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Author Topic: Tv "Extender" like WMC  (Read 12760 times)

tzr916

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Tv "Extender" like WMC
« on: December 04, 2015, 01:13:12 pm »

WMC uses one main WMC machine then other tv's in the house use an "extender" to watch live tv or recorded tv. Not talking about zones. Talking- one room can watch live tv channel ABC, another room can watch live tv CBS, another room can watch recorded show XYZ.

Does JRiver MC have this ability?
What type of machines/hardware?
What type of OS? android/windows/other
Does each "extender" need a license?
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JimH

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Re: Tv "Extender" like WMC
« Reply #1 on: December 04, 2015, 01:27:58 pm »

Welcome to the forum.  MC has extensive abilities to play to other machines.  Please read the Media Network topic on our wiki for details.

You can use another copy of MC running on any OS.

You can use an Android or iOS tablet.
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tzr916

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Re: Tv "Extender" like WMC
« Reply #2 on: December 04, 2015, 03:17:30 pm »

Welcome to the forum.  MC has extensive abilities to play to other machines.  Please read the Media Network topic on our wiki for details.

You can use another copy of MC running on any OS.

You can use an Android or iOS tablet.
I have read the wiki. It mostly talks about DLNA sharing of stored content. It does not seem to explain if or how clients can access TV TUNERS.

Can clients access networked tuners (Ceton tuners are NOT DLNA)?

Can clients watch Live Tv and use PAUSE, REW, FF?

Can clients view the GUIDE and schedule recordings via it's remote?

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JimH

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Re: Tv "Extender" like WMC
« Reply #3 on: December 04, 2015, 03:25:00 pm »

Yes.  MC can access network tuners.  You could try the software.

You can watch live TV.

A Windows client can access the EPG.
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CountryBumkin

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Re: Tv "Extender" like WMC
« Reply #4 on: December 04, 2015, 03:48:26 pm »

The typical setup (from my experience) is to run JRiver on a computer that is left running 24/7 (the "Server". This is where the MC "Library" is located. The actual media can be on this Server or a NAS or wherever) and that Server computer has the TV Tuner cards. Then you put a small PC at each TV (the Client).

The Client computers will use/share the TV Tuners on the Server.
You can watch multiple channels at the same time on different Clients (if you have multiple TV Tuners on the Server), set recordings and subscriptions from any Client, watch movies (multiple Clients can watch different movies at the same time as long as you have the network bandwidth), you can listen to audio, etc.
Clients can pause Live TV, have RR FFW features. You can also start watching a TV show and then later, at the end of the show, decide you want to record/save it and MC will save the show from the beginning.

I don't use Android or iOS devices, but they work too - as others have posted.

Just be aware that JRiver can't do "Copy-Once" programs, so if you have a cable-card and your cable provider flags the TV channels as Copy-Once, JRiver is not going to work. But JRiver has Kickstarter campaign open now to see if they can raise enough interest/funds to add this feature (licensing fees are high) but this feature won't be added unless there is enough interest.
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tzr916

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Re: TV Extender like WMC
« Reply #5 on: December 04, 2015, 05:08:55 pm »

I donated to the Kickstarter as soon as I saw it on Green Button forum. Comcast only sets copy flag on movie channels like HBO, SHO, MGM, etc. If the Kickstarter succeeds, with CLIENTS be able to view these channels? Will CLIENTS be able to play back shows recorded on these channels?

The problems with trying it out:

- afraid of conflict with my current WMC machine. Do I need to build a separate JRiver MC Server? Will it run on the same machine that is doing full time WMC right now?

- cost of replacing 4 existing WMC extenders. If each room needs a $300+ windows pc, it's not likely to happen. Maybe $99 Fire Tv or similar?





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CountryBumkin

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Re: Tv "Extender" like WMC
« Reply #6 on: December 04, 2015, 05:46:32 pm »

It is my understanding that if/when JRiver solves the Copy-Once issue, all machines running MC will be able to view the content.

I know that other have had problems trying to run WMC and MC on the same computer. The problem seems to be that WMC takes control of the TV Tuner(s) and then JRiver program can't get access to them.

I know there are other ways to set up multiple TVs to use JRiver, but I have only done it with PCs - so I don't want to comment or provide bad info on this. Perhaps someone else will chime in.

I also have FireTV on two of my TVs, its nice for alternative programming/choices but not a replacement for MC.
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hoyt

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Re: Tv "Extender" like WMC
« Reply #7 on: December 04, 2015, 05:49:25 pm »

- cost of replacing 4 existing WMC extenders. If each room needs a $300+ windows pc, it's not likely to happen. Maybe $99 Fire Tv or similar?

That's pretty neat... I never knew about MCE devices before.

Is the JRiver equivalent the Id?  http://jriver.com/Id/  Seems like the Id Stick would be a decent equivalent to most of the MCE devices I saw quickly.  Then you just control the Id with Gizmo or JRemote.
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Yaobing

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Re: Tv "Extender" like WMC
« Reply #8 on: December 04, 2015, 06:36:18 pm »

It is my understanding that if/when JRiver solves the Copy-Once issue, all machines running MC will be able to view the content.

Hmm...

Good question.  We have to study OpenCable rules on that.
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tzr916

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Re: Tv "Extender" like WMC
« Reply #9 on: December 05, 2015, 09:18:42 am »

Hmm...

Good question.  We have to study OpenCable rules on that.

For the people who's cable company copy flags all channels, this is a very big "Hmm..."
I would like to watch HBO, SHO, etc on all 5 Tv's in my house. Would be sad if I could only watch on the main MC Server Tv.
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CountryBumkin

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Re: Tv "Extender" like WMC
« Reply #10 on: December 05, 2015, 03:22:36 pm »

I shouldn't assume how MC is going to work with Copy-Once programming - but maybe MC could use the "WMC Extender" that many WMC users already have for viewing the Copy-Once programming.
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rudyrednose

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Re: TV Extender like WMC
« Reply #11 on: December 10, 2015, 10:18:06 am »

If each room needs a $300+ windows pc, it's not likely to happen.
Cost of basic Windows 8.1/10 machines suitable for JR client purposes is plummeting. 
Devices such as the Pipo X7 are down to $110 http://www.gearbest.com/tv-box/pp_137996.html?gclid=CIWC65nX0ckCFQ8taQod2bcEGA
Just add a remote.

But if I was in the market for one, I would look for a Cherry Trail based one (much more powerful graphics engine than the X7's quad core Bay Trail).
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greynolds

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Re: Tv "Extender" like WMC
« Reply #12 on: December 10, 2015, 10:25:47 pm »

I shouldn't assume how MC is going to work with Copy-Once programming - but maybe MC could use the "WMC Extender" that many WMC users already have for viewing the Copy-Once programming.
Definitely not - the WMC extenders are either a Microsoft XBOX or a dedicated WMC extender (there was never a vast choice of these), in both cases running software that will only work with WMC.
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tzr916

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Re: TV Extender like WMC
« Reply #13 on: December 29, 2015, 06:31:11 pm »

Quote
...I would look for a Cherry Trail based one (much more powerful graphics engine than the X7's quad core Bay Trail).


Got my first Client setup and did some quick testing today with live tv and recordings (some wtv some ts). Had to tweak several things to get decent playback but it's still not as smooth as I would like. I am seeing some intermittent stutter in camera panning, scrolling news tickers, and especially for 1080i mpeg4 (which is going to become the norm). Using HDMI to Denon AVR to Sony 1080p LCD. MC Server with Q9450 CPU and nVidia GPU looks perfectly fine, so not too worried about clients for bedroom usage. I guess I shouldn't expect perfection from a $150 miniPC.

MC Client Settings:
VIDEO: Red October Standard & Hardware Acceleration
AUDIO: WASAPI & HDMI Bitstreaming

Client Intel Driver:
1080p 60Hz
Contrast Enhancement OFF
Film Mode On
Power- Max Quality
General - Performance

Client Hardware (miniPC box from China):
Windows 10 x64
CPU: Z8300 1.4GHz Quad Core
GPU: Gen 8 Intel HD
Hard Drive: 32GB eMMC
RAM: 2GB DDR3L
LAN: 100Mbps Wired Ethernet



Next client tests will be IR receiver + remote. Then only thing stopping me from ditching WMC is the Commercial Skipping behavior in MC.


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RoderickGI

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Re: Tv "Extender" like WMC
« Reply #14 on: December 29, 2015, 09:12:18 pm »

2GB of RAM on a 64bit Windows system. Is that enough?

Run the JRiver Benchmark and post the results please. I'm interested in your extender experiment results.

Oh, and on the Client, VideoClock set?
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What specific version of MC you are running:MC27.0.27 @ Oct 27, 2020 and updating regularly Jim!                        MC Release Notes: https://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/Release_Notes
What OS(s) and Version you are running:     Windows 10 Pro 64bit Version 2004 (OS Build 19041.572).
The JRMark score of the PC with an issue:    JRMark (version 26.0.52 64 bit): 3419
Important relevant info about your environment:     
  Using the HTPC as a MC Server & a Workstation as a MC Client plus some DLNA clients.
  Running JRiver for Android, JRemote2, Gizmo, & MO 4Media on a Sony Xperia XZ Premium Android 9.
  Playing video out to a Sony 65" TV connected via HDMI, playing digital audio out via motherboard sound card, PCIe TV tuner

tzr916

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Re: Tv "Extender" like WMC
« Reply #15 on: December 29, 2015, 09:33:00 pm »

Belarc says there is another RAM slot, but not sure if adding more is possible. Have to ask the manufacturer.

Tried VideoClock On/Off. Did not seem to help either way but I was trying all different kinds of settings, so I can re-visit.

Code: [Select]
=== Running Benchmarks (please do not interrupt) ===

Running 'Math' benchmark...
    Single-threaded integer math... 11.916 seconds
    Single-threaded floating point math... 6.201 seconds
    Multi-threaded integer math... 6.792 seconds
    Multi-threaded mixed math... 3.718 seconds
Score: 664

Running 'Image' benchmark...
    Image creation / destruction... 3.086 seconds
    Flood filling... 1.390 seconds
    Direct copying... 2.572 seconds
    Small renders... 6.779 seconds
    Bilinear rendering... 4.191 seconds
    Bicubic rendering... 3.022 seconds
Score: 1046

Running 'Database' benchmark...
    Create database... 1.138 seconds
    Populate database... 5.801 seconds
    Save database... 1.320 seconds
    Reload database... 0.215 seconds
    Search database... 4.595 seconds
    Sort database... 4.786 seconds
    Group database... 2.541 seconds
Score: 1054

JRMark (version 21.0.30): 921
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•OS on Crucial P5 Plus M.2 PCIe Gen4 •Tv Recordings on SATA 6TB WD Red Pro
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RoderickGI

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Re: Tv "Extender" like WMC
« Reply #16 on: December 29, 2015, 11:31:07 pm »

Well the minimum memory required for Windows 10 64bit is 2GB, and I never trust a minimum, particularly if there isn't a lot of spare disk drive space for swap space.

That benchmark: Ouch for interlaced mpeg4, 1080i video. De-interlacing can put quite a load on a system. It gives me the most trouble on an Intel HD4000 iGPU. I think someone else did some testing and concluded a low power PC is good for all but de-interlacing.

Did you look through the benchmarking thread? There are a few NUC benchmarks for comparison.
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What specific version of MC you are running:MC27.0.27 @ Oct 27, 2020 and updating regularly Jim!                        MC Release Notes: https://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/Release_Notes
What OS(s) and Version you are running:     Windows 10 Pro 64bit Version 2004 (OS Build 19041.572).
The JRMark score of the PC with an issue:    JRMark (version 26.0.52 64 bit): 3419
Important relevant info about your environment:     
  Using the HTPC as a MC Server & a Workstation as a MC Client plus some DLNA clients.
  Running JRiver for Android, JRemote2, Gizmo, & MO 4Media on a Sony Xperia XZ Premium Android 9.
  Playing video out to a Sony 65" TV connected via HDMI, playing digital audio out via motherboard sound card, PCIe TV tuner

JimH

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Re: Tv "Extender" like WMC
« Reply #17 on: December 29, 2015, 11:35:28 pm »

That's a weak benchmark.
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tzr916

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Re: TV Extender like WMC
« Reply #18 on: December 30, 2015, 08:59:33 am »

....cost of replacing 4 existing WMC extenders. If each room needs a $300+ windows pc, it's not likely to happen. Maybe $99 Fire Tv or similar?


Bummer, looks like a real MC Client should indeed be a $300+ PC  :(

I'm going to try playing with Tools > Options > General > Video Card in MC. These clients are only bedroom Tv's and don't get used often compared to the Server Tv.
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tzr916

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Re: Tv "Extender" like WMC
« Reply #19 on: December 31, 2015, 01:42:16 pm »

I reduced the Client from 1080p to 720p and set the MC video card options to off except wait for vsync. Mpeg4 playback is much smoother but there is still some occasional micro stutter in news tickers at the bottom of the screen, which I can live with. Opened a new thread for two other more serious Client bugs - garbled audio and setting up recordings.
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•i7-11700k @ 3.6GHz~5GHz •32GB PC4-25600 DDR4
•OS on Crucial P5 Plus M.2 PCIe Gen4 •Tv Recordings on SATA 6TB WD Red Pro
•4 OTA & 6 CableCard SiliconDust Tuners
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tzr916

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Re: Tv "Extender" like WMC
« Reply #20 on: January 02, 2016, 11:45:18 am »

Looks like my $150 Client experiment is done. Cannot resolve the garbled audio problem. Unacceptable for every day use. Cannot walk up to a tv and have garbled audio more than 50% of the time, just won't fly in this house.

http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=102325.0
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•OS on Crucial P5 Plus M.2 PCIe Gen4 •Tv Recordings on SATA 6TB WD Red Pro
•4 OTA & 6 CableCard SiliconDust Tuners
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tzr916

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Re: Tv "Extender" like WMC
« Reply #21 on: January 12, 2016, 03:38:02 pm »

Returned the miniPC and got a SFF machine.
No more issues with garbled audio on starting up video/live tv.
No more problems intermittent stutter in camera panning, scrolling news tickers, and 1080i mpeg4.
Have to live with much larger footprint, more power consumption, and fan noise.

New machine has these specs:

Core 2 Duo 2.40GHz
4GB DDR2
250GB HDD
Windows 7 Home Premium
ATI Radeon HD 5450
Gigabit LAN

MC Client Benchmark:
Code: [Select]
=== Running Benchmarks (please do not interrupt) ===

Running 'Math' benchmark...
    Single-threaded integer math... 4.690 seconds
    Single-threaded floating point math... 2.934 seconds
    Multi-threaded integer math... 4.697 seconds
    Multi-threaded mixed math... 2.934 seconds
Score: 1246

Running 'Image' benchmark...
    Image creation / destruction... 0.374 seconds
    Flood filling... 1.455 seconds
    Direct copying... 2.453 seconds
    Small renders... 3.048 seconds
    Bilinear rendering... 4.462 seconds
    Bicubic rendering... 2.570 seconds
Score: 1532

Running 'Database' benchmark...
    Create database... 0.482 seconds
    Populate database... 2.991 seconds
    Save database... 0.770 seconds
    Reload database... 0.270 seconds
    Search database... 2.157 seconds
    Sort database... 2.017 seconds
    Group database... 1.250 seconds
Score: 2163

JRMark (version 21.0.34): 1647

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JRiverMC v33 •Windows 10 Pro 64bit •Defender Exclusions •ṈŘ 3rd party AV
•ASUS TUF gaming WiFi z590 •Thermaltake Toughpower GX2 600W
•i7-11700k @ 3.6GHz~5GHz •32GB PC4-25600 DDR4
•OS on Crucial P5 Plus M.2 PCIe Gen4 •Tv Recordings on SATA 6TB WD Red Pro
•4 OTA & 6 CableCard SiliconDust Tuners
•nVidia RTX2060 •XBR65Z9D •AVRX3700H •Fluance 7.2.2 [FH]
•SMP1000DSPѫRSS315HE-22■DIYSG Cube-12
•eD LT.500ѫeD 13ov.2■eD A3-300

CountryBumkin

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Re: Tv "Extender" like WMC
« Reply #22 on: January 13, 2016, 09:37:10 am »

Thanks for the follow up. Glad you got it working. You may even be able to step up to RO+HQ (madVR) now.
So a JMark score around 1500 is the minimum for interlaced TV playback it seems.
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tzr916

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Re: Tv "Extender" like WMC
« Reply #23 on: January 13, 2016, 10:15:02 am »

The new machine was under $150 (refurbished with 1 year warranty) and they have more in stock. But the more testing I do, the more problems pop up. Seems like some evil power does not want JRiver to replace WMC in this house  :-\  Only a few days left in the trial software and two things are stopping me from purchasing:

- AC3 Stereo tv channels have severe audio drop outs (Server and Client) http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=102559.0

- Automatic commercial skipping & no commercial markers in the timeline http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=96783.0

If the AC3 Stereo issue gets solved, I will assume that commercial skipping will be added later....
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JRiverMC v33 •Windows 10 Pro 64bit •Defender Exclusions •ṈŘ 3rd party AV
•ASUS TUF gaming WiFi z590 •Thermaltake Toughpower GX2 600W
•i7-11700k @ 3.6GHz~5GHz •32GB PC4-25600 DDR4
•OS on Crucial P5 Plus M.2 PCIe Gen4 •Tv Recordings on SATA 6TB WD Red Pro
•4 OTA & 6 CableCard SiliconDust Tuners
•nVidia RTX2060 •XBR65Z9D •AVRX3700H •Fluance 7.2.2 [FH]
•SMP1000DSPѫRSS315HE-22■DIYSG Cube-12
•eD LT.500ѫeD 13ov.2■eD A3-300
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