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Author Topic: Help re. auto DSP  (Read 6157 times)

ken-tajalli

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Help re. auto DSP
« on: February 22, 2015, 05:07:23 pm »

Is there a trick, a command or otherwise, to make JRiver, not to use the last DSP settings if the track has no DSP values saved in its tags?
I explain further, just in case:
Say I have a track with a saved DSP setting named "Dark side". I then play another track which has no DSP saved in the tags. Since I am playing it after Dark Side, JRiver continues to apply Dark side, on all tracks played after.
I think there should be a default DSP setting for JRiver to fall back to, if nothing is saved in the tags.
I know I could achieve this manually, but with 1000's of tracks, and some with saved DSP's, it is going to be a mammoth job.
I need an easier option.
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6233638

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Re: Help re. auto DSP
« Reply #1 on: February 22, 2015, 07:08:28 pm »

I agree. The DSP preset tags should be a temporary change to the DSP state, not a permanent one.
I have also been unable to use it, since you would have to tag every file in your library to use the current implementation.
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Arindelle

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Re: Help re. auto DSP
« Reply #2 on: February 23, 2015, 09:24:44 am »

can't you do this with zone switch rules like ifempty ... ?
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6233638

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Re: Help re. auto DSP
« Reply #3 on: February 23, 2015, 09:36:58 am »

Being able to tag a file with a DSP preset was supposed to replace that sort of workaround/hack, because it doesn't work at all when you are playing a mixture of tracks that should have DSP applied and tracks which should not. (or tracks which should have a different DSP applied)
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cassfras21

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Re: Help re. auto DSP
« Reply #4 on: February 24, 2015, 09:42:30 am »

I agree with the author, JRiver should have a default DSP preset by zone. But it's not enough. The "DSP per file" settings should merge the default DSP settings, and not replace them.

Currently the "DSP per file" settings conflict with playback zone settings.

My case:

I have 2 audio output in my Intel Nuc. I set one audio playback zone for each output.
One is the built-in HDMI port (32bit/48 kHz) connected to my TV and the second is an USB DAC (24 bits/96 kHz).
For efficiency reasons I am using the USB DAC by default. I set its dsp settings to match what the DAC is capable of (Output format sampling 44,1-96)
I did the same for the playback zone which is set with the HDMI (Output format sampling 44,1-48)

If I choose the DAC zone, I am able to play 96kHz file in BitPerfect. If I try to play the same file through the HDMI zone it will be downsampled to 48kHz. It's not BitPerfect but at least it'll play.

This is working fine if the file is not DSP tag.

Now save DSP preset to change EQ settings and try to play the same 24/96 file (with DSP tag) to the HDMI zone. Because my default playback zone is able to play 96kHz and because the file will replace the DSP zone with its own preset, it won't play. Audio output settings are not anymore matching the HDMI capabilities.

Here is how that behavior could be solved/enhanced:

-DSP tag is empty: on track switch, default DSP per zone loads
-DSP tag is not empty: on track switch, default DSP per zone and per file are merged. The resulting DSP loads.

In that case, I can still use DSP per file EQ and play audio files on every zones!
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Otello

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Re: Help re. auto DSP
« Reply #5 on: February 24, 2015, 10:06:19 am »

I agree with the OP, but I think the problem is the way the DSP setting is arranged.

I mean, instead of (manual) DSP setting per track, I'd really like an (automatic) DSP setting per file type/sample-rate.
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6233638

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Re: Help re. auto DSP
« Reply #6 on: February 24, 2015, 11:31:01 am »

-DSP tag is empty: on track switch, default DSP per zone loads
-DSP tag is not empty: on track switch, default DSP per zone and per file are merged. The DSP result loads.
In that case, I can still use DSP per file EQ and play audio files on every zones!
I don't think that there should be a specific "default preset for this zone" but simply that Media Center should resort to the previous "No DSP Tag" state when it switches from a tagged file to an untagged file.
And there needs to be some way of specifying what plug-ins are included in a preset.

For example:
Let's say that I want to tag an album with a "Rock EQ" preset.
With that preset, I only want it to save and apply the state of the "Equalizer" plug-in.
I don't want it saving the fact that I was in the "Upmix to 5.1" Zone when I created that preset, because that means it can only be used in Zones which support 5.1 playback and those tracks would give me an error if I tried to play them in my "Headphone" Zone for example.

And if I decide to add a new plug-in to the default state for that zone—say a plug-in that adds headphone crossfeed—I don't want to have to modify my "Rock EQ" preset (and every other preset) so that it doesn't disable the new crossfeed plug-in every time those tracks are played.

When saving a DSP preset it needs to prompt you with something similar to the "paste tags" dialog box which lets you select which of the current DSP states should be included.
In the example above, I would specify that the preset only includes the state of the Equalizer DSP, so that it does not affect the state of any other DSPs. (whether that would be enabling or disabling them when that track plays)
Where this gets complicated, is that there also needs to be an "All Other DSP" option so that presets can be applicable to future states of DSP Studio, rather than having to modify every single preset each time you add a new plug-in.

As another example, if I want to create a DSP Preset which specifically disables all DSP except Output Format and then I add a new plug-in further down the line, that preset does not have any information about the state of the new plug-in and it would stay enabled.
If there was an "All Other DSP" item when saving a DSP Preset, it would be possible to create a preset which automatically disables all other DSPs for which the state is not included.

In this example:
  • The status of Output Format would not be included in the preset. (so the preset can be used in any zone and the existing OF state is preserved)
  • The status of every currently existing plug-in would be saved. (as disabled)
  • The "All Other DSP" item would also be included to store a "disabled" state (so that any plug-ins added to MC after the creation of this preset are also disabled)

For other presets, I might specify that the "All Other DSP" state is not included, so that the current state for any new plug-in is preserved when that track plays, rather than specifically enabling or disabling it.
I realize that this is complicated, but it is the only solution I can see which actually covers most (if not all) use-cases for DSP presets in a system like Media Center's that supports external plug-ins.


The current system, where it saves the state of all currently installed plug-ins, and any changes made by a preset "stick", is effectively useless unless you only have the most basic of requirements (such as only playing in a single zone, and only adjusting the EQ preset) and if you don't mind tagging every single file in your library with a "blank" DSP preset. (which is absurd)

I agree with the OP, but I think the problem is the way the DSP setting is arranged.
I mean, instead of (manual) DSP setting per track, I'd really like an (automatic) DSP setting per file type/sample-rate.
I feel like that is actually a case which is better handled by Zones or tagging on import.
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Otello

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Re: Help re. auto DSP
« Reply #7 on: February 24, 2015, 11:39:39 am »

I feel like that is actually a case which is better handled by Zones or tagging on import.

Please...

Zone Switch is NOT a solution; it's only a dirty workaround that doesn't work with playlist.

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6233638

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Re: Help re. auto DSP
« Reply #8 on: February 24, 2015, 11:51:29 am »

Please...  Zone Switch is NOT a solution; it's only a dirty workaround that doesn't work with playlist.
OK, well tagging on import then, if you are wanting to blindly apply DSP to files based on their type and sample rate.
 
Perhaps further down the line once DSP Presets are in a good state there might be some way to have rule-based DSP preset switching (perhaps specific rules applied to a zone) but we need DSP Preset functionality that is useful first.
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Otello

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Re: Help re. auto DSP
« Reply #9 on: February 24, 2015, 12:19:53 pm »

So, are you saying you think I'm asking for automatic rule-based DSP setting just for the sake of asking something different?  :P


There is a very good reason to use rule-based settings, anf it is the DSD convertion, which sound better then the original PCM only at 44.1KHz.
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6233638

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Re: Help re. auto DSP
« Reply #10 on: February 24, 2015, 12:26:49 pm »

No, I'm saying that we need a more robust DSP preset system that covers most (all?) use-cases before thinking about some sort of rule-based way of applying them.
If you're just wanting to blindly apply presets based on the file format (which I agree has some uses) it will take 5 minutes to manually tag an entire library and add tag-on-import rules.
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Otello

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Re: Help re. auto DSP
« Reply #11 on: February 24, 2015, 12:46:41 pm »

5 minutes??? Not with my library, unfortunately, but I agree it is a 1 shot operation.

Anyway, I don't know the tag-on-import rules, which'd solve the real problem of new acquisitions.
Have you a link to the description of this function?
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6233638

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Re: Help re. auto DSP
« Reply #12 on: February 24, 2015, 01:02:54 pm »

5 minutes??? Not with my library, unfortunately, but I agree it is a 1 shot operation.
It should be, if all you are doing is applying presets based on format. Just create a new panes view which uses sample rate. (and file type/bit-depth if you want to be even more specific)
Then select all and apply the tag.

Anyway, I don't know the tag-on-import rules, which'd solve the real problem of new acquisitions.
Have you a link to the description of this function?
Creating a new tag-on-import rule is more complicated, as it requires some knowledge of the Expression Language
You would set it up in your auto-import rules in the "Apply these tags" section with something along the lines of:

Code: (Import Rule) [Select]
If(Compare([Sample Rate,0], >, 2822400), High-Rate-DSD-preset,
If(IsEqual([Sample Rate,0], 2822400), DSD64-preset,
If(IsRange([Sample Rate,0], 44101-192000), High-Res-preset,
If(IsEqual([Sample Rate,0], 44100, 2), CD-preset,
Other-preset))))
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cassfras21

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Re: Help re. auto DSP
« Reply #13 on: February 24, 2015, 01:24:05 pm »

I don't think that there should be a specific "default preset for this zone"

In fact it's currently the case. With no DSP preset profile, settings are zone specific.

Media Center should resort to the previous "No DSP Tag" state when it switches from a tagged file to an untagged file.

What about if your next no tagged file is played to another zone with different Output format settings than the previous no tag file playing zone?

Imo reloading the DSP on each track switch is mandatory.

The bad thing is that saved DSP presets reload every feature even "Output format".

We both agree we need a separate management for zone dependant DSP features (Output format) and tracks dependant DSP features (EQ).

I do not use at all any plugins so I can't say.
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6233638

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Re: Help re. auto DSP
« Reply #14 on: February 24, 2015, 01:41:57 pm »

In fact it's currently the case. With no DSP preset profile, settings are zone specific.
What I mean is that you should not have to create a preset and save it as "Default" for that to be what playback reverts to after playing a DSP-tagged file.
It should just revert to the original state of the zone (prior to playing any DSP-tagged files) without having to create or manage a "default preset" for it.

I'm sure that we want the same thing.
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cassfras21

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Re: Help re. auto DSP
« Reply #15 on: February 24, 2015, 01:59:30 pm »

I'm sure that we want the same thing.

I agree, we do.

Your "original state of the zone" is what I mean by default!
It's my way to say it doesn't have to be saved as a preset.

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ssands

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Re: Help re. auto DSP
« Reply #16 on: February 24, 2015, 02:03:23 pm »

I would also like this. I do a bit of EQ on my live shows, but don't want that EQ on studio cuts. I was hoping that when a track (or tracks) are tagged, the preset would turn off when those tagged tracks were finished.
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Otello

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Re: Help re. auto DSP
« Reply #17 on: February 25, 2015, 08:24:55 am »

No, I'm saying that we need a more robust DSP preset system that covers most (all?) use-cases before thinking about some sort of rule-based way of applying them.
If you're just wanting to blindly apply presets based on the file format (which I agree has some uses) it will take 5 minutes to manually tag an entire library and add tag-on-import rules.

Sorry to insist, but I really cannot see where is the problem in modifying the DSP dialogue in a more rational way.
For instance, you may remove the Output Encoding dialogue and integrate its options in the dialogue you open clicking on 1 of the sample rates.
Finished: everything authomatic, no more confusion with zone switch.
IMHO, even more user friendly.



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6233638

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Re: Help re. auto DSP
« Reply #18 on: February 25, 2015, 08:29:41 am »

I don't disagree, and it makes your intended use for DSP Presets clear, but I feel like that is a separate issue from the fundamentals of how DSP Presets are currently implemented.
That discussion is specific to how the Output Format DSP operates, and not DSP Presets in general.
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ken-tajalli

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Re: Help re. auto DSP
« Reply #19 on: March 01, 2015, 09:28:03 am »

Since JRiver is not willing to go for a default DSP settings (for whatever the reason) - this has been my work around.
I created a default DSP settings, and had to ( HAD TO!) tag every track on my list that does not need specific DSP with it.
Can JRiver at least do us one courtesy?
put a means of arranging/searching tracks per DSP tag. So when I need to make any changes, I don't have to manually search for those tracks.
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6233638

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Re: Help re. auto DSP
« Reply #20 on: March 01, 2015, 02:46:57 pm »

Since JRiver is not willing to go for a default DSP settings (for whatever the reason) - this has been my work around.
I created a default DSP settings, and had to ( HAD TO!) tag every track on my list that does not need specific DSP with it.
Can JRiver at least do us one courtesy?
put a means of arranging/searching tracks per DSP tag. So when I need to make any changes, I don't have to manually search for those tracks.
Due to the way that DSP Presets are saved, this wouldn't even work for me if I did go to the trouble of setting that up. It really needs a complete overhaul. :-\
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ken-tajalli

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Re: Help re. auto DSP
« Reply #21 on: March 01, 2015, 04:40:29 pm »

Due to the way that DSP Presets are saved, this wouldn't even work for me if I did go to the trouble of setting that up. It really needs a complete overhaul. :-\
It was the only compromise I could think of.
Since every track does have a DSP tag, the auto-DSP won't stick!
I agree, there must be one DSP for every zone, in addition to saved DSP's and when a track ends, and next track has no saved DSP in tags, it should unload the previous saved DSP - keeping only the Zone DSp (if one is set).
But JRiver does not like the idea.
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6233638

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Re: Help re. auto DSP
« Reply #22 on: March 01, 2015, 04:48:07 pm »

In addition to having it reset to the zone "defaults" after playing a track with a DSP Preset applied, we need more controls when creating DSP Presets to begin with. (specifically, being able to select what DSP settings are included when you create one)
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ken-tajalli

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Re: Help re. auto DSP
« Reply #23 on: March 01, 2015, 05:51:47 pm »

specifically, being able to select what DSP settings are included when you create one
+1
this alone, would take care of some of my problems.
I still would like a search filter, to search for tracks, with a specific DSP tag.
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6233638

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Re: Help re. auto DSP
« Reply #24 on: March 01, 2015, 09:30:19 pm »

Does dsp= not work?
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