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Author Topic: No One Could Have Predicted - BluRay Not Doing Well  (Read 9949 times)

glynor

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No One Could Have Predicted - BluRay Not Doing Well
« on: May 01, 2014, 12:06:58 pm »

http://www.theverge.com/2014/5/1/5670786/sony-earnings-adjustment-impairment-charges

Quote
The second charge is due to what Sony calls "demand for physical media contracting faster than anticipated," especially in Europe. Because of this, Sony says it does not believe the business will generate "sufficient cash flow in the future to recover the carrying amount of long-lived assets." It anticipates an impairment charge on those assets, and a second charge on the overall value of its disc manufacturing business, which will amount to 25 billion yen ($245 million).

They're only shooting themselves in the foot in the long run, I suspect, though.  It is as likely to lead to the non-adoption of either HD-DVD or BluRay, as to anything else.  They really think they can control the market completely, and use it to further monetize their activities, despite all the evidence to the contrary.

Like I've said before... The end-game is downloadable content.  The longer they drag their feet, the more it gives the independent companies time to develop solutions on their own.
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MrC

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Re: No One Could Have Predicted - BluRay Not Doing Well
« Reply #1 on: May 01, 2014, 12:11:18 pm »

Schadenfreuder.  :-)
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glynor

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Re: No One Could Have Predicted - BluRay Not Doing Well
« Reply #2 on: May 01, 2014, 12:16:04 pm »

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6233638

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Re: No One Could Have Predicted - BluRay Not Doing Well
« Reply #3 on: May 01, 2014, 12:51:49 pm »

I don't know anyone that even adopted Blu-ray to begin with.
 
Why buy a disc that only works in one player in the house - if they even own one - instead of all of them?
If they do have a Blu-ray player at all, it's only because it was bundled with their television and came with a handful of discs.
 
Audio and Video quality don't matter to most - the convenience of services like Netflix and others wins every time.
 
 
Until we get Blu-ray quality DRM-free downloads, I'll still continue to buy discs though.
But we still aren't there yet with CD-quality downloads, and that's only a few hundred MB, rather than 20-50GB. (more with 4K)
So that's probably never going to happen.
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Hendrik

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Re: No One Could Have Predicted - BluRay Not Doing Well
« Reply #4 on: May 01, 2014, 04:45:13 pm »

I hope they keep making high quality material for Blu-rays, as I cannot stand the lousy quality of streaming, plus its riddled with DRM, not to mention that outside of the US we lack any decent streaming providers which offer me what I really want (high quality audio/video, plus dual language - English for me, if its a US/UK movie anyway, German for the family/friends if we happen to watch something together)
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mwillems

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Re: No One Could Have Predicted - BluRay Not Doing Well
« Reply #5 on: May 01, 2014, 05:48:48 pm »

But we still aren't there yet with CD-quality downloads, and that's only a few hundred MB, rather than 20-50GB. (more with 4K)
So that's probably never going to happen.

Shopping around, I can often find redbook quality lossless files with no DRM, but it may be a function of the kind of music I'm looking for.  Sometimes it takes some looking, and there have definitely been artists where I couldn't turn up anything lossless to buy, but I'm always surprised what I can find, especially for newer music.

For my part, I'll miss blurays on balance, they look much nicer than current streamed solutions, but, on the con side, the bluray DRM makes them kind of unpleasant to deal with.
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glynor

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Re: No One Could Have Predicted - BluRay Not Doing Well
« Reply #6 on: May 01, 2014, 06:19:29 pm »

but, on the con side, the bluray DRM makes them kind of unpleasant to deal with.

That was the gist of my quoted argument above.  How shortsighted...

The extremely onerous DRM, which is all but guaranteed to frustrate customers.  The hostile attitude towards general-purpose PC playback and keeping the stupid region coding idiocy going in particular.  Morons.  Is it any surprise that:

Quote
especially in Europe

Yeah!  Who's surprised?  You jerk them around with release dates constantly, and Put Out A Crappy, Customer-Hostile Product!

People are irritated and moved on?  Shocking.
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jmone

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Re: No One Could Have Predicted - BluRay Not Doing Well
« Reply #7 on: May 01, 2014, 06:23:56 pm »

It is interesting that since our debates on this back in 2007 I don't think the situation has changed much.  BD is still the only effective way to acquire high quality movie consent for consumers.  So for me I continue to grow my BD collection.  

What has changed in our house... as the kids have grown up into teenagers is they now consume heaps of video content on their phones.  They don't seem to care that is is low bit rate, on a tiny screen with crap audio.  They also don't care about frame rates, bit depths, sample rates, renders or any of the "good stuff" MC can do.  They also don't tend to consume "movie" length content either, it seems to be some TV Eps length stuff but lots and lots of very short clips from the social sites.

So on balance, I'd say we (as a family unit), have lots of "TV" content on a traditional styple 60" screen, some "Movie Nights" on the 100" screen, and then the kids lots of Video Clips on the Phones etc.
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jmone

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Re: No One Could Have Predicted - BluRay Not Doing Well
« Reply #8 on: May 01, 2014, 06:29:01 pm »

The killer app for me is the DRM circumvention progs (like AnyDVD HD) that allows us to consume BD content as we want.  If the push to shut these apps down (as with DVDFab) then .....
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JimH

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Re: No One Could Have Predicted - BluRay Not Doing Well
« Reply #9 on: May 01, 2014, 07:00:59 pm »

Yeah!  Who's surprised?  You jerk them around with release dates constantly, and Put Out A Crappy, Customer-Hostile Product!

People are irritated and moved on?  Shocking.
Right on, brother.
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KingSparta

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Re: No One Could Have Predicted - BluRay Not Doing Well
« Reply #10 on: May 01, 2014, 07:39:09 pm »

I find it interesting that My Sony 3D BluRay Player, Does Not Work With My LG 3D TV When playing a 3D movie.

So I Bought A LG 3D BluRay Player, And It Works Perfectly, Not Sure If It Is Sony's Issue Or LG's
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mschneid

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Re: No One Could Have Predicted - BluRay Not Doing Well
« Reply #11 on: May 01, 2014, 07:42:36 pm »

My USA Verizon Fios account cannot (won't)  deliver on demand movies in 5.1 DD  much less high def...  For many of the stored films.. you get two channel only... the compression artifacts are noticeable..  

Downloadable is not a current solution.

Verizon gets away with this BS because they count on the average customer not caring about quality... just that it starts instantly and uses the same interface that they use most of the time... (cable TV remote).  Bottom line... I suspect it will be years before I have enough bandwidth to my TV that also meets the WAF (fast start ... simple minded cable TV interface) and my quality acceptance factor.   So.. Blueray and a decent sound system will be the basic solution for quite some time.

With comcast purchasing time warner.... I can't imagine things getting much better.  They are finding multiple ways to monetize the same thing.

I suspect that the BD market is partly down because the movie content is less interesting.... the short form TV series content seems the most popular these days.
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6233638

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Re: No One Could Have Predicted - BluRay Not Doing Well
« Reply #12 on: May 01, 2014, 08:03:46 pm »

The killer app for me is the DRM circumvention progs (like AnyDVD HD) that allows us to consume BD content as we want.  If the push to shut these apps down (as with DVDFab) then .....
With AnyDVD HD, Blu-ray is essentially DRM-free and region-free. It's not something I've even had to think about for years.
 
I think there have only been two times when it was not ready in time for a new release, one of which was solved by updating to a beta, the other was fixed later that day if I recall correctly.
 
If it were to suddenly stop working, or they come out with a new disc format for 4K which is totally locked down, then I'll probably stop buying discs, or switch to DVDs.
 
Without AnyDVD HD, I probably wouldn't even have an HTPC - I wouldn't have looked for anything beyond iTunes running as a "Home Sharing" server.
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InflatableMouse

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Re: No One Could Have Predicted - BluRay Not Doing Well
« Reply #13 on: May 02, 2014, 03:51:21 am »

I stopped buying bluray disks.

A player that takes a minute to turn on and won't immediately turn off when I press OFF?
A drawer that won't open the first minute?
Some discs that take minutes to load?
Menu animations or fade in/outs that I can't skip or cancel?
Trailers I can't skip or cancel?
Inconsistent use of menus, some cancel playback and drop to main menu with no option to continue?
...
Seriously ... ?

European/dutch releases that are different from the "original"; for instance Planet Earth has David Attenborough's commentary in AC3 and some kiddie dutch commentary in DTS-MA. They cheaped out on the release because now the layers average 22GB, otherwise it would have been dual layer disks.

So I trashed the bluray player some time ago and decided to rip them to disk. But that doesn't always work either. That is just one example. There are plenty like that. The time and effort needed to overcome all the crap is just not worth it. Most movies rip and play fine but its mostly documentaries and concerts that are messed up. I would have to import US versions but then there are no subtitles and that quickly becomes very expensive.

So, I decided to vote with my wallet.

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Hendrik

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Re: No One Could Have Predicted - BluRay Not Doing Well
« Reply #14 on: May 02, 2014, 04:35:04 am »

I rip all my discs with MakeMKV, and I've yet to encounter one which doesn't work, including a few documentaries and one or two concerts (granted, not much presence in my library).
I'm not really all that interested in commentarys or stuff like that, and the main movie typically has both german and english DTS-HD, or sometimes even only english in HD, so the german releases aren't too terrible.
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jmone

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Re: No One Could Have Predicted - BluRay Not Doing Well
« Reply #15 on: May 02, 2014, 06:08:45 am »

I have over 500 Movie BD's ripped in folder structure to my pool and they are all fine.  It is easy, AnyDVD HD runs in the background, I put in a BD, MC asks to rip it and then gets the Movie info = Done.  The biggest challenge is selecting the forced sub stream when it is not properly marked but once done, MC keeps the setting for next time.

I no longer bother remuxing to MKV etc.  Not worth the effort or saving in disk space vs keeping all the content (even if we don't frequently use it)

FYI - It is more of a "challenge" for the TV and Music Video BD's but particles are mostly there and if we could generate particles by chapters then this would be solved as well.
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jmone

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Re: No One Could Have Predicted - BluRay Not Doing Well
« Reply #16 on: May 02, 2014, 06:24:59 am »

I rip all my discs with MakeMKV, .....

I'm sure such features built in MC would be greatly appreciated by many!  8)
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Hendrik

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Re: No One Could Have Predicted - BluRay Not Doing Well
« Reply #17 on: May 02, 2014, 06:33:38 am »

Why would I want to replicate another perfectly functioning tool, which is free even and supports removing encryption on top?
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astromo

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Re: No One Could Have Predicted - BluRay Not Doing Well
« Reply #18 on: May 02, 2014, 06:49:35 am »

I rip all my discs with MakeMKV, and I've yet to encounter one which doesn't work, including a few documentaries and one or two concerts (granted, not much presence in my library).

I've made enough use of this software in freeware mode that I kicked some cash in the tin to buy a licence. As with good gear like my fave media software that JRiver puts out, I appreciate stuff that "just works" and when it really "just works" it's worth rewarding that effort.

MakeMKV did a great job ripping a series that I bought from the UK with a different region format. No issue. Didn't skip a beat.

I've only bought 1 BD because of lossless, HD audio content. If a CD had been produced, I would have gone that path but wasn't given a choice. With quality music as the main deal for me, I'm happy enough (no complaints from the rest of the household) with non-BD standard video. With a 46" screen, not much point in going OTT anyway.

I'll be interested to observe the price trajectory of 4K TV. I'd expect that I'll wait until that excitement dies down + see how long the current telly lasts.
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Bizarroterl

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Re: No One Could Have Predicted - BluRay Not Doing Well
« Reply #19 on: May 02, 2014, 10:01:23 am »

This thread brings back memories.  Can't skip trailers,commercials, etc.  Goofy menus, big warnings that I could be a criminal because I'm playing this disk (and I can't skip that either).  Me swearing and the wife getting mad. 

I've used anydvd hd for years now to rip to the nas and play from there.  When I select something to watch it starts immediately and no "you must watch this" junk.  Without anydvd hd I would have dropped out of the HT market a long, long time ago.
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glynor

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Re: No One Could Have Predicted - BluRay Not Doing Well
« Reply #20 on: May 02, 2014, 12:24:11 pm »

I agree that either ripping using MakeMKV (my method) or using AnyDVD HD (which I own) are the only ways to make it tolerable.

But we're huge nerds, willing and able to invest the time to learn these systems, and are using computers to do it.

Most regular people have this experience:

A player that takes a minute to turn on and won't immediately turn off when I press OFF?
A drawer that won't open the first minute?
Some discs that take minutes to load?
Menu animations or fade in/outs that I can't skip or cancel?
Trailers I can't skip or cancel?
Inconsistent use of menus, some cancel playback and drop to main menu with no option to continue?
...

That's what my dad experiences.  That's what the CEO of my company experiences.  That's what regular people experience.

And then, worse, they go on a trip and they want a simple way to bring along a movie or three on their iPad or laptop for the trip, and they can't do it.  But right over here is Netflix, Amazon Prime Video, iTunes, HBO Go, and whatnot... All of which work without trouble on their:

* Crappy BluRay player (except iTunes and HBO Go, largely)
* Laptop
* Tablet
* Phone

Sure, it isn't as nice of quality, but it works the way they want, with no dumbness (described above, among other issues), and it is clear what is available for them.  And purchasing is only a mouse-click or tap away, and you get instant gratification, without waiting for a disc to come in the mail.

That's why I never understood the logic of any of that DRM and other customer-hostile behavior on the part of the BD-group.  They're complaining about piracy, but they seem to be doing their best to ensure that piracy provides a better experience, for cheaper.  And, on top of it, they're in an era where they're competing with the Internet at-large for "wasting my free time" leisure activities.  As jmone pointed out, kids just watch short-form stuff on YouTube.  My nephew watches more Minecraft videos on his iPad mini in a day than I probably have watched YouTube videos in my LIFE.  It is absurd and doomed to failure.

And... Worse, they'd absolutely kill AnyDVD HD in a heartbeat if they can figure out a way.
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Hendrik

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Re: No One Could Have Predicted - BluRay Not Doing Well
« Reply #21 on: May 02, 2014, 12:30:53 pm »

Streaming is also full of DRM, there are many stories about problems not being able to watch it on your second device and nuts like that.
It doesn't happen to everyone, probably not even the majority, but once you start keeping more than one media device around the house, you run into these things, which are equally not understandable to the normal person.

DRM has killed, is killing and will kill all the things.
At least you can get music without DRM these days, because the providers figured out that people want their music on several different devices for listening..
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glynor

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Re: No One Could Have Predicted - BluRay Not Doing Well
« Reply #22 on: May 02, 2014, 01:39:12 pm »

Oh, I agree completely.  Streaming DRM is horrible too.  Just only marginally less horrible than BluRay and without a few of the hostile-bits listed above.
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InflatableMouse

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Re: No One Could Have Predicted - BluRay Not Doing Well
« Reply #23 on: May 02, 2014, 02:32:19 pm »

The problem with streaming alternatives (in the Netherlands at least) is content and fragmentation.

HBO gives me 1 or 2 series I'd like to watch, and a few movies once in a while I'd like to see. 15 euros a month.
My TV provider has VOD, new (like, last year) movies are between 4 and 6 euros per watch, serie 2 or 3 euros per episode, on top of the 20 or 30 I already pay per month for TV
Netflix has a limited library for the NL, 8 euros p/m
Spotify Premium, 10 euros p/m.

And, they are only stereo. They advertise with DD5.1, but I just get stereo. Netflix does DD Plus, which my receiver doesn't support.

And that's it, that's what I can get. So that's 63 P/M + a few movies and series, that would be what, 75 euros a month. And I can't watch or listen to everything I want. For that, I have to move to the US or resort to illegal activities like proxying and commit fraud with a fake billing address.

But if I had Amazon, Prime Video, Hulu and whatnot, what would I pay then? 125? 150? Would I be able to watch everything then? Would I need a separate STB for each? Or has each his own Window 8 app? Or maybe I need to buy a new Smart TV for that, just like I need a new receiver for Netflix ...

Sarcasm aside, do you see how ridiculous it gets?

I love the idea of streaming. I want it, I'd pay a premium for it too. But not like this. It's all going wrong ...

We need One App to rule them all. AC3 or DD5.1 is fine and please, support refresh rate matching. That's all I ask.
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glynor

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Re: No One Could Have Predicted - BluRay Not Doing Well
« Reply #24 on: May 02, 2014, 03:05:14 pm »

The problem with streaming alternatives (in the Netherlands at least) is content and fragmentation.

Yeah... It is WAY better in the US in this regard.

Netflix and Amazon are available for essentially all devices here, and have a decent array of content.
HBO Go is available fewer places currently, but they are on AppleTV (and, of course, any computer with a web browser), iOS, and I think Android.  They also just signed on with XBOX One, I think (or maybe it was PS4).

I don't know about, and don't care about music streaming services, as I'd never pay a monthly fee for one of those.

Local content here in the US is almost impossible to deal with.  Sports is available for some sports (MLB and NBA are pretty good, NFL is terrible), but they're subject to all sorts of obnoxious blackout rules, part of the system of protectionism for the local broadcasters (which is absurdly idiotic).

iTunes doesn't have stuff until after the DVD/BluRay releases, usually, but has near-enough to everything available here that it works like it should.

REGION CODING IS STUPID SOMEONE AT A MEDIA EMPIRE SHOULD MAKE IT STOP AND LAUGH ALL THE WAY TO THE BANK!
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6233638

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Re: No One Could Have Predicted - BluRay Not Doing Well
« Reply #25 on: May 02, 2014, 03:57:16 pm »

REGION CODING IS STUPID SOMEONE AT A MEDIA EMPIRE SHOULD MAKE IT STOP AND LAUGH ALL THE WAY TO THE BANK!
Since people are now used to the low quality and instant access of streaming services, most people that I know here take the position of: "Clearly they didn't want any money for it..." when something is unavailable due to region locking.
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astromo

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Re: No One Could Have Predicted - BluRay Not Doing Well
« Reply #26 on: May 04, 2014, 03:52:12 pm »

REGION CODING IS STUPID SOMEONE AT A MEDIA EMPIRE SHOULD MAKE IT STOP AND LAUGH ALL THE WAY TO THE BANK!

Agreed .. but if even I can get around it with a bit of freeware, then all I do is  ;D

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csimon

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Re: No One Could Have Predicted - BluRay Not Doing Well
« Reply #27 on: May 09, 2014, 06:56:14 am »

I buy BRs, and generally rip them to remove all the inconveniences.

With 400kbps broadband and the situation not likely to change in the near future, streaming even SD material is a non-starter and is only something I've read about.
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Re: No One Could Have Predicted - BluRay Not Doing Well
« Reply #28 on: June 08, 2014, 03:51:15 pm »

The difficulties and hassles and inconveniences of Blu-ray playback on a computer is why I don't own a Blu-ray player and don't have any BD titles.  There are BD titles I want, especially music titles and concert titles that offer lossless, but unwilling to buy due to the hassle of playing them.  The situation is frustrating and consumer hostile.

My music and video playback is now done on a computer and computer monitors.  All of my good audio gear is connected to computers.  If I'm going to watch a BD title I need to do it on a computer with all of the computer processing and conveniences that I'm used to employing.  My computers and the audio gear connected are more than capable than even multi-thousand dollar dedicated AV hardware.  Let me use the computers to achieve playback quality and convenience that they are capable of.  I'm not going to spend multi-thousands of dollars on dedicated AV hardware to duplicate what my computer and existing multi-thousand dollar gear already does better.

The customer hostile and adversarial nature of Blu-ray has kept me from buying a Blu-ray player, Blu-ray drive for any of my computers, and BD titles.  There are BD titles that I do want, but I'm unwilling to buy them or the gear necessary to play them.

I was about to relax my opposition and buy a computer Blu-ray drive and try MakeMKV or other tools to try some Blu-ray titles.  Then the problem with DVDFab hit and the industry made it abundantly clear to me that they don't want me to be able to do Blu-ray the way I want to do Blu-ray.  So I'm back to being opposed to having anything Blu-ray in my house.

There are BD music titles I want and I'm still trying to work out some sort of compromise with myself to allow me to do some Blu-ray.  But negotiations aren't going well.  At an impasse.

It's frustrating.  I do music and video for enjoyment.  The adversarial playback difficulties and issues with Blu-ray playback on a computer would kill that enjoyment and risk destroying the experiences I so much enjoy.
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