top (6.5) woofer). I didn't want to over complicate this that's why I didn't choose to mic each of the woofer and tweeter individually.  Because I did mid/tweeter together stitching became a bit more difficult since I had to figure out the Xover point.

This is my mid/tweeter(blue), Woofer(red) and stitching(green)
 https://imgur.com/a/oIUez

2. Notice that huge bump from 3K and about 8K , I'm pretty sure that's all harshness right there, So I'm wondering why my speakers had such a huge bump. It is better to have a bump than a valley... anyway just curious.

3. I want to continue experimenting on, what are the recommendation for Mic'ing and later stitching an M60?
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mattkhan

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Re: Guide to Speaker/Room Correction Using Freeware and JRiver
« Reply #151 on: February 27, 2018, 09:43:06 am »

something looks very wrong with that speaker if the measurements are accurate as that's an enormous and broad (low Q) lift in the response. I'd expect that to be very much audible (and not in a good way!) and is not something you'd expect to see in a functioning speaker.
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guer_j

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Re: Guide to Speaker/Room Correction Using Freeware and JRiver
« Reply #152 on: February 27, 2018, 10:11:20 am »

Yeah, like I said, these speakers always sounded way too harsh. I've always had to Eq. them. I'm going to email Axiom and see what they say. I mean, I bought these speakers almost 18 years ago online (how time flies). I've always used the same receiver with them a Denon AVR 3300, I mean, it could be that but I doubt it. I made sure any eq. setting is either off or 0'ed out on the receiver. 
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mwillems

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Re: Guide to Speaker/Room Correction Using Freeware and JRiver
« Reply #153 on: February 27, 2018, 05:51:42 pm »

1. How to mic the tests for M60?: I did a mid-woofer/tweeter (mic between them)  and a Woofer (mic centered on the top (6.5) woofer). I didn't want to over complicate this that's why I didn't choose to mic each of the woofer and tweeter individually.  Because I did mid/tweeter together stitching became a bit more difficult since I had to figure out the Xover point.

This is my mid/tweeter(blue), Woofer(red) and stitching(green)
 https://imgur.com/a/oIUez

I don't know anything about your speaker model; is it a three-way?  If so try micing the woofer, midbass, and tweeter separately and then stitching; there's info upthread from someone else in a similar spot.

Quote
2. Notice that huge bump from 3K and about 8K , I'm pretty sure that's all harshness right there, So I'm wondering why my speakers had such a huge bump. It is better to have a bump than a valley... anyway just curious.

If you're measuring in between two elements I wouldn't trust the measurements, but that bump is definitely a problem if it's real.

Quote
3. I want to continue experimenting on, what are the recommendation for Mic'ing and later stitching an M60?

I've never seen your speakers so you'll need to describe the speaker more minutely.  How many elements?  In what arrangement?  Where are the crossovers? 
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bugeyed

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Re: Guide to Speaker/Room Correction Using Freeware and JRiver
« Reply #154 on: March 29, 2018, 09:33:55 am »

I am about to jump into this & am wondering if the info about HOLMImpulse is all still relevant. HOLMImpulse is no longer supported & they no longer sell the mic they use (HOLM MIC 1). The MIC 1 is not a USB Mic as is the mic recommended for use with REW (miniDSP UMIK-1). I am wondering if RoomEQWizard has been updated so it can be used in place of HOLMImpulse for that portion of these instructions?

BTW in the interest of making the instructions accurate, I submit a correction to the entry at Reply #3 of this thread.
"3) REW will only generate up to 20 filters, but will generate fewer if it doesn't need all 20.  If REW generates 20 filters for your response it probably actually needs more than 20, and you might want to consider generating the filters in two batches (bottom of the range to 600KHz, 601KHz to 10KHz, etc.)" At issue is 600KHz & 601KHz.

Thanks,
Kev
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mattkhan

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Re: Guide to Speaker/Room Correction Using Freeware and JRiver
« Reply #155 on: March 29, 2018, 09:45:05 am »

REW does everything that holm can do these days and a whole lot more so personally I would use REW for everything. Holm still works fine though so no harm in using it. Neither piece of software cares which mic you use.
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mwillems

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Re: Guide to Speaker/Room Correction Using Freeware and JRiver
« Reply #156 on: March 29, 2018, 06:02:25 pm »

I am about to jump into this & am wondering if the info about HOLMImpulse is all still relevant. HOLMImpulse is no longer supported & they no longer sell the mic they use (HOLM MIC 1). The MIC 1 is not a USB Mic as is the mic recommended for use with REW (miniDSP UMIK-1). I am wondering if RoomEQWizard has been updated so it can be used in place of HOLMImpulse for that portion of these instructions?

As mattkhan noted there's no harm in using Holm with a different mic, or just using REW for everything as it now supports Frequency Dependent Windowing.  At some point I may re-work the guide as a 100% REW solution, but I have a small child so major re-works have been a long time coming  :-[

Quote

BTW in the interest of making the instructions accurate, I submit a correction to the entry at Reply #3 of this thread.
"3) REW will only generate up to 20 filters, but will generate fewer if it doesn't need all 20.  If REW generates 20 filters for your response it probably actually needs more than 20, and you might want to consider generating the filters in two batches (bottom of the range to 600KHz, 601KHz to 10KHz, etc.)" At issue is 600KHz & 601KHz.

Thanks,
Kev

Great catch, I just fixed it.
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Manfred

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Re: Guide to Speaker/Room Correction Using Freeware and JRiver
« Reply #157 on: April 29, 2018, 06:20:30 am »

I am using Win 10 x64, I had to enable under App's-> Programs & Features->Windows Features activate or deactivate -> enable: .Net Framework 3.5 (contains .Net 2.0), the manual installation of the .NET framework 2.0 always failed. After that I could install HOLMImpulse x64.
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robspierre

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Re: Guide to Speaker/Room Correction Using Freeware and JRiver
« Reply #158 on: June 25, 2018, 02:10:33 pm »

Beware: Newbie post! This is great stuff! Is anyone aware of a free 1/3 octave graphic equalizer plug-in that works with JR 24/64 with separate faders for left and right channels?

Also, a point of interest rather than contention: I believe if available a calibrated omnidirectional microphone is optimum. I'm just sayin...
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mattkhan

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Re: Guide to Speaker/Room Correction Using Freeware and JRiver
« Reply #159 on: June 25, 2018, 03:23:16 pm »

What does the "just sayin" refer to exactly? The fact that point 2 in the OP doesn't mention omni when it refers to a mic?

Not sure if https://www.voxengo.com/product/marvelgeq/ does what you want.
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cyberkul

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Re: Guide to Speaker/Room Correction Using Freeware and JRiver
« Reply #160 on: August 12, 2018, 05:30:02 am »

(I plan to address subwoofers and active crossovers for bi-amping in a later guide). 

Hi!
Thanks for the excellent guide! I think I should do my measurements again, and try to separate the speakers from the room, as you explain in your guide. I`m not sure if the later guide is a work in progress or not? Anyway, though this is an old thread I hope it is ok to ask some questions?

1. I want to use software linear-phase crossovers, but I`m not sure where in the sequence the crossovers should be created? Maybe just before doing the Phase Correction?

2. I`m using a BR cabinet with 2 15" elements for bass/midbass, horns for the midrange and treble. The midrange horn is a JBL 2360 with 2446 driver, and the treble horn is a JBL 2404. The midrange need to be attenuated maybe 10-12 dB, and the treble about 5 dB compared to the midbass. Can the Rephase matching tool be used for this, or should I use some attenuation between the RME soundcard and amps? Also, both the midrange and treble rolls off rather steeply, so at the top of their ranges not so much attenuation is needed.

So far I`ve been using a Minidsp 4x10HD for crossovers and EQing. REW for all measurements. It works well, and it is nice to be able to do corrections in real time. But it is not completely quiet, there is some hissing from the midrange and treble horns. The amps are Anaview class D, AMS100 for treble and midrange, and AMS1000 for bass.

Also, some Audiolense users that used Minidsp before say that the sound quality is better. I might end up with audiolense/JRiver, but I would like to use these free tools first to learn a little bit.



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mwillems

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Re: Guide to Speaker/Room Correction Using Freeware and JRiver
« Reply #161 on: August 12, 2018, 10:38:04 am »

Hi!
Thanks for the excellent guide! I think I should do my measurements again, and try to separate the speakers from the room, as you explain in your guide. I`m not sure if the later guide is a work in progress or not? Anyway, though this is an old thread I hope it is ok to ask some questions?

My wife and I had a child shortly after this guide was prepared so the bi-amping guide got shelved regrettably (much less time with a quiet house where I can setup microphones)

Quote
1. I want to use software linear-phase crossovers, but I`m not sure where in the sequence the crossovers should be created? Maybe just before doing the Phase Correction?

If you're using linear phase crossovers, they need to be applied through convolution.  There's only one convolution "slot" in jriver, so you'll need to combine the linear phase crossovers and phase correction into the same convolution file and do both at once.

Quote
2. I`m using a BR cabinet with 2 15" elements for bass/midbass, horns for the midrange and treble. The midrange horn is a JBL 2360 with 2446 driver, and the treble horn is a JBL 2404. The midrange need to be attenuated maybe 10-12 dB, and the treble about 5 dB compared to the midbass. Can the Rephase matching tool be used for this, or should I use some attenuation between the RME soundcard and amps? Also, both the midrange and treble rolls off rather steeply, so at the top of their ranges not so much attenuation is needed.

I'd be tempted to just do the attentuation in JRiver's parametric EQ myself rather than trying to do it in convolution.

Quote
So far I`ve been using a Minidsp 4x10HD for crossovers and EQing. REW for all measurements. It works well, and it is nice to be able to do corrections in real time. But it is not completely quiet, there is some hissing from the midrange and treble horns. The amps are Anaview class D, AMS100 for treble and midrange, and AMS1000 for bass.

Also, some Audiolense users that used Minidsp before say that the sound quality is better. I might end up with audiolense/JRiver, but I would like to use these free tools first to learn a little bit.

Just keep in mind that if you migrate away from the MiniDSP you'll need to find a suitable multi-channel DAC to use in its place.  I've been tinkering with a minidsp for a side-use, and I can say that putting a 10dB in-line attenuator between the MiniDSP and the amps does wonders for reducing the hiss.
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cyberkul

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Re: Guide to Speaker/Room Correction Using Freeware and JRiver
« Reply #162 on: August 13, 2018, 04:11:37 am »

Thanks! I already have a RME Fireface 800 (and an even older RME Multiface)
interface, so Iím able to compare with the Minidsp.
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Waterford853

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Re: Guide to Speaker/Room Correction Using Freeware and JRiver
« Reply #163 on: March 31, 2019, 06:46:36 pm »

Hi all - trying to get started with this process and failed out of the gate.  I suspect it is something very simple.

I followed the latest guide on installing the various software and drivers to create a loop (REW, MC, WDM driver, HiFiCable driver).  https://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/Verifying_DSP_Studio

From there, I see that MC get the signal from REW but i get no sound from my amp.  The blogs mention an IPC zone showing up but I do not see a zone created so I am trying to simply configure the Player zone to play the IPC since I see it listed in the playlist.    This (again) seems correct.

My signal path is: MC23--> wireless feed to uPNP endpoint (Auralic Mini) with an external DAC attached.  I can stream music just fine to the Auralic but this IPC file will not broadcast to it.  I have verified the settings in the guide.  I don't need to hardware from the PC (sound card) to the amp with RCA's, do I?  I thought my PC sound card was not used in this process.

Any thoughts? :P
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mwillems

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Re: Guide to Speaker/Room Correction Using Freeware and JRiver
« Reply #164 on: March 31, 2019, 08:31:23 pm »

Hi all - trying to get started with this process and failed out of the gate.  I suspect it is something very simple.

I followed the latest guide on installing the various software and drivers to create a loop (REW, MC, WDM driver, HiFiCable driver).  https://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/Verifying_DSP_Studio

From there, I see that MC get the signal from REW but i get no sound from my amp.  The blogs mention an IPC zone showing up but I do not see a zone created so I am trying to simply configure the Player zone to play the IPC since I see it listed in the playlist.    This (again) seems correct.

My signal path is: MC23--> wireless feed to uPNP endpoint (Auralic Mini) with an external DAC attached.  I can stream music just fine to the Auralic but this IPC file will not broadcast to it.  I have verified the settings in the guide.  I don't need to hardware from the PC (sound card) to the amp with RCA's, do I?  I thought my PC sound card was not used in this process.

Any thoughts? :P

If I recall correctly, there's no way to get the WDM input to stream via the network (it's not supported), so I think that's the issue you're seeing.  I'd suggest creating a thread on the MC25 forum asking directly about that issue to confirm, but I'm fairly sure that's not supported. 

If you want to be able to use the WDM driver, you'll probably need to have the computer directly connected to the DAC (not via the network).  If you're just using it for this guide, you could hook it up temporarily, and then, once you get your DSP tuned, you could apply DSP settings to DLNA output for media played directly in JRiver.  But that wouldn't help you if you actually want to use the WDM driver for media as opposed to just testing.
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spalmgre

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Re: Guide to Speaker/Room Correction Using Freeware and JRiver
« Reply #165 on: July 03, 2019, 01:42:44 am »

There has been mentioned that REW does not support " frequency dependent windowing (FRD)". This might have been the case at the time of the writing. But we live in a world of upgrades. So I would like to see version numbers mentioned when referring to different software and their capabilities.

This would help to put things in perspective when reading the given advice now several years after the thread was written.
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burnhamjs

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Re: Guide to Speaker/Room Correction Using Freeware and JRiver
« Reply #166 on: January 14, 2020, 12:33:57 pm »

I understand this is more of a REW question but it directly relates to this post, so I thought i'd check here first.

I want to do all my checks within REW.  If I take 2 measurements of a speaker (let's say on-axis 3" from tweeter and on-axis 3" from woofer), what is the best way of stitching the 2 measurements together in REW - do I "Average the responses" or use the "Merge" function?

Also for adjusting the raw response using the IR window, I think I use check the "Add Frequency dependent window"  and select a Width in octaves of 1/12, but I'm not sure what the other settings should be.  Do I set the left window to the impulse peak, then the right window for 5ms?  I understand the longer I have the window the more resolution I will get, but allows for more reflections - though at 3" and 1' measurements I'm not sure how critical this is).    Lastly, I have no idea what the "tukey" settings are - do I leave these at default?
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High-End

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Re: Guide to Speaker/Room Correction Using Freeware and JRiver
« Reply #167 on: June 11, 2020, 09:24:08 am »

It is already some years ago that this HowTo was written.
I want to measure a new room with my speakers.
My HiFi consists: HTPC(win10_64)/MC - DAC - preamplifier - active X-over - 3x power amplifier - speakers

As mentioned in this HowTo, I've got some measuring tools:
Hardware:
* "MiniDSP UMIK-1" USB Microphones
software:
* Holm Impulse
* Room EQ Wizard
* RePhase

Can I simply install the software on my HTPC and then perform the measurements with the UMIK-1 through my HiFi? Or do I need additional external hardware?

The plan is to integrate the measurement results into MC.
Later, when I order the Hypex "FusionAmp FA253", I will integrate the measurement results into the Hypex.
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mwillems

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Re: Guide to Speaker/Room Correction Using Freeware and JRiver
« Reply #168 on: June 11, 2020, 09:25:43 am »

It is already some years ago that this HowTo was written.
I want to measure a new room with my speakers.
My HiFi consists: HTPC/MC - DAC - preamplifier - active X-over - 3x power amplifier - speakers

As mentioned in this HowTo, I've got some measuring tools:
Hardware:
* "MiniDSP UMIK-1" USB Microphones
software:
* Holm Impulse
* Room EQ Wizard
* RePhase

Can I simply install the software on my HTPC and then perform the measurements with the UMIK-1 through my HiFi? Or do I need additional external hardware?

The plan is to integrate the measurement results into MC.
Later, when I order the Hypex "FusionAmp FA253", I will integrate the measurement results into the Hypex.

You shouldn't need any additional hardware if you're planning to use your PC as your sound source.
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High-End

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Re: Guide to Speaker/Room Correction Using Freeware and JRiver
« Reply #169 on: June 11, 2020, 12:41:24 pm »

Thank you!
Then I'll read up on the subject and this thread.
 ;)
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High-End

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Re: Guide to Speaker/Room Correction Using Freeware and JRiver
« Reply #170 on: June 11, 2020, 02:01:09 pm »

Almost all JRiver DSP is disabled when you're bitstreaming, so the short answer is that you'd need to disable bitstreaming and do the decoding in JRiver to use this guide.  ...

Long time ago this quote ;-)
I do have a couple of DSD files. Is your statement still true?
If this is the cast how do I handle room correction and DSD files?
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mwillems

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Re: Guide to Speaker/Room Correction Using Freeware and JRiver
« Reply #171 on: June 11, 2020, 04:16:05 pm »

Long time ago this quote ;-)
I do have a couple of DSD files. Is your statement still true?
If this is the cast how do I handle room correction and DSD files?

I don't have any DSD content, so I can't speak from personal experience, but my recollection is that you'll need to output in DOP to have DSP applied.  My understanding is that doing that requires a conversion to PCM in the middle.  I don't think there's any way (technically) to do DSP on native DSD, and bitstreaming, by definition, disables signal processing.

You'd almost certainly get a more informed answer asking about using DSP with DSD on the main forums, though!
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High-End

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Re: Guide to Speaker/Room Correction Using Freeware and JRiver
« Reply #172 on: June 11, 2020, 11:03:22 pm »

Thank you!
I'm worried that you're right about your DoP assessment. I'm gonna have to get smarter about this.
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