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Author Topic: Dolby Atmos  (Read 48906 times)

kamenoff

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Dolby Atmos
« on: September 02, 2014, 01:28:35 am »

Guys, I was wondering can the MC play Dolby Atmos BR?
What about the Auro 3D sound? Are the different channel outputs on MC similar to the AV processors available today with Auro 3D?
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fitbrit

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Re: Dolby Atmos
« Reply #1 on: September 02, 2014, 09:32:31 am »

All I think I know is that a company is developing a VST plug-in that can deal with Auro, and therefore could be used with MC. It might not be cheap, and might come bundled in a hardware package. Another member here may have better details, but I'm not sure if there is an NDA or not.

As for Atmos, it's still in the very early days. There are definitely no open source decoders, if decoders is even the right terminology to apply here.
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Hendrik

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Re: Dolby Atmos
« Reply #2 on: September 02, 2014, 09:37:58 am »

Atmos is weird, I'm not sure it'll even be really properly handleable in a generic way in a PC.
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TobiMan

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Re: Dolby Atmos
« Reply #3 on: September 02, 2014, 04:47:10 pm »

All I think I know is that a company is developing a VST plug-in that can deal with Auro, and therefore could be used with MC. It might not be cheap, and might come bundled in a hardware package. Another member here may have better details, but I'm not sure if there is an NDA or not.

As for Atmos, it's still in the very early days. There are definitely no open source decoders, if decoders is even the right terminology to apply here.

mojave told something about a VST Plugin for Auro in this thread http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=89810.msg616896#msg616896, but there's nothing new.

Here's a nice report of the Galaxy Studios (it's German, but perhaps it will give some interesting impressions...):

Part 1 http://youtu.be/xDcHcK84nUk

Part 2 http://youtu.be/nUZncnx5Go8
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retro

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Re: Dolby Atmos
« Reply #4 on: September 02, 2014, 05:36:48 pm »

Atmos is weird, I'm not sure it'll even be really properly handleable in a generic way in a PC.

Why not..? What's so special about Atmos..??
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Sparks67

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Re: Dolby Atmos
« Reply #5 on: September 02, 2014, 08:50:31 pm »


Here is a good review of Dolby Atmos, but it is hardware based.  http://hometheaterreview.com/dolby-atmos-at-home-the-known-knowns-and-the-known-unknowns/ 
Here is a link about the speaker placement for Dolby Atmos.   http://www.audioholics.com/audio-technologies/dolby-atmos-home-theater-101    Nvidia is about to release a new GTX 980, but it I have no specs on it.  http://www.tweaktown.com/news/39979/nvidia-rumored-to-skip-the-geforce-800-series-with-gtx-980-coming/index.html  So does it have HDMI 2.0?  That is the roadblock.   

I wouldn't recommend you be a first adopter, because there will be issues with Dolby Atmos. All the receivers are now coming from China, so forget quality control.  Denon has more units coming out in 2015, but still they are made in China.  Dolby Atmos has around 100 titles, but that is still not enough.   

Now if you can afford the Trinnov Preamplifier, then it is only $25,000.   http://www.trinnov.com/products/high-end/altitude32/introduction-altitude32/introduction-4/  Appears you be limited to streaming for a few years.  There is possibility of optical media format, but we have to wait in 2018.   
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fitbrit

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Re: Dolby Atmos
« Reply #6 on: September 02, 2014, 09:42:28 pm »

mojave told something about a VST Plugin for Auro in this thread http://yabb.JRiver.com/interact/index.php?topic=89810.msg616896#msg616896, but there's nothing new.

Here's a nice report of the Galaxy Studios (it's German, but perhaps it will give some interesting impressions...):

Part 1 http://youtu.be/xDcHcK84nUk

Part 2 http://youtu.be/nUZncnx5Go8

Yeah, I didn't want to put mojave in the spotlight, so didn't mention his name and kept things vague. :)
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TobiMan

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Re: Dolby Atmos
« Reply #7 on: September 03, 2014, 12:21:34 pm »

Yeah, I didn't want to put mojave in the spotlight, so didn't mention his name and kept things vague. :)

ahem... yeah well... it worked for one post  ;D
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mattkhan

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Re: Dolby Atmos
« Reply #8 on: September 03, 2014, 01:09:13 pm »

Here is a good review of Dolby Atmos, but it is hardware based.  http://hometheaterreview.com/dolby-atmos-at-home-the-known-knowns-and-the-known-unknowns/ 
Here is a link about the speaker placement for Dolby Atmos.   http://www.audioholics.com/audio-technologies/dolby-atmos-home-theater-101    Nvidia is about to release a new GTX 980, but it I have no specs on it.  http://www.tweaktown.com/news/39979/nvidia-rumored-to-skip-the-geforce-800-series-with-gtx-980-coming/index.html  So does it have HDMI 2.0?  That is the roadblock.   

I wouldn't recommend you be a first adopter, because there will be issues with Dolby Atmos. All the receivers are now coming from China, so forget quality control.  Denon has more units coming out in 2015, but still they are made in China.  Dolby Atmos has around 100 titles, but that is still not enough.   

Now if you can afford the Trinnov Preamplifier, then it is only $25,000.   http://www.trinnov.com/products/high-end/altitude32/introduction-altitude32/introduction-4/  Appears you be limited to streaming for a few years.  There is possibility of optical media format, but we have to wait in 2018.   
What does atmos have to do with HDMI 2? It is just an additional stream in a truehd container so is completely backwards compatible with existing kit.
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fitbrit

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Re: Dolby Atmos
« Reply #9 on: September 03, 2014, 03:05:19 pm »

Atmos can also use more speakers than the 7.1 channels supported by HDMI 1.4.
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sirkus

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Re: Dolby Atmos
« Reply #10 on: September 03, 2014, 04:53:32 pm »

I think for this, you have to pay license to Dolby&Co. And, I suspect that they want to control the sound stream till the DA conversion (no ASIO or WASAPI).
If not, I'm sure that there are people who are ready to pay for a "licensed" edition of MC... like me  ;)
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mattkhan

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Re: Dolby Atmos
« Reply #11 on: September 03, 2014, 05:28:24 pm »

Atmos can also use more speakers than the 7.1 channels supported by HDMI 1.4.
ah you mean going out from an HTPC to a prepro? yes that wouldn't work unless you limit yourself to a 5.1.2 layout, you'd need to go the external audio device/dac route and then straight onto the amps. It's still doable on an HTPC though.
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Sparks67

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Re: Dolby Atmos
« Reply #12 on: September 08, 2014, 01:27:21 am »

What does atmos have to do with HDMI 2? It is just an additional stream in a truehd container so is completely backwards compatible with existing kit.

HDMI 2.0 spec allows for 32 channels audio.  HDMI 1.4 is atmos capable, but only allows for 8 channels.  The speaker setup is different on atmos than 7.1 setup.   When I am ready to pay for Atmos, then it be more speakers than 7.1. 
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Sparks67

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Re: Dolby Atmos
« Reply #13 on: September 08, 2014, 02:00:18 am »

Atmos can also use more speakers than the 7.1 channels supported by HDMI 1.4.

No! Avsforum said that you are still limited to 8 channels on HDMI 1.4.  The speaker setup is different than 7.1, but it appears you just add 4 speakers on the ceiling. 
I don't have HDMI 1.4, but 1.3a on my denon avr-5308.   If you have HDMI 1.4 and you are itching for Dolby Atmos, then go for it.     

Really depends on your equipment, and your future plans. 
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apgood

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Re:
« Reply #14 on: September 08, 2014, 02:26:06 am »

If you bitstream Atmos will be supported by all bluray players that adhere to the blurray spec.  This because the extra channels are just object data in the base 7.1 channels of the TrueHD bitstream which is then decoded by the atmos capable processor into the channel format you have setup. This means jriver media center should work fine if you are just bitstreaming as it would just be passing on the TrueHD. If you want jriver media center to do the decoding then you would be out of luck as it stands now.
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rec head

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Re: Dolby Atmos
« Reply #15 on: September 09, 2014, 08:49:58 am »

I don't know if I'll jump on these first gen Atmos AVR's but I'm sure my next one will be Atmos enabled. I will build more speakers and want to enjoy them playing from MC. I think I may have a simple if imperfect solution to make it easy. From what I understand as long as a bluray player can bitstream TrueHD then it will work. Why not do something similar to the new save/load DSP settings and save the option to bitstream per movie? That way we could have the default be to let MC decode apply DSP etc. but when an Atmos movie is selected then MC automatically bitstreams it because it has the bitstream option selected. MC could even ask as movies are imported if you want them to be bitstreamed. Of course there would be the "do not show this message in the future" message so the people that don't need it don't have to deal with it each time. Sure the user will have to make sure the bitstream option is selected because I don't think there would be any way for MC to know that it is an Atmos soundtrack and we will lose any DSP functions but we gain easy switching.

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mattkhan

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Re: Dolby Atmos
« Reply #16 on: September 09, 2014, 09:40:05 am »

the Q of an atmos decoder for the PC is asked towards the end of http://twit.tv/show/home-theater-geeks/222

the A given is that they (Dolby) have nothing to announce at this time but that there is nothing to stop that happening, on the positive side.... at least it's not an outright no.

Who wrote the decoder for TrueHD? is that an opensource effort or was the code contributed by dolby?
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rec head

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Re: Dolby Atmos
« Reply #17 on: September 09, 2014, 10:57:59 am »

It would be great for a PC decoder and ultimately that is what I would like to have. My point is that MC can get ahead of this and be ready as soon as the Atmos content is available.
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Hendrik

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Re: Dolby Atmos
« Reply #18 on: September 09, 2014, 11:03:03 am »

Who wrote the decoder for TrueHD? is that an opensource effort or was the code contributed by dolby?

Dolby contributing? Muhahahaha.  ::)
TrueHD is not even its own codec, its a variation on the MLP codec, which is far older, and made it much easier to produce a open-source decoder for.
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mattkhan

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Re: Dolby Atmos
« Reply #19 on: September 09, 2014, 11:39:43 am »

Dolby contributing? Muhahahaha.  ::)
TrueHD is not even its own codec, its a variation on the MLP codec, which is far older, and made it much easier to produce a open-source decoder for.
I thought that might be the answer :)

So it will come down to being able to successfully decode the atmos stream from the truehd track and mix the object metadata into the physical pcm streams such that the objects are located correctly? It all seems doable at least on the surface.
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mikela8

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Re: Dolby Atmos
« Reply #20 on: September 17, 2014, 11:21:10 pm »

It would be great for a PC decoder and ultimately that is what I would like to have. My point is that MC can get ahead of this and be ready as soon as the Atmos content is available.

+1
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fitbrit

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Re: Dolby Atmos
« Reply #21 on: September 17, 2014, 11:35:51 pm »

No! Avsforum said that you are still limited to 8 channels on HDMI 1.4.  The speaker setup is different than 7.1, but it appears you just add 4 speakers on the ceiling. 
I don't have HDMI 1.4, but 1.3a on my denon avr-5308.   If you have HDMI 1.4 and you are itching for Dolby Atmos, then go for it.     

Really depends on your equipment, and your future plans. 

You are right. I think Auro might be different though.


If you bitstream Atmos will be supported by all bluray players that adhere to the blurray spec.  This because the extra channels are just object data in the base 7.1 channels of the TrueHD bitstream which is then decoded by the atmos capable processor into the channel format you have setup. This means jriver media center should work fine if you are just bitstreaming as it would just be passing on the TrueHD. If you want jriver media center to do the decoding then you would be out of luck as it stands now.

Does that mean that in MC all we need to do is bitstream TrueHD and an Atmos receiver will take care of the rest - assuming we have the ceiling or Atmos speakers installed? It certainly sounds like it.

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jctcom

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Re: Dolby Atmos
« Reply #22 on: September 18, 2014, 01:20:04 am »

I think for this, you have to pay license to Dolby&Co. And, I suspect that they want to control the sound stream till the DA conversion (no ASIO or WASAPI).
If not, I'm sure that there are people who are ready to pay for a "licensed" edition of MC... like me  ;)

Why wouldn't you just do a "pass-thru" to a compatible receiver like most of us already for for Dolby TruHD, DTS-HD etc...?

Carl.

apgood

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Re: Re: Re: Dolby Atmos
« Reply #23 on: September 18, 2014, 02:33:30 am »

You are right. I think Auro might be different though.


Does that mean that in MC all we need to do is bitstream TrueHD and an Atmos receiver will take care of the rest - assuming we have the ceiling or Atmos speakers installed? It certainly sounds like it.

Yes that is my understanding based on what I have read.

Edit:  Should clarify that I'm not sure what the situation is with Auro.
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prerich

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Re: Dolby Atmos
« Reply #24 on: September 19, 2014, 10:38:43 am »

Why wouldn't you just do a "pass-thru" to a compatible receiver like most of us already for for Dolby TruHD, DTS-HD etc...?

Carl.
Some of us actually use our PC's as prepros....taking the receiver out of question altogether.  I for one, don't see myself going back to a receiver anytime soon. The Onkyo's seem to come up with new HDMI issues every year.  I have a HT-RC180 (807) that's a brick right now! I went to using my PC as a prepro and never looked back. If something goes wrong - Like Felix Jr. - "I can fix it"!!!

Using "pass-thru" also puts you at the mercy of the dac in your receiver and your receivers eq options.  Most Onkyo's no longer have Audyssey and if you use "pass-thru" you can't use JRiver's PEQ options and Room Correction...(or anything in DSP Studio for that matter).  If we were using a receiver - we might as well buy an Oppo (or any other quality standalone) and call it a day...IMHO.  ;)
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jctcom

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Re: Dolby Atmos
« Reply #25 on: September 19, 2014, 10:51:31 am »

Some of us actually use our PC's as prepros....taking the receiver out of question altogether.  I for one, don't see myself going back to a receiver anytime soon. The Onkyo's seem to come up with new HDMI issues every year.  I have a HT-RC180 (807) that's a brick right now! I went to using my PC as a prepro and never looked back. If something goes wrong - Like Felix Jr. - "I can fix it"!!!

Using "pass-thru" also puts you at the mercy of the dac in your receiver and your receivers eq options.  Most Onkyo's no longer have Audyssey and if you use "pass-thru" you can't use JRiver's PEQ options and Room Correction...(or anything in DSP Studio for that matter).  If we were using a receiver - we might as well buy an Oppo (or any other quality standalone) and call it a day...IMHO.  ;)

No problem.  I am sure it is a matter of opinion.  I prefer sending the raw signal and letting the receiver do the processing (Although I won't be buying another Onkyo in the future.  Back to Yamaha for me!).  That way when I have a mix that contains both 5.1 tracks and stereo tracks I can set the receiver to play the 5.1 tracks in their native surround as they were recorded (A preference for me to be sure) and when the stereo tracks come up I can have it use Audyssey to upgrade it to surround.  I like the music to come as close to the original recording as much as possible.  A lot of the time I don't even process the stereo tracks into surround depending on the album.

I still don't watch much video stuff (unless it is a music video attached to an album) via JRiver or the computer (Use Popcorn Hour A-400 for that).

Carl

rec head

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Re: Dolby Atmos
« Reply #26 on: September 19, 2014, 12:22:52 pm »

Some of us actually use our PC's as prepros....taking the receiver out of question altogether.  I for one, don't see myself going back to a receiver anytime soon. The Onkyo's seem to come up with new HDMI issues every year.  I have a HT-RC180 (807) that's a brick right now! I went to using my PC as a prepro and never looked back. If something goes wrong - Like Felix Jr. - "I can fix it"!!!

Using "pass-thru" also puts you at the mercy of the dac in your receiver and your receivers eq options.  Most Onkyo's no longer have Audyssey and if you use "pass-thru" you can't use JRiver's PEQ options and Room Correction...(or anything in DSP Studio for that matter).  If we were using a receiver - we might as well buy an Oppo (or any other quality standalone) and call it a day...IMHO.  ;)

I think your setup sounds really cool. I think you probably have accepted that you won't have all the newest surround formats and commercial EQ like Audyssey anyway. Atmos is what it is and right now the only way to use it it to bitstream it to an AVR or pre/pro.

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mojave

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Re: Dolby Atmos
« Reply #27 on: September 19, 2014, 12:29:23 pm »

I think you probably have accepted that you won't have all the newest surround formats and commercial EQ like Audyssey anyway.
Commercial EQ for the PC like Audiolense, Acourate, and Dirac Live far exceed the limited capability of Audyssey. The Datasat RS20i pre/pro at around $18,000 is the only commercial receiver I know of that matches the capability of an HTPC with JRiver, an EQ program, and a multi-channel DAC.
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rec head

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Re: Dolby Atmos
« Reply #28 on: September 19, 2014, 02:44:45 pm »

I wasn't knocking anything. I just meant that AVR's are probably the fastest, cheapest and easiest way to get the new stuff.
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Sparks67

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Re: Dolby Atmos
« Reply #29 on: September 20, 2014, 01:16:14 am »

You are right. I think Auro might be different though.

I read a little on Auro 3D, but just looking at their website.   There is not enough movies to justify the cost at this point.   Really it is all about content that is available. 
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fitbrit

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Re: Dolby Atmos
« Reply #30 on: September 20, 2014, 10:27:23 pm »

Some of us actually use our PC's as prepros....taking the receiver out of question altogether.  I for one, don't see myself going back to a receiver anytime soon. The Onkyo's seem to come up with new HDMI issues every year.  I have a HT-RC180 (807) that's a brick right now! I went to using my PC as a prepro and never looked back. If something goes wrong - Like Felix Jr. - "I can fix it"!!!

Using "pass-thru" also puts you at the mercy of the dac in your receiver and your receivers eq options.  Most Onkyo's no longer have Audyssey and if you use "pass-thru" you can't use JRiver's PEQ options and Room Correction...(or anything in DSP Studio for that matter).  If we were using a receiver - we might as well buy an Oppo (or any other quality standalone) and call it a day...IMHO.  ;)

In case you haven't seen this, this might make that brick worth something:
http://www.onkyousa.com/Support/service_info.php#
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jctcom

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Re: Dolby Atmos
« Reply #31 on: September 20, 2014, 10:57:03 pm »

In case you haven't seen this, this might make that brick worth something:
http://www.onkyousa.com/Support/service_info.php#

Hehe.  I bet the company that repaired my unit under extended warranty 6 months ago would have liked to have seen that.  This is exactly the reason I stated above switching back to Yamaha.  lol

fitbrit

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Re: Dolby Atmos
« Reply #32 on: September 20, 2014, 11:56:13 pm »

Hehe.  I bet the company that repaired my unit under extended warranty 6 months ago would have liked to have seen that.  This is exactly the reason I stated above switching back to Yamaha.  lol

I've had a 5007 unit repaired for free by Onkyo out of warranty. They've also extended the warranty on most of the affected models to 2018. I for one have no qualms about their Audessey receivers. The three that I have are more recent models that are not so affected by the HDMI board failures.
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prerich

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Re: Dolby Atmos
« Reply #33 on: October 08, 2014, 08:03:22 am »

No problem.  I am sure it is a matter of opinion.  I prefer sending the raw signal and letting the receiver do the processing (Although I won't be buying another Onkyo in the future.  Back to Yamaha for me!).  That way when I have a mix that contains both 5.1 tracks and stereo tracks I can set the receiver to play the 5.1 tracks in their native surround as they were recorded (A preference for me to be sure) and when the stereo tracks come up I can have it use Audyssey to upgrade it to surround.  I like the music to come as close to the original recording as much as possible.  A lot of the time I don't even process the stereo tracks into surround depending on the album.

I still don't watch much video stuff (unless it is a music video attached to an album) via JRiver or the computer (Use Popcorn Hour A-400 for that).

Carl
Audyssey doesn't upgrade to surround - it's not a surround processor.  Audyssey is a room correction tool (to measure your room properly). :) 

For music to come as close to the original recording - your room must be right.  Other than the speakers - the component that you "hear" the most is your room.  This is why you can demo speakers in one environment, and in the next one - they sound totally different.  Room  correction (be it by physical treatment - sound panels and bass traps, or via DSP -audyssey, PEQ, REW, DIRAC etc) is necessary to get the sound you seek. The only processing that I use on stereo tracks is Room Correction/PEQ - to achieve the flattest sound possible from my speakers.

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prerich

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Re: Dolby Atmos
« Reply #34 on: October 08, 2014, 08:09:11 am »

In case you haven't seen this, this might make that brick worth something:
http://www.onkyousa.com/Support/service_info.php#
Thanks - going to get it repaired  :), but it will just be a backup. I will not leave my HTPC as a prepro...sounds way better than bit-streaming to the Onkyo.
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fitbrit

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Re: Dolby Atmos
« Reply #35 on: October 08, 2014, 11:35:46 am »

Audyssey doesn't upgrade to surround - it's not a surround processor.  Audyssey is a room correction tool (to measure your room properly). :)  

Actually, Onkyo receivers have Audessey DSX, which is a surround processor that can upmix audio to incorporate height or wide channels up to 11.x.
It cannot add in surround back channels, so it's often added with Dolby PLIIx first to upmix anything 5.1 or lower to 7.1 before applying DSX to 9.1 or even 11.1.
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prerich

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Re: Dolby Atmos
« Reply #36 on: October 09, 2014, 11:50:03 am »

Actually, Onkyo receivers have Audessey DSX, which is a surround processor that can upmix audio to incorporate height or wide channels up to 11.x.
It cannot add in surround back channels, so it's often added with Dolby PLIIx first to upmix anything 5.1 or lower to 7.1 before applying DSX to 9.1 or even 11.1.
10-4, you are correct - I forgot about DSX. I never used it in my Onkyo.  :-X
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fitbrit

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Re: Dolby Atmos
« Reply #37 on: October 09, 2014, 03:29:36 pm »

10-4, you are correct - I forgot about DSX. I never used it in my Onkyo.  :-X

A pity. I really liked DSX, especially going to 11.1 from a JRSS 7.1 input. Then I tried DTS-NEO:X, and found something even better.
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sirkus

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Re: Dolby Atmos
« Reply #38 on: October 09, 2014, 04:21:24 pm »

Quote
The Datasat RS20i pre/pro at around $18,000 is the only commercial receiver I know of that matches the capability of an HTPC with JRiver, an EQ program, and a multi-channel DAC.

Which is no more than a computer (~$1500) + a digital sound card (~$600) + Dirac (~$1000) + some quality audio plugins ($400) => $3500 + DACs (~$500 x stereo channels) = $7500 max
More than $10.000 for packaging, integration and dolby stuff, that's the typical "High-End" buisness. And it will lose most of its value over (short) time.

So, will I pay $10.000 to play with Dolby from time-to-time? No.Will I downgrade my audio path quality to play with Dolby from time-to-time for less money? No.

But.. I keep an eye on the upcoming Marantz AV8802... maybe... who knows...  ?
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bulldogger

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Re: Dolby Atmos
« Reply #39 on: January 03, 2015, 07:08:14 am »

DTS Master audio has the biggest presence in Blu Ray. They are releasing DTS:X an object based codec to compete with Dolby Atmos. If you do a search for Blu ray spec however, you'll see a few small amount of even 7.1 sound tracks. The new codecs are going to be fun but don't expect many titles. That's always been the case. DTS and Dolby release formats to stay relevant but then most disc still remain 5.1 for the vast majority of titles.
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