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Author Topic: Continued Support for Windows XP?  (Read 27228 times)

Hendrik

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Continued Support for Windows XP?
« on: July 01, 2015, 08:57:32 am »

I brought up this discussion internally, but we can only do so much without knowing what you guys think about the topic at hand.

In short, we're trying to evaluate Windows XP support for future MC versions.

There has been a bit of movement in the FFmpeg/Libav camp and it looks like XP support may be dropped on that side eventually, which would mean I would also drop support in LAV and the FFmpeg libraries MC uses for video transcoding.
Additionally, there are a few new features we're thinking about, which would take serious effort to make compatible with Windows XP, mostly because the libraries enabling these features simply do not support XP anymore.

We see two options here:
1) No Video support in future MC versions on Windows XP (among a few small other things)
2) No future MC at all on Windows XP

Personally, I would favor (2), as that is more honest towards the users, while (1) will of course allow running audio-only MC still on XP machines, with a limited feature set, however, which we may need to document somewhere.

So what are the thoughts? Is someone still overly attached to Windows XP, and if so, why? The OS is essentially dead afterall, with no updates anymore, security related or otherwise.

PS:
For the sake of clarity, dropping XP support will also drop support for Server 2003, since that is basically the same OS.
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mwillems

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Re: Continued Support for Windows XP?
« Reply #1 on: July 01, 2015, 09:47:03 am »

Windows XP has 12-14% market share globally, and that's about half what it was a year ago.  I would wager that the majority of those are enterprise clients who have been slow to upgrade (significant portions of the government and private sector are still paying for support on XP).  You can probably realistically expect that to drop significantly more over the next year after the launch of Win 10 and as various enterprise clients get tired of paying for extended XP support.  

That said, given that OS X's market share is about 4.5%, and Linux only 1.5%, XP still probably has enough of a consumer base to make it "worth JRiver's while" to provide limited support for another year until it dips into windows 2000/ME territory (fractions of a percent each), but that's a business calculation/decision for JRiver.  

I think anyone running XP at this point should be prepared for things to stop working.  I don't run it and haven't for several years, so I don't have any skin in the game, but your option 1) seems like a good compromise in the near term, with a transition to option 2) in a year or two.  As an aside, I would bet even money (based entirely on anecdotal evidence from lurking around home audio/theater forums) that far more "audio only" and/or audiophile-type customers are continuing to use XP than are video/TV customers, so option 1) may even be perfectly satisfying to that crowd.
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~OHM~

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Re: Continued Support for Windows XP?
« Reply #2 on: July 01, 2015, 09:52:26 am »

+ 2
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glynor

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Re: Continued Support for Windows XP?
« Reply #3 on: July 01, 2015, 10:38:31 am »

What mwillems said.
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muzicman0

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Re: Continued Support for Windows XP?
« Reply #4 on: July 01, 2015, 10:57:38 am »

I would go for option 2.  I work for a software company that is global, and I pushed for us to drop XP support.  It just makes it too hard to move forward with new technologies.  There will always have to be the discussion that 'well, if we do that, will it work on XP'...for the small percentage of users that are using XP with MC, I just don't think it is worth it.  If it will only support audio, it would be easy enough for someone to move to Linux on the same hardware they currently have if they don't want to upgrade their OS due to hardware limitations, or even budget.

While it was mentioned that the user base for XP is higher than that for OSX, I would suggest that the difference is that users of OSX are more likely to use a media center app than those that are still using XP.

just my two cents worth.
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fitbrit

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Re: Continued Support for Windows XP?
« Reply #5 on: July 01, 2015, 11:06:57 am »

What glynor said.
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6233638

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Re: Continued Support for Windows XP?
« Reply #6 on: July 01, 2015, 01:36:51 pm »

With 4K and 8K video on the way, this basically needs to happen.
I've been testing 4K/8K playback recently, and I can only get smooth playback in 64-bit players.
With 32-bit players only having access to 3GB RAM, I can't buffer enough frames in advance to prevent it from stuttering, and decoding performance seems like it's faster in 64-bit too.
So I'm really hoping that MC21 makes the switch to 64-bit, prior to UHD Blu-rays launching later this year.
 
And I can think of a few good reasons for the audio engine to move to 64-bit as well.
 
I don't see much reason to continue supporting XP these days, especially with Windows 10 launching at the end of this month.
Perhaps MC20 could be updated so that MC21+ licenses will still activate it, or MC20 licenses are still available for purchase if anyone does wish to purchase a new copy of MC to run on XP?
That way you still have a "legacy" version that people can buy if they really need to stick with XP for some reason.
 
Though not exactly the same, we still have a couple of MacBooks in use today which are 32-bit CoreDuo/Core2Duo machines, and those only support up to OS 10.6
It is very frustrating when I'm trying to get software for them and the developer only offers their latest version which requires 10.7+ despite older versions of the program running just fine on 10.6
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Hendrik

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Re: Continued Support for Windows XP?
« Reply #7 on: July 01, 2015, 01:38:14 pm »

64-bit and XP are not necessarily related.
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6233638

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Re: Continued Support for Windows XP?
« Reply #8 on: July 01, 2015, 01:44:56 pm »

64-bit and XP are not necessarily related.
Well I still think that keeping around a legacy version of MC20 for XP (either continuing to sell MC20 licenses, or letting newer MC21/Master Licenses activate it) rather than hampering the development of MC21 is the way to go.
 
You say that the new audio features you're looking to develop won't work on XP anyway, so why hold it back?
MC20 is already a very mature and capable product on XP as it is.
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Awesome Donkey

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Re: Continued Support for Windows XP?
« Reply #9 on: July 01, 2015, 01:53:07 pm »

I'd favor option 2 also. The OS is 13 years old, I think that's enough time.
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ferday

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Re: Continued Support for Windows XP?
« Reply #10 on: July 01, 2015, 01:58:14 pm »

I do use XP on a couple computers because I have work related software that is XP specific and these are niche programs that do not get updated.  I do run MC on them but honestly I could care less if it stopped working.

So +1 mwillems and option 2
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Awesome Donkey

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Re: Continued Support for Windows XP?
« Reply #11 on: July 01, 2015, 02:02:50 pm »

I do use XP on a couple computers because I have work related software that is XP specific and these are niche programs that do not get updated.  I do run MC on them but honestly I could care less if it stopped working.

For XP specific stuff, I just run it in a virtual machine (or XP mode if using Windows 7). This is what I actually do right now in VMWare Player on Windows 10.
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newsposter

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Re: Continued Support for Windows XP?
« Reply #12 on: July 01, 2015, 07:41:42 pm »

If you wanted to put a stake in the ground, is would not be unreasonable to tell the world that XP support in MC will freeze at the final incremental release of v20.
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jmone

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Re: Continued Support for Windows XP?
« Reply #13 on: July 01, 2015, 07:57:16 pm »

Option 2 - MC20 is the last version to "Officially" support XP.  Later versions of MC may run XP but it an unsupported platform and some features may not work.

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RoderickGI

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Re: Continued Support for Windows XP?
« Reply #14 on: July 01, 2015, 09:45:43 pm »

Option 2 also.

I do still have a twelve year old Dell laptop that runs XP, but it is sssllooowww, so if I want to run XP programs, they are run in a VM on Windows 7. Video on an XP PC couldn't work that well, since it would probably be an old machine like mine. Hence, any users are probably just running audio on it.

Option 1 still gives you much of the work, and has other downsides. If users still want to use the hardware XP runs on, they could use the UNIX version, and probably get a better result. Maybe offer then a UNIX licence on a case by case basis, on request.
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mschneid

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Re: Continued Support for Windows XP?
« Reply #15 on: July 01, 2015, 10:40:34 pm »

Let me speak up for XP...  
There  is an inexhaustible supply of old Pc's in the world /family with XP loaded  that make perfectly adequate music players and will handle most of the video that casual users would ask of it.   They are not worth the time to upgrade to win 10 and likely won't have hardware support in win 10.   They add functionality to any flatscreen in the house by accessing your MC server.   Or I just run the music from my tablet.

I  think of them as free substitutes for the Nuc based PCs that JRiver is selling.  

The issue is that all versions of MC must match on the network...

I think the solution would be to tweak the MC server software so that a MC18 to 20 client  machine could access what ever current MC server is on the home network.  Add in something similar to the master license  for the latest and greatest  version hooked up to your main system running MC21 etc .... and everyone is happy.

When I try to play a video file that is too much for an old PC..... I shrug and move on.  I get it that it is an old box and its purpose is to play music or youtubes in odd places.

It's better then putting it into the landfill!

This way... there is no downside in my staying up to date with the latest MC release.

FYI,   loading netframe beyond version  2.0 will interfere with playing higher res video files.


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Hendrik

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Re: Continued Support for Windows XP?
« Reply #16 on: July 02, 2015, 01:05:42 am »

You can run Windows 7 on practically any hardware which can run Windows XP, sometimes even more efficiently, FWIW - Windows 10 may be another beast entirely.
Unfortunately, we cannot guarantee infinite forward compatibility with media servers, as that would severely cripple our ability to enhance the functionality.
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flac.rules

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Re: Continued Support for Windows XP?
« Reply #17 on: July 02, 2015, 03:21:43 am »

I say go for option 2, for a pure music player MC 20 has enough features, just let that be the final XP-supporting version.
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6233638

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Re: Continued Support for Windows XP?
« Reply #18 on: July 02, 2015, 04:32:51 am »

You can run Windows 7 on practically any hardware which can run Windows XP, sometimes even more efficiently, FWIW - Windows 10 may be another beast entirely.
Unfortunately, we cannot guarantee infinite forward compatibility with media servers, as that would severely cripple our ability to enhance the functionality.
The official system requirements for Windows 10 are the same as Windows 7, though I don't know how it will run on older systems.
I think it should run faster on supported hardware, because they've focused a lot on getting Windows 8/10 running well on the low-end hardware that's going into tablet devices. (and potentially phones)
 
But those requirements are considerably higher than XP:
  • 1 GHz CPU rather than 233 MHz
  • 1 GB RAM (32-bit) rather than 64 MB
  • 16 GB HDD Space rather than 1.5 GB

So I don't know that Windows 7-10 will be replacing XP on older systems. (and that won't be a free upgrade)
Then again, if those systems have at least a 1GHz CPU, it should be very inexpensive to upgrade them to 2-4 GB RAM these days.
 
Having Media Server compatibility would be the only issue with keeping MC20 around I suppose, as I could see people running the latest version of MC on their server, but keep around old XP clients.
Are there specific reasons why it wouldn't work, or is it just immediately blacklisted due to the version numbers being different?
Is it possible to design a more forward-thinking Media Server for MC21 to perhaps make that the last version for XP?
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apgood

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Re:
« Reply #19 on: July 02, 2015, 04:34:37 am »

Option 2.  Make MC20 last that supports XP
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Hendrik

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Re: Continued Support for Windows XP?
« Reply #20 on: July 02, 2015, 05:28:20 am »

Are there specific reasons why it wouldn't work, or is it just immediately blacklisted due to the version numbers being different?

Its not tied to the MC version directly. The database carries a version number, and media server and client have to be built for the same version.
However, its not a given that this database version is going to be increased. I don't think it actually was increased in MC20, so MC20 should still work with MC19, AFAIK.

We only increase it when breaking changes are introduced, a new datatype for fields, or some other changes which cannot be handled dynamically. The last time I remember it being changed was for the release of MC19.
I do not know if there are plans that may require increasing the version number for MC21. I'm not aware of any myself, but I do not know every single plan on every developers plate. :)
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rudyrednose

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Re: Continued Support for Windows XP?
« Reply #21 on: July 02, 2015, 06:38:16 am »

Option 2.  
As Hendrik mentioned that there is no probable change to the database version in the foreseeable future, a XP machine could still run v20 and talk to a (v21?) MC server.

By the time such a change is needed to the database, XP will have dipped below the radar and it will be a non-issue for almost all users.
Maintaining compatibility with XP has its costs on a (small) development team...
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mwillems

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Re: Continued Support for Windows XP?
« Reply #22 on: July 02, 2015, 07:33:52 am »

You can run Windows 7 on practically any hardware which can run Windows XP, sometimes even more efficiently, FWIW - Windows 10 may be another beast entirely.
Unfortunately, we cannot guarantee infinite forward compatibility with media servers, as that would severely cripple our ability to enhance the functionality.

So I don't know that Windows 7-10 will be replacing XP on older systems. (and that won't be a free upgrade)
Then again, if those systems have at least a 1GHz CPU, it should be very inexpensive to upgrade them to 2-4 GB RAM these days.

Additionally, any computer that could run XP could easily run one of the more user-friendly linux distros in most cases even with the "heavy" desktop environments.  Linux may not be everyone's cup of tea as a daily desktop (I don't typically recommend it to non-technical users for daily use), but for light around the house use like mschneid was describing, as a music streaming box/ ID replacer, or as a "screen smartener," Linux works great on old machines and the price is right (free). 

I recently repurposed a 2007 Core 2 Duo macbook that was struggling with OSX as a linux box and it runs faster on a modern linux distro with one of the "nice" 3d-accelerated desktop environments than it ever ran on OSX (even when it was new). 

So it's not like the options for old secondary boxes are "XP support, buy a new windows license, or landfill."  You can also sit through Linux Mint's graphical installer and wind up with a surprisingly snappy windows-like desktop for free on which newer versions of MC will run.   Linux isn't for everyone (especially for normal PC use), but for this kind of thing (reclaiming old boxes for special uses) it really shines.
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rec head

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Re: Continued Support for Windows XP?
« Reply #23 on: July 02, 2015, 07:39:03 am »

Well you guys beat me to it. I was going to say have one last XP build and make it available for the next few years.

Regarding the server changes: Couldn't users of XP map the server's drives locally and have their own library? Sure that would loose some features but you could keep on running those XP machines if you're stubborn.
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glynor

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Re: Continued Support for Windows XP?
« Reply #24 on: July 02, 2015, 10:05:38 am »

For the record: MC19 does still work fine with MC20's servers.  I did it this morning.

Also, I said +1 to mwillems, but I really meant the general idea. I disagree somewhat on his market share analysis, but the central point holds. If supporting XP in audio-only mode is basically very-low or zero pain, do that. Otherwise, I'd say kick it to the curb.

By the way, if anyone reading this is using XP still on a machine connected to the Internet, you're asking for trouble. So, you shouldn't be updating to new versions of software anyway, at least not via the Interwebs.
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rudyrednose

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Re: Continued Support for Windows XP?
« Reply #25 on: July 02, 2015, 10:15:50 am »

For those that insist on keeping XP running AND Internet connected :
http://betanews.com/2014/05/26/how-to-continue-getting-free-security-updates-for-windows-xp-until-2019/

Lots of ATM bank machines are XP based : "The workaround makes use of updates for Windows Embedded Industry (formerly known as Windows Embedded POSReady)".

Personally, I have no use for this as Ì am Win8.1/Server2012R2/Linux based...

Edit : Obviously, such a workaround is not 100% legit, as your purchase of XP has never bought such an extended support !
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mwillems

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Re: Continued Support for Windows XP?
« Reply #26 on: July 02, 2015, 11:31:04 am »

Also, I said +1 to mwillems, but I really meant the general idea. I disagree somewhat on his market share analysis, but the central point holds. If supporting XP in audio-only mode is basically very-low or zero pain, do that. Otherwise, I'd say kick it to the curb.

Yeah any metric for market share will be imperfect.  I was looking at a few different sources based on browser and search engine stats, which are a relatively good proxy for consumer use because they're (typically) not just machines running in a rack somewhere, they're (mostly) machines used by people.  But I'll concede the numbers are at best approximate, although a few major sources of web analytics and Gartner seem to agree within a few percentage points.  The most pessimistic XP estimate I've seen is 6.48% from statcounter, and that's still larger than the most optimistic OSX estimates I've seen.

Even conceding some static in the data, based on the available data the current installed base of machines browsing the web and running searches on Win XP is very likely to be larger than the same installed base for OSX and linux combined, and may be as much as twice as large.  Whether those machines are mostly "work" machines unlikely to be running MC or not is a question I lack data to speculate about, but I thought these were useful data points for the discussion.

Like I said above, people running XP should expect things to break, and if support vanished tomorrow, I wouldn't shed a tear.  There just may still be a significant number of XP users out there in the market.  I can't readily calculate the juice/squeeze coefficient  ;D
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glynor

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Re: Continued Support for Windows XP?
« Reply #27 on: July 02, 2015, 12:01:13 pm »

I didn't mean whether the market numbers were correct (I think those browser based stats are fundamentally flawed, but that's another story), I meant whether they're relevant at all.

All computer users are not equal. Apple may have an overall low percentage of total computers, but they have nearly 100% of expensive computers (at least in the US, and growing quickly elsewhere). They're also the only vendor still growing share, and not declining y/y.

Is a customer who is willing to spend $2k on a laptop the same as someone who buys the cheapest possible $150 laptop from Best Buy?  Are both equally likely to spend $50 on a premium media management application? What about someone who still runs XP on a 7 year old machine?

But, that's all a sideshow. Like I said, the overall concept, I agree. Worth keeping around in audio-only format? Sure, if it isn't too hard and doesn't cause other issues. Worth spending a bunch of effort on and/or holding back progress for modern OSes? Heck no.

Also, for the record, I'd recommend dropping 10.6.8 with MC21 as well.
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kstuart

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Re: Continued Support for Windows XP?
« Reply #28 on: July 02, 2015, 12:15:41 pm »

No mention here of the $$ aspect.

I don't upgrade my XP and Vista machines to Windows 7 simply because the upgrades would cost significant money.

I have XP and Vista machines, because - other than 1080p playback - there has not been any compelling new features that require any of the faster hardware.

So, instead of buying new $399 laptops that will break in months and are poorly designed, instead I use $3000 laptops that have reached the end of 3 or 4 year accounting depreciation cycles, all the while sitting unused in the office of someone who primarlly uses their phone.  

When they wear out, I replace them with the latest 4 year old laptops.

Some of the old ones still work and perform tasks.   I have a Thinkpad T41 that is new looking - but its audio playback chip died, so I now use it as a DVR running MC20 and a Hauppauge USB TV tuner.
It records to a 3TB drive on my router which can then be accessed by the Home Theater PC.  It runs Windows XP.

So TV recording is another use besides audio and video.  If I had to stay on MC20, I would miss any fix or feature that Yaobing implemented.

Asking a bunch of techies who have Windows 10 on all their machines, whether or not to drop support for Windows XP, is like going to the Wednesday night Chess Club and asking:

" So is there anyone here who cannot make it on Wednesday nights ? "

6233638

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Re: Continued Support for Windows XP?
« Reply #29 on: July 02, 2015, 12:33:04 pm »

Keep in mind that XP is 14 years old next month, not 3 or 4, and extended support ended more than a year ago.
I am all for keeping older machines in service, but at some point things become obsolete.
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kstuart

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Re: Continued Support for Windows XP?
« Reply #30 on: July 02, 2015, 01:55:21 pm »

Keep in mind that XP is 14 years old next month, not 3 or 4, and extended support ended more than a year ago.
I am all for keeping older machines in service, but at some point things become obsolete.

7 years:

Quote
Windows XP Service Pack 3 (SP3) was released to manufacturing on April 21, 2008.

The point was that it is only obsolete to techies.

A good 14 year old laptop - Thinkpad T22 - can do everything that an end consumer wants to do - browse the web, send 140 character text messages, listen to music, etc. - with the sole exception of HD video.

In fact, a top-of-the-line smartphone from 5 years ago has the same specs as the T22.

Web sites are continually simplifying in order to be more smartphone friendly, not becoming more complex.

Hendrik

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Re: Continued Support for Windows XP?
« Reply #31 on: July 02, 2015, 02:07:14 pm »

An update to the OS doesn't update its age, really. The tech its based on is still 14 years old, which is the reason we're even thinking about removing support.

We and other developers don't just do it out of spite (although some might), but for actual technical reasons. Using some modern features of newer Windows versions becomes a serious problem when you have to consider XP support at every corner, while the number of people using XP is very small as it is, and shrinking every day. The feature difference between XP and Vista is huge.

Its just a matter of resources. If we had infinite resources, we could support XP infinitely. But at some point we just have to ask ourselves .. how much effort do we put into supporting this in the future? What if software libraries we use stop supporting XP, like FFmpeg/Libav for the video functionality, do we spent hours and hours on trying to restore XP functionality, or do we accept XP's fate and move on to actual new features? Or even worse, we want to support new fancy features, but making it so that it works on XP (or at least doesn't break anything) would be a huge undertaking?

If we don't do it for MC21, chances are much higher that we do it for MC22. The thing is that it might cost a lot of time to keep it supported, especially when thinking about a few new features, so I'm not sure what will happen yet.
Should we drag it out another year? We don't know yet, which is why we're asking peoples opinions here to make an informed decision. Personally, I would rather not, as it may impede additions of new features, which would be a shame.
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DarkPenguin

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Re: Continued Support for Windows XP?
« Reply #32 on: July 02, 2015, 02:37:26 pm »

Put a bullet in its brain.  You sell a linux version, right?  Ubuntu + MC for linux should cover the old hardware.
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astromo

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Re: Continued Support for Windows XP?
« Reply #33 on: July 02, 2015, 03:52:20 pm »

Time to move on.

Give XP the axe.

Go all the way with option 2.
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csimon

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Re: Continued Support for Windows XP?
« Reply #34 on: July 02, 2015, 04:01:41 pm »

XP is well old now, more than a couple of years, I don't think anyone would blame you for dropping support. I would suggest not working hard to make new fetures compatible, in other words as soon as you want to introduce something that is not global across all versions of Windows then that would be the time to say we no longer support XP as of MC v2x Build yy, no point in dropping it if there is no actual reason for it and there are no immediate plans to introduce a new feature that won't work on it. But you might want to make a clean break as it were so that everyone knows what the cut off point is going to be and cut it off at the beginning of a new MC release cycle. I have an XP machine which is still quite a capable machine and I have an installation of MC on it purely for dev and testing purposes, but I wouldn't shed a tear if I could no longer run MC on it. Due to a quirk of Shuttle's BIOS the Windows 7 and 8 installation programs won't run, well known problem with the Shuttle XPCs of mid 2000s, they are fully capable of running 7 but the installation media hangs due to something weird in the BIOS. What really hurt though was JRemote's dropping of iOS5.1 after only 2 years for no apparent reason other than a new flat look for the icons...
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Hendrik

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Re: Continued Support for Windows XP?
« Reply #35 on: July 02, 2015, 04:26:16 pm »

We wouldn't want to cut support in the middle of versions life-cycle, so we have to plan a bit ahead, or get stuck mid-way and have to either postpone changes or spent a lot of time working around the problems.
So here we are thinking ahead for MC21.

The issue with some of the problems we're facing is that it might disable the entire video functionality on XP, and working around this may be quite an undertaking, which spawned this inquiry in the first place. Not an arbitrary idea, but planning ahead.
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kstuart

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Re: Continued Support for Windows XP?
« Reply #36 on: July 02, 2015, 05:30:04 pm »

We wouldn't want to cut support in the middle of versions life-cycle, so we have to plan a bit ahead, or get stuck mid-way and have to either postpone changes or spent a lot of time working around the problems.
So here we are thinking ahead for MC21.

The issue with some of the problems we're facing is that it might disable the entire video functionality on XP, and working around this may be quite an undertaking, which spawned this inquiry in the first place. Not an arbitrary idea, but planning ahead.
Just talking about my own particular situation:

As I mentioned, the one big technological improvement over the past 14 years has been video playback (and video screen hardware).

So, I myself am not using MC20 for video playback on any XP machine, and the one thing that I do regularly improve is graphic cards and video screens (and the Home Theater PC hardware as a whole).

I think it is safe to say that the sort of person who uses MediaCenter on old computers running XP, is likely doing Audio Only (cf "MediaJukebox") or perhaps TV recording.

So, if you say " we are going to stop supporting video functionality on Windows XP in MC21 " (your option 1), that would be fair, as it is unlikely to impact very many people.

And, BTW, I consider it very silly that you are asking people who have stopped using XP to give feedback on whether to support XP.

glynor

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Re: Continued Support for Windows XP?
« Reply #37 on: July 02, 2015, 05:31:41 pm »

That's, by no means, the main technical benefit to Vista and newer.  But, I think we get your vote.
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JimH

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Re: Continued Support for Windows XP?
« Reply #38 on: July 02, 2015, 05:44:21 pm »

And, BTW, I consider it very silly that you are asking people who have stopped using XP to give feedback on whether to support XP.
We were trying to ask everyone.
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kstuart

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Re: Continued Support for Windows XP?
« Reply #39 on: July 02, 2015, 07:12:30 pm »

We were trying to ask everyone.
And in shocking news, Tesla owners think that petrol engines should no longer be supported:

http://teslaclubsweden.se/test-drive-of-a-petrol-car/

RoderickGI

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Re: Continued Support for Windows XP?
« Reply #40 on: July 02, 2015, 09:16:53 pm »

If you don't already collect the data, I'm sure you could determine which systems are using XP every time they use an Access Key, and hence the numbers and proportions.

Of course that would not identify all XP users, only those that are using an Access Key. Plus of course, privacy laws would probably prevent you from contacting those users to get their opinion . . .
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What specific version of MC you are running:MC27.0.27 @ Oct 27, 2020 and updating regularly Jim!                        MC Release Notes: https://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/Release_Notes
What OS(s) and Version you are running:     Windows 10 Pro 64bit Version 2004 (OS Build 19041.572).
The JRMark score of the PC with an issue:    JRMark (version 26.0.52 64 bit): 3419
Important relevant info about your environment:     
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Hendrik

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Re: Continued Support for Windows XP?
« Reply #41 on: July 03, 2015, 01:11:18 am »

And in shocking news, Tesla owners think that petrol engines should no longer be supported:

http://teslaclubsweden.se/test-drive-of-a-petrol-car/


This is the public MC forum, not the Windows 10 users club, so I really don't get where you are going with these comments.
No matter which Windows version you are using, you can visit this forum. :p
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jmone

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Re: Continued Support for Windows XP?
« Reply #42 on: July 03, 2015, 02:53:06 am »

I'm sticking by my suggestion of:

"As of MC21, Windows XP is no longer officially supported and there may be features of MC that will not work on this version of Windows."

I'd not code MC21 to prevent it from running on XP... I'd just not test, fix, or respond to issues with with MC running MC on XP from MC21 onwards.  If it happens to continue working great.  If it fails so be it.
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JRiver CEO Elect

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Re: Continued Support for Windows XP?
« Reply #43 on: July 03, 2015, 03:09:17 am »

I don't think that's very fair towards new customers.
Sure, people that are updating from MC20 that follow the forums and have read this will be aware that it may be compromised on XP, but new customers probably won't. Just look at how many people bought into MC on the Mac without knowing that it (previously) lacked any kind of video playback, theater view etc. They just assumed it had parity with the Windows version.
 
Better to just say that MC20 is the last version which supports XP, and keep it available for anyone that wants it. (and that includes supporting files such as the versions of LAV Filters, madVR etc. that it will download)
 
Ideally buying a new license for MC21+ would still be able to activate MC20 for anyone that wants to buy a copy to run on XP.
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astromo

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Re: Continued Support for Windows XP?
« Reply #44 on: July 03, 2015, 05:19:24 am »

I don't think that's very fair towards new customers.
Sure, people that are updating from MC20 that follow the forums and have read this will be aware that it may be compromised on XP, but new customers probably won't. Just look at how many people bought into MC on the Mac without knowing that it (previously) lacked any kind of video playback, theater view etc. They just assumed it had parity with the Windows version.
 
Better to just say that MC20 is the last version which supports XP, and keep it available for anyone that wants it. (and that includes supporting files such as the versions of LAV Filters, madVR etc. that it will download)
 
Ideally buying a new license for MC21+ would still be able to activate MC20 for anyone that wants to buy a copy to run on XP.

The first point is quickly answered with it's up to the buyer to inform themselves and JRiver offers a 30 day trial. If a new Mac for MC user couldn't work out video shortcomings in 30 days ... (Well, politeness stops me from filling that one in).

Regarding axing XP, agree with dropping it off the "on purpose" compatibility maintenance list from MC21. I think the crew at JRiver have enough to deal with. If the plan is to ensure audio compatibility - fine. However, I would expect that most new users wouldn't be stuck in the OS past.

How about keeping MC20 on offer for a version or two at a reduced price for the luddites?
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JimH

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Re: Continued Support for Windows XP?
« Reply #45 on: July 03, 2015, 05:19:48 am »

I don't think that's very fair towards new customers.  Sure, people that are updating from MC20 that follow the forums and have read this will be aware that it may be compromised on XP ...
We offer a 30 day trial of the full version.  That seems fair to me.

Let's try to keep this on topic.  Is full XP support important or not?  I think it's clear from the comments above that it's of only very minor interest at this time, and it's going away steadily.
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JimH

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Re: Continued Support for Windows XP?
« Reply #46 on: July 03, 2015, 05:23:51 am »

I'm sticking by my suggestion of:

"As of MC21, Windows XP is no longer officially supported and there may be features of MC that will not work on this version of Windows."

I'd not code MC21 to prevent it from running on XP... I'd just not test, fix, or respond to issues with with MC running MC on XP from MC21 onwards.  If it happens to continue working great.  If it fails so be it.
I agree.
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rec head

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Re: Continued Support for Windows XP?
« Reply #47 on: July 03, 2015, 08:15:56 am »

Another thought is how many people will be buying MC for the first time to use on XP? Probably not many.

I would like better performance and and new features out of any future version of MC that I purchase. Keep MC20 available and keep moving forward.
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Fangio

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Re: Continued Support for Windows XP?
« Reply #48 on: July 04, 2015, 12:08:11 pm »

Option 2. Bring on the new features.
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Listener

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Re: Continued Support for Windows XP?
« Reply #49 on: July 04, 2015, 01:34:15 pm »

We offer a 30 day trial of the full version.  That seems fair to me.

Let's try to keep this on topic.  Is full XP support important or not?  I think it's clear from the comments above that it's of only very minor interest at this time, and it's going away steadily.


Jim,  I think you should try to get a handle on how many XP users you have now.  Most of the comments here have been from techie types who buried XP long ago. Since they aren't XP users now, they aren't the people whose opinions really matter.

Kstuart and mschneid are offering some ideas that fit the remaining users of XP.  Here's some thoughts that I think might be in an XP users mind:

- old PC, not worth spending money on.
- It runs and I don't want to disturb anything.
- I own it, it's free and I'd like to get some use out of it.
- As long as this old PC does what I need, I don't want to spend money on a replacement.
- Got NO money to spend on computers.

I doubt that installing Linux is a reasonable step for most XP users.  I doubt that spending money on a Windows upgrade is attractive either.

Find a way to get info from your XP users.  I think they would be happy to keep using MC with the current feature set as long as they keep the XP PC going.  These people aren't expecting wonderful new features; they just want to keep using MC as it is now.

For the record, we've been off XP for a couple of years in our home.
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