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Author Topic: Tidal Music Service via JRiver?  (Read 65515 times)

riboge

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Tidal Music Service via JRiver?
« on: October 28, 2014, 10:01:02 am »

Is there a way to play Tidal via JRiver?  Is or will there be a plug-in or some such?  This service launched today.
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Arindelle

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Re: Tidal Music Service via JRiver?
« Reply #1 on: October 28, 2014, 11:20:15 am »

Should work with the new WDM driver. Can't test it here (France), but you get 7 days free so give it a shot.

BTW thanks, as I had never heard of another FLAC streaming service other than Qobuz  - same price too it appears (US and UK only at present)

note: 25 million albums compared to Qobuz at 14 million (march 2014 figures) - and where is Pono? .. aren't they supposed to launch this month too ...
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riboge

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Re: Tidal Music Service via JRiver?
« Reply #2 on: October 28, 2014, 01:32:10 pm »

Yes, it plays with the WDM driver thru Media Center if you start it in Tidal app on your device (pc) or at listen.tidalhifi.com via a Chrome browser, but you cannot get it to play directly from MC as with last.fm.

You can add the website to MC as connected media.  It brings up the site login but will not load their web player, which apparently will not work with MC's browser. 

[edit] I found I could switch to the Chromium engine which is the core of Chrome.  With this it will go to the player page and you can make a player selection.  But when you push play it goes to an error screen saying it lacks Adobe Flashplayer and you can go no further.
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6233638

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Re: Tidal Music Service via JRiver?
« Reply #3 on: October 28, 2014, 08:29:28 pm »

Signed up to give it a try. The selection seems reasonably good so far, especially when you consider that it's CD-quality.
 
Playback works well fed into Media Center via the WDM driver - though the app does not have an option for exclusive output which is disappointing.
 
Their app UI on the PC is horrible though. It's an Adobe AIR app with a very ugly design, and general usability is far below what I'm used to with Media Center... so I'm probably not going to continue with a paid subscription.
 
It's a shame there aren't any services which have all the albums you want, but have an app which lets you customize the views as well as Media Center does.
 
 
However there are one or two things that I do like. I like the tabs which let you switch between Studio Albums/EPs, Singles, and Albums which feature tracks from that artist.
 
I've been thinking about creating a similar view in Media Center to try and get things back under control (I recently started ripping a ton of singles, live albums, and remix albums) though there are a few things that would have to be changed for that to work well.
 
I also like that there is a notification which pops up when the track changes. That's something I'd like to see Media Center support now that both Windows and OSX have native app notifications.

and where is Pono? .. aren't they supposed to launch this month too ...
Aren't Pono selling tracks rather than streaming?
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Trumpetguy

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Re:
« Reply #4 on: October 29, 2014, 01:03:12 am »

Tidal is more or less Wimp HIFI launched outside Scandinavia. And as far as I understand, they plan to move away from Adobe air.
I have used wimp hifi since the start, and with the new wdm driver it works really good.

Now, tidal is not only lossless, the main benefit is that they re-ripped the entire catalog from studio masters a year ago. No transcoding from various sources of dubious server material.
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WeatherB

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Re: Tidal Music Service via JRiver?
« Reply #5 on: October 30, 2014, 05:04:48 pm »

OK...I tried a similar thing. TIDAL doesn't seem to work in MC20. So, I may need to try this through WDM. But what is a WDM? How do I know if I have it or need it? I would love to operate TIDAL through MC20, but I can't seem to get over this hurdle  ?. All help and details would be greatly appreciated!
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6233638

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Re: Tidal Music Service via JRiver?
« Reply #6 on: October 30, 2014, 08:52:24 pm »

OK...I tried a similar thing. TIDAL doesn't seem to work in MC20. So, I may need to try this through WDM. But what is a WDM? How do I know if I have it or need it? I would love to operate TIDAL through MC20, but I can't seem to get over this hurdle  ?. All help and details would be greatly appreciated!
If you install the latest version of MC20 (currently 20.0.30) it will also install a WDM Driver.
This is a virtual sound device and will show up as "Speakers (JRiver Media Center 20)" in the Tidal app.
 
As long as Media Center is open, when you play audio to this device, it gets routed through the Media Center audio engine.
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Eric05

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Re: Tidal Music Service via JRiver?
« Reply #7 on: October 31, 2014, 10:24:54 am »

Quote
and where is Pono? .. aren't they supposed to launch this month too ...

Pono is on its way... I was a kickstarter backer, I'm waiting for my pono player, it'll arrive soon. We receive emails saying that pono store will be open soon ! For US first, then Canada and UK and then Europe...
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garysi

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Re: Tidal Music Service via JRiver?
« Reply #8 on: November 01, 2014, 08:34:38 am »

I've installed Tidal and upgraded MC to .30.  I am using dirac as my default sound output to my DAC.  I may not be doing this correctly, but how can I get Tidal to play through MC if I cannot make the WDM my default sound source(Dirac is)?    Any help would be appreciated, as I am a newbie at some of this.
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6233638

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Re: Tidal Music Service via JRiver?
« Reply #9 on: November 01, 2014, 08:37:13 am »

I've installed Tidal and upgraded MC to .30.  I am using dirac as my default sound output to my DAC.  I may not be doing this correctly, but how can I get Tidal to play through MC if I cannot make the WDM my default sound source(Dirac is)?    Any help would be appreciated, as I am a newbie at some of this.
You make the WDM driver your default, and configure Media Center to output to the Dirac driver.
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Phil LD

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Re: Tidal Music Service via JRiver?
« Reply #10 on: November 01, 2014, 11:14:14 am »

Hi, I'm Phil from Lossless Digital. We are currently developing lossless.com. And we are devoted to integrate it with JRiver as we possibly can't do audio handling on Windows any better than JRiver does. The service though is still in development and not open to the public yet. If you are interested you can sign up to be notified when it will be.
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soarsz

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Re: Tidal Music Service via JRiver?
« Reply #11 on: November 01, 2014, 01:11:55 pm »

how does one make the WDM driver the default driver?
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JimH

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Re: Tidal Music Service via JRiver?
« Reply #12 on: November 01, 2014, 04:03:54 pm »

You set it in Windows.  Please read the first post of the WDM thread.
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WeatherB

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Re: Tidal Music Service via JRiver?
« Reply #13 on: November 02, 2014, 09:51:57 pm »

6233638:

Thank you. Works like a charm now!
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djwobbrock

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Re: Tidal Music Service via JRiver?
« Reply #14 on: November 11, 2014, 02:13:49 am »

I have been running Tidal for the last 5 days, and I was getting stuttering using WDM driver through MC20.27.  The stuttering was in the first 5 seconds of every song.  I increased buffer size incrementally to test, from 100, to 250 and eventually 500, this lost the stuttering in the first 5 seconds, but I still had random blips throughout the track.  I had Tidal set to the MC20 WDM driver.  When I set Tidal to use the IFI HD USB ASIO driver, the playback is smooth throughout the track.  I have experimented with the for the last two days, and have resigned myself to using Tidal without any of the sound improvements that may be offered using MC20 w/WDM drivers.  Problem seems to have something to do with buffering through MC20.  Too bad I already did the upgrade to MC20, which was done solely to us it with the Tidal streaming service.
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6233638

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Re: Tidal Music Service via JRiver?
« Reply #15 on: November 11, 2014, 02:21:25 am »

I have been running Tidal for the last 5 days, and I was getting stuttering using WDM driver through MC20.27.  The stuttering was in the first 5 seconds of every song.  I increased buffer size incrementally to test, from 100, to 250 and eventually 500, this lost the stuttering in the first 5 seconds, but I still had random blips throughout the track.
I only had the stuttering at the beginning of the track, but no buffer size got rid of the initial stuttering when going through the WDM driver. I abandoned it and resorted to using Loopback instead.
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djwobbrock

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Re: Tidal Music Service via JRiver?
« Reply #16 on: November 11, 2014, 02:25:26 am »

I contacted Tidal Support, and supposedly they fixed any stuttering/dropouts over last weekend.  I did lose the stuttering in the first 5 seconds today, but couldn't remove the intermittent blips with any buffer settings.  So much for MC20 and WDM!
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djwobbrock

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Re: Tidal Music Service via JRiver?
« Reply #17 on: November 11, 2014, 02:33:15 am »

I only had the stuttering at the beginning of the track, but no buffer size got rid of the initial stuttering when going through the WDM driver. I abandoned it and resorted to using Loopback instead.

Does Loopback play through MC?
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6233638

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Re: Tidal Music Service via JRiver?
« Reply #18 on: November 11, 2014, 02:46:33 am »

Does Loopback play through MC?
Yes, but it's manually activated rather than automatic, and you need a "spare" sound device.
 
I use the on-board audio on my PC which is not connected to anything.
Play music to that, then in Media Center use File → Open Live to activate loopback, which captures audio going to your default Windows sound device, and plays it through the current MC output.
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JimH

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Re: Tidal Music Service via JRiver?
« Reply #19 on: November 11, 2014, 06:05:14 am »

Did you try a very small buffer?

From the instructions:
Quote
You may need to adjust the buffer size down in Options > Audio > Device settings.  I used 10ms.
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6233638

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Re: Tidal Music Service via JRiver?
« Reply #20 on: November 11, 2014, 06:28:30 am »

Did you try a very small buffer?
Yes, I tried all combinations of device buffer sizes and latency.
I think the issue is that the Tidal app breaks the connection to the device on track change, and the WDM driver stutters when initializing.
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djwobbrock

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Re: Tidal Music Service via JRiver?
« Reply #21 on: November 11, 2014, 07:57:21 am »

Did you try a very small buffer?

From the instructions:

I just tried the quality setting in Tidal, from HIFI 1440bps, tried High quality, still got stuttering, when I went to Normal, no stuttering, playback was smooth, but the sound was sucked out because of a lower bitrate.  The purpose of Tidal streaming is of course CD Quality 1440bps!

So where do we go from here?  Is it the WDM driver, or MC20 causing this!
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bob

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Re: Tidal Music Service via JRiver?
« Reply #22 on: November 11, 2014, 02:46:51 pm »

I just tried the quality setting in Tidal, from HIFI 1440bps, tried High quality, still got stuttering, when I went to Normal, no stuttering, playback was smooth, but the sound was sucked out because of a lower bitrate.  The purpose of Tidal streaming is of course CD Quality 1440bps!

So where do we go from here?  Is it the WDM driver, or MC20 causing this!
More likely internet latency...

Try setting the
Tools->Options->Audio->Advanced->Live Playback Latency
to 500ms
also perhaps
Tools->Options->Audio->Audio Device->Device Settings->Buffering
to .50 seconds or so.
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JimH

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Re: Tidal Music Service via JRiver?
« Reply #23 on: November 11, 2014, 02:49:37 pm »

... tried High quality, still got stuttering, when I went to Normal, no stuttering, playback was smooth,
That could be just not enough Internet bandwidth available or heavy usage of Tidal servers.
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djwobbrock

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Re: Tidal Music Service via JRiver?
« Reply #24 on: November 11, 2014, 03:38:38 pm »

More likely internet latency...

Try setting the
Tools->Options->Audio->Advanced->Live Playback Latency
to 500ms
also perhaps
Tools->Options->Audio->Audio Device->Device Settings->Buffering
to .50 seconds or so.


I get no skipping or stuttering with MC20 and the IFI HD USB Asio driver, only get skipping and stuttering when using MC20 and WDM driver.
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djwobbrock

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Re: Tidal Music Service via JRiver?
« Reply #25 on: November 11, 2014, 03:40:04 pm »

That could be just not enough Internet bandwidth available or heavy usage of Tidal servers.

60mbps is not enough bandwidth?
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bob

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Re: Tidal Music Service via JRiver?
« Reply #26 on: November 11, 2014, 04:09:23 pm »

60mbps is not enough bandwidth?
I said latency.
Did you try the suggestion?
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djwobbrock

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Re: Tidal Music Service via JRiver?
« Reply #27 on: November 12, 2014, 04:15:35 am »

I said latency.
Did you try the suggestion?


Yes tried that for sure!  I downloaded the newest IFI ASIO driver V2.20 that has a custom ASIO Control Panel, more latency and buffering settings, Control Panel can be left open, and adjusted when playback is stopped.  All of the ASIO settings have stuttering either in the start of the track, or intermittently at random during playback.  Currently using IFI USB HD Audio (Wasapi), with default setting, 100ms buffering and playback latency at 50ms, with no problems so far!
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Trumpetguy

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Re: Tidal Music Service via JRiver?
« Reply #28 on: November 12, 2014, 01:43:40 pm »

I just tried the quality setting in Tidal, from HIFI 1440bps, tried High quality, still got stuttering, when I went to Normal, no stuttering, playback was smooth, but the sound was sucked out because of a lower bitrate.  The purpose of Tidal streaming is of course CD Quality 1440bps!

So where do we go from here?  Is it the WDM driver, or MC20 causing this!

I get the same thing. With Spotify (320kbps), no stuttering the first seconds and no audible skips during playback. With Wimp HIFI (which is the same as Tidal lossless), I do get these artifacts. I thought that was linked to the higher bandwidth needed, but I have no idea where the bottleneck is. I usually have 9ms ping time and at least a 50/50 Mbps fibre speed. Maybe the Tidal servers are over-loaded?
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JimH

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Re: Tidal Music Service via JRiver?
« Reply #29 on: November 12, 2014, 01:51:27 pm »

Maybe the Tidal servers are over-loaded?
That would be my guess.  You might try their forum to see what others are saying.
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Trumpetguy

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Re: Tidal Music Service via JRiver?
« Reply #30 on: November 17, 2014, 04:11:00 am »

I was using Spotify with 320kbps stream yesterday, and no stuttering during 2 hours listening and skipping a lot between tracks.
I'm starting to think the problem with Tidal/Wimp HIFI is linked to how these applications buffer before playback starts. I have noticed that buffering often, if not always, buffers for several seconds. Sometimes (e.g. at work, where Internet connections have a ping time of >350ms) buffering goes on for 20, maybe more seconds.

If this happens on every track, no wonder the 10s WDM buffer (is that the right term?) will not work. It was recently increased from 5 to 10s. Maybe a 1min or more buffer can solve the problem? Can some user configuration be made possible in a build so that we at least can try it?
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6233638

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Re: Tidal Music Service via JRiver?
« Reply #31 on: November 17, 2014, 08:58:39 am »

There are two issues really.
 
1. Tidal seems to break the connection to the device when changing tracks.
2. JRiver's WDM driver stutters when initializing.
 
 
The two combined means that you get stuttering every time the track changes, rather than only at the beginning of playback.
If #2 were fixed, #1 would no longer be an issue.
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JimH

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Re: Tidal Music Service via JRiver?
« Reply #32 on: November 19, 2014, 10:42:17 am »

I contacted Tidal Support, and supposedly they fixed any stuttering/dropouts over last weekend.  I did lose the stuttering in the first 5 seconds today, but couldn't remove the intermittent blips with any buffer settings.  So much for MC20 and WDM!
There is a thread on this problem (Tidal, not JRiver) over on computeraudiophile.
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1966 Triumph

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Re: Tidal Music Service via JRiver?
« Reply #33 on: January 29, 2015, 02:12:14 am »

Hi guys, I'm glad I found this thread as I am considering Tidal and want it to play through JRiver if possible as well. 

Anyways, I have JRiver MC 20.0.62 and when I go into my Windows 8.1 PC under >Control Panel >Sound I don't see anything that says "WDM".  I do see "JRiver Media Center 20" though and can set that as a default playback option.

I have 2 questions please:

1. Are "WDM" and "JRiver Media Center 20" one and the same or am I either looking in the wrong place or missing the "WDM" driver altogether?

2. I have a McIntosh D100 DAC that is connected to my PC via USB and under >Control Panel >Sounds I have the "McIntosh USB Audio" selected as the default playback device option ~ is that correct or should it be "JRiver Media Center 20" instead?

Thanks in advance for the feedback I just wanted to make sure I am getting the most out of it.
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Lespaul

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Re: Tidal Music Service via JRiver?
« Reply #34 on: January 29, 2015, 02:53:56 am »

Yes, "JRiver Media Center 20" is the WDM driver.

Here is how you should setup the outputs:

1. In Tidal, select "JRiver Media Center 20" as the output device.
2. In MC, set your McIntosh as the output device.

This way, all music in Tidal will play through MC and output to your DAC.
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1966 Triumph

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Re: Tidal Music Service via JRiver?
« Reply #35 on: January 30, 2015, 01:41:30 am »

Yes, "JRiver Media Center 20" is the WDM driver.

Here is how you should setup the outputs:

1. In Tidal, select "JRiver Media Center 20" as the output device.
2. In MC, set your McIntosh as the output device.

This way, all music in Tidal will play through MC and output to your DAC.


Ok, so Tidal is set to "JRiver Media Center 20" and in MC is set to the "McIntosh ASIO",

So my last question would be ...

What about in Windows >Control Panel>Sound ... it is currently set to the "McIntosh USB" as the default output device.  Do I leave it set like that or do I set "JRiver Media Center 20" as the default output device there as well?

Also, I just wanted to say thanks for the pointers above!
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Lespaul

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Re: Tidal Music Service via JRiver?
« Reply #36 on: January 30, 2015, 02:56:19 am »

If you set output in MC to "Default Audio Device", it will use whatever device you have selected in Windows.
In this case that device needs to be "JRiver Media Center 20" so all audio gets played through MC. If you do it like this you can leave Tidal output device to default.

In any case, if you specify an output other than "Default Audio Device" in MC, it will ignore any setting you have set in Windows.

You can have both MC and Windows set to McIntosh as long as you don`t have "Open device with exclusive access" checked in MC.
If you do, MC will prevent any other sources from accessing its output, so no sound except what you are playing in MC.

"Open device with exclusive access" can provide better quality as it will bypass the windows mixer.

(Edited response based on feedback from natehansen66)
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natehansen66

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Re: Tidal Music Service via JRiver?
« Reply #37 on: January 30, 2015, 05:13:24 am »

Lepaul - Triumph wants his Tidal audio routed thru JRiver (if I understand correctly), so suggesting he sets the audio device in MC to the default, and the Windows device to his Mac is wrong. The Windows device needs to be set as the JRiver audio device.........the same device chosen in Tidal. MC needs to be set for the actual DAC/output device.
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Lespaul

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Re: Tidal Music Service via JRiver?
« Reply #38 on: January 30, 2015, 06:30:02 am »

natehansen66, you are right of course, will edit answer:)
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natehansen66

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Re: Tidal Music Service via JRiver?
« Reply #39 on: January 31, 2015, 08:55:27 am »

lol I was thinking you just had that backwards. I was thinking maybe I just hadn't had enough coffee  ;)
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1966 Triumph

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Re: Tidal Music Service via JRiver?
« Reply #41 on: February 02, 2015, 02:18:51 am »

Lepaul - Triumph wants his Tidal audio routed thru JRiver (if I understand correctly), so suggesting he sets the audio device in MC to the default, and the Windows device to his Mac is wrong. The Windows device needs to be set as the JRiver audio device.........the same device chosen in Tidal. MC needs to be set for the actual DAC/output device.

natehansen66, you are right of course, will edit answer:)

Thank you both for your help, truly appreciated!
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Lespaul

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Re: Tidal Music Service via JRiver?
« Reply #42 on: February 02, 2015, 03:08:08 am »

Insightful article on Tidal:

http://www.digitalmusicnews.com/permalink/2015/01/30/15-reasons-never-ever-buy-streaming-service


Very good points there. I think they will struggle to stay afloat, but I really hope they manage to stick around. Competition is always a good thing.
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6233638

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Re: Tidal Music Service via JRiver?
« Reply #43 on: February 02, 2015, 03:10:56 am »

Yeah, it went really poorly for Beats when Apple bought them up for $3B. ::)
I'm sure that Jay Z is expecting that Google/Microsoft will be interested in a similar deal for Tidal in the near future.
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flyfish2002

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Re: Tidal Music Service via JRiver?
« Reply #44 on: February 04, 2015, 09:16:25 am »

Hi.

Long-time MC user.  I just installed MC 20 on a music-dedicated laptop in my home office:  Windows 7; 4GB RAM; 128 GB SSD for OS only.  All music is FLAC on a NAS. 

I am also a TIDAL subscriber, so I selected MC as the default sound device for the laptop and selected MC 20 in TIDAL.

I am getting quite a few pops/drop-outs/tics while playing TIDAL thru MC 20 both at start and during track playback.  When using MC 20 and the FLAC files on NAS, no issues.  When playing TIDAL to my DAC, no issues.  Only have issues when I run TIDAL thru MC 20. 

I have adjusted latency and pre-buffering to a variety of combinations to no avail.  As I write this, I am working from my home office and there is no one else at home to compete for bandwidth.  I have a large "pipe" into the house via AT&T U-Verse and a gigabit network.  For music, all cabling is CAT6a shielded - no wireless.   

Given this is a home office head phone set-up, the sound is much preferable using MC 20 due to the features and adjusts I can make.   

Any advice?

Brent
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Matt

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Re: Tidal Music Service via JRiver?
« Reply #45 on: February 04, 2015, 09:35:32 am »

Hi.

Long-time MC user.  I just installed MC 20 on a music-dedicated laptop in my home office:  Windows 7; 4GB RAM; 128 GB SSD for OS only.  All music is FLAC on a NAS. 

I am also a TIDAL subscriber, so I selected MC as the default sound device for the laptop and selected MC 20 in TIDAL.

I am getting quite a few pops/drop-outs/tics while playing TIDAL thru MC 20 both at start and during track playback.  When using MC 20 and the FLAC files on NAS, no issues.  When playing TIDAL to my DAC, no issues.  Only have issues when I run TIDAL thru MC 20. 

I have adjusted latency and pre-buffering to a variety of combinations to no avail.  As I write this, I am working from my home office and there is no one else at home to compete for bandwidth.  I have a large "pipe" into the house via AT&T U-Verse and a gigabit network.  For music, all cabling is CAT6a shielded - no wireless.   

Given this is a home office head phone set-up, the sound is much preferable using MC 20 due to the features and adjusts I can make.   

Any advice?

Brent


Set Options > Audio > Advanced > Live playback latency to 500 milliseconds.
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flyfish2002

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Re: Tidal Music Service via JRiver?
« Reply #46 on: February 04, 2015, 10:50:54 am »

Live Playback Latency is 500
Pre-buffering is 4
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flyfish2002

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Re: Tidal Music Service via JRiver?
« Reply #47 on: February 04, 2015, 11:24:45 am »

These settings seem to do the trick....I had the latency at 500, but the pre-buffering at 10.  Dropped pre-buffering to 2 and kept latency at 500 - no pops/drops/tics.

Thank you.

Brent
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Trumpetguy

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Re: Tidal Music Service via JRiver?
« Reply #48 on: February 04, 2015, 12:58:55 pm »

Just a notification to Tidal/Wimp users about a current, known Wimp PC app bug (which I would expect is also a Tidal bug):

If you set "JRiver Media Center 20" as playback device in Wimp (not Windows default audio device) AND "JRiver Media Center 20" is not your default Windows audio device, MC will not pick up the audio from certain tracks. This is not an MC issue. According to Wimp technical support, the PC app will look like it is playing but not make any sound when you have that particular audio device setting, specified HIFI quality playback and the track being played back is currently not available in HIFI quality (where wimp will the silently try and play a lossy version of that track).

The workaround from tech support is to set JRiver Media Center 20 as default audio device and specify the default device in the Wimp app. Which is not a good solution on computers that - for some reason - wants to reserve the default device for other purposes (e.g. USB headset on your office workstation).

Alternatively - simply skip that album until it is available in HIFI. The annoying part is that there is no way to know in advance whether a track is available as HIFI or not, you will have to try.

And this might not be an issue with Tidal at all....
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Acesn8s

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Re: Tidal Music Service via JRiver?
« Reply #49 on: February 18, 2015, 10:16:28 am »

These settings seem to do the trick....I had the latency at 500, but the pre-buffering at 10.  Dropped pre-buffering to 2 and kept latency at 500 - no pops/drops/tics.

Thank you.

Brent

No matter which latency and pre-buffer settings I use...including these...I continue to hear a brief stutter at the beginning of a tune and periodic scratches.
This only occurs using Tidal through JRiver 20.70; no problems playing Spotify, Pandora, etc through WMD and no problems playing Tidal bypassing JRiver and going directly to my Teac UD-501.
Resampling Tidal to 352kHz sounds more resolving than the TEAC's standard 192kHz, but the stutters and scratches make this unacceptable.

Any more solutions, then?

Thanks!





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