Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[jmone]

Well that was weird.  Did the update and found a bunch of issues like:
- LSI/IBM M1015 driver failed to load
- My User Account was black but responsive - eg I could bring up the Cntl-Alt-Del window but that was all I could see.  My admin login was fine
- NW connectivity was working but was reporting an error (Intel I350)

I tried multiple reboots, remove/update drivers for the LSI/IBM driver but no avail.  Finally went into Safe Mode and did it again and it seemed the same but then on some more reboots it just "Came Good".  

Very Very Odd

Sometime I hate computers!

[Hendrik]

I didn't encounter any problems after the update.

[jmone]

Still having issues post another reboot, lost my LSI controller again and it is very slow to load the desktop (eg minutes of black screen).  Some driver is not playing well - Trying the latest NVidia Beta Driver....

Edit - I should say there were no issues on my Laptop with the upgrade

[jmone]

Thankfully the restore point worked!  Now to do the updates one at a time 

[astromo]

One issue that multiple PC owners can have is burning download of the same stuff over and over using the onboard Windows Update function.

There are undoubtedly more options out there but I found this guide that includes the relevant .msu download links:
http://www.extremetech.com/computing/178091-how-to-download-and-install-windows-8-1-update-1-for-free-right-now

Sharing is caring.. 

Oh and jmone thanks for the tip to take it in steps. Have had similar experience trying to do too much at once.

[jmone]

I've not yet done the Win 8.1 Update on this PC again yet (did all the other ones) as I needed to use it for now!  I'll be holding fire to see if there are any other reports on the SATA card...

[astromo]

SATA card? Ex-squeeze me baking powder?

Oh and also thanks for the reminder around the restore point. Never hurts to be go DIY rather than assume the OS takes care of things for you.

As another side note, I've given WSUS Offline a crack to automate downloading and updating but I find it can be a bit hit and miss. I blame my lack of computer geekness and their poor documentation. It does help lighten the load though.

[jmone]

Uggg I've narrowed it down.  It is The LSI Adapter (SAS2 2008 Falcon), most of the time from a reboot it gets a "This device cannot start" Code 10 error in Device Manager in Windows" which of course causes grief for DB / MC etc etc

If I remove the device in Device Manager then rescan it add the drive back and loads it up fine.  I've tried:
- Updating my Mobo Firmware
- The LSI Firmware / BIOS
- The LSI Driver

...but same thing.  If I roll-back to Win8.1 pre the update it all works.  Any advice?

Thanks
Nathan

[apgood]

Is there anything additional in the event logs (probably the system one)?  Which pcie slot is it in? If it's in the first one try putting it in the 2nd on which is normally x8 max and probably only pcie 2.0. That might make a difference if there is a change in the way pcie devices are being handled. You could also see in mb bios if it's possible to force x8 for the pcie slot and a particular version of pcie I.e. to match version of the card e.g. 2.0

[jmone]

Interesting - in the log I've got alot of
- Critical Kernel-Power entries saying the "system has rebooted without cleanly shutting down" that matches my reboots which is very odd.
- VHyperDrive5 errors
- and as expected a "driver detected a controller error on \Device\RaidPort0" for LSI_SAS2
- Windows failed fast startup with error status 0xC00000D4

+ more

I wonder if my PSU is stuggling.... (a one year old 850w Lian Li modular PSU).

[Hendrik]

Could always hope for a new driver coming out some time soon, and/or try contacting the manufacturer of that card.

[glynor]

Sorry bub.  I got almost nothing.

Could always hope for a new driver coming out some time soon, and/or try contacting the manufacturer of that card.

+1?

Also, many RAID cards don't support Windows Fast Boot well (and you referenced an error there).  You might try just turning that off.

[apgood]

Interesting - in the log I've got alot of
- Critical Kernel-Power entries saying the "system has rebooted without cleanly shutting down" that matches my reboots which is very odd.
- VHyperDrive5 errors
- and as expected a "driver detected a controller error on \Device\RaidPort0" for LSI_SAS2
- Windows failed fast startup with error status 0xC00000D4

+ more

I wonder if my PSU is stuggling.... (a one year old 850w Lian Li modular PSU).

How many hard drives do you have in that PC? If you have a lot of hard drives then you will want a single rail PSU or at least a lot of amps available on the 12v rail that the hard drives are attached to because a lot of high watt PSU are geared towards supplying power to power hungry GPUs and CPU not lots of hard drives.  This can lead to some weird hard to track down problems. Especially at boot when everything is powering up at the same time and some things might not be getting enough power.  Could explain why the card fails a startup but is OK if you re-add it when PC is already running.

While it might not be directly related you never know.  Quite a bit about PSU's on unraid forums that might be useful if you think you might need a new PSU.

Reason it may not be an issue pre update is that MS may have tweaked the startup process and as a result trying to load the SAS controller while it's still underpowered and flaky.

[jmone]

I run in this box:
- up to 10 x 4TB 7200rpm Hitachi DeskStars (normally 9 with a spare)
- 1 x SSD
- GTX 750 GPU
- up to 3 x Sata BD drives (normally 2)
+ usual USB stuff

I too was thinking that it could be the PS on the way out so I vacumed it all out, reseated cables etc. 

I also went into Safe Mode and added/removed drivers etc

... and it is working perfectly after the first few reboots -  

I guess I'll see how it goes and the next step would be to replace the Lian-Li S850 PSU to see if it is a power stability issue during boot up as you say.  Was thinking something like the Corsair AX760 as I need plenty of Molex cables to drive the Drive the HDD Back Plane.

Thanks
Nathan

[jmone]

Bit more testing, At present Cold Boots are OK be a Restart is till causing the issue. 

[apgood]

With that many hd's you definitely want a single rail PSU.  For the HD's a 550 single rail PSU would be fine but assume with the GPU in there you probably need more umpf.  Don't worry too much about the number of molex connectors on the PSU. It's the number or amps on the 12v rail they are connected to that's important. It should be on the PSU label.

One like this would probably do the job nicely.  http://ijk.com.au/branch/ijk/product_info.php?cPath=23_41&products_id=147966

It can deliver 62 amps to the 12v rail. That should be plenty without starving the rest. If you have a power meter you also could plug it in to see how many watts your PC draws that should give you an indication whether your PC is maxing a 750 watt PSU and need to go higher or just the 12v rail.

By the way where do you normally get your PC gear from in Sydney? Or do normally get it online?

[jmone]

Thanks - I'm normally impatient so just hit up MSY, ARC etc (though all my HDD came from B&H Photo as you can plan ahead and there were much cheaper).  I'll look at picking something up on Monday.  I'll check our your recommendations.
Thanks
Nathan

[Hendrik]

Single Rail vs. Multi Rail doesn't really do what you think it does. A 850w PSU is plenty to power a couple of drives, no matter how its rails are configured, and if it would be shutting down due to too high draw, you would notice it in a less subtle way.

[RoderickGI]

I run in this box:
- up to 10 x 4TB 7200rpm Hitachi DeskStars (normally 9 with a spare)
- 1 x SSD
- GTX 750 GPU
- up to 3 x Sata BD drives (normally 2)
+ usual USB stuff

If you are doing a new power supply selection or evaluation I recommend using the calculator at http://extreme.outervision.com/psucalculator.jsp

You will need the Pro version to see the amperage on each rail, but it isn't expensive. I bought the life time licence some years ago and have made use of it several times since. I ran your rough configuration above through it, guessed an Intel Core i7-4770K 3500 MHz Haswell CPU (overkill, I know) and two sticks of DDR3 memory, tuner, four USB device, and a few fans. The result is in the attached image.

[apgood]

Single Rail vs. Multi Rail doesn't really do what you think it does. A 850w PSU is plenty to power a couple of drives, no matter how its rails are configured, and if it would be shutting down due to too high draw, you would notice it in a less subtle way.

From experience I can tell that's not the case. There are a variety of things that can happen that just make your other hardware seem to be flakey. 

Single and multi rails are used for a variety of reasons e.g. in multi GPU situations it is useful to have multi rails because each GPU is on a separate rail, but the issue with multi rails PSU's is that normally all the molex connectors come from the same 12v rail and this can be an issue when all the HD's and fans spin up at full power on startup.  Check some of the forum site that focus on storage servers you'll see plenty of information about the topic of PSU's.

[apgood]

Thanks - I'm normally impatient so just hit up MSY, ARC etc (though all my HDD came from B&H Photo as you can plan ahead and there were much cheaper).  I'll look at picking something up on Monday.  I'll check our your recommendations.
Thanks
Nathan

OK cool thanks.

Yeah me too. I prefer to just buy it from a shop that has it in stock and pick it up. I find IJK is in Einfield pretty cheap and good availability, the fact it isn't too far from where I work doesn't hurt either. If really lazy just go to one of the shops in Chatswood and get them to price match IJK.

[jmone]

Wow - Neat little prog, fill it in gives me a much higher setup (see pic), which I assume is a theorical maxium the PC could demand more than what you typically see.  For example, I also run a "Ghetto UPS" system to provide power to my setup (includes not only the PC & Monitors but also the mains comms equipment like the Router / Switch).  According to the Watt Meter I have in line I'm currently pulling for all these devices:
- Around 50w with the PC Off
- Under 300w as I type this
- Under 400w during a cold boot up

So the PSU is really only pulling at most 350w

One downside of the UPS setup is the voltage is a high 250v output (due to a high mains voltage, running the battery charger at 13.8 volts, and having a "240v" not "230v" inverter)... FYI  in speaking with a the power authority, I found out that:
- Australia was 240v +/- 10% but when the power standardisation was done a decade ago we when to a nominal 230V -6%/+10% ... but the power companies are excluded from this!
- The downside of Higher Mains is some things (specifically PSU etc) is that they will not last as long

I've seen oddities like this before from a PSU on the way out over the years but never one from just installing / uninstalling SW or between a Cold Boot vs a Restart.

I've also had the current PSU for coming up to Two Years and it runs 24x7.

Thanks
Nathan

[RoderickGI]

Yes, it is neat. It provides a good insight into your power requirements, if not a perfect analysis. I too have seen some really strange failure modes in PCs due to an unreliable power supply. Very hard to diagnose. This tool helps select a power supply that will last the required time, and allow for component expansion or changeover. Thank goodness that CPU power requirement have at least plateaued, if not dropped, although GPUs are still hungry little buggers.

You must have some bits in that PC that I didn't guess right! The tool does use maximum power for each component I believe, but then uses the CPU and System "loading" levels you set to come up with a result. If you set everything to 100% you will get a much higher number. I typically look at 100%, but use the recommended 90% loading. I like that it includes an ageing allowance in the capacitor age, which you can also use to allow for 24/7 operation. See note 4.

I knew that our power was actually 230 volts, even though we still call it 240 volts. I didn't know about the power company exemption. Must have been to allow time for equipment lie cycle driven change over. I would hope that exemption expires at some time.

I reckon everyone building a PC should know about this tool.    (No, I have no affiliation. Just a happy user.)

[jmone]

The main differences between your "guess" and mine was I added some OC, Watercooler, and some PCI-E cards then upped the ageing allowance to 25%.  Still the "reality" of what I'm measuring is about half what the calculator comes up with.  Anyway I plan to buy a Corsair AX860i at this stage, it is expensive but if it fixes the issue then .... $ well spent.

Also can you mix and match the Modular Cables between brands?

On the Oz power supply stuff (and in my conversation with the authority) I don't think you will see the spec tighten any time soon but if you find your Mains Power Supply is outside the range you can call them and and they will come are adjust the local transformer.

[Hendrik]

Also can you mix and match the Modular Cables between brands?

I wouldn't try that.

[apgood]

2nd Hendrik. The modular cables aren't standardised.  Sometimes they use the same pugs but wire them differently. Read a post from one guy on the unraid forum that fried hardware doing that.

[apgood]

The main differences between your "guess" and mine was I added some OC, Watercooler, and some PCI-E cards then upped the ageing allowance to 25%.  Still the "reality" of what I'm measuring is about half what the calculator comes up with.  Anyway I plan to buy a Corsair AX860i at this stage, it is expensive but if it fixes the issue then .... $ well spent.

Also can you mix and match the Modular Cables between brands?

On the Oz power supply stuff (and in my conversation with the authority) I don't think you will see the spec tighten any time soon but if you find your Mains Power Supply is outside the range you can call them and and they will come are adjust the local transformer.

When last I checked my power here in Middle Cove it was 249v. Samsung had to come to my place not too long ago to replace the power supply in my plasma tv because it blew the caps with an almighty bang. Tech said that Australia had one of the highest rates of blown power power supplies because of our powergird... mind you if they put better caps / power regulation circuitry in their tv's then it would be less of an issue.

[astromo]

On the Oz power supply stuff (and in my conversation with the authority) I don't think you will see the spec tighten any time soon but if you find your Mains Power Supply is outside the range you can call them and and they will come are adjust the local transformer.

The full story about standard voltage is in AS 60038-2000, that's a rebadge of the IEC standard of the same number, but this gives a rundown of the key points:
http://www.nhp.com.au/files/editor_upload/File/TNL/TNL-38.pdf
To summarise, there's a wide permissible range from the revised standard set at 230VAC (single phase) of -6% (216V) to +10% (253V).

From my sleuthing on the side, there has been a relatively recent variation of domestic grid voltages in Australia that's been brought on by the increasing use of photo-voltaic arrays - solar panels. So, you'll tend to see the voltage rise during daylight hours.

You can find technical background reading from sources such as this:
http://apvi.org.au/wp-content/uploads/2013/12/APVA-PV-and-DNSP-Literature-review-September-2013.pdf

The variation in volatage (especially over voltatge) can give sensitive electrical equipment grief, as jmone correctly comments. This is why I invested in a power conditioner for my HTPC and amp. Probably an OTT reaction but at least my gear is happy receiving 240VAC ±1%. It may be 10V over spec but at least its constant and within a tight voltage spec.

[6233638]

For what it's worth, under 100% load - that is loading up the CPU and GPU to 100%, my system power consumption peaks at just over 300W.
 
The calculator is recommending a 618W power supply for my system and links to a 750W Corsair.
 
That said, power supplies are most efficient around 50% load, and the higher-end Corsair power supplies are silent up to 40% load, so it is in line with what I would actually buy. (I have an older AX850 right now - though I had originally intended on adding a second GPU for SLI with it)
 
 
And definitely don't mix and match modular power supply connectors - many of them are wired up differently, even if it's a different power supply from the same company.

[jmone]

Well, replaced the PSU with an 860i (nice PSU BTW, though expensive) and also my inverter (now a "better" 241v output) but unfortunately it did not fix my issues.

I'm going to have to look harder at the MB & LSI BIOS or Windows Startup settings, as it seems to fail to load the driver (mostly) when doing a warm reboot (not a cold restart).... any hints on where to start (I think I've already disabled fast boot for example and it did not make a difference).

Thanks
Nathan

[jmone]

FYI - I don't have to reinstall the drive just do a Disable / Enable and it comes good. 

I've now found anther post on a WinServer 2012 that just got their update with the same issue but he fixed it updated the FW (which I've already done).

[apgood]

I think in windows you can delay start/  load certain things like processes, but not sure if you had do it for hardware drivers....