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Author Topic: Case Sensitive Folders  (Read 5066 times)

Vocalpoint

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Case Sensitive Folders
« on: September 06, 2014, 08:42:12 am »

We don't change the case of folders if we find the folder already existing.  Maybe we could, but I'm not sure.

Would appreciate a look if possible - or update RM&C to clearly state that a rename is not going to happen.

As it stands now - RM&C makes it look like it's going to carry through with the rename - when it's really not.

For me (and maybe others) - I would prefer the folder case structure to be exactly what I need it to be.

VP

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6233638

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Case Sensitive Folders
« Reply #1 on: September 06, 2014, 08:49:06 am »

I'm not sure that Media Center is completely to blame here. I often find that if I rename a file/folder in Explorer just to change the case, when I refresh the view it's back to what it was before.
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Vocalpoint

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Case Sensitive Folders
« Reply #2 on: September 06, 2014, 09:01:21 am »

I'm not sure that Media Center is completely to blame here. I often find that if I rename a file/folder in Explorer just to change the case, when I refresh the view it's back to what it was before.

True dat.

However - Matt is stating that MC does not even try to correct the folder case if it already exists. That does not mean it cannot complete the task correctly.

I haven't seen what your are seeing - except for rare instances (at work usually) when a Windows user does not have the rights to change a specific folder name. Here at home - as admin on all my machines - once I make a hard change - it always sticks.

VP
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Krazykanuck

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Case Sensitive Folders
« Reply #3 on: September 06, 2014, 09:44:59 am »

To fix the case I have always run RM&C twice.
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Vocalpoint

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Case Sensitive Folders
« Reply #4 on: September 06, 2014, 10:40:06 am »

To fix the case I have always run RM&C twice.

I can run it indefinitely with no changes to the actual folders. I have to resort to doing in manually - which - can be a pain.

I just tested more behavior - and if I tell RM&C to actually "move" this FKA Twigs record to a empty location with nothing it - RM&C actually does writes the folder structure there with the correct case (per my desired settings in Artist\Album Artist and Album)

So it looks as tho MC ignores any case changes if the files are in their current location/folder structure (Rename) but does it correctly if the files/folder do not exist in a specific target location (Move or Copy)

FWIW: I think RM&C should be amended to properly "rename" ALL folders if asked to perform a "rename" operation. If the folders are there - they should be renamed (or even recreated) per the rules and parameters the user is specifically requesting via the RM&C interface.

VP

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Krazykanuck

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Case Sensitive Folders
« Reply #5 on: September 06, 2014, 11:20:26 am »

I agree with you. MC should be case sensitive.

When I said I run it twice I would run it once as FKAx then FKA so that MC creates the new folders.
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connersw

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Case Sensitive Folders
« Reply #6 on: September 06, 2014, 07:32:56 pm »

I'm not sure that Media Center is completely to blame here. I often find that if I rename a file/folder in Explorer just to change the case, when I refresh the view it's back to what it was before.
Windows should be case-preserving.

+1 if this could be looked at and corrected.  It has tripped me up more than once when doing a quick RM&C w/o doing a Clean first. If I manually edit in Windows Explorer, it fixes it, but then obviously re-Imports the Files.  Granted, I'm usually in Windows Explorer any way since I have to manually move Cover Art, rip logs, recording logs, etc (hint, hint).

The issue seems to only effect Filename (path), not Filename (name).
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ferday

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Case Sensitive Folders
« Reply #7 on: September 06, 2014, 08:19:34 pm »

Windows should be case-preserving.

+1 if this could be looked at and corrected.  It has tripped me up more than once when doing a quick RM&C w/o doing a Clean first. If I manually edit in Windows Explorer, it fixes it, but then obviously re-Imports the Files.  Granted, I'm usually in Windows Explorer any way since I have to manually move Cover Art, rip logs, recording logs, etc (hint, hint).

The issue seems to only effect Filename (path), not Filename (name).

Yes, case preserving and case insensitive, so when renaming (rather than moving) windows will not change the existing folder case.  Like 6233638 mentioned, I find windows doesn't always respect my case changes to folders even in explorer.  With files, it always works...?   I have no idea if MC could fix that or not....it doesn't bother me none anyways but I can see situations where it would be annoying

As to your using explorer to move files....I agree 100% I wish MC would move them easily (hint hint again)....but there are workarounds.  I no longer use explorer to move anything, it just takes some view creations and a little extra tagging for the .log, .cue, .jpg, etc.
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6233638

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Case Sensitive Folders
« Reply #8 on: September 07, 2014, 08:01:16 am »

Windows should be case-preserving.
Not in my experience, at least on Windows 8.1
 
If I change "abc" to "ABCD" it works as expected. If I rename "abc" to "ABC" the change is usually discarded when I refresh the view.
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Arindelle

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« Reply #9 on: September 07, 2014, 08:10:59 am »

not following this too closely, but I hope you don't mean you want JR to be case sensitive with path names?  That would really mess me up. Making it look nice is fine, but if its interpreted like changing the file name does, ouch.
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connersw

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« Reply #10 on: September 07, 2014, 08:34:47 am »

Not in my experience, at least on Windows 8.1
 
If I change "abc" to "ABCD" it works as expected. If I rename "abc" to "ABC" the change is usually discarded when I refresh the view.

I don't use Windows 8.1, but I know for a fact up through Windows 7 it is case preserving.  I make changes like the example you gave regularly, and they hold.  Not sure why it would change in Windows 8. 

not following this too closely, but I hope you don't mean you want JR to be case sensitive with path names?  That would really mess me up. Making it look nice is fine, but if its interpreted like changing the file name does, ouch.

We're referring to case preservation, not case sensitivity.  Windows is case preserving and case insensitive.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Case_preservation
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mwillems

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Case Sensitive Folders
« Reply #11 on: September 07, 2014, 10:04:00 am »

not following this too closely, but I hope you don't mean you want JR to be case sensitive with path names?  That would really mess me up. Making it look nice is fine, but if its interpreted like changing the file name does, ouch.

Case preservation is tremendously important for those of us with mixed windows and Linux environments.  I've gotten gigged by this a couple times where I thought I'd used Rename to change the directory case on the windows side, but it hadn't actually changed, which goofed up maintenance scripts on the Linux side because Linux is case sensitive. 
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6233638

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« Reply #12 on: September 07, 2014, 10:36:06 am »

Case sensitivity for a filesystem is really dumb.
Case preservation is nice to have - I really don't know why Windows 8 isn't saving it unless the name changes as well.
 
It's been a couple of years since using Windows 7 now, so I'm not sure whether or not it saves case changes, or if the filename also has to change, just like Windows 8. I'd be surprised if the behavior was any different.
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mwillems

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« Reply #13 on: September 07, 2014, 01:56:46 pm »

Case sensitivity for a filesystem is really dumb.

Fun fact, NTFS actually is case-sensitive, Windows at the OS level prevents you from creating files that only differ by case for compatibility reasons (I can create two different files named "File" and "file" on an NTFS drive in Linux).  Almost all the common Linux and Unix filesystems are case sensitive.  The only commonly used case insensitive filesystems I'm aware of are the HFS and FAT families of filesystems; and even there, HFS Plus supports case-sensitivity, it's just insensitive by default.  

Once I got used to it, there are some things I quite like about case insensitive filesystems (once I got out of the habit of arbitrarily capitalizing filenames).
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6233638

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« Reply #14 on: September 07, 2014, 02:22:19 pm »

I can create two different files named "File" and "file" on an NTFS drive in Linux
Yes, exactly. When would that ever be a useful feature?
99.999..% of the time, it is going to be a hassle to deal with, rather than being beneficial.
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Vocalpoint

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« Reply #15 on: September 07, 2014, 02:53:16 pm »

It is going to be a hassle to deal with, rather than being beneficial.

The only hassle I have right now is RM&C saying it's going to honor my specific requirements and then it simply ignores them. And I can think of a number key reasons why I need correct case...searching being one of them. Archive compliance, specific sort ordering and on and on. Never mind just the true, correct name for a given album or artist etc.

If the Artist wanted their album to be called Lp1 - they would have given it that name. If I wanted a folder to be called Lp1 - I would name it that. But I want my metadata (and ALL archive files and folders) to be 100% precise to my specs or I am wasting my time. Right now - if Media Center is ignoring my folder naming efforts - it is wasting my time.

Given the power(and flexibility) in this tool - this should not be an argument or even a debate. It should be about RM&C allowing ANYONE to set paths/folders/file names etc based on their specific naming conventions and case - and having RM&C then create the correct path/filenames in the exact way the user is asking for.

VP
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mwillems

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Case Sensitive Folders
« Reply #16 on: September 07, 2014, 03:06:09 pm »

Yes, exactly. When would that ever be a useful feature?
99.999..% of the time, it is going to be a hassle to deal with, rather than being beneficial.

My point was that a majority of deployed filesystems support it; obviously someone finds it useful or you would expect to see it falling out of modern filesystems or treading water.  Instead it's just the opposite; NTFS, HFS+, ZFS, and BTRFS all support it, and it's primarily antiquated systems (like FAT) that don't support it at all.  

There are a lot of arguments for or against; from my perspective, it simplifies scripting and file sorting, and simplifies certain types of searches.  It also makes some things more complicated, obviously.
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6233638

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« Reply #17 on: September 07, 2014, 03:14:37 pm »

The only hassle I have right now is RM&C saying it's going to honor my specific requirements and then it simply ignores them. And I can think of a number key reasons why I need correct case...searching being one of them. Archive compliance, specific sort ordering and on and on. Never mind just the true, correct name for a given album or artist etc.

If the Artist wanted their album to be called Lp1 - they would have given it that name. If I wanted a folder to be called Lp1 - I would name it that. But I want my metadata (and ALL archive files and folders) to be 100% precise to my specs or I am wasting my time. Right now - if Media Center is ignoring my folder naming efforts - it is wasting my time.

Given the power(and flexibility) in this tool - this should not be an argument or even a debate. It should be about RM&C allowing ANYONE to set paths/folders/file names etc based on their specific naming conventions and case - and having RM&C then create the correct path/filenames in the exact way the user is asking for.
To be clear, I agree that case preservation is important, and if it's something that Media Center can change, I'm all for it.
I cannot think of anywhere that case sensitivity would be helpful. (where "abc.txt" is a different file from "ABC.txt")
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Vocalpoint

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Case Sensitive Folders
« Reply #18 on: September 07, 2014, 03:19:12 pm »

I cannot think of anywhere that case sensitivity would be helpful. (where "abc.txt" is a different file from "ABC.txt")

If one step out of the Windows world - it's very important. Off the top  - my increasing use of Robocopy (Command Line within Windows) is VERY case sensitive in every respect. This can mean the difference between backup and no backup - which could have very serious impacts.

But yes - if all you are using is Windows - then maybe not so much.

VP
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6233638

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Case Sensitive Folders
« Reply #19 on: September 07, 2014, 03:25:19 pm »

If one step out of the Windows world - it's very important. Off the top  - my increasing use of Robocopy (Command Line within Windows) is VERY case sensitive in every respect. This can mean the difference between backup and no backup - which could have very serious impacts.
But yes - if all you are using is Windows - then maybe not so much.
I understand that it's important to be aware that other systems, and even some Windows tools are case-sensitive.
I'm saying that it's a poor design decision from a usability standpoint - your post is a perfect example of why things should be case-insensitive.
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Vocalpoint

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Re: Case Sensitive Folders
« Reply #20 on: September 07, 2014, 04:11:37 pm »

I'm saying that it's a poor design decision from a usability standpoint - your post is a perfect example of why things should be case-insensitive.

Well - I am not going to expend any energy on why Unix and other systems treat TEST.txt and Test.txt and test.txt as three separate entities. Those systems were built on different rules and principles - many of them much better than Windows will ever be.

All I care about is the case preservation and naming conventions that I desire on a specific case by case basis. Since Windows will accept a Folder called TEST and Test and tesT...I should be permitted to write these if I so desire using the RM&C tool.

Having them "ignored" (if they are already there) makes no sense. If I want to change,alter or destroy something - I should be able to.

Even more infuriating is the the message that MC posts when doing this - asking me if I want to "apply" the changes that I am about to make - and then MC simply ignores my changes anyway.

VP
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