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[blgentry]

Recently I've helped 2 or maybe 3 people with audio problems.  Clicks, pops, and other audio anomalies.  These 2 or 3 people are out of maybe 5 or 6 that have complained of various audio issues.  In each of the cases I could help, the problem was the same:  The default setting for Hardware Buffering is now "Maximum (recommended)". 

With my DAC (Schiit Modi 2) this causes subtle bad quality and very very brief dropouts that are so short you almost think you are imagining them.  On other systems it makes clicks, pops, etc.  In my case, and these other 2 or 3 I'm describing, setting Hardware Buffering to "Hardware Default", has solved the sound problems.

I'm not sure how many people are in each camp: Those with Maximum working properly, versus those with "Hardware default" working properly.  I know that over the past few months I haven't ever advised anyone to change that setting, until "Maximum" became the default.  With my small sample size, I think that means the new setting is causing more problems than the old setting.

I think it is probably a good idea to change the default back to "Hardware Default".  Just putting this out there for consideration.

Thanks,

Brian. 

[glynor]

+1

I've noticed the same pattern. I think it was changed to Maximum by default trying to solve your stuttering issue (which didn't work), but I'm not really sure why.

[blgentry]

Oh so now it's my fault huh!?!?!?

<Joking> 

Brian.

[xtraktz]

It is not work for me. Only last versions downgrade.

[blgentry]

xtraktz:  You've posted before about Integer Mode not working since a specific build (.112) .  Is this what you're reporting here?  Integer mode doesn't work on your DAC any more?  Does it work correctly with Integer Mode turned off?

Brian.

[AndyU]

bigentry, thanks for your suggestions but alas Hardware Default didn't fix it for me in the slightest. Still get a dozen or so dropouts when firing off about the same number of apps on a base level recent mac mini. Nor am I using integer mode. Or even an external DAC - just the headphone socket. That's with the latest MC and the latest OS X. Other media players aren't similarly afflicted so strikes me that the lads here have some work to do, (which might include recommending a combination of settings that I haven't found yet).

[blgentry]

Andy,

I just read back through the other thread a bit and saw what you've done.  I *think* you've tried the combination that worked for me, but I'm not sure.  My magic combo is:

1.  Software Buffering:  500 mS
2.  Hardware Buffering:  Hardware Default
3.  App Nap disabled with:

defaults write com.jriver.MediaCenter20 NSAppSleepDisabled -bool YES

I don't typically open a lot of apps at once.  Usually one at a time.  I also pretty much never log out.  I keep the Mac running, logged in, almost all the time.  In this configuration I don't see dropouts when starting new programs.  I *have* been getting roughly 1 dropout per 10 hours of listening time.  No perfect, but much much better than before.

I'm sorry I don't have a better answer for you.  I can only report what's worked for me.

Good luck to you.

Brian.

[zombie-wmd]

With my DAC (Schiit Modi 2) ....

Greetings again -

Slightly off topic.  I was thinking of using a Schiit DAC feeding a Shiit headphone amp (with a Raspbery Pi running Volumio (Volumio because I'm having trouble running MC on the Pi) on the bottom and a pair of Beyerdynamic cans on top) to listen to music, but your comment has broadened my horizons.

You use the Schiit to take output from some Apple machine running MC and what, feed a receiver or preamp?  What do you do - use HDMI for the video signal, turn off the HDMI sound and feed the Modi's RCA output into the receiver?  If true, can you get 5.1 or 7.1 sound this way?  How does that work for you?   Did you find a need for what Schiit calls its USB decrapifier.   I thought Apple had its own DAC chip.  Is the Schiit that much better in this regard?  I guess there must be some upside as DragonFly is trying to make its bones the same way.  I always heard that receivers will downgrade any input from an outboard processor.  Having said that, I do run a HiFiBerry output to my Onkyo and the sound does seem 'rounder' somehow.  Could this just be imagination?

Don't feel obligated to respond, whatever your mood dictates.

Regards

[jimdukey]

Hi , Where are these settings found?

[blgentry]

Hi , Where are these settings found?

The buffering settings are in:

Tools > Options > Audio > Device Settings > Buffering

The AppNapp setting is a command line that you type (or preferably cut and paste) into the Terminal application.  Terminal is powerful and wonderful.  It's also dangerous if you don't know what you're doing, so use caution. 

Good luck,

Brian.

[blgentry]

You use the Schiit to take output from some Apple machine running MC and what, feed a receiver or preamp?

The setup I'm describing is a 2 channel headphone setup.  Macbook Pro > Schiit Modi 2 > Schiit Magni 2 > Headphones
No video or receiver involved.

I thought Apple had its own DAC chip.  Is the Schiit that much better in this regard?  I guess there must be some upside as DragonFly is trying to make its bones the same way.

The Mac has a DAC in it's sound card/subsystem that feeds the headphone/line output.  It's not bad.  Pretty decent really.  The Modi 2 is a rather large step up in my opinion.  It's hard to describe properly because it's not a difference like "Oh wow it as more bass!".  But the difference, using good headphones, is easy to hear.  Everything is better, particularly the clarity and purity of the highs.

I always heard that receivers will downgrade any input from an outboard processor.

This gets into the exact specifics of the setup.  If you're talking 5.1 or 7.1 it gets more complex.  For just 2 channel, if you want to use an outboard DAC and be sure you're getting "it's quality", you'd want to make sure that the RCA input you use on the receiver doesn't have any digital processing applied at all.  You'd want to make sure there was a pure analog path from that input to the outputs.  Otherwise, it would just digitize the input, process it, and output it again, which probably would obviate any gains made by having a nice external DAC in the first place.

This topic probably belongs somewhere else, but it's fun, so I'm responding.  If you want to continue, we should start a different thread about it. 

Brian.

[AndyU]

Andy,

I just read back through the other thread a bit and saw what you've done.  I *think* you've tried the combination that worked for me, but I'm not sure.  My magic combo is:

1.  Software Buffering:  500 mS
2.  Hardware Buffering:  Hardware Default
3.  App Nap disabled with:

defaults write com.jriver.MediaCenter20 NSAppSleepDisabled -bool YES

I don't typically open a lot of apps at once.  Usually one at a time.  I also pretty much never log out.  I keep the Mac running, logged in, almost all the time.  In this configuration I don't see dropouts when starting new programs.  I *have* been getting roughly 1 dropout per 10 hours of listening time.  No perfect, but much much better than before.

I'm sorry I don't have a better answer for you.  I can only report what's worked for me.

Good luck to you.

Brian.

Thanks Brian, tried that, six or so dropouts - some big clicks, others smaller ticks - rather than twelve. Better, but not really good enough. J River have said on another thread that they might have an answer this week, so let's see what transpires.

[zombie-wmd]

The setup I'm describing is a 2 channel headphone setup.  Macbook Pro > Schiit Modi 2 > Schiit Magni 2 > Headphones
No video or receiver involved.

This topic probably belongs somewhere else, but it's fun, so I'm responding.  If you want to continue, we should start a different thread about it. 

Brian.

Thanks for responding.  Replace Macbook Pro with Raspberry Pi and you have the system I'm contemplating.  Glad it works.  Sorrow over breaking protocol is being experienced, but participation in forums is unusual.

Have fun

[glynor]

J River have said on another thread that they might have an answer this week, so let's see what transpires.

I don't know for sure what Jim was referring to, though I suspect he was talking about MC21. I don't know if that is likely to improve things.

Can you take a screenshot of your Tools > Options > Audio settings as described by Brian and post them?  I'd also like to see the DSP settings.

Also, you applied the App Nap fix he suggested?

[AndyU]

I don't know for sure what Jim was referring to, though I suspect he was talking about MC21. I don't know if that is likely to improve things. It is a bit more delayed than they expected due to unrelated troubles. They'll post it when it is ready.

Can you take a screenshot of your Tools > Options > Audio settings as described by Brian and post them?  I'd also like to see the DSP settings.

Also, you applied the App Nap fix he suggested?

Here's three screenshots.

Edited to add: was in a hurry this am forgot to take a screenshot of DSP settings. I am not using any DSP. Will post screenshot when I get home.
Edited to add: ok, added the screenshot of my non-existent DSP settings.

Can you help?

[glynor]

I'll take a closer look at this later. I can say, that it is almost never a good idea to run without the Output Format DSP turned on.

If you don't understand why, read this:
http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=96442.msg665246#msg665246

I don't think that could be relevant to your issue, however, unless you're playing very oddball formats.

[AndyU]

I'll take a closer look at this later. I can say, that it is almost never a good idea to run without the Output Format DSP turned on.

If you don't understand why, read this:
http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=96442.msg665246#msg665246

I don't think that could be relevant to your issue, however, unless you're playing very oddball formats.

The clicks and drop outs I get happen with 16 bit/44.1 kHz FLAC files.  I do not want any DSP. If you believe there is some DSP setting that will eliminate the dropouts I experience when playing back such files and launching other apps please tell me what it is.

[glynor]

Read the thread I posted above. The Output Format DSP, if you configure it correctly, only impacts files that would otherwise fail to play, and otherwise passes everything through unaltered.

It probably wouldn't help with this, but it still doesn't hurt anything, and can help if you play oddball file formats.

[AndyU]

Read the thread I posted above. The Output Format DSP, if you configure it correctly, only impacts files that would otherwise fail to play, and otherwise passes everything through unaltered.

It probably wouldn't help with this, but it still doesn't hurt anything, and can help if you play oddball file formats.

What DSP setting do you suggest glynor? I'm only playing 16 bit/44.1kHz FLAC. I want bit perfect playback so anything that altered that wouldn't really be acceptable. It is not the case that my problem is about files that fail to play. Mine play but with dropouts when I start or close other apps. Others on  this thread have the same experience. I've read the thread you posted above. It was very long and and didn't seem relevant to my problem. Lots of it was about Windows and HDMI, neither of which I am using, and no DSP setting were proposed for 44.1kHz material. Perhaps I am not clever enough to understand. If you want to help me, please will you make a concise suggestion as to the DSP settings that you believe I should use to ensure glitch free playback of 16/44.1 flac.

[blgentry]

Andy,

Glynor was really making a side point.  It wasn't really related to your audio problem at all.  What he's suggesting won't fix the issue you are having.  Sorry. 

He was just trying to say that if you try to play a sample rate that your DAC doesn't natively understand, that playback will fail.  Depending on your DAC, it might play everything.  If, for example, it didn't know how to play 172.4 kHz files, you could tell the output format DSP to resample that to something else, like 192kHz, or some other rate that your DAC *does* understand.  That's all.

Sorry to hear you're still having problems.

Brian.

[AndyU]

Andy,

Glynor was really making a side point.  It wasn't really related to your audio problem at all.  What he's suggesting won't fix the issue you are having.  Sorry.  

He was just trying to say that if you try to play a sample rate that your DAC doesn't natively understand, that playback will fail.  Depending on your DAC, it might play everything.  If, for example, it didn't know how to play 172.4 kHz files, you could tell the output format DSP to resample that to something else, like 192kHz, or some other rate that your DAC *does* understand.  That's all.

Sorry to hear you're still having problems.

Brian.

I beg your pardon. He said, in a direct reply to my post:

it is almost never a good idea to run without the output format DSP turned on.

and if I didn't understand, to read a (long post).

I read a long post.

I still didn't understand why that was relevant, since I am not attempting to play tracks my DAC can't play. My DAC can play them fine. MC running on a mac mini can't.

Now you tell me glynor's post "wasn't related" to my problem.

glynor has already asked me to provide screen shots of all the settings I made, as though he thinks I am either stupid or lying. He hasn't apologised for that insinuation, and now when I post the screen shots he doesn't bother to check them out, says he'll read them later, and then tells me to read a long thread which you now say is irrelevant.

I'm beginning to feel I am just getting the run around here. No one seems to be working the problem in a focused way.

Out of interest, what happens when you use my firing off a dozen or so apps procedure? How many drop outs do you get?

I am fed with this, for sure.  If you guys want me to go away I will.

[glynor]

Now you tell me glynor's post "wasn't related" to my problem.

What I said is true. But, as I also said, it probably isn't relevant to the stuttering playback issue:

I don't think that could be relevant to your issue, however, unless you're playing very oddball formats.

But not having Output Format configured correctly is a problem.

Now, I don't know what formats you're playing.  So it is possible if you're playing weird formats that the stuttering and drop outs could be solved by configuring Output Format.  Very unlikely, but possible.

But, yes. I was making a side point.

I see nothing obviously wrong in your settings that looks askew (aside from that, which probably isn't relevant to this).

[glynor]

glynor has already asked me to provide screen shots of all the settings I made, as though he thinks I am either stupid or lying. He hasn't apologised for that insinuation, and now when I post the screen shots he doesn't bother to check them out

Wow. I don't think you are stupid or lying, but it isn't my job to keep track of everything you ever said across hundreds of posts. Often it is easier to look at everything at once to make sure you didn't miss anything, or I didn't think to ask for something specific.  I regularly ask people for screenshots of the settings, because it is much easier to see them with my own eyes.

So, sorry if you felt insulted. That was absolutely not my intention.

However, I do think you are being a jerk now.  I was trying to help, on my own free time, out of the kindness of my heart. If you don't want any help, or demand unpaid 24-hour turnaround, when I was working 16 hours yesterday at my real job, then stuff it.

I was going to try to borrow a similar Mac Mini and see if I could reproduce the issue, but nevermind. I'm done.

[blgentry]

Andy,

I'm just a user of MC that's trying to help.  I don't represent JRiver in any way, nor am I paid.  My last post was intended to try to clarify things.  I'm sorry it hit you the wrong way.  Read on below....

Out of interest, what happens when you use my firing off a dozen or so apps procedure? How many drop outs do you get?

I'm currently running MC21.0.6.  Before you asked, I hadn't done the "fire up lots of apps" test with MC21.  So I tried it a few minutes ago.  I launched 5 apps and almost immediately got a dropout and then 2 (or 3?) more in the next 10 or 15 seconds.  I let those apps finish launching, then killed them. 

Next I checked to see if App Nap was disabled for MC21 and of course it was NOT because I hadn't run the command specifically for MC21... I had only run the AppNap disable for MC20.  So I typed in the command to disable it for MC21:

Code: [Select]

defaults write com.jriver.MediaCenter21 NSAppSleepDisabled -bool YES
I then launched 6 or 7 new apps that I hadn't launched today, and a few others that I had.  I let those finish launching, which took 45 to 60 seconds.  I had no dropouts during that time.  So the AppNap setting seems to make a large difference on my system with MC21, just like it did with MC20.

I wonder, did you cut and paste the exact command to disable AppNap on MC20?  I know you said you ran the command.  I ask if you cut and pasted because it's a long complex command with weird uppercase and lowercase characters and it would be easy to mistype it.  As a double check, you can cut and paste this to query the value and see what it returns:

Code: [Select]

defaults read com.jriver.MediaCenter20 NSAppSleepDisabled
Believe me, I know it's frustrating to have this problem.  I've lived with it in various forms for a number of months.  Luckily, it's almost completely fixed for me now.  If this software wasn't otherwise SO DAMN GOOD, I would have left months ago.  I felt like it was worth sticking around to try to find a solution because I like JRiver MC that much.

I hope we can find a solution for your problem too.  Again, I'm just another user trying to help you out.

Brian.

[AndyU]

Wow. I don't think you are stupid or lying, but it isn't my job to keep track of everything you ever said across hundreds of posts. Often it is easier to look at everything at once to make sure you didn't miss anything, or I didn't think to ask for something specific.  I regularly ask people for screenshots of the settings, because it is much easier to see them with my own eyes.

So, sorry if you felt insulted. That was absolutely not my intention.

However, I do think you are being a jerk now.  I was trying to help, on my own free time, out of the kindness of my heart. If you don't want any help, or demand unpaid 24-hour turnaround, when I was working 16 hours yesterday at my real job, then stuff it.

I was going to try to borrow a similar Mac Mini and see if I could reproduce the issue, but nevermind. I'm done.

glynor, I originally created a distinct thread reporting this problem. You deleted that thread, without the courtesy of telling me and amalgamated it with another one, which was already huge and rambling. Now you moan that it isn't your job to keep track of everything I said over hundreds of posts. I haven't made hundreds of posts. I have  made ten or twenty or so. If you had left my original thread alone instead of peremptorily and rudely deleting it you would have had no problem following the points I have made. You have contributed nothing to fixing my problem. Except of course now to insult me by calling me a jerk. I haven't asked, let alone demanded, anything of you. Enjoy your flounce. It is possible you are working too hard.

[AndyU]

I wonder, did you cut and paste the exact command to disable AppNap on MC20?  

Brian.

Yes Brian, I did cut and paste the exact command.

If you don't believe me, please look at the screenshots I posted in response to glynors request for proof that I had done that, and done the other things that have been suggested.

I attach it again.

[glynor]

You deleted that thread, without the courtesy of telling me and amalgamated it with another one, which was already huge and rambling. Now you moan that it isn't your job to keep track of everything I said over hundreds of posts. I haven't made hundreds of posts. I have  made ten or twenty or so.

Hundreds of posts on the forum, not hundreds of posts from you.  I know well what your post count is, and how demanding and rude you have been over the past few months.

Since you haven't bothered to find out, for your information, I also do not work for JRiver. You're being a jerk to some other user like yourself for no reason. I've been trying to help with my free time. You are treating me like you deserve something from me. You do not.  I'm sorry that your cheap, low-end Mini is messed up and doesn't work right, but I no longer care.

I have helped many people here, but I'm done helping you until you change your attitude. If you continue to be rude to people here, I'm going to give you a time out. I'm sure that if a JRiver employee was watching this right now, you'd be banned already from your attitude above, though I'm more hesitant to do that than others.

[glynor]

If you don't believe me, please look at the screenshots I posted in response to glynors request for proof that I had done that, and done the other things that have been suggested.

Also, FYI, that proves no such thing. The App Nap column doesn't mean what you think it does, so your screenshot is useless, which is why you were asked to confirm again.

The reason I posted, though, was not for you...

I wonder, did you cut and paste the exact command to disable AppNap on MC20?  I know you said you ran the command.

I don't know, Brian, if that is required with MC21 (or even the more recent build of MC20).  They asked us to test that to see if it made a difference and then they were going to build it in. It would be nice to get confirmation from John or Adam (if Adam is still around) on whether that has been done yet.

It seemed like it did make a difference for a number of users, and since the command doesn't persist across reboots, they really need to get it built in if it hasn't been done already.

[blgentry]

Yes Brian, I did cut and paste the exact command.

If you don't believe me, please look at the screenshots I posted in response to glynors request for proof that I had done that, and done the other things that have been suggested.

It's not that I don't believe you.  I was asking because I wanted to be sure.  Which is why I posted a command that you can try to make sure and confirm for yourself that the setting has been made and that it is still set.  The command I provided will output "1" if it's set and "0" if it's not set.

I don't claim to have all the answers.  I'm just trying to help.  Not trying to attack you.  Not thinking you're stupid.  Not doubting your ability to follow directions.  Just trying to help.

Brian.

[blgentry]

I don't know, Brian, if that is required with MC21 (or even the more recent build of MC20).  They asked us to test that to see if it made a difference and then they were going to build it in. It would be nice to get confirmation from John or Adam (if Adam is still around) on whether that has been done yet.

It seemed like it did make a difference for a number of users, and since the command doesn't persist across reboots, they really need to get it built in if it hasn't been done already.

I set it recently, as per my post above.  It certainly seemed to make a difference in my testing.  Though I only did one round of testing, so it's obviously not definitive.  I thought that all "defaults write" commands *do* persist across reboots.  In 5 minutes of searching I can't find a reference that says so either way.

I too would like to know if it's been set in the Application or not because if that's true then my observation of the setting making a difference must be wrong.  I *did* check before I set it though, and OS X reported something to the effect "that key does not exist".

Brian.

[glynor]

Oops. You're right. That one does persist, it was the other way we tried that cleared on reboot (the global disable).

[AndyU]

It's not that I don't believe you.  I was asking because I wanted to be sure.  Which is why I posted a command that you can try to make sure and confirm for yourself that the setting has been made and that it is still set.  The command I provided will output "1" if it's set and "0" if it's not set.

I don't claim to have all the answers.  I'm just trying to help.  Not trying to attack you.  Not thinking you're stupid.  Not doubting your ability to follow directions.  Just trying to help.

Brian.

OK, just did that. Got "1" as an answer. Happy to message you the screenshot for further confirmation, but would prefer not to post it publically as it shows my full name.

[AndyU]

Hundreds of posts on the forum, not hundreds of posts from you.  I know well what your post count is, and how demanding and rude you have been over the past few months.

Since you haven't bothered to find out, for your information, I also do not work for JRiver. You're being a jerk to some other user like yourself for no reason. I've been trying to help with my free time. You are treating me like you deserve something from me. You do not.  I'm sorry that your cheap, low-end Mini is messed up and doesn't work right, but I no longer care.

I have helped many people here, but I'm done helping you until you change your attitude. If you continue to be rude to people here, I'm going to give you a time out. I'm sure that if a JRiver employee was watching this right now, you'd be banned already from your attitude above, though I'm more hesitant to do that than others.

It is you who are rude glynor when you call my Mini "cheap, low-end .. and messed up".

I am retired and on a pension. My mac mini was a sizeable purchase for me. Are you suggesting that it is not up to the task of playing 16/44.1kHz FLACs? Other media players can. What is "messed-up" about it? Are you saying I have messed it up? How? Has the chap on the other thread with similar problems on a similar machine also messed his Mini up?

I apologise for giving you the impression that I expect anything from you. I do not.  But nor do I expect you to sneer at my purchase. If MC isn't expected to work on such a machine, then that should be stated. In every other respect my mac mini is terrific and satisfying and I am delighted with it. And I am well aware that you don't work for JRiver. I wish someone who did was addressing this problem.

[glynor]

It is you who are rude glynor when you call my Mini "cheap, low-end .. and messed up".

How is that rude?  I wasn't commenting on you*, I was commenting on your computer.  And, what I said is objectively true.

* Mac Minis are the cheapest Macs Apple makes.
* They are also, as of the current gen changes, quite low end. They changed them from desktop-class processors to laptop class processors, which have far less power than the previous versions.  Not as low-end as the Macbook One, but the 2011 Mac Minis (of which I have one) do outperform them in most ways.
* Yours is messed up. It doesn't work with MC right. That may very well be because something is broken on your Mini, on all of the current generation Minis, or in MC.  We don't know.  But it doesn't seem to impact everyone else in the same way (other than basically one or two other people, who seem to have very similar Minis).

That's all I meant. I don't understand why you seem to take so many things so personally. I am sorry that your experience is bad, with your cheap, low-end Mac Mini. That's what I said.  Should it work to play FLACs?  Sure, but maybe Apple's drivers are messed up? Maybe your particular Mini is messed up? Maybe you've installed some other application that is interfering? Maybe MC is doing something Apple doesn't expect and doesn't support on those particular models? We don't know, and JRiver doesn't know.

The only way someone from JRiver can "fix it" is if they can reproduce it, or we can give them enough detail for them to track it down. Your attitude all along has been "I don't care, I don't want to help, I just want them to figure it out and fix it."  That's fine, but it won't work, and you've made your point, so... Help provide detail (like Brian did with his issue, and we got it most-of-the-way to resolved), or it is time to stop now.

Please stop jumping into every tangentially related thread, like this one, and complaining.  That's why I consolidated the threads before (which I explained once already) because it is most effective to keep the detail about related issues in one place. This issue may not be directly related, but the symptoms certainly seemed to be at the time.

If MC doesn't meet your needs (and it sounds like it certainly doesn't, which I get) but other applications do, then they're over that way.

* Not in the statement quoted. When I said you were being a jerk, I was commenting on your behavior. I don't know if you're a nice person or not, I only have this experience here, which isn't very positive, and I'm not the only one who thinks so. But whatever.

[blgentry]

OK, just did that. Got "1" as an answer. Happy to message you the screenshot for further confirmation, but would prefer not to post it publically as it shows my full name.

Ok, confirmed.  I don't need a screen shot.  I'm disappointed that it was set properly, as I was hoping just a tiny bit that it wasn't and that it might help solve your issue.

I'm not sure where to go from here. 

Brian.