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[Omni]

9. Changed: Check for updates is now mandatory.

Please tell us that this was a typo!!!  (I won't even spam this thread with all the reason I hope it better be a typo. )

[JimH]

MC will check for updates every 7 days.  You can set it to check more frequently.  It will tell you what is available.  You can install whatever you want, including nothing.

[edbro]

I also would not like this "feature". Some of us like to stick with a version that works for them but might not be the latest and greatest. I don't see why this needs to be mandatory.

It is not that major of a deal but I just wanted to weigh in with my opinion.

[Omni]

Hmmmm....  warning, this is going to sound rude, but I don't really mean it that way.  (Just so you'll know.  I mean, I love you guys at JRiver; you're the best, but I just have an issue with this new policy.)


Okay, let me put it this way.  Unless you agree to send me a monthly check to help subsidize my internet connection fees, you have absolutely no right to seize control of my line without my consent, even if it's just to check for available updates.

 

And no, when I purchased MC 10, there was nothing in the Terms of Agreement about allowing you to seize control of my line.  (Of course, if there was and I missed it, then I stand corrected and withdraw this complaint. )

[scott_r]

I can see why you'd want this, and I've got no problems with MC "phoning home" every seven days, although I'm sure there will be people who have issues with it.

My only concern is this - If a user purchases 10.0 when it's released, and is happy using it, and then a maintenence release is done, and he/she upgrades because of auto-update-checking, that's great. But what happens when the next "paid-for" update, such as 10.1 or even 11 comes around? Will MC be asking the user to pay to upgrade to the latest version of MC every seven days for the rest of eternity? If this is the case then I can't see how it's fair. If there's one thing I hate more than spam in my mailbox, it's spam in my applications.

I'm not against mandatory auto-update checking, just as long as it only checks for free updates.

I'm not sure how MC displays the results, but I'm sure people will have issues with message boxes appearing if that's the way it's being done. Maybe a compromise would be to have an update manager that non-intrusively announces new updates, which is accessable from the Tools menu, or something like that.

Scott.

[lalittle]

I also don't like the idea of not being able to turn off this feature.  It's fine to have it default to "on," but to not be able to turn it off seems totally unnecessary, not to mention rather invasive.  I will check for updates now an then when I feel it's necessary, but I HATE it when programs automatically pop up telling me there are updates without asking -- this is the kind of thing that McAfee does, and NOBODY likes it.

Please at least allow the "option" of turning this off.

Larry

[pat1066]

Well, we have had so many goodies recently that it seems churlish to moan about forced update checking.


Much......  

[lalittle]

Well, we have had so many goodies recently that it seems churlish to moan about forced update checking.


Much......  

We're beta testing -- we're SUPPOSED to tell them about this sort of thing.  This is the whole point of releasing beta products to the public.

Larry

[rungabic]

I also strongly hope that update-checking will be made optional.  Please remember that some of us run MC on dedicated boxes, in a remote location, possibly without a local monitor, keyboard, or mouse.  Network usage by the checks aside (which would be minimal), I certainly hope that if this is forced, there will be no pop-up windows or anything else that will require user intervention or potentially compromise the stability of a media server.

[RemyJ]

Aside from my general dislike for things that phone home without asking, rungabic has an excellent point.

[scott_r]

Quote from JimH:

MC will check for updates every 7 days.  You can set it to check more frequently.

Quote from  Nikolay (from release thread):

Checks for updates has to be mandatory, but you can set it to check only once a month.

So.... it will default to 7 days, but you can set it more frequently if you want. However, you can also set it to check less frequently. Tell me again, what's the point of this?

Scott.

edit: that was supposed to be funny, not aggressive

[Xstatic]

I think its a great feature, and really cant't see the big issue here -
nobody is forced to download and install anything..??

I'm happy about it.

[scott_r]

I think its a great feature, and really cant't see the big issue here - nobody is forced to download and install anything..??

Agreed, update checking is a good idea, but the issue is not that we're being forced to download anything.

The issue that most people are having (as far as I can tell) is that we're being forced to put up with message boxes along the lines of "There are new updates available" when we would rather just have the option of turning those messages off. and checking for them ourselves. That's not too much to ask, is it?

rungabic's post suggests that it could also be quite impractical on systems that have no local keyboard, monitor, etc.

Marko also points out that users of dial-up connections may be inconvienienced when their connections want to become active.

In my first post in this thread I also asked about the ethical issues of constantly nagging people who have already paid for one version to upgrade to a newer version that may cost them again.

Also, the fact that auto-update checking was optional in the past makes me wonder why auto-update checking simply must be mandatory now, even if it can be drawn out to once a month, as Nikolay suggests.

Hope this clarifies things.

Scott.

[darkAngelChild]

I think its a great feature, and really cant't see the big issue here -
nobody is forced to download and install anything..??

I'm happy about it.

you might be happy about it but i definitely am not. that would be the point of making this optional. you add an option to check for update, if they feel it is very important to first time users then this option is on as default and for the rest of us that dont want it and feel that no software has the right to be constantly trying to make me upgrade it then we can turn it off.

i have mc on a htpc setup wired into a tv and have had to turn off automatic internet dialing purely because of mc dialing without me asking it to or realising and leaving my phone line blocked up and busy for hours.

i dont want to have to start settuping up a firewall purely just to control mc and how it acts and accesses the internet. this software sounds like its turning into real player.

[JiiPee]

this software sounds like its turning into real player

My thoughts  exactly and I don't like it at all.. Is this
some kind of pirate hunt or what or why it can't be optional?

[lalittle]

I think its a great feature, and really cant't see the big issue here -
nobody is forced to download and install anything..??

I'm happy about it.

But you ARE forced to deal with the popup.  While this may not seem like a big deal on the surface, it demonstrates a general programming philosophy that says it's okay to take "choice" away from the user.  This is a concept that is frowned upon -- particularly with procedures that really don't need to be mandatory.  When companies like McAfee went down this road, it just kept getting worse to the point where people turned to other programs just to avoid this "invasive" attitude.  I obviously don't think that this single issue will cause this to happen with MC, but it sets a bad precedent.

Larry

[zevele10]

well they must find a way to keep protected music under control
don't they?


Me , The GREAT Zev , Plays: VA-Acid Visions · Word D / Today Is Just Tomorrow's Yesterday [2:05 · #9] From the album: Acid Visions 3-CD1

[lalittle]

well they must find a way to keep protected music under control
don't they?

Did this get posted in the right thread?  I don't understand what this has to do with making the update popup mandatory.

Larry

[zevele10]

HA

It is ONLY about a check for update once a month all this mess?

Sorry i understood that the install of the update was mandatory.

Does not look like a big deal.
On the top of phoning home at start up , this is just a kind of extra for the same price.

[GHammer]

For a connection to a server to be mandatory, I'd guess there is more going on than a check for updates.

Yep, I always jump to conclusions, for those who are going to ask.

If software is only seeing if there is an update and I don't have to accept the update then it makes no sense for that to be mandatory.

God knows I simply loved Musicmatch pulling in the entire update then telling me it was 'available'. One of the main reasons I left it behind.

[Mastiff]

I also strongly hope that update-checking will be made optional.  Please remember that some of us run MC on dedicated boxes, in a remote location, possibly without a local monitor, keyboard, or mouse.  Network usage by the checks aside (which would be minimal), I certainly hope that if this is forced, there will be no pop-up windows or anything else that will require user intervention or potentially compromise the stability of a media server.

Exactly! I have it in my car, without monitor and keyboard, and on two computers in the house - the HTPC and the Server (which also handles Internet connections in my house). I can't have popups that blocks playback or does anything else, so I'm now downloading version 107, and I won't update MC again before this "feature" is out. I have been so satisfied with the way JRiver has handled everything, but this one stops upgrading dead in the water for me.

[Magicland]

No sir, I don't like it. I don't like it one bit. Any program that takes control of MY computer, and MY internet access, without MY approval, is just plain wrong, no matter what the thinking behind it. Big brother has no place on my machine. This had better be made optional in the release version.

[Polonio]

We still don't know about the music service stuff. MC has announced big news for over a year. The big news is comming, is pretty close.

But before that, MC includes invasive pop ups, and takes control of our internet connection. What will be next? Music News? Handheld promotion? A new Real One Player?  More MusicMatch?

I know you allready have taken a decision. But I fell free to cry and pledge:

No, please... stay being just a jukebox....

[cascius]

I think some of you guys are freaking out a bit too much. Since some of you have some valid reasons for which you'd like this option to be disablable, (is that a word? lmao), I wouldn't be surprised if the J River team were to allow that option in the near future.

Anyway, just chill and let's see what they do about it.

-olivier

[RhinoBanga]

Is this some kind of pirate hunt

It could very well be.

[KingSparta]

you guys can always block access to the out side of your local network using a firewall.

[ph_bradley]

i think it all depends on how frequently you guys plan to release builds - there hasnt been a new build of media jukebox in ages.

why not have a reminder every two weeks?
'there may be a new build available - do you want to go online and check?'

surely we can't object to that and it is would be in our best interest. as long as there is NO FORCED UPDATING, especially if you were by any chance to try and add a feature you might be working at the moment which people concerned about their privacy might be concerned about...

I want to be able to trust J River, but the program size has been creeping up and up and we're not receiving very clear information about what all these changes are for... please MC we are your customers, we pay your wages for this fantastic program you provide us with, have a little more respect for us please and let us know more about what's going on your end of the line.

[pank2002]

Yes, that is an option... BUT we - the users of this pice of softwear - have paid money for it! We shouldn't be forced to block for the softwear.
  For $25 or $40 I don't want to blcok my softwear.

I don't want to spied on, and least of all for softwear I've paid for.

Please remove this option, or make it optional. I'm sure some user would think it's great to provide J River with data, so let them, and let the rest of us go free.

For some reason I keep seeing this screen from the reasent Lord of the Rings where the eye is scanning the surface of morder...

BTW: I know that J river might not use this ability to spy on the users.

[JimH]

OK, I can see that you think it's a problem.

Here's our problem.  If we don't make sure people know about what he have, then they often run old software that may not do the job as well.  When they find out there's something newer, they say something like

"Hey, I just bought Version X.  Why didn't you tell me version X.1 was available?  That really stinks."

Or suppose we fix an ugly bug in an encoder plug-in?  Shouldn't we try to deliver that?

Or suppose we found a bug that created a security hole?

Or suppose we found that our software violated some term in a contract with a partner?

So, what would work?  Default to "check every x days" but allow a user to turn checking off?  Lengthen the time period to 14 o4 21 days?

[zevele10]

Ok

Easy to understand that people having a setting like Mastiff want to be able to uncheck this fonction.

And easy to see they are right.

Why MC would you like to call home once a month?

Can be to beat hackers using a crack.

In this case you can understand them.

Anyway , since few months they try so much to hyde things that look like large part of the trust people had is evaporate.

Anyway

Listening to: 'Beds Are Burning' from 'Diesel And Dust' by 'Midnight Oil' on Media Center 9.1.
Will never go the 10 way as i said before.

In fact , as soon as i finish to rip my 3000+ cds and tag , sleeve evt , i will use back  MC 9.0
NO PANES , you can have 50 000+ songs with art , bios , lyrics ect and 9.0 does not slow down.
It runs like a breaze.

[LonWar]

How bout when you Turn MC on, the start page goes to a screen that dispalys the most current version...

[salsbst1]

This is a TERRIBLE thing for an HTPC.  Please allow us to disable anything that pops up (splash screen, updates message, etc.).  It's fine if you default it to check for updates every time a full version is installed... just give us some way to disable it (even if we have to do so each time we manually upgrade) so that we can run MC on an HTPC.

[darkAngelChild]

default on, us able to turn it off permenantly for good would work for me.
please dont make the start page go online instantly.
dont want to be jumping on all the time when I dont want

[zevele10]

you posted while i was writting .

put it by default at ?? 10 days ?
Or give options like  once a week- every 2 weeks-- once a month.
With possibility to  turn it off

[edbro]

It is up to the consumer to check for updates. Especially if there is a problem in the current version. Heck, even the Evil Empire (MS) doesn't make me auto check for updates!

I understand that there are some that don't check and then look for support, wasting your resources. But, don't make everybody pay the price for those few. Instead, why don't you have it turned on by default but allow us to turn it off? The same people that don't know to check for updates will probably not look deep enough to turn off this option.

I am especially concerned because Jim said they might charge for the 10.1 upgrade. MC already does all I need it too so I probably won't buy such a minor upgrade. At that point, I don't need a weekly popup advertising a newer version I can buy.

[KingSparta]

I dont have a problem with all this, but if it finds a newer version i would like to know.

If it does not find a newer version i don't want to know it did not find a new version.

I do think a user should have an option to check only once a month And Or Also Turn It Off. But It Should Be On By Default, And Or Asked At The Time Of install What He\She Wants To Do And The Days And Duration He\She Wants To Do It..

I also think that any security risks should be checked for and only then and before the users settings of 30 days should he be shown an update.

As With Security Risks The MS Way, They Should Be Disclosed And User Informed.

Everyone should Also Know when installing Plug-Ins There may be a security risk, and J River Should Not Be Held Resp For Any Security Risks That Plug-in Should Bring.

It Would Be Very Easy For Me To Create A Plug-in to Search A Users System For Information, And Create A Back Door To Download That Information.

[scott_r]

So, what would work?  Default to "check every x days" but allow a user to turn checking off?  Lengthen the time period to 14 o4 21 days?

Thanks for the reply, Jim.

From my view, the best way to implement it would be thus:
- Make the default setting to check for updates every seven or so days.
- Make it possible to completely turn off, but when a user does turn it off, display a (one-time only) friendly message that explains why you think it's a good idea to leave it on.
- If the user does leave the setting on and MC does find updates, make the notification non-intrusive. For example, an icon in the corner of the screen, etc, or a label somewhere that states that new updates are available -  just not a popup window/message box. That way we know it's there, but it doesn't interrupt us from what we're doing.

I think this would be a good compromise.

What do you think?

Scott.

[pank2002]

As I understod the startuppage is loaded from JRiver's server already. why not make a news box there, or a check for reasent updates, or WARNING: download x build due to security glitch in build y through z?

Jim, I understand all of your point, and sure that sound nice, but the user should be able to turn it off. Sure, let it be turned on be default. Maby put links to recent update on the start page, with out ever bothering the user with popups or something like that.

[lalittle]

OK, I can see that you think it's a problem.

Here's our problem.  If we don't make sure people know about what he have, then they often run old software that may not do the job as well.  When they find out there's something newer, they say something like

"Hey, I just bought Version X.  Why didn't you tell me version X.1 was available?  That really stinks."

Or suppose we fix an ugly bug in an encoder plug-in?  Shouldn't we try to deliver that?

Or suppose we found a bug that created a security hole?

Or suppose we found that our software violated some term in a contract with a partner?

So, what would work?  Default to "check every x days" but allow a user to turn checking off?  Lengthen the time period to 14 o4 21 days?

The people in your example are the people who aren't going to turn it off in the first place -- they'll leave it set to the default "on" setting.  Those of us who DO prefer to turn it off will know to check for updates on our own.  It's the fact that you feel people shouldn't be trusted to make their own choice in the matter that people are reacting to.  If people are smart enough to turn the auto update off, they are smart enough to check for updates themselves.  If they want to solve a bug or check for new features, they'll check for updates.  I think you'll find that all the people who turn it off will probably check for updates MORE than once a month.

Even Microsoft allows people to "not" check for updates if they don't want to.  If you give us the option to turn the auto-checking on or off, EVERYBODY wins.  If you say you "need" to have the auto-update feature active, most people will assume that there is something else going on.

Larry

[MHunt]

It's all for marketing.  JRiver wants to force update notices and possible upgrade revenue on its users.  That is pretty simple to see.  Can you blame them?

[JimH]

...since few months they try so much to hyde things that look like large part of the trust people had is evaporate.

We don't have a choice about what we show and what we hide.  We have signed agreements that prevent us from disclosing what we're working on or even talking about.

Please try to understand that.  

[lalittle]

...since few months they try so much to hyde things that look like large part of the trust people had is evaporate.

We don't have a choice about what we show and what we hide.  We have signed agreements that prevent us from disclosing what we're working on or even talking about.

Please try to understand that.

Perhaps a direct question would be in order.  Are there any other reasons for making the update function "mandatory" that you aren't telling us?  You don't have to disclose what this reason is -- simply telling us "that" there is another reason won't break any agreements.

Once again, if people are smart enough to turn the auto-update function off, they're smart enough to manually check for updates.

Larry

[JimH]

So, what would work?  Default to "check every x days" but allow a user to turn checking off?  Lengthen the time period to 14 o4 21 days?

Anyone object to doing it this way?  If not, we'll change it in the next build.

[bjsolem]

So, what would work?  Default to "check every x days" but allow a user to turn checking off?  Lengthen the time period to 14 o4 21 days?

Anyone object to doing it this way?  If not, we'll change it in the next build.

That sounds like a reasonable solution given the opinions and requirements of people on this thread.

Thanks for listening JimH!

[lalittle]

So, what would work?  Default to "check every x days" but allow a user to turn checking off?

That sounds perfect.  I don't think anybody has a problem with the default number of days -- it's just the ability to turn checking off that people want.

Larry

[IanG]

How bout when you Turn MC on, the start page goes to a screen that dispalys the most current version...

That does it for me - it's got to be better than a page that's still telling me that version 9.1's just been released!

Ian G.

[zevele10]

I do understand it -
But you gave hints of things on they way .
So people start tu run in every corners trying to know WHAT IS IT .

As soon as the word 'protected music' goes into the game , many start to freak-out.


The more they freak out , the more the frenzy goes on you as well.
This is like an infernal circus playing in town.

Of cause , it is easy to me to say that it would have be better to give a free beta testing  , selling it when all put on the table.

But , i do not need to have people  paying for an upgrade to be able to run my house.
I i needed it , i would have do like you did.

Anyway , things are close to be out .

Everything may calm down after few days of posts non stop when all  out.

Good  luck.

PS : i think i know what the big dealS are.
But as i said , it is not me to say .
Beside it , i may be wrong .

[Shady Bimmer]

So, what would work?  Default to "check every x days" but allow a user to turn checking off?  Lengthen the time period to 14 o4 21 days?

Anyone object to doing it this way?  If not, we'll change it in the next build.

This seems to be a good solution.

Leave default to automatically check for updates at a periodic interval enabled but give us the option to change the interval or disable the automatic checking entirely.  If I can't disable this option I'll be using a software firewall to blck access, but I prefer not to use brute force build-a-brick-wall methods.

[AoXoMoXoA]

We don't have a choice about what we show and what we hide.  We have signed agreements that prevent us from disclosing what we're working on or even talking about.

Please try to understand that.  

So, are we (the paid users / independent of the "Big Deal" customer target base) locked into the terms & conditions of this "Big Deal"?

Are we forced to become targets of this "Big Deal's" marketing?

Are we going to be limited to only the "Big Deal" version of Media Center, or will there be an independent version for paying customers who wish NOT to be involved or affected by the "Big Deal"?

Please let us know this, because if this is the case it will definately affect my choice of media software as we move forward.  I do NOT wish to be involved in using software that links me with any type of music service (etc) without my consent.  In the meantime, my firewall will suffice.

[hit_ny]

Any chance of giving us an option over the start page too while you're in the mood?

-marko.

Would Tools->Options->Startup->Startup Page->Start In (eg. Playing now) be a possible work-around (for the moment ?