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[webbhq]

OK I have been using from a stockpile of Maxell CD-R Pro but a computer technician suggested the disc could make a difference and so which brand do you experts prefer or is it a commodity?  Thanks. I'm just catching up.

[Steelydanfan]

Hi, I am fairly new to JRiver, I am ripping all of my original CD's plus a fair number of CD-R music copies that I have accumulated over the years.

I used to rip and burn CD's from a stand alone Marantz CVD recorder, it did a great job, I  just don't need it anymore since I  switched to a HD based music server.

I used blank ( always music ) CD's from Memorex, TDK, Sony, Maxell, and Kodak over the years, and they all sounded great. And they also  all wore out eventually in my 2 Sony CD mega changers under heavy use. I found no sonic differences between all of the blank CD brands.

I will only note that I always used blank CD's  that stated "music" on them, as data CD's will not play in  some CD players at all.

[JimH]

The media (CD) is the same, whether it's used to burn audio or data CD's.  Some devices won't play discs unless they have been "closed" (a burn function).  Some devices won't play data CD's.

[kstuart]

OK I have been using from a stockpile of Maxell CD-R Pro but a computer technician suggested the disc could make a difference and so which brand do you experts prefer or is it a commodity?  Thanks. I'm just catching up.

Back when I used to research such things, Maxell CD-R Pro was about the best you could get.

[glynor]

Taiyo Yuden.

[kotani]

Taiyo Yuden.

Back when I used to burn audio cd's, Taiyo Yuden were the CD-R's that I used.
As for the burner, I used a Plextor Premium, and eventually a Premium 2.

The different media quality, and burn speed and burner can really affect jitter and C1/C2 errors.
I can't remember many of the specifics because I haven't burned cd's in a long time, but it's worth reading up on it if you are interested in burning top quality cd-r's. Searching for Jitter, and C1/C2 Errors for burning CD-R's should yield some good sources.

[kstuart]

Taiyo Yuden.

That's who made the Maxell CD-R Pro.

[jctcom]

I don't burn much of anything anymore.  Much like most of the people on here I have gone all digital.

However when I did  burn and it was important I have used Verbatim.  These have long been reviewed as the most compatible and long lasting.

Whatever you do stay away from Philips.  Nothing but problems with those.

Carl.

[glynor]

That's who made the Maxell CD-R Pro.

Sometimes, yes.

I found, consistently, a good place to get them for decent pricing was actually DiscMakers.  Their Ultra DVD-Rs were all Taiyo.

I don't burn discs in bulk anymore, but I used to with a big duplicator.

Quality of disc is irrelevant once the disc is burned.  Those errors are either correctable (and the burn succeeds) or they're not (and the burn fails).  All burners and media will have some level of errors.

However, I definitely found that for:

* Playback compatibility (not choking up on certain crappy laptop slim-profile drives ...cough, Lenovo, cough...)
* Avoiding coasters (burn failures)

For these things, the Taiyo Yuden discs were always the best by-far.  Verbatim also made decent media, though their quality could fluctuate.

The problem with most of the other media "brands" (which aren't actually OEMs, but just people rebranding other discs in almost all cases) was that they weren't consistent.  You'd buy them once and they'd be one kind, and again and they'd be another.  I even found stacks of discs that switched media (blatantly obviously, with a totally different dye color) mid-package.

I haven't burned a disc now in probably 18-24 months though, so I can't speak to any recent developments.

[bob]

How about the archival quality discs, usually with a gold and or silver layer?
I've been considering some of these for archival photo storage.
I see mitsui, kodak and verbatim make them.

I've heard some pretty negative things about a lot of the consumer discs these days and I have noticed that some of my oldest recorded discs (mostly dvd's but some cd's) don't work 100% any more. It may be a coincidence but the oldest discs's I have, mostly kodak with gold or silver gold layers seem flawless.

[glynor]

I can't say for sure, but I'd be shocked if that made any difference.

With burned optical discs, the way it basically works is that there is a reflective layer (that would be the gold or silver layer, or whatever) and then a dye layer above it, and then the disc substrate.

The burning laser "burns away" the dye layer, exposing the reflective layer underneath.
The reading laser is "blocked" by the dye layer, and only "gets through" to the reflective layer where the burning laser cut through the dye, to make the pits.

The layer that is sensitive to damage is typically the dye layer, not the reflective layer.  In bad-old-discs, the reflective layer would sometimes "peel" and become unusable, but I think that problem was solved back in the days of 4x CD-Rs.  The dye layer is light-sensitive.  That should be somewhat obvious as it is a laser that is used to cut it, but basically... Sunlight is the enemy.

But the problem is with the dye, not the reflective layer underneath.  Different manufacturers used different proprietary dye formulations.  Often this was the reason Taiyo Yuden was strongly recommended... They had the best dye.

I suppose some could corrode maybe in very moist conditions or something, but I suspect you'd be more likely to encounter problems in these cases with actual trapped moisture (between layers) and you'd be sunk anyhow.

Burned discs absolutely DO degrade in storage, but the most important factors are:

1. sunlight exposure
2. the dye used in the media
3. temperature of storage (consistent is best, fluctuating to hot is bad)
4. moisture/humidity (dry is obviously best)

I think the importance is roughly in that order.  But, again, all my info is pretty old.  I was at one time extremely well-researched, though.

[glynor]

I looked it up, because you made me curious.

Most write-once optical media discs use aluminum as the reflective layer.  In theory, gold reflective layers would be superior because aluminum can corrode in certain circumstances.  Silver is actually "bad" (again, in theory) because it reacts with the dye used in some types of discs (though one would assume the manufacturer isn't a moron and wouldn't use silver with these dyes).

Gold is "best".

However, what I wrote before is absolutely true, and the differences above will never make a difference for longevity in the real world because:

1. The dye layer is reactive in the same ways as aluminum and silver.
2. The dye layer will degrade in poor conditions 1000x more rapidly than the reflective layer.

So, if you have a disc so badly stored that gold would have saved you?  It wouldn't matter because that dye layer is long-gone.

[bob]

I looked it up, because you made me curious.

Most write-once optical media discs use aluminum as the reflective layer.  In theory, gold reflective layers would be superior because aluminum can corrode in certain circumstances.  Silver is actually "bad" (again, in theory) because it reacts with the dye used in some types of discs (though one would assume the manufacturer isn't a moron and wouldn't use silver with these dyes).

Gold is "best".

However, what I wrote before is absolutely true, and the differences above will never make a difference for longevity in the real world because:

1. The dye layer is reactive in the same ways as aluminum and silver.
2. The dye layer will degrade in poor conditions 1000x more rapidly than the reflective layer.

So, if you have a disc so badly stored that gold would have saved you?  It wouldn't matter because that dye layer is long-gone.

Thanks for the explanation.
The only other thing I'm thinking about it the aluminum layer. Since aluminum reacts immediately with oxygen (to form Aluminum Oxide) and the layer is only a few molecules thick, I'd think that would be of some concern.
My experience from this comes from telescope optics which use aluminum with an overcoating of something else depending on optician.
Eventually, the mirror needs to be recoated, usually stated as about 7 years.
The other experience I've got is with laserdiscs that I have that are over 20 years old. Many of them definitely are degrading. Since there is no dye involved in these cases, the culprit is the destruction of the aluminum layer.
Apparently the early plastics had some issues with oxygen permeability but I don't think there are any plastics that are totally impermeable to oxygen.

[Sparks67]

I have tried several major brands, (Kodak, Maxell, TDK, Verbatim and Ritek).  Here is a website that lists the major brands and the die coatings that they use.  http://www.cdmediaworld.com/hardware/cdrom/cd_dye.shtml
I prefer Ritek of all the major brands, but it takes a quality burner like an older Plextor.   

[glynor]

Thanks for the explanation.
The only other thing I'm thinking about it the aluminum layer. Since aluminum reacts immediately with oxygen (to form Aluminum Oxide) and the layer is only a few molecules thick, I'd think that would be of some concern.
My experience from this comes from telescope optics which use aluminum with an overcoating of something else depending on optician.
Eventually, the mirror needs to be recoated, usually stated as about 7 years.

Apparently the early plastics had some issues with oxygen permeability but I don't think there are any plastics that are totally impermeable to oxygen.

Exactly.

The difference between your telescope and the aluminum reflective layer is, of course, that the disc's is coated in polymer, protecting it from the corrosive effects of oxygen.  You're right that they're not totally impervious, which is why the reflective layer does degrade (and why gold is theoretically superior).  Silver would also work if it didn't apparently react with some of the dyes used, but that could probably be worked around by using a silver alloy of some kind (or using different dye).

I'm not sure why early discs had reflective layer issues, but permeability sounds like a plausible explanation, by the way.  I remember they'd develop tiny holes and actually eventually "flake" and peel up.

But, the point is that this is no longer an issue, and the lifespan of the reflective layer, even an aluminum one, will far outlast the dye layer.  So, there's really no point to using a fancier reflective layer.  The dye will be gone long before the aluminum is degraded enough to matter.

The other experience I've got is with laserdiscs that I have that are over 20 years old. Many of them definitely are degrading. Since there is no dye involved in these cases, the culprit is the destruction of the aluminum layer.

Non-burnable discs don't use dye layers at all, and have two reflective layers.  The top one has "holes" in it that let the laser read through to the lower layer (and then it reads the difference in the two signals when reflected).  So, in these cases, yes, the reflective layer would matter the most.  Of course, modern pressed discs are quite resilient, and should far outlast your old laser discs.

Burned discs?  I would start "not trusting" them at something near 5 years, in my experience.  You can probably stretch it out much longer if you are VERY careful about how you store them, but in my old optical archives, I'd see something like 1-in-20 fail (stored on a shelf, in a 3-ring binder, in nice CD sleeves, in an office building) after something like 5-6 years.

Those old archives were mostly done with Verbatim media, so maybe they were just poor examples, but I've seen life-expectancy real-world tests online that show 10 years is about the best you can hope for...

Again, I haven't followed along in years, so... This could all be wrong replaced with some super-fancy new dye and whatever.  But, the physics of it are difficult (you want to "erase" the dye with light, but not have light/heat/energy degrade it), so I'm a bit skeptical, especially considering the price point and the associated R&D budgets.

[kstuart]

BTW, the terms "archival" and "media" are contradictory. 

It's not how long the media lasts, it is how long the reader lasts.

I still have an 8 inch floppy disk, but I have not seen a reader for way over 30 years...

[JimH]

I have one if you want to borrow it.  It came with my Corvus 10 MB hard disk drive.

[webbhq]

Thank you to everybody who chimed in with your advice and expertise I appreciate it very much.

[glynor]

I still have an 8 inch floppy disk, but I have not seen a reader for way over 30 years...

That's true, but...

There is a big difference in the scale of deployment with 8-inch floppy discs (and ZIP disks and MiniDiscs and DAT tapes and so on and so forth).  We've sold a metric ton of computers with optical disc drives over the past 25 years or so that they've been prevalent.  I bet there were points where they were selling more computers in a single day with optical drives than were ever sold combined with 8-inch floppies.

That's called a hockey-stick growth curve, and it is why Bill Gates runs a foundation and fights childhood malaria.

So, while it might be getting a little hard to find a player for your minidiscs and even 5 1/4 inch floppies are probably mostly found on eBay and Craigslist, you can still buy a brand-new turntable for entirely too much money.  And, I suspect, that optical media (CD and DVD, if nothing else) will have a similarly long-tail.  If only because of sheer volume.  Even if they stop making them entirely, there are just so many out there, that I don't think it will become a serious challenge to find one if you want one within my lifetime.

It is far more likely that it'll become challenging to find a way to hook it up to a computer, but a USB > PATA/SATA cable dongle will last a long time and until they break USB backwards compatibility or abandon it entirely, and all of the computers that support the old standard break, I think it has a pretty long-tail.

On the other hand, of course, will software even read the file formats anymore?  Who knows?  (Certainly not if it has DRM, which is my main problem with DRM.)  Stuff does die, and sometimes unexpectedly.  And, if you're saying "archival" needs to be available like the Bill of Rights... Not forever, but 150 years or longer?  Well, then, obviously you're right.

I bet it'll be a long-long time, though, before it will become impossible to transfer your old collection of pressed CDs and DVDs, assuming you can store them well, to whatever new whiz-bang three-dimensional data cube of the future we have that we plug directly into our abdomens, or whatever.  I could be wrong, and I agree it is generally laughable that they call dye-based discs archival, but...

I guess I'd say the concept of archival storage is a bit outmoded.  Computer filesystems absolutely have their problems, and we're going to have a lot of stumbling blocks getting there, but...  If we don't hit some crazy physical wall that it is impossible by any means to surpass, or we blow ourselves into the stone age, storage density will eventually hit the point where it is possible to store the position of every atom in the universe (or something that gives us practically that kind of power).  All storage will eventually become indistinguishable from the network, and will be infinite and everlasting.

We no longer need to keep data forever in one medium.  We need to keep it long enough, and in a convenient enough format, that it is possible to migrate to future storage systems, until the problem is solved forever.

[Sparks67]

Burned discs?  I would start "not trusting" them at something near 5 years, in my experience.  You can probably stretch it out much longer if you are VERY careful about how you store them, but in my old optical archives, I'd see something like 1-in-20 fail (stored on a shelf, in a 3-ring binder, in nice CD sleeves, in an office building) after something like 5-6 years.

Those old archives were mostly done with Verbatim media, so maybe they were just poor examples, but I've seen life-expectancy real-world tests online that show 10 years is about the best you can hope for...

I have all my CD-r discs in separate jewel boxes, which are stored in the basement.  I also have them stored in another container, that hold about 150 discs.  The basement is dry year around and temperature averages around 55F. When I burnt my CD-R's, I used EAC and Plextor drives.  Actually, my first Plextor CD-R burner had the caddy. It took around 20 minutes to burn one CD-R.  I upgraded to a faster Plextor, but they are the best drives in the past.   My collection is around 10 to 14 years old, but I recently had to do a new backup in the past few months, because of 2 different backup hard drives failed. I was doing a backup from an Acrea Raid 6 (1261) card, and backup up the hard drives. (As for brands of Hard drives, these were Seagate)  Although, I had other brands to fail in the past (WD, and Seagate), and that includes both consumer and enterprise drives.   My new raid 6 is a new Areca ARC-1882ix-16, with Enterprise drives.  

As for backup from CD to hard drive then I use the Nimbie.  It would be nice if JRiver had that option, but for CD I have a nimbie and use dbpoweramp batch ripper to rip to Wav, so I can take my CD's and rip to hard drive rather quickly.  If I depended on Hard drive as backup, then I would have lost my entire collection.   I had a failure rate of around .5% of CD's. (I can live with that failure rate). Optical storage is still my best option.  

Long term storage?
Hitachi is developing a new long term storage solution.  http://www.infostor.com/blogs_new/henry_newman/stranger-than-fiction-hitachi-discusses-holographic-storage.html
Hitachi has some IEEE presentations on that site, but here is one that talks about Hard  Drive storage is disaster for backup.  http://www.storageconference.org/2013/Presentations/Watanabi.pdf   Actually, the Holographic disc is great news for us with large collections.  The only solution now is Bluray...

Hard disc is great for storing our media to play with JRiver, but hard disc is not a long term backup solution.

[Sparks67]

That's true, but...

There is a big difference in the scale of deployment with 8-inch floppy discs.

Actually, I used to be on BBS back in the 1984 and it was run by 2 Altair 8-floppy disc drives.  He later upgraded to a 10 Mb hard disc drive. 

[elderavelas]

HDTT, High Definition Tape Transfers, burn their HQCD on CD-R's from Taiyo Yuden. They claim these CD-R's are the best available.
You can buy blanks from HDTT online store:

http://www.highdeftapetransfers.com/hqcd-recording-blanks-w16.php

[bob]

What do you all think about this? Look ma, no dye?

http://www.mdisc.com/

[Hendrik]

What do you all think about this? Look ma, no dye?

http://www.mdisc.com/

All I can ask is how do you prove something lasts for 1000 years without 1000 years to test your theory?

[bob]

All I can ask is how do you prove something lasts for 1000 years without 1000 years to test your theory?

That raised a my eyebrows a bit too but I used to do some non-destructive materials testing in a previous life and there are simulations of the effects of degradation over time that can be done.