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Author Topic: What I don't Like  (Read 25385 times)

JimH

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What I don't Like
« on: March 24, 2015, 07:03:18 pm »

Ken Tajalli said:

What I don't like about JRiver?
- If media is not imported previously, it becomes very slow to respond.
- The library's insistence to put media into CD style album format.
- No simple interface for audio folders/files playback using a simple point-and-shoot hand held infra-red remote
(for video only) I use Kodi, only because of interface, I can use it with my IR remote, it is menu driven with large text.
- No simple interface for use with infra red remotes to control DSP, a menu driven interface would be nice.
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glynor

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Re: What I don't Like
« Reply #1 on: March 24, 2015, 07:07:31 pm »

I wanted to ask him to split the "what don't I like" discussion off.  Thanks, Jim.

- The library's insistence to put media into CD style album format.
- No simple interface for audio folders/files playback using a simple point-and-shoot hand held infra-red remote
(for video only) I use Kodi, only because of interface, I can use it with my IR remote, it is menu driven with large text.

Ken Tajalli, please take a look at this post and follow and read the links I provided:
http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=96344.msg664406#msg664406

You can also make your own views for Theater View, in basically the same fashion.  Ask if you need more help, but get started with that stuff.
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ken-tajalli

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Re: What I don't Like
« Reply #2 on: March 24, 2015, 07:52:56 pm »

Thank you, I did take a quick look at your links.
What I do use, is a simple IR remote.
What I want is a simple interface, with no formatting for my music folders and files, looking like this picture. (simple icons)
why?
I like a drink when I listen to my music! My eyes won't see well, hands get loose etc. . .
so I need a simple interface, and a remote I could feel the buttons with my fingers-tips, to navigate through (left/right - up/down - OK).
Just like a CD player jukebox. Call it a drunk mode!
I already have next/previous, play/pause and volume control, but going from one folder (not album) to another requires more effort (concentration).
- No phone/tablet remote
- no mouse control
- no hi res. monitor to read small text.
Just point and shoot - for audio.
An interface to tweak DSP would be nice in similar format.
I do all my tagging, auto volume, auto DSP when I am sober!
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glynor

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Re: What I don't Like
« Reply #3 on: March 24, 2015, 09:32:22 pm »

Thank you, I did take a quick look at your links.
What I do use, is a simple IR remote.
What I want is a simple interface, with no formatting for my music folders and files, looking like this picture. (simple icons)

You can accomplish that, or something very close to it, in Theater View.

You will have a much better experience if you do not force yourself to browse by directory structure, and actually use MC as intended.  But, if you really want to browse by directory, you can.

To make a View that browses by Disk Location in Theater View:
0. Tools > Options > Theater View
1. Select the View in Items to Show to for "section" of Theater View you want it to appear.
2. Add a new Library Item, and position it (using the Nest/Unnest and Move Up/Down buttons as needed to get it at the right "tier" and location).
3. On the right-hand side under Details, give the View a name like "Disk Location".
4. Click Add to add a new category.
5. Select File Path from the Type radio buttons on the left of the Category dialog.
6. Leave Select Path blank.
7. Click OK.

Done.  From within Theater View, you can change the View Style under the More menu to a variety of different options, including a simple Thumbnails-in-a-Grid type View.

If you actually use the metadata MC contains, though, you can accomplish very nice browsing systems that work splendidly with a remote:
https://vimeo.com/80925331
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mattkhan

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Re: What I don't Like
« Reply #4 on: March 25, 2015, 04:34:39 am »

The fundamental thing I don't like is the barrier to entry to actually getting the best out of the product. It feels v much like a tool for the power user which is great if/when you're a power user but not so great when you're starting out. I think at least 2 things contribute to this.

One is subjective as the UX is pretty baffling at times.

The other is arguably less subjective and that's the patchwork nature of the "support" and/or documentation. The product is full of features but it's not always obvious whether a feature exists or not & if it does exist how it's meant to work and/or what to do if it doesn't work. An example of the former is the convolution feature set, no one is able or willing to say what features it actually supports so we only have what has been shown to work. An example of the latter is the remote control situation (http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=91680.0) which doesn't even have a simple mapping of MCE remote key to MC command let alone any indication of what to do if things don't work.

Personally I'd pay 10x the price for a product that had this feature set and just worked out of the box but perhaps I'm too lazy to be the target market :)
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csimon

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Re: What I don't Like
« Reply #5 on: March 25, 2015, 07:27:48 am »

The current client/server configuration (surprise!).

1. I'd expect to have a single server on the network that all clients connect to and see all zones, devices and other clients from the same place and be able to control them. At the moment, you have to have multiple servers on the network if you want to control multiple clients and the whole thing is a network topology nightmare and very confusing. You shouldn't need to disconnect and reconnent a client from the database, for example, just to send music to a different renderer, but that's the only way you can control different installations of MC from a remote app (unless you use DLNA rather than MC's network, but isn't that sidestepping the issue and avoiding use of MC's own remote protocol, in which case why is it there?...)

2. I'd expect changes made on the client to happen on the server instantly, i.e. not a two-stage process of the change happening locally first and then synched elsewhere by a vague background process that is not even guaranteed to be successful.  Data integrity of any database in a client/server environment is paramount and it's worrying that you can make changes on a client that don't happen instantly on other clients, you don't know when the change is going to happen, and can even be silently undone. Once committed on the client, the data should be instantly set in stone everywhere.

3. I'd expect library management to be a client interface that works the same regardless of of which client you do it from, but for a reason which I haven't heard any explanation for, entry of ripped CDs into the library is not possible from a client, and there are other limitations.

The basic issue is that it is touted as a client/server system when in fact it's a networked peer-to-peer system. In such a system, all instances are equal and can, and indeed must, behave as both receivers and senders (or consumers and suppliers - deliberately avoiding the use of the terms client and server there to save confusion), there is no central server. I expected something different when I heard the term client/server.

[EDIT: a more conventional client/server system would greatly simply and streamline the configuration and ease of use of a whole house media server and distribution system, many people are still struggling with cleints and servers setup and synch problems, and how to control one client from another etc, myself included,]
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daveg

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Re: What I don't Like
« Reply #6 on: March 25, 2015, 07:31:09 am »

When using mini window while watching videos, there are no controls. Would be nice if you could see play/pause controls when putting mouse on undocked window.
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Micromecca

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Re: What I don't Like
« Reply #7 on: March 25, 2015, 09:11:59 am »

Still no Lip Sync option in the Theatre View OSD - That's all  :)
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CountryBumkin

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Re: What I don't Like
« Reply #8 on: March 25, 2015, 10:19:05 am »

Not having an explanation for what all of the setup/options do.

I know some of the info is in the Wiki (but some is missing or just hard to find). I would like to see each setting have a "roll-over pop up tool tip" or a "click here link" to an explanation of what the setting does and/or how to use it. Or maybe just a downloadable "written" instruction manual (which would need to be updated from time-to-time)
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eezetee

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Re: What I don't Like
« Reply #9 on: March 25, 2015, 11:02:33 am »

Couple of things I've found during my 1 month of being a user

1) Unsure of requirements before or after initial install - Plug updates, .NET, java, flash etc.  No miniprogram to run to see if the system is good to go
2) Gizmo - No way to choose the image you want for a folder/directory etc.
3)  Found tonight:  SEcondary roller cannot have anything but a long list of videos inside it unless you make another category
4) Have to create Theatre View, Gizmo view and Tree views in 3 different spots (yes, aware about clone but that's a hack if you ever change a view)

Some of them are nitpicky because the software is just that good.  However, I'm not using a DAC or the audiophile stuff others are.

Sooo much more that I do like though.
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BryanC

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Re: What I don't Like
« Reply #10 on: March 25, 2015, 11:28:27 am »

1) Unsure of requirements before or after initial install - Plug updates, .NET, java, flash etc.  No miniprogram to run to see if the system is good to go

Everything that you need is installed by MC automatically.
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Otello

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Re: What I don't Like
« Reply #11 on: March 25, 2015, 11:49:15 am »

Well, on my side there's no doubts JR is the best and more complete player available; anyway, my biggest complains are:

- documentation absent or obsolete; sorry to say this, but wiki is simply a mess.
- in the last years I've seen most of developments pointed to TV series - I cannot care less ;) - I'd like more attention to audio only requests.
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paul.raulerson

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Re: What I don't Like
« Reply #12 on: March 25, 2015, 12:05:39 pm »

There isn't much I don't like about JRiver Media Center.

Occasionally, MC will get into a crashing mode after an update, where it will crash once or twice a day. When trying to upload logs, the forum won't accept them because they are too big, and often sending to the admin account results in a "mailbox full" refused message. This is frustrating, but an update or two later, the crashing will usually go away.

The user interface, at least on the Mac version, is pretty poor. Result? Access almost everything through JRemote on an iDevice.

Instead of upgrade about once per year, I would much prefer a yearly subscription, paid the same time every year, that entitles me to version upgrades. That way, there would be less pressure to push version upgrades out the door, and less need on my part to be sure I upgrade during the "discount" period.  As long as the software doesn't stop working if one were to cancel the subscription, this sure seems like an easier way to budget.


-Paul
 
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kstuart

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Re: What I don't Like
« Reply #13 on: March 25, 2015, 02:24:42 pm »

It's worth pointing out that the large multinational corporations are doing everything possible to make things as proprietary as possible - because that is where the $$$ are.

Applications like MC20 - and the freeware competition - are based on standard formats - MP3 and FLAC - that can be played by any software or hardware.

That takes the leverage away from giant corporations, and it seems clear that they are using the streaming paradigm to give themselves control.  I do not expect to see any third-party software in the future of music playback.

ken-tajalli

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Re: What I don't Like
« Reply #14 on: March 25, 2015, 03:45:37 pm »

Despite all my complaining, I am still here!
'cause, I have not found better, nor anybody else here, or they'll be gone.
This is all in the hope, to make JRiver even better in future builds.
I believe one way forward would be a wizard at installation, to ask installer if he/she is gonna use it for audio or video primarily. Easy interface or advanced interface.
It seems different people according to their needs want different parts of JRiver, and are scared of the full package.
Installation should be full, but initial interface be chosen by a wizard.
Possibly keep the wizard for future use.
I myself only use JRiver for audio and DSP - streaming video, TV recording, blah blah are not my thing. (Am I alone?)
I know, getting the interface right for all is an impossibility,
it is not a question of engineering, it is one of psychology.
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eapool

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Re: What I don't Like
« Reply #15 on: March 25, 2015, 04:29:05 pm »

I don't think Theatre view or jremote/gizmo are hard per se, there is just too much windows randomness around to make it bullet proof. Some of this is hardware, given it is a PC with pro audio kit, but it is impossible to predict that in advance. The whole experience is just quite glitchy really even before you get to the whole home side of things.

This sounds to me (and I am not trying to put words in your mouth) that your issue is with Windows and not with JRiver.  I know that most users don't really care if it is a Windows problem or a JRiver problem, they just want it to work.  Unfortunately, that may not be a realistic goal when you try to treat any Windows software as an appliance.

I too have a three year old that plays movies, tv shows, and music from JRiver.  Currently, he does most of it to his tablet with Gizmo.  I have customized a couple views for him to filter some things out, but nothing too extreme or cumbersome.  I am hoping to move him to JRemote once it is out of beta.  Most of the time things work fine, sometimes I do have to restart JRiver or reboot the server due to a JRiver crash, but 99% of the time the crash is due to a Windows or hardware problem and not JRiver.

Alex
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mattkhan

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Re: What I don't Like
« Reply #16 on: March 25, 2015, 04:40:52 pm »

It's certainly true that the only windows licence I've bought (i.e. used outside work) in 10 yrs was to run jriver & I find the lack of interoperability between jriver linux and windows annoying :) Nevertheless I do know how to use/run windows and it's deliberately a v vanilla windows install that runs nothing but jriver, nevertheless it's glitchy enough to be annoying for no single reason. It's just not even close to an appliance like experience (which I don't actually expect as it's not an appliance). I do look forward to the day when jriver linux has a solid video engine (hopefully not too long!)
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JimH

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Re: What I don't Like
« Reply #17 on: March 25, 2015, 05:21:05 pm »

I moved the Vocalpoint rant and the aftermath to its own thread.

If you have something you don't like, please be specific.  Comments like "the user interface is a mess" won't have any impact on quality.  It's pretty hard to guess what someone might mean by such a comment.
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Castius

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Re: What I don't Like
« Reply #18 on: March 25, 2015, 05:47:46 pm »

Zones are great. But most of the time i just want to switch the output.
jremote and gimzo handle this concept.
Zone switching has never work well enough for me and wdm audio driver has only made it more obvious an issue.

jremote/gimzo do not show up as zones.

Theater view can't be setup how i'd like in some places.

No multiple theater views
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ferday

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Re: What I don't Like
« Reply #19 on: March 25, 2015, 07:14:54 pm »

I don't like the forum organization...a few child forums wouldn't hurt

I'm happy to step into the noob forum to help where I can!  But (like most forums, I admit it) the same question posted over and over, the increasing difficulty to get an "advanced" question noticed or find an advanced answer with the search before a stream of wdm questions push it off the board...

Really other than selfishly wanting my personal wish list to come true it's the only thing that gets me about the MC experience.  I'm an admitted fanboy I guess

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alspoll

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Re: What I don't Like
« Reply #20 on: March 25, 2015, 07:53:35 pm »

The current client/server configuration (surprise!).

1. I'd expect to have a single server on the network that all clients connect to and see all zones, devices and other clients from the same place and be able to control them. At the moment, you have to have multiple servers on the network if you want to control multiple clients and the whole thing is a network topology nightmare and very confusing. You shouldn't need to disconnect and reconnent a client from the database, for example, just to send music to a different renderer, but that's the only way you can control different installations of MC from a remote app (unless you use DLNA rather than MC's network, but isn't that sidestepping the issue and avoiding use of MC's own remote protocol, in which case why is it there?...)

2. I'd expect changes made on the client to happen on the server instantly, i.e. not a two-stage process of the change happening locally first and then synched elsewhere by a vague background process that is not even guaranteed to be successful.  Data integrity of any database in a client/server environment is paramount and it's worrying that you can make changes on a client that don't happen instantly on other clients, you don't know when the change is going to happen, and can even be silently undone. Once committed on the client, the data should be instantly set in stone everywhere.

3. I'd expect library management to be a client interface that works the same regardless of of which client you do it from, but for a reason which I haven't heard any explanation for, entry of ripped CDs into the library is not possible from a client, and there are other limitations.

The basic issue is that it is touted as a client/server system when in fact it's a networked peer-to-peer system. In such a system, all instances are equal and can, and indeed must, behave as both receivers and senders (or consumers and suppliers - deliberately avoiding the use of the terms client and server there to save confusion), there is no central server. I expected something different when I heard the term client/server.

[EDIT: a more conventional client/server system would greatly simply and streamline the configuration and ease of use of a whole house media server and distribution system, many people are still struggling with cleints and servers setup and synch problems, and how to control one client from another etc, myself included,]

+1
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eezetee

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Re: What I don't Like
« Reply #21 on: March 25, 2015, 09:37:31 pm »

Everything that you need is installed by MC automatically.

Minprogram to check on codecs, drivers, .NET is still required.  There is no status information about where Youtube specifically is failing which requirement.
See thread here
http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=95478.0

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JimH

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Re: What I don't Like
« Reply #22 on: March 26, 2015, 07:04:12 am »

Minprogram to check on codecs, drivers, .NET is still required. 
You don't have to use anything to check what MC has installed.
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Otello

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Re: What I don't Like
« Reply #23 on: March 27, 2015, 11:30:07 am »

Quote from: Otello
Well, on my side there's no doubts JR is the best and more complete player available; anyway, my biggest complains are:

- documentation absent or obsolete; sorry to say this, but wiki is simply a mess.
- in the last years I've seen most of developments pointed to TV series - I cannot care less Wink - I'd like more attention to audio only requests.


If you have something you don't like, please be specific.  Comments like "the user interface is a mess" won't have any impact on quality.  It's pretty hard to guess what someone might mean by such a comment.

OK, I just checked and I'm the only one in this thread using the word "mess"; I don't think "wiki is a mess" needs further explanation, but I'd be more than happy being more specific about my second complain that, I admit, is quite vague.
(Actually, my complaints are all related to DSD; I don't want to go OT, but if you're interested I'll be happy to explain in another thread why nowadays DSD is so important.)

 
- What I really miss is an easy and working way for automatic switching of DSP setting per sample rate, independent from zones and working with playlists.
Please do not point me to DSP presets: I wrote working and easy, I need something I may propose to my readers without being accused to be a crazy technocrat. ;)
IMHO, the original problem is caused by using zones as a workaround for this problem. There are settings you DO want to be zone dependant, EQ for instance, but there are settings you don't.
Please don't get me wrong: zones are great, I love them, even if I have only one system in my house, (so, no need to actually change physical zone); for instance I use zones in my seminars at hi-fi fairs and events to switch from plain PCM and DSD encoding on the same track; zones are perfect for this use.
Fact is, when I'm back home, I'd like to have my system encoding in DSD the tracks at 44.1 KHz and leave alone all the other frequencies.
To cut it short, I need something like this:




- We are still missing sidecar files for .iso of SACDs.
On my side, I cannot believe this request got such a low priority...
It's so important to have tags stored with the files so you will not lose your tagging work moving the library to another PC; today with JR it is true for all the musical files but .iso of SACD.


- DLNA is great, but, again, it doesn't work with DSD encoding.
for instance, I bought a NUC 2820 on Amazon (waithing for the Id USB kit) and in the meantime I tried to use it with Windows.
As expected, I got glitches trying to encode in DSD locally: no way. But the Id is not meant for this job: it's a DLNA renderer; it's perfect for people wanting to stream from a server in another room to a small and silent PC in the hi-fi system...
But at the moment it is almost useless for people using a DSD DAC.


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kstuart

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Re: What I don't Like
« Reply #24 on: March 27, 2015, 01:07:03 pm »

(Actually, my complaints are all related to DSD; I don't want to go OT, but if you're interested I'll be happy to explain in another thread why nowadays DSD is so important.)
There is currently a small "viral" wave or fad for DSD amongst audiophile enthusiasts.

Some months ago, I did some careful comparisons between very high resolution PCM and DSD files of the same music.

In the process, I ended up comparing an original PCM high resolution recording with that same file converted to DSD and then converted back to PCM.   The PCM->DSD->PCM actually sounded "better".   Which can only mean that it adds a "euphonic" coloring that is liked by the brain.  And more listening pinned down the specifics.

After discovering this, I read a new post on an audio Forum by a friend who is a careful listener and who has a ridiculously expensive high quality setup.   This post said exactly the same thing - we had both done similar tests and come to the same conclusion - people "like" DSD because it adds a very subtle pleasant coloring.

Also, many many SACD releases are either sourced from PCM, or have PCM generations in the processing.  The number of pure DSD releases is tiny.

So, it is ultimately a fad - but will never have enough support to be a standard.  It's hard enough getting 24/192 releases that are easily generated from masters that are often 24/192...

Dr Tone

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Re: What I don't Like
« Reply #25 on: March 27, 2015, 01:49:49 pm »

1) My collection is so large I live and die by Album Artist.  My Artists list is just to unruly.  I don't like that I can't list additional albums (limited by track) that an Album Artist was just an additional guest artist on or the particular artist of a track on a compilation.

2) I don't like that Media Center doesn't allow pre processing plugins such as maybe a HDCD decoder or a persons third party resampling plugin of choice.

3) I don't like that the Mac version is still unstable and slow after 2 years of being sold as a product.  I still get random momentary audio drops outs at least once or twice during the work day.  They are completely unreproducible so there is nothing I can do to help debug them.
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Otello

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Re: What I don't Like
« Reply #26 on: March 27, 2015, 02:21:01 pm »

There is currently a small "viral" wave or fad for DSD amongst audiophile enthusiasts.

Some months ago, I did some careful comparisons between very high resolution PCM and DSD files of the same music.

In the process, I ended up comparing an original PCM high resolution recording with that same file converted to DSD and then converted back to PCM.   The PCM->DSD->PCM actually sounded "better".   Which can only mean that it adds a "euphonic" coloring that is liked by the brain.  And more listening pinned down the specifics.

After discovering this, I read a new post on an audio Forum by a friend who is a careful listener and who has a ridiculously expensive high quality setup.   This post said exactly the same thing - we had both done similar tests and come to the same conclusion - people "like" DSD because it adds a very subtle pleasant coloring.

Also, many many SACD releases are either sourced from PCM, or have PCM generations in the processing.  The number of pure DSD releases is tiny.

So, it is ultimately a fad - but will never have enough support to be a standard.  It's hard enough getting 24/192 releases that are easily generated from masters that are often 24/192...

Dear kstuart,
The problem with DSD is many people do not understand what we are talking about; for instance, you are talking about recordings.
(On my side, if you ask me what I do prefer, I'd reply that I prefer PCM recordings, no doubt.)
But I'm NOT talking about recordings, I'm talking about reproduction of existing recordings.
If you prefere: I agree with most of what you said, but I'm talking about a completely different matter.

Fact is, a 44.1 KHz file converted on-the-fly in DSD plays better than the original (with a DSD capable DAC, of course); this because the convertion has no losses, then you skip the traditional issues affecting antialias filters at 44.1 KHz. (I assume you know what I'm talking about). There's no pleasant colouring, on the contrary there are less spurious and phase rotations at high frequencies.
Unfortunately, it works only at 44.1 KHz, the other sample rates sound better without convertion. (There are good technical reasons for this; BTW, Foobar has a DSD driver converting 48, 96 and 192 KHz files at 48x64 and not at 44.1x64, but it works only with some DAC, but it is another story.)
Moreover, a DSD DAC is cheaper than a PCM one, so, at the end we have a double advantage: we can get a better sound from our existing CDs (believe me, I'd NEVER jump here saying something like: "Ah! There's a new fantastic recording method, etc.), and we can get it with a cheaper DAC.
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BartMan01

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Re: What I don't Like
« Reply #27 on: March 27, 2015, 03:21:56 pm »

Things I don't like, none of these are easy to fix and none are 'deal breakers' - I just use other tools where needed:

No support for encrypted cable card:  This 'issue' may solve itself sooner rather than later since the cable company hates them, the FCC has proposed a replacement, and even Ceton really doesn't seem to care about consumer devices anymore (though they continue to sell and support existing but mostly stagnant hardware).  I use (and hate) WMC for DVR + XBox extenders.

Status of 'whole home' distribution of A/V.  Not 'all there' yet.  I currently use Air Video HD for video to devices and we really don't use 'whole house' audio right now.

Theater View:  I use it, just don't like the current UI. Limited configuration options on how it looks/feels, and it is difficult to configure/maintain.

Lack of App ecosystem for video streaming - everyone seems to be moving towards apps on devices these days for streaming content.  I use Apple TV or XBox (depending on TV set) for these.

Edit to add:  Client/Server/App functionality while on the local LAN requires internet access to fully function.  Every other program/app I use like this can send wake-on-lan requests without having to route through the internet, they just require you to enter the MAC address of the machine you want to be able to wake.
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BartMan01

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Re: What I don't Like
« Reply #28 on: March 27, 2015, 03:58:28 pm »

The current client/server configuration (surprise!).

1. I'd expect to have a single server on the network that all clients connect to and see all zones, devices and other clients from the same place and be able to control them. At the moment, you have to have multiple servers on the network if you want to control multiple clients and the whole thing is a network topology nightmare and very confusing. You shouldn't need to disconnect and reconnent a client from the database, for example, just to send music to a different renderer, but that's the only way you can control different installations of MC from a remote app (unless you use DLNA rather than MC's network, but isn't that sidestepping the issue and avoiding use of MC's own remote protocol, in which case why is it there?...)

2. I'd expect changes made on the client to happen on the server instantly, i.e. not a two-stage process of the change happening locally first and then synched elsewhere by a vague background process that is not even guaranteed to be successful.  Data integrity of any database in a client/server environment is paramount and it's worrying that you can make changes on a client that don't happen instantly on other clients, you don't know when the change is going to happen, and can even be silently undone. Once committed on the client, the data should be instantly set in stone everywhere.

3. I'd expect library management to be a client interface that works the same regardless of of which client you do it from, but for a reason which I haven't heard any explanation for, entry of ripped CDs into the library is not possible from a client, and there are other limitations.

The basic issue is that it is touted as a client/server system when in fact it's a networked peer-to-peer system. In such a system, all instances are equal and can, and indeed must, behave as both receivers and senders (or consumers and suppliers - deliberately avoiding the use of the terms client and server there to save confusion), there is no central server. I expected something different when I heard the term client/server.

[EDIT: a more conventional client/server system would greatly simply and streamline the configuration and ease of use of a whole house media server and distribution system, many people are still struggling with cleints and servers setup and synch problems, and how to control one client from another etc, myself included,]

Agreed.  Trying to use MC distributed gets confusing to me at times, no way I am going to try to explain it to the family.

I also find that client to server changes (especially cross platform ones) frequently break things with no real notice until I stumble in to it later.  Specific example here would be maintaining playlist/smartlist configuration from my OSX client to my Windows server has on several occasions destroyed the smartlists (replacing rules with garbage entries that do nothing), left out there playlists/smartlists I have deleted, or resulted in duplicate entries.
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emovac1

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Re: What I don't Like
« Reply #29 on: March 27, 2015, 04:12:27 pm »

Well since you asked:  

I don't like the lack of documentation in the form of a users manual (a book would probably work with all the options the program has to offer).  Waiting to get a response on the support forums can be frustrating at times

(Note:  baseball Bob has been very helpful responded to my questions).

It would be nice if all the functions of the pull down menus, and terms were explained.  When you get an error message you have to guess what to do next.  Trying to set up my Id is not as easy as I thought it would be.

Really like the program - I have the master license, and have owned the last several Windows revisions -  if I only knew how to get it to work to its fullest potential.
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glynor

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Re: What I don't Like
« Reply #30 on: March 27, 2015, 09:18:20 pm »

Minprogram to check on codecs, drivers, .NET is still required.  There is no status information about where Youtube specifically is failing which requirement.
See thread here
http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=95478.0

You don't have to use anything to check what MC has installed.

Right.  The installer performs these checks, or they're done "on the fly" when the feature is first used (such as for Red October or the LAME plugin).

There is something wrong with your install(s), we just haven't figured out what yet.  Please respond in your original thread.  I made a suggestion, and haven't heard back yet.
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glynor

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Re: What I don't Like
« Reply #31 on: March 27, 2015, 09:20:16 pm »

Theater View: ... and it is difficult to configure/maintain.

+1

I, personally, love how Theater View looks and feels.  However, I completely agree that it is "fiddly" to get set up.  I still think creating and managing these from a "special" section of Standard View's Tree (perhaps under Drives & Devices) would be the best way to go.

Same thing goes for Media Network Views (and I'd like to "unify" those with Theater View, I think).
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glynor

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Re: What I don't Like
« Reply #32 on: March 27, 2015, 09:23:23 pm »

When trying to upload logs, the forum won't accept them because they are too big, and often sending to the admin account results in a "mailbox full" refused message.

Please read, as there are suggestions within:
http://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/Logging
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jmone

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Re: What I don't Like
« Reply #33 on: March 27, 2015, 11:59:31 pm »

I love how invested we get in this software and the community here on Interact.  Sometimes however we tend to go overboard and it can ruffle feathers and it does more harm than good. 

I've no idea why JR have not banned me over the years, but the following is what I have found (note: these are all my own examples and any resemblance to anyone elses is purely coincidental). 

Things that don't work:
- General usability comments like - "The OSD for video is terrible, it's too complex for my Wife to use"
- Getting aggravated or demanding - "You need to fix iPhone Sync now... and I don't care Apple blocked you"
- Deriding some feature - "Particles are Half Baked"
- (your) Grand Visions - "Adding Intercom functionality makes perfect sense, why have you not added it yet"
- Asking for a written manual - it does not exist and has been commented on that it will not (JR don't see it as cost effective given their ongoing release cycle method).
- Demanding - "Jim/Matt/Hendrick/et al you said you would fix these bugs, I've paid my $20 you know"

... also Sending Muffins, Wine, BDs, Chickens, Offering to buy Dev Time etc as an enticement to get them to code for your specific hot new feature results mostly in happy smiles from the JR Crew... but has failed in my perversion of the dev process.

Things that do work:
- For Bugs: reporting the specific details so they can be tested and fixed
- For Feature Requests: of all the great ideas you have pick those that what you think are small incremental improvements that would benefit users 
- Being Polite:  The JR team do a great job and really love MC and all they do.  Calling their "baby ugly" (as the saying goes) will be far less effective that polite engagement.

I'd also suggest:
Keep a list of you requests so you can bump them occasionally if you don't get a timely response.  If you never get a response it is probably just that it does not ring a chord with anyone or they just don't have an answer.  JR are not being rude, they just get a heap of this stuff and there is only a few of them.

Overall, I really like the commercial model for MC.  Pay the modest upgrade fee and over the next XX months you get a heap of updates.  Some Bug Fixes, some New Features.  Some may even be yours.  I also like to to ing and fro ing here on Interact.  All a much better model than the impersonal nature of dealing with the other commercial companies.  It's also OK if this product, dev and support model etc is not to your liking, just move on.

Still have no idea why I've not been banned.  ;D

Thanks
Nathan
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CountryBumkin

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Re: What I don't Like
« Reply #34 on: March 28, 2015, 11:55:09 am »

Still have no idea why I've not been banned.  ;D

Thanks
Nathan

Probably because
Quote
... also Sending Muffins, Wine, BDs, Chickens, Offering to buy Dev Time etc as an enticement to get them to code for your specific hot new feature results mostly in happy smiles from the JR Crew...
  ;D
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ferday

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Re: What I don't Like
« Reply #35 on: March 28, 2015, 02:53:11 pm »

Nathan - good post.  Thanks.
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kstuart

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Re: What I don't Like
« Reply #36 on: March 28, 2015, 05:17:49 pm »

Things that don't work:
- Asking for a written manual - it does not exist and has been commented on that it will not (JR don't see it as cost effective given their ongoing release cycle method).
That's self-contradictory.

If your support method is to ask people to post in the Forums, rather than having a written manual or online manual or up-to-date Wiki, then there is no one central defined place where someone can find information like:

" There is no written manual  or online manual or up-to-date Wiki, because we want you to post your question. "

This means that you cannot blame people for asking for anything (because you have no one central up-to-date place they can find information).

The rest of Nathan's post applies to all communications between human beings.  It is entirely correct, but not specific to JRiver.

BryanC

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Re: What I don't Like
« Reply #37 on: March 28, 2015, 05:44:34 pm »

That's self-contradictory.

If your support method is to ask people to post in the Forums, rather than having a written manual or online manual or up-to-date Wiki, then there is no one central defined place where someone can find information like:

" There is no written manual  or online manual or up-to-date Wiki, because we want you to post your question. "

This means that you cannot blame people for asking for anything (because you have no one central up-to-date place they can find information).

The rest of Nathan's post applies to all communications between human beings.  It is entirely correct, but not specific to JRiver.

http://www.jriver.com/support.html

Quote
Our Wiki is a more structured source of information and replaces the user manual.
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jmone

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Re: What I don't Like
« Reply #38 on: March 28, 2015, 05:45:57 pm »

Yup, there is no Manual, so when you need help the options;
- Wiki; Volunteers have spent a bunch of time updating the Wiki over the years (and recently)... and while it will never be complete or up to date it still holds the answer to alot of common Q
- Forum; Ask Q on Interact and the community + JR answer what they can.  

I hope that no one has been "blamed" for asking a Q.  The point of my post was to clarify what Q will get traction and how the approach can be all important.  
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emovac1

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Re: What I don't Like
« Reply #39 on: March 28, 2015, 06:15:18 pm »

Yup, there is no Manual, so when you need help the options;
- Wiki; Volunteers have spent a bunch of time updating the Wiki over the years (and recently)... and while it will never be complete or up to date it still holds the answer to alot of common Q
- Forum; Ask Q on Interact and the community + JR answer what they can.  

I hope that no one has been "blamed" for asking a Q.  The point of my post was to clarify what Q will get traction and how the approach can be all important.  


My request for a manual will never happen. I understand and accept that.   BUT

a request for a glossary of terms and program functions is very reasonable.  You could put it in one thread and amend and add/delete to the glossary as needed.  If I could go to one place and read and understand what to do by what functions are available, I could plod ahead without having to rely on hours of delays using the forums question and response method.

Some work would be required to build such a glossary, but I'll bet time saved in the long term would be quickly recouped. 

It's a well intended sensible request and would help many users, especially the less computer savvy ones (like myself).
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ferday

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Re: What I don't Like
« Reply #40 on: March 28, 2015, 06:20:46 pm »


a request for a glossary of terms and program functions is very reasonable.  You could put it in one thread and amend and add/delete to the glossary as needed.  If I could go to one place and read and understand what to do by what functions are available, I could plod ahead without having to rely on hours of delays using the forums question and response method.

It's a well intended sensible request and would help many users, especially the less computer savvy ones (like myself).

i don't disagree with this.  it kind of fits in with my repeated request for a bit more forum organization, so all this information is easier to find for both noob and intermediate users alike...
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Al ex

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Re:
« Reply #41 on: March 28, 2015, 06:22:48 pm »

.84 introduced new resolutions, which in general is good. But it screwed up many 3rd party skins, I had to revert to a standard skin. The layout/skin system is a weak point of JRiver.
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jmone

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Re: What I don't Like
« Reply #42 on: March 28, 2015, 06:27:15 pm »

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jmone

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Re:
« Reply #43 on: March 28, 2015, 06:30:38 pm »

.84 introduced new resolutions, which in general is good. But it screwed up many 3rd party skins, I had to revert to a standard skin. The layout/skin system is a weak point of JRiver.

Hi Alex, from what I've seen this part is stilling being worked on as we speak so.  If you have not done so already, I'd suggest putting the detail of the issue in the latest Build Thread.
Thanks
Nathan
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JimH

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Re: What I don't Like
« Reply #44 on: March 28, 2015, 07:49:57 pm »

My request for a manual will never happen. I understand and accept that.   BUT

a request for a glossary of terms and program functions is very reasonable.  You could put it in one thread and amend and add/delete to the glossary as needed.  If I could go to one place and read and understand what to do by what functions are available, I could plod ahead without having to rely on hours of delays using the forums question and response method.

Some work would be required to build such a glossary, but I'll bet time saved in the long term would be quickly recouped.  

It's a well intended sensible request and would help many users, especially the less computer savvy ones (like myself).
An Internet search can often help in this case.  If you don't understand something, try Google.  I do that a lot.

You and others who want to learn have an infinite thirst for knowledge, but we, the people you think may have the answers, have a finite base of knowledge.  And it gets tedious typing answers to questions (like how do I restore my old program) that are already in several places on the forum and web pages.  Try a Google search to see what I mean.
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dtc

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Re: What I don't Like
« Reply #45 on: March 28, 2015, 09:18:53 pm »

Re the Glossary - like this? http://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/Category:Frequently_Asked_Questions


There is certainly a wealth of knowledge here, but there are also some issues for new users.

For example, one of the common questions from new users is why are compilation/multiple artists sometimes split by the artists. Unfortunately, there is no listing here for that question. There is information under Album Artist, but the new user would not know to go there. The Album Artist discussion is also pretty dense for a user who does not really understand tags.

Knowing about album artist leads to having to know about tags. Once again, there is no entry for tagging other than a link to an advanced discussion on tagging classic music. There is a article on Library Fields, but again you need to know that this means tagging. Also, that article is pretty dense for a new, non-technical user.

Client/server is another common question. Here it is listed under Tremote and Media Server, two very non-standard terms that MC uses in relation to client/server. If you do get to Media Server, you get a warning that the information in the Wiki is out of date.

Clearly the FAQs are incomplete, especially for  non-technical new users.

I understand that documentation is a very difficult task and it will never be perfect and totally up to date. However, it does seem that the current state of the Wiki makes it difficult for new users to find answers to some of the more common, simple questions. There is a Getting Started entry in the Wiki, but I am not sure how visible it is to new users. Perhaps that could be a standard sticky on the top of the newest version forum. For maybe add a new forum for Common Questions for New Users  with a bunch of articles on common problems,  with things like compilation albums, how to separate two versions of the same album, an introduction to tagging in layman's term, creating new views and the like. That section could grow over time and might prevent a lot of "how do I do xxx" for common new user issue. The learning curve for new users is very high and I think many of the comments here are addressing how to made that experience easier.
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6233638

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Re: What I don't Like
« Reply #46 on: March 29, 2015, 12:37:27 am »

You and others who want to learn have an infinite thirst for knowledge, but we, the people you think may have the answers, have a finite base of knowledge.  And it gets tedious typing answers to questions (like how do I restore my old program) that are already in several places on the forum and web pages.  Try a Google search to see what I mean.
Isn't that the point of writing a manual, or keeping a Wiki up-to-date?
 
Rather than writing repeated posts on the forums, it seems like that effort might be better directed towards better documentation that you can simply refer these people to.
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emovac1

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Re: What I don't Like
« Reply #47 on: March 29, 2015, 01:10:36 am »

Re the Glossary - like this? http://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/Category:Frequently_Asked_Questions


Helpful, but not complete enough. A thorough glossary or Guide would describe all functions and terms. 
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emovac1

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Re: What I don't Like
« Reply #48 on: March 29, 2015, 01:31:50 am »

An Internet search can often help in this case.  If you don't understand something, try Google.  I do that a lot.

You and others who want to learn have an infinite thirst for knowledge, but we, the people you think may have the answers, have a finite base of knowledge.  And it gets tedious typing answers to questions (like how do I restore my old program) that are already in several places on the forum and web pages.  Try a Google search to see what I mean.

You make a great program.  I only want to know how to use it.  I truly don't want to ask questions if I don't need to.  My time is valuable, just like I know yours is.  Google is helpful for general information, but the experts on this program are "JRiver."

There are a lot of friendly & helpful contributors on the your forums which I am thankful for, however, the MC program would be so much easier to navigate with additional user friendly support and documentation.  Many of your end users have suggested better documentation, but it's not a democracy, it's your program, so I Won't expect a manual anytime soon.  I do believe if you had a thorough manual or glossary, the need to type tedious answers would be significantly reduced....

time to enjoy some music now.....enjoy the rest of your weekend.   Bob
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jmone

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Re: What I don't Like
« Reply #49 on: March 29, 2015, 01:45:09 am »

JR have said many time they don't plan to write a manual.  No arguments are going to convince them.

The Wiki however does get some edits from the JR team but it is mainly maintained by a few of us on a Voluntary Basis and it tends to be on the bits we know (Glynor has been doing the most lately) and happens in fits and starts when the mood takes us.  We do it for free.  If you are keen to contribute then reach out to Jim to see if he will give you an account, or give one of us some content and we will add it for you (like 6233638 did with his madVR guide).  But I warn you, it takes a bit of time and and you will get little thanks from users for the effort... more comments like emovac1's that it's "not complete enough" and it will then be soon be out of date, so after referring users there you then get "it's out of date"!

For all I know, if someone offered to maintain it for a fee he may even go for that but I suspect you would find what JR are willing to pay would not cover the effort required.  Then again, if anyone is keen - reach out to Jim, he's the Boss.

JR like using Interact as the main support area as believe it or not, many users have pushed MC in ways they have not envisaged.  These users tend to be experts on a particular part and for the most part, you do get very good answers to your specific questions.  This is what JR prefers.   

Now my dinner guests have arrived so I've got my music streaming to the whole house and I've some wine to drink!  ;D
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