Topic: JRiver + HTPC + Multichannel DAC = AVR Replacement? (Read 50703 times)

DHF · « **on:** July 27, 2014, 08:05:03 pm »

I currently have a Marantz 8801 as my prepro. Everything playing through HDMI, and I was happy up until I heard an outboard DAC with a volume control - actually heard two different ones - and I really liked the sound. They were playing though the USB port. These DACs were wired straight to the amp - they have volume controls on them. However, they were 2 channel only DACs - so if I wanted to watch TV or listen to a movie - or a multichannel sound source - I would have to power down the system and run wires back to the prepro. Not so bad for me - but this has a very low WAF. I noticed when I played the DACs through the Marantz - meh.... just OK sounding. Straight to the amp - wonderful sound. My theory is that the miles and miles of DSP inside the AVR has a detrimental effect on SQ.

So I see that exasound - and some others - have multichannel DACs - that can take both PCM and DSD files. But not Dolby and DTS - nor Dolby HD and DTS-MA. Can J River take in the DTS MA and Dolby HD streams and output PCM without being lossy?

I see some motherboards and video cards have HDMI inputs on them - this would be handy for the DirecTV receiver. Can JRiver take input from an external HDMI audio and video connection if the hardware is so equipped - and put the video to the monitor and the audio out through USB?

The reason for my many questions is - as the subject line suggests - I am interested in perhaps not having an AVR anywhere in the loop. I use JRiver most of the time anyway for music and movies.

ferday · « **Reply #1 on:** July 27, 2014, 10:04:54 pm »

Sure, but it depends on your needs/current setup (do you have all the amps?)

Personally I'd rather go with a pre/pro like the new emotiva. This gives you a feature set like an AVR (EQ, room correction, etc) and HDMI connection. Why do you NEED USB? I currently run hdmi out to an AVR, using jriver to decode. When the AVR sees a true multichannel it doesn't decode, just let's the signal come through the hdmi. USB and HDMI are digital, there will be no sound quality difference.

When I've saved up a bit I'm going for the emotiva so I can go back to using my block amps rather than an AVR...although I must say my onkyo nr838 sounds darned good and has a wicked feature set, all at a cost less than half of the exasound (for example)

bulldogger · « **Reply #2 on:** July 27, 2014, 10:10:33 pm »

Quote from: DHF on July 27, 2014, 08:05:03 pm

I currently have a Marantz 8801 as my prepro. Everything playing through HDMI, and I was happy up until I heard an outboard DAC with a volume control - actually heard two different ones - and I really liked the sound. They were playing though the USB port. These DACs were wired straight to the amp - they have volume controls on them. However, they were 2 channel only DACs - so if I wanted to watch TV or listen to a movie - or a multichannel sound source - I would have to power down the system and run wires back to the prepro. Not so bad for me - but this has a very low WAF. I noticed when I played the DACs through the Marantz - meh.... just OK sounding. Straight to the amp - wonderful sound. My theory is that the miles and miles of DSP inside the AVR has a detrimental effect on SQ.

So I see that exasound - and some others - have multichannel DACs - that can take both PCM and DSD files. But not Dolby and DTS - nor Dolby HD and DTS-MA. Can JRiver take in the DTS MA and Dolby HD streams and output PCM without being lossy?

I see some motherboards and video cards have HDMI inputs on them - this would be handy for the DirecTV receiver. Can J River take input from an external HDMI audio and video connection if the hardware is so equipped - and put the video to the monitor and the audio out through USB?

The reason for my many questions is - as the subject line suggests - I am interested in perhaps not having an AVR anywhere in the loop. I use J River most of the time anyway for music and movies.

Yes you can decode DD True HD and DTS-MA with JRiver. Also JRSS is preferred by many to DD Prologic II if you need to expand to additional channels. You can also do room correction with several methods including Dirac Live.

mwillems · « **Reply #3 on:** July 27, 2014, 10:16:04 pm »

Quote from: DHF on July 27, 2014, 08:05:03 pm

I currently have a Marantz 8801 as my prepro. Everything playing through HDMI, and I was happy up until I heard an outboard DAC with a volume control - actually heard two different ones - and I really liked the sound. They were playing though the USB port. These DACs were wired straight to the amp - they have volume controls on them. However, they were 2 channel only DACs - so if I wanted to watch TV or listen to a movie - or a multichannel sound source - I would have to power down the system and run wires back to the prepro. Not so bad for me - but this has a very low WAF. I noticed when I played the DACs through the Marantz - meh.... just OK sounding. Straight to the amp - wonderful sound. My theory is that the miles and miles of DSP inside the AVR has a detrimental effect on SQ.

So I see that exasound - and some others - have multichannel DACs - that can take both PCM and DSD files. But not Dolby and DTS - nor Dolby HD and DTS-MA. Can J River take in the DTS MA and Dolby HD streams and output PCM without being lossy?

I have exactly the setup you're describing: I use a multichannel DAC from the PC directly hooked to power amps. I love it, and wouldn't go back to an integrated receiver in a million years. JRiver offers tremendous flexibility and the sound quality is quite good. JRiver can decode Dolby HD out of the box, but needs a third party dll to decode DTS-MA because there is no open DTS decoder. Once you have the dll it works a treat. See here for more details http://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/Blu-ray#HD_Audio

I'm not sure about your questions in re: HDMI inputs, hopefully someone more knowledgeable can chime in.

DHF · « **Reply #4 on:** July 27, 2014, 10:32:45 pm »

Mwillems:

Obviously you do video as well as audio. How do you do switching of sources? HDMI switch?

I saw some HDMI switches that separate out the audio - fiber optic - so that could work. Kinda hoping somebody with a setup like this can let me know how they handle video switching. And if J River can "recognize" an HDMI input from a hardware source.

Ferday - I understand how you feel. I use a separate amplifier so that part is taken care of. I had listened to several DACs through the Marantz and was convinced there was not much to be gained. The Marantz is no slouch, but wow, playing the DAC straight to the amp really sings.

ferday · « **Reply #5 on:** July 27, 2014, 11:06:14 pm »

Take a read: fascinating stuff and may help you

http://www.acousticfrontiers.com/whats-new/2013/2/11/deconstructing-the-home-theater-pre-processor.html

DHF · « **Reply #6 on:** July 27, 2014, 11:36:07 pm »

Hey ferday!

Great find! Thanks - it's good to know I'm not the only one trying it.

DHF · « **Reply #7 on:** July 27, 2014, 11:58:21 pm »

Fer day

I didn't respond to the whole USB vs HDMI thing, because as soon as somebody starts talking about dedicated clocks and jitter and asynchronous communications my eyes glaze over

I don't believe the difference in SQ is the type of digital connection, although it could be. I think there is something to the path being as simple and short as possible - which is my completely unscientifically founded hypothesis as to why it sounds so different.

Apologize for the OT reply.

mwillems · « **Reply #8 on:** July 28, 2014, 12:47:13 am »

Quote from: DHF on July 27, 2014, 10:32:45 pm

Obviously you do video as well as audio. How do you do switching of sources? HDMI switch?

I don't switch sources (avoiding the HDMI input issue altogether). My HTPC with JRiver is my source for all video content. I have a cablecard TV tuner (an HDHomerun Prime) that's connected to the PC by ethernet, and I use that to watch Cable TV or record TV using JRiver directly. I have a blu-ray drive in the PC, so I use JRiver for optical disc playback as well.

About the only A/V "component" that I still have that isn't integrated into the HTPC is my phonograph. It has a USB output, so I can connect it to the PC, but routing the phono output into JRiver requires a little fiddling (but is doable).

v_erich · « **Reply #9 on:** July 28, 2014, 03:10:02 am »

Hi,

keep in mind that there is no possibility to play back 3D content in JRiver, thats the reason why I am not using it in my home cinema.

BR
Erich

Hilton · « **Reply #10 on:** July 28, 2014, 05:35:24 am »

Quote from: v_erich on July 28, 2014, 03:10:02 am

Hi,

keep in mind that there is no possibility to play back 3D content in JRiver, thats the reason why I am not using it in my home cinema.

BR
Erich

That's not entirely true.

You can use SBS 3D just fine if you convert from frame packed video to SBS. You can even do this conversion lossless with DVD FAB with no video or audio degradation.

You can also use MC19 as your front end for your 3D library and use an external player such as Total Media Theatre 6.5 with full native frame packing. This is what I currently do with some scripting to auto-detect 3D ISO images, mount them and play them in TMT6.5 with full Bluray menu and 3D Frame packing. When the 3D movie finishes it goes back to MC19.

PS. I just did a quick test and live loopback WASAPI audio also works with TMT6 doing native 3D video framepacking and MC19 doing audio. The audio was out of sync, but it is possible to adjust live loopback latency within JRiver MC19 which I didn't fiddle with.

Hendrik · « **Reply #11 on:** July 28, 2014, 05:44:45 am »

Note that this 3D conversion is not lossless, to convert a 3D BD to 3D SBS, you need to decode it and re-encode it, this process is inherently lossy.

Hilton · « **Reply #12 on:** July 28, 2014, 06:06:51 am »

Quote from: Hendrik on July 28, 2014, 05:44:45 am

Note that this 3D conversion is not lossless, to convert a 3D BD to 3D SBS, you need to decode it and re-encode it, this process is inherently lossy.

I'm just testing this theory as I haven't actually used it to convert to SBS. I'll let you know what DVD Fab does in the conversion.

It's converting it to SBS at 12MB/s with CUDA processing, so yes its decoding and recoding but its pretty darn quick and I cant see the difference. Its still reencoded at ~~35Mbit~~ up to 45Mbit a sec with Half resolution @ 1920x1080. I'll check the final file when its finished.

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Hilton · « **Reply #13 on:** July 28, 2014, 06:23:06 am »

Definitely Half-SBS. But done in 14 mins.

However it is possible to do Full-SBS manually to preserve the detail.
I've done side by side comparisons with cropped photos and its actually very hard to see the difference in 3D between full and half res SBS so the extra file size and resolution isn't warranted.

Hendrik · « **Reply #14 on:** July 28, 2014, 06:25:37 am »

The CUDA encoder is also not very high quality, but it can probably be argued that at these high bitrates, encoder efficiency is not all that important.

Hilton · « **Reply #15 on:** July 28, 2014, 06:42:29 am »

Quote from: Hendrik on July 28, 2014, 06:25:37 am

The CUDA encoder is also not very high quality, but it can probably be argued that at these high bitrates, encoder efficiency is not all that important.

Yes Agreed, I cant see the difference between CPU and CUDA at these bitrates.
I can still do a recode with CPU only and no CUDA in about 40mins with my 6core 4960X

Matt · « **Reply #16 on:** July 28, 2014, 07:21:34 am »

I recently bought a Scarlett Focusrite 18i20. I use it to power multiple channels to a power amp. I love it.

DHF · « **Reply #17 on:** July 28, 2014, 07:54:30 am »

Does anybody know whether JRiver can take an HDMI input?

Hilton · « **Reply #18 on:** July 28, 2014, 08:25:14 am »

Quote from: Matt on July 28, 2014, 07:21:34 am

I recently bought a Scarlett Focusrite 18i20. I use it to power multiple channels to a power amp. I love it.

Nice bit of kit Matt with some great specs. Pity it doesn't do some other bit rates too, but it would be perfect for multichannel 8ch DTS-MA with MC19 converting to LPCM to go out to your AMPs.
Do you have another 2Ch DAC / Pre for hi res?

Last year when I blew a channel on my AVR I was looking at doing a similar thing with Emotiva AMPs and looked at various MiniDSPs, but none of them managed to do what I wanted and I managed to repair my AMP myself, so it never happened.

I think that Scarlett Focusrite 18i20 with Emotiva XPR-2 and XPR-5 with MC19 front end processing would kick-ass.

This cheap $250 HDMI A/V splitter would do the job too. HDMI in - HDMI video out and multi-channel analogue audio out. Don't know how good the DACs are...

http://www.essenceelectrostatic.com/product/evolve-hdmi-multi-channel-dac/

mojave · « **Reply #19 on:** July 28, 2014, 08:31:13 am »

Quote from: DHF on July 28, 2014, 07:54:30 am

Does anybody know whether JRiver can take an HDMI input?

You can use the Hauppauge Colossus or their HD PVR to receive the signal via HDMI from a source without HDCP copy protection. This lets you route some satellite TV sources through JRiver.

mojave · « **Reply #20 on:** July 28, 2014, 08:35:54 am »

Quote from: Hiltonk on July 28, 2014, 08:25:14 am

Nice bit of kit Matt with some great specs. Pity it doesn't do some other bit rates too, but it would be perfect for multichannel 8ch DTS-MA with MC19 converting to LPCM to go out to your AMPs.

The Steinberg UR824 supports up to 24 bit/192kHz and is one of the best all around audio devices I've used. It automatically switches sample rates with no clicks and has no pops on turn on/off even if the amps are on.

Matt · « **Reply #21 on:** July 28, 2014, 10:22:29 am »

Quote from: Hiltonk on July 28, 2014, 08:25:14 am

Do you have another 2Ch DAC / Pre for hi res?

Yes. I have studio monitors and headphones hooked up to a Proton USB.

v_erich · « **Reply #22 on:** July 28, 2014, 11:30:20 am »

Hi,
sorry but Half HD in 3D is not acceptable in terms of quality.
I look with a JVC beamer in 3m wider cinemascope screen in an black dedicated room and the difference between SBS und Full-HD ISO is so much that SBS is no possible solution for me.
Th use an other program for 3D ISO is also not good, I definitly want to use convolving in the cinema, otherwise there is no upgrade to my current solution (Top Pioneer Receiver with Mono Amps for front and Dune HDI player).

BR
Erich

Hilton · « **Reply #23 on:** July 29, 2014, 07:09:25 am »

Quote from: v_erich on July 28, 2014, 11:30:20 am

Hi,
sorry but Half HD in 3D is not acceptable in terms of quality.
I look with a JVC beamer in 3m wider cinemascope screen in an black dedicated room and the difference between SBS und Full-HD ISO is so much that SBS is no possible solution for me.
Th use an other program for 3D ISO is also not good, I definitly want to use convolving in the cinema, otherwise there is no upgrade to my current solution (Top Pioneer Receiver with Mono Amps for front and Dune HDI player).

BR
Erich

I guess it depends on the 3D technology being used to view it. With passive half SBS 3D you will see the difference because the final resolution is only 960x540 (per eye), but I swear I cant see the difference with my active 3D DLP setup @ 960x1080 (per eye) and full frame packed 1920x1080 3D.

v_erich · « **Reply #24 on:** July 29, 2014, 07:34:29 am »

Hi,
I have active (RF) glasses for 3D.

BR
Erich

Hilton · « **Reply #25 on:** July 30, 2014, 05:16:23 am »

Ok fair nuff Eric!

Back on main topic....

How about this for a PC 7.1 multichannel DAC and putting it in an external PCIE enclosure for better noise isolation with a separate power supply.
Its already shielded though so you could just install it in your PC and call it a day.

This was you do away with HDMI, USB and your AVR and go straight from PCIE > DAC > analogue out to AMP.

ASUS Xonar Essence STX II 7.1 Sound Card
http://www.pccasegear.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=211&products_id=27791

PCIE to PCIE external enclosure. (maybe get a better power supply)
I have one of their expresscard to PCIE1 adapters that I played around with to run an external GTX580 connected to my Vaio laptop via expresscard.

http://www.hwtools.net/Adapter/PE4H%20V3.2.html

PS. I just ordered the ASUS Xonar Essence STX II 7.1 Sound Card - I'll let you know how it sounds direct to my AMP analogue in.

Hendrik · « **Reply #26 on:** July 30, 2014, 05:44:53 am »

This enclosure seems like a bad idea. PCIe itself is not designed to be used like this. If you want external PCIe, use something officially designed for it, like Thunderbolt.

Otherwise, what was the reason not to go USB?

Hilton · « **Reply #27 on:** July 30, 2014, 07:15:42 am »

Quote from: Hendrik on July 30, 2014, 05:44:53 am

This enclosure seems like a bad idea. PCIe itself is not designed to be used like this. If you want external PCIe, use something officially designed for it, like Thunderbolt.

Otherwise, what was the reason not to go USB?

Maybe so, I was one of very few that played around with this technology though, and I got my Vaio laptop running games at 50FPS with the external PCIE x 1 adapter and my GTX580, this was compared to 8FPS with the onboard GPU. It worked flawlessly so I trust in the companies designs.
This is my setup for my laptop: http://forums.overclockers.com.au/showthread.php?t=988062

This was also way before thunderbolt came to market. If they release a thunderbolt 7.1 Asus xonar I'd be all over it!

$5k for professional thunderbolt audio that only works with MAC is a bit extreme even my deep pockets. http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/SymphIO8x8x8TB/

As for USB 7.1 well, there were a couple of interesting options posted above by Matt and Mojave but they ultimately still fall a little short.
It also has too many analogue pots, is designed for studio use, and the noise specs aren't that impressive when compared to the Asus.

The Asus Sonar U7 almost fits the bill too, but it uses 3.5mm jacks and the DACs are far from anything resembling high quality, YUK. Not to mention USB noise that I've heard in my own system with my external USB DAC.

PS. we each have our own preferences and biases at the end of the day!

BTW: External PCIE is within the PCIE Spec up to 23feet. This is how many of the early High Performance Computing clusters were deployed and some still are today.

http://www.rtcmagazine.com/articles/view/101003

mojave · « **Reply #28 on:** July 30, 2014, 09:14:51 am »

Quote from: Hiltonk on July 30, 2014, 07:15:42 am

and the noise specs aren't that impressive when compared to the Asus.

The ASUS noise specs (and those of most consumer devices) are based off the DAC chip's SNR rather than the actual measured SNR from the analog outputs. Stereophile measured the Essence STX at 114 dB and the ST at 102 dB. I'm using the ASUS Essence ST with H6 daughtercard on my work computer.

Speaking of Thunderbolt, my Lynx Aurora 16 Thunderbolt arrived yesterday. I still need to upgrade to a motherboard with Thunderbolt ports.

Maybe I should also get some LaCie 8Big Thunderbolt 48TB 1U hard drive arrays.

Quote

Thanks to dual Thunderbolt 2 ports, you can daisy chain up to six devices to a computer via a single cable (included in the box). For example, you could connect a total of 36 LaCie 8big Racks via the six Thunderbolt 2 ports on a single Mac Pro®, enabling more than 1.7PB (1728TB) and more than 3000MB/s – in a mere 36U. Compared with Fibre Channel solutions, the LaCie 8big Rack delivers outstanding scalability in half the space, a much simpler setup, and unprecedented performance.

glynor · « **Reply #29 on:** July 30, 2014, 09:58:02 am »

For the record, you'd almost certainly be far better off going with:
http://www.attotech.com/products/product.php?scat=28&prod=105&sku=TSSC-3808-D00

If you really want to scale to massive amounts of storage. There's a version without built-in RAID as well, if you don't want that feature.

Then, you can use a standard SAS RAID expander box (or boxes) to scale to whatever storage size you want, without having to buy things specifically from Lacie. I'm also not super-excited by the quality of storage systems I've seen from them in the past.

mwillems · « **Reply #30 on:** July 30, 2014, 11:41:52 am »

Quote from: mojave on July 30, 2014, 09:14:51 am

The ASUS noise specs (and those of most consumer devices) are based off the DAC chip's SNR rather than the actual measured SNR from the analog outputs. Stereophile measured the Essence STX at 114 dB and the ST at 102 dB. I'm using the ASUS Essence ST with H6 daughtercard on my work computer.

Yep. I have an Asus ST/H6 and a Steinberg and can confirm that the real world noise performance of the Asus is decidedly inferior to the Steinberg (At least 15dB worse, or more depending on the PC). I have some 113 dB sensitivity horn drivers, so a DAC's noisefloor is very audible in my setup. I initially grabbed the Asus based on the rated specs, but was disappointed. It's still a nice card for less sensitive speakers, and I use the Asus in a satellite system, but based on my experience (and stereophiles measurements) it is not likely to outperform the dedicated USB solutions described above.

dean70 · « **Reply #31 on:** July 30, 2014, 04:56:10 pm »

Quote from: mojave on July 30, 2014, 09:14:51 am

The ASUS noise specs (and those of most consumer devices) are based off the DAC chip's SNR rather than the actual measured SNR from the analog outputs. Stereophile measured the Essence STX at 114 dB and the ST at 102 dB. I'm using the ASUS Essence ST with H6 daughtercard on my work computer.

Speaking of Thunderbolt, my Lynx Aurora 16 Thunderbolt arrived yesterday. I still need to upgrade to a motherboard with Thunderbolt ports.

Maybe I should also get some LaCie 8Big Thunderbolt 48TB 1U hard drive arrays.

I have an ST/H6 combo and have installed EMI shielding around both cards, the molex power lead and secure grounding on the back-plate. I now measure the SNR of all channels using RMAA around 120db from 20hz-20khz (rises to 112db below 20hz). Sounds cleaner as well.

Hilton · « **Reply #32 on:** July 30, 2014, 09:17:00 pm »

Quote from: dean70 on July 30, 2014, 04:56:10 pm

I have an ST/H6 combo and have installed EMI shielding around both cards, the molex power lead and secure grounding on the back-plate. I now measure the SNR of all channels using RMAA around 120db from 20hz-20khz (rises to 112db below 20hz). Sounds cleaner as well.

Interesting, this was the point of me considering an external enclosure with a separate power supply. That's quite an improvement.
I think measurements and real world performance for PC based sound cards are subject to so much variability depending on the system its used in.

The review here got up to 118dB SNR using RMAA measurements with the Asus Xonar Essence STX II
http://www.reviewstudio.net/1744-asus-essence-stx-ii-soundcard-review-pc-s-high-end-audio/testing-amp-performance

Hilton · « **Reply #33 on:** July 30, 2014, 09:22:17 pm »

Quote from: mojave on July 30, 2014, 09:14:51 am

The ASUS noise specs (and those of most consumer devices) are based off the DAC chip's SNR rather than the actual measured SNR from the analog outputs. Stereophile measured the Essence STX at 114 dB and the ST at 102 dB. I'm using the ASUS Essence ST with H6 daughtercard on my work computer.

Speaking of Thunderbolt, my Lynx Aurora 16 Thunderbolt[/url] arrived yesterday. I still need to upgrade to a motherboard with Thunderbolt ports.

Maybe I should also get some Thunderbolt 48TB 1U hard drive arrays.

Nice kit the Lynx Aurora, the 48TB might be a bit overkill though

dean70 · « **Reply #34 on:** July 30, 2014, 10:34:14 pm »

Quote from: Hiltonk on July 30, 2014, 09:17:00 pm

Interesting, this was the point of me considering an external enclosure with a separate power supply. That's quite an improvement.
I think measurements and real world performance for PC based sound cards are subject to so much variability depending on the system its used in.

The review here got up to 118dB SNR using RMAA measurements with the Asus Xonar Essence STX II
http://www.reviewstudio.net/1744-asus-essence-stx-ii-soundcard-review-pc-s-high-end-audio/testing-amp-performance

For reference it used to be about 112db for the LR & 108db for surrounds before any shielding (& I forgot to mention shielding the ribbon cable that connects the H6 adds another 2db SNR.

Hilton · « **Reply #35 on:** August 01, 2014, 12:05:35 am »

Got the Asus Essence STX II 7.1 today with some high quality cables.
I'll let you know how it sounds direct to the analogue inputs on my AMP.

I'm also organising the external enclosure I mentioned above which I should have in a couple weeks.

Z0001 · « **Reply #36 on:** August 01, 2014, 03:40:54 am »

As usual you guys are piquing my curiosity.

I'm moving house soon and want to rethink our audio and HT set up. We don't currently have a multi channel receiver, and route everything through a good stereo integrated amp.

I want to make the move to multi channel, but don't want to dilute my audio listening experience.

Aside from MC on the HTPC we have a few separates components, a digital radio tuner and a back up blu ray player/TV tuner.

If we go the USB DAC + power amps route for MC, what do I need to fill the gap for my couple of separates? Do I need a separate pre-amp between theand the power amp? Or can I route line level back to MC? Buying a separate pre-amp would be a pain and not elegant.

Appreciate your wise thoughts
Z

sirkus · « **Reply #37 on:** August 01, 2014, 04:07:27 am »

I am pleased to see that the question of the utility of a pre-pro is dicussed

With a Lynx AES16 or RME HDSP AES (better drivers imho), you can use up to 8 stereo DACS (AES/EBU) and up to 192 kHz. With the hardware routing features, you can send all sounds that travel in the system to an audio application, like Plogue Bidule, for processing.

The main limitation in the HTPC world today, is the lack of Dolby Atmos or Auro-3d support.
The other limitation that I see, is the lack of DACs that support more than 8 channels at 384 kHz (maybe the Myteks with the sync clock feature, but it's a too pricey solution). Anyway, I can live with my DSDs at 192 kHz

It's because of the Dolby Atmos that I'm looking in a pre-pro now. But, it's not an ideal solution, because we don't know the internal sound path in hardware (resolution, etc..). That's why I cross my fingers to see an Atmos solution on PC.

Hilton · « **Reply #38 on:** August 01, 2014, 05:02:09 am »

Quote from: Hiltonk on August 01, 2014, 12:05:35 am

Got the Asus Essence STX II 7.1 today with some high quality cables.
I'll let you know how it sounds direct to the analogue inputs on my AMP.

I'm also organising the external enclosure I mentioned above which I should have in a couple weeks.

Up and running. Sounds GREAT!
Can't do any serious listening tonight, but first impressions are that the sound is fuller, a little warmer with greater detail than the Sony STRDA 5200ES DACs.

Tomorrow I'll run some tests with the AMP at zero DB using JRiver internal volume which is how you,d have to use it if going straight to a dedicated power amp.

deanorth · « **Reply #39 on:** August 01, 2014, 06:14:45 am »

I've shared the exact same thought, talked a lot with george, from Exasound, and was about to order an E28.

But then again, great great solution for an htpc, but then, I thought, what about the rest...
I mean, my marantz AV8801 is great, really, and I know I could go even further with the E28. but, for daily use, I have my PS4 and my Sat connected to my AV8801, I can use airplay (and for easy use, that's perfect).
Compared to that, the PHCH + E28 seems a bit more dedicated to a specific system, or maybe...paired with a parasound halo P7, with it's 2 set of 7.1 analog input, you can have both a standar av processor, for everthing else, connected in the halo P7 main 2, and both system can co exist.
but that's a road I chose not to follow, instead my pchc send decoded PCM via hdmi to the AV8801, and it's good, not perfect, but good enough; sad I couldn't get the E28 though, because it's a great HIFI stéréo dac too.

Hilton · « **Reply #40 on:** August 02, 2014, 12:44:58 am »

Quote from: Hiltonk on August 01, 2014, 05:02:09 am

Up and running. Sounds GREAT!
Can't do any serious listening tonight, but first impressions are that the sound is fuller, a little warmer with greater detail than the Sony STRDA 5200ES DACs.

Tomorrow I'll run some tests with the AMP at zero DB using JRiver internal volume which is how you,d have to use it if going straight to a dedicated power amp.

Wow!

Black silence with AMP at 0dB, punchy, tight and warm with just the right vocal and high hat cut through. A little laid back, but gorgeous sound!

sirkus · « **Reply #41 on:** August 02, 2014, 07:10:13 am »

There is another solution instead of the costly Parasound that is I/O limited. A simple DIY mechanical multi-channels switch. In my case, I have active speakers with XLR ins, the e28 has XLR outs and the AV8801/2 has XLR outs. With that, I can build a directly 100% XLR connected system.

But, to upmix with Atmos, no other solution than sending audio to AV8801/2 with its hardware limitations...

DHF · « **Reply #42 on:** August 04, 2014, 10:15:20 pm »

I am delighted to see I am not alone in this pursuit. Not pushing the Exasound, as I have never heard it, but it can do very high bitrate multichannel through USB. There look to be 3 paths out there:
Exasound e28 8 channels north of $3K
Multiple Mytecs 2 channels at a time $1K per channel
Pro audio DACs 8 channels $500-$1000
I see, digging through the archives, that Matt had an Exasound e18 for evaluation, but has gone the pro audio DAC route in his current setup. I wonder why? Cost? No SQ improvement in the e18 over pro audio gear?

I see the Exasound has found a way to use J Remote to control DAC volume. Pretty cool, as I use J Remote and iRule and my dain bramaged iPad can't run both simultaneously.

Is Atmos that much of a game changer? I thought Audyssey was a game changer, but I find myself bypassing it in 2 channel mode. With all the capabilities of J River DSP with regard to speaker levels, timing, and frequency based room correction, I am still thinking a MCH DAC and a decent HDMI switch could kill my prepro. I am of the opinion that the Marantz implementation of Audyssey is more mid fi - dumbing everything down to 48 kHz.

Hilton · « **Reply #43 on:** August 04, 2014, 10:38:06 pm »

My Sony 5200ES doesn't have any of the latest Codecs (DTS-HD MA) or Audyssey processing so JRiver DSP's are my best friend.

The Asus STX II 7.1 sounds a lot less processed and cleaner than the HDMI-in on my AMP even with all the AMP processing turned off.
In my less than optimal HTPC, the Asus STX II 7.1 in 2ch mode measured @ 110db SNR in RMAA with a cheap 60cm cable looping from RCA out to a 3.5mm>6.5mm adapter on the inputs.

I've found quite a few external PCI-E enclosure options now, varying from $200 to $500.
I'm leaning towards 2 options to try out, the cheaper $200 PCI-E enclosure from Bplus I linked to above and a Netstore NA221A for ~$500.
http://www.netstor.com.tw/_03/03_02.php?OTk=

DHF · « **Reply #44 on:** August 04, 2014, 10:45:39 pm »

Hiltonk

I am curious if you have tried bypassing the Sonys preamp and gone straight into the amp using j rivers volume control yet? I had a Sony ES years ago, and iirc, it had a preamp input on it. Just curious if you hear any big difference.

Hilton · « **Reply #45 on:** August 04, 2014, 11:04:50 pm »

Quote from: DHF on August 04, 2014, 10:45:39 pm

Hiltonk

I am curious if you have tried bypassing the Sonys preamp and gone straight into the amp using j rivers volume control yet? I had a Sony ES years ago, and iirc, it had a preamp input on it. Just curious if you hear any big difference.

Yes you can see my posts a couple above where I talk about it being Black Silence. I cant bypass the pre-amp though I can only use the 7.1 Analogue in and set the volume to 0dB.

Z0001 · « **Reply #46 on:** August 07, 2014, 05:19:40 am »

Quote from: Z0001 on August 01, 2014, 03:40:54 am

If we go the USB DAC + power amps route for MC, what do I need to fill the gap for my couple of separates? Do I need a separate pre-amp between theand the power amp? Or can I route line level back to MC? Buying a separate pre-amp would be a pain and not elegant.

Appreciate your wise thoughts
Z

Any feedback on my question about how to integrate separates components into a MC-external multichannel DAC-power amp set up?

Cheers
Z

DHF · « **Reply #47 on:** August 07, 2014, 11:00:16 am »

Z0001

I am not sure I understand your questions, but I will give it a shot.

Many DACS on the market have a volume control on them - which gives them the capability of going straight into a power amp. I heard wonderful things when this was done.

Many of the DACS have multiple digital inputs - so multiple sources can be used.

Video is a hopefully solve able challenge.

So, in this setup, there would be no need for a preamp. Just an amplifier. It would be limited to digital sources only,

Z0001 · « **Reply #48 on:** August 08, 2014, 03:47:19 am »

Thanks DHF

I guess my thinking is that I need source switching and volume control. Which you point out is often found in DACs so thanks for explaining.

So with DACs I'm guessing that they need a processor to have processed the audio before they convet to analogue, of course MC does this processing, but I don't know for example about the digital tuner or the blu ray player. Will these likely deliver a decoded digital signal eg out of SPDIF or HDMI? I am assuming so.

Thanks
Z

Hilton · « **Reply #49 on:** August 08, 2014, 05:42:16 am »

Quote from: Z0001 on August 08, 2014, 03:47:19 am

Thanks DHF

I guess my thinking is that I need source switching and volume control. Which you point out is often found in DACs so thanks for explaining.

So with DACs I'm guessing that they need a processor to have processed the audio before they convet to analogue, of course MC does this processing, but I don't know for example about the digital tuner or the blu ray player. Will these likely deliver a decoded digital signal eg out of SPDIF or HDMI? I am assuming so.

Thanks
Z

You might find something like the NuForce MCP-18 Multichannel Analog Preamplifier of use for input switching.
A reasonable review of it here but it only has a SNR of 105dB.
http://www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/nuforce-mcp-18-multichannel-analog-preamplifier/

Or an Emotiva UMC-200 7.1 Channel AV Preamp
http://hometheaterreview.com/emotiva-umc-200-71-channel-av-preamp-reviewed/

Using either of the above creates a bit of a compromise in terms of the raw purist Source > DAC > AMP setup, but if you want flexibility for other components you need to compromise somewhere.
Where multi-channel is concerned with multiple input requirements your heading back into AV territory anyway and have to decide what you want to compromise on.

You could go for a high end AV preamp, with either, all the bells and whistles, or with a less is more approach, or live with the limitation of multichannel and 2channel DACS and have a separate AV system.

It really depends on all the variables in the components you could choose from.

One approach is to get a multichannel or 2 channel DAC with volume control and an AMP with 2 sets of switchable inputs so you can switch between the DAC setup on one set of AMP inputs and an AV preamp on the other for all your other gear.

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Author Topic: JRiver + HTPC + Multichannel DAC = AVR Replacement? (Read 50703 times)