INTERACT FORUM

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  
Pages: [1]   Go Down

Author Topic: Image related issues  (Read 6595 times)

park

  • MC Beta Team
  • Citizen of the Universe
  • *****
  • Posts: 2353
  • I wish I had more to say!
Image related issues
« on: September 27, 2006, 10:20:07 am »

Hi all,

Was busy at work for a while and just got back from holiday, so catching up with MC a bit. But have plenty of new photos and using MC to organize them has thrown up a few issues for me.

1: Double clicking on an image doesnt make the "display" action window pop-up, if you are looking at another action window when you do it. You have to go searching for the display window yourself.

2: Rotate right always fails (not the rotate property in tag window)

3: date sorting is weird. I used a Canon G3 camera to take all my pictures (majority camera raw but some jpegs). MC used to display images fine, with the most recent on top. However, now, in panes view my images are in a strange order. So random i cant even describe the pattern. I have tried sorting by the "date" on the sort menu, and by going into customize currrent view. Both give strange results. Adobe Bridge with sort set to date created sorts them perfectly.

4: raw images in playing now and the thumbnails are not very good quality. Quite hideous actually. All of my (raw) images look too bright and desaturated/grey. There seems to be lots of clipping going on too, like i overexposed the photos. This really shows up when played after a jpeg image taken in the same place, which is displayed as rich and full of colour.

5: no play icon appears over thumbnails in a viewscheme when watching a slideshow and listening to music at the same time. The little play icon is really useful when tagging to see which one is being played in a slideshow so that you can edit its tags.

Hope some of these things get some attention soon. I want to show my holiday photos to friends.  :)
Logged

JimH

  • Administrator
  • Citizen of the Universe
  • *****
  • Posts: 71370
  • Where did I put my teeth?
Re: Image related issues
« Reply #1 on: September 27, 2006, 10:30:52 am »

Something isn't right.  Rotate works fine for me.  Are they jpg files?
Logged

Matt

  • Administrator
  • Citizen of the Universe
  • *****
  • Posts: 41941
  • Shoes gone again!
Re: Image related issues
« Reply #2 on: September 27, 2006, 11:33:04 am »

1: Double clicking on an image doesnt make the "display" action window pop-up, if you are looking at another action window when you do it. You have to go searching for the display window yourself.

This is by design.  Only the default "Navigation" page will be replaced with Display.

Set Jump on play to fullscreen (if has display) for a nice big preview.
Logged
Matt Ashland, JRiver Media Center

park

  • MC Beta Team
  • Citizen of the Universe
  • *****
  • Posts: 2353
  • I wish I had more to say!
Re: Image related issues
« Reply #3 on: September 27, 2006, 10:26:45 pm »

Jim, the files that always fail are CRW files; Canon Raw files.

Matt, thanks for the suggestion. Full screen mode would take me away from the library though, and I am viewing the images because I'm tagging. Besides, I like seeing things in the little display action window first, and deciding where to go from there.
If something has a display and you double click to play it, I think it's not unrealistic to expect that its' corresponding action window come to the front.

Personally I still advocate using the Image action window to preview images and play them in slideshows etc. Then music and its corresponding cover art or image slideshows (some audio podcasts have visuals) would all be in one place, and image slideshows etc. could be controlled independantly. Far from complicating the situation I think this would actually be an easier way to do things.
Those that really want the ability to change the order of images being played, or use other features of playing now, could force images into playing now using the "Add to playing now".
Logged

park

  • MC Beta Team
  • Citizen of the Universe
  • *****
  • Posts: 2353
  • I wish I had more to say!
Re: Image related issues
« Reply #4 on: September 30, 2006, 08:42:08 am »

Quote
4: raw images in playing now and the thumbnails are not very good quality. Quite hideous actually. All of my (raw) images look too bright and desaturated/grey. There seems to be lots of clipping going on too, like i overexposed the photos. This really shows up when played after a jpeg image taken in the same place, which is displayed as rich and full of colour.

Seems I was a bit premeture in reporting this one. Adobe Bridge shows the files  in the same way, so it must be something to do with the pictures themselves.

Would really love to see the date issue sorted out though. I think that at the moment, the view is sorting first by the groupings in the next pane, and then by the sorting method in the menu. (Eg. in a view containing panes like "Countries" and then "Places", if you select a country, then the list at the bottom sorts by the places within that country first, and then by "date" as specified in the sorting menu.) This is reeeeeeeally weird, and constantly disruptive for me when i try to create slideshows, or want to do tagging.

P.S
It would be just dandy if there were some way to see photos sorted by day (most recent first) but then shown in the order the photos were taken (so sorted first by day, and then reverse sorted by minute/hour.)
Logged

park

  • MC Beta Team
  • Citizen of the Universe
  • *****
  • Posts: 2353
  • I wish I had more to say!
Re: Image related issues
« Reply #5 on: September 30, 2006, 09:03:08 am »

Just played with Adobe Bridge a bit more and managed to get my images looking a bit more normal. Adobe bridge shows thumbnails for the files based on any changes made to the raw files image settings. It seems to be doing this by reading a file called "sidecare.xmp" which the camera raw software creates and places next to each raw file. Any chance of MC being able to read these files to decide how a raw file should be displayed and thumbnailed?
MC is still displaying the files as they were before i changed their image settings.

Thanks,

Bri
Logged

marko

  • MC Beta Team
  • Citizen of the Universe
  • *****
  • Posts: 8941
Re: Image related issues
« Reply #6 on: September 30, 2006, 09:14:04 am »

P.S
It would be just dandy if there were some way to see photos sorted by day (most recent first) but then shown in the order the photos were taken (so sorted first by day, and then reverse sorted by minute/hour.)
I 1st mentioned this back in July... still got my fingers crossed...

park

  • MC Beta Team
  • Citizen of the Universe
  • *****
  • Posts: 2353
  • I wish I had more to say!
Re: Image related issues
« Reply #7 on: October 04, 2006, 10:20:21 pm »

Quote
12. Changed: Updated DCRaw.
13. Changed: RAW file decodes are now cached on a per session basis.  (First file load is slow but subsequent loads should be fast.  On a per session basis.)

Thanks for this. My pics look a little bit better now (I think). However, still nowhere near as nice as when I view them in Bridge. Also, am I right in assuming that the thumbnails dont get updated though? Mine still all have the washed out look of the photos when i imported them the first time?

A couple of new things I've noticed:

1. I used "270" in the rotation field to get my pics (Canon raw .crw files) looking right in mc, and have since done more editing in Bridge (only colour and brightness stuff, not rotation editing), and now when i look at the photos in MC again all the files with the "270" rotation are on their side and need to have the "270" value cleared to be the right way up again.

2. None of the photo tag data for canon raw files (iso, aperture etc.) is visible in MC.

And regarding the Date issue: is this a bug, or intended logic?
Logged

DarkPenguin

  • Citizen of the Universe
  • *****
  • Posts: 1921
Re: Image related issues
« Reply #8 on: October 05, 2006, 08:33:48 pm »

I was using the canon RAW SDK but it was simpler to just go with DCRaw.  I'll have to look at getting all the file fields exported to the player.  One of the upshots of DCRaw is that I do not have to concern myself with rotation.  It just takes care of it.  This could cause some issues if they were being explicitly rotated in MC.

Logged

park

  • MC Beta Team
  • Citizen of the Universe
  • *****
  • Posts: 2353
  • I wish I had more to say!
Re: Image related issues
« Reply #9 on: October 05, 2006, 09:50:23 pm »

That sounds better doesnt it. It will be simpler for future files that are imported. I have removed my rotation info.

Quote
19. New: Raw decode quality settings available in playback->Image options.
20. New: Raw decode cache settings available in playback->image options.  Cache directory setting there.

What does having a definable cache directory achieve? Is it just the ability to manually delete the files when you want the cache to be refreshed?

Any news on whether MC could be made to read the XMP files next to the files to retrieve image info (exposure, colour, contrast etc.) ? I have got my photos looking pretty decent in Adobe Bridge but they still look awful in MC.

And the Date thing?
Logged

DarkPenguin

  • Citizen of the Universe
  • *****
  • Posts: 1921
Re: Image related issues
« Reply #10 on: October 05, 2006, 10:11:58 pm »

Which date thing was that?

The first cache implementation only cached the files for the duration of the MC session.  So if you were moving around a view the tiffs would only have to be reread.  This allows the files to stay around until you delete them.

Still working on some other options for this.

I'm not sure what we're currently doing with xmp.
Logged

park

  • MC Beta Team
  • Citizen of the Universe
  • *****
  • Posts: 2353
  • I wish I had more to say!
Re: Image related issues
« Reply #11 on: October 05, 2006, 10:18:04 pm »

Thanks for the quick reply.

I mentioned some wierd behaviour with the sorting of photos at the top of the post:

Quote
I think that at the moment, the view is sorting first by the groupings in the next pane, and then by the sorting method in the menu. (Eg. in a view containing panes like "Countries" and then "Places", if you select a country, then the list at the bottom sorts by the places within that country first, and then by "date" as specified in the sorting menu.) This is reeeeeeeally weird, and constantly disruptive for me when i try to create slideshows, or want to do tagging.
Logged

park

  • MC Beta Team
  • Citizen of the Universe
  • *****
  • Posts: 2353
  • I wish I had more to say!
Re: Image related issues
« Reply #12 on: October 08, 2006, 12:26:44 pm »

Does anybody know if there is a way to get Adobe Bridge and MC to share ratings info?
Logged

park

  • MC Beta Team
  • Citizen of the Universe
  • *****
  • Posts: 2353
  • I wish I had more to say!
Re: Image related issues
« Reply #13 on: October 11, 2006, 01:02:51 am »

Quote
2. NEW: Added two options to cache RAW file output as Jpegs.  (This takes the cached file size down from (in the case of a Canon 20D) 25MB's to under 1MB.)
Nice. Thanks for the progress so far on raw file playback. I'd like to know how MC creates the output for a raw file though. Is it set to read the "As shot" settings of a picture? Does it try to do any processing (Contrast etc.)?

Quote
7. New: RAW File cache can now be cleared from options.  Code added to invalidate cache files.

I've been looking in Adobe Bridge's "Camera Raw" plugin preferences and it seems that there are two ways to store information about camera raw files. One is in a camera raw cache/database, much like what MC is doing now I guess. This is a definable path. The other way is to make "Sidecar .xmp" files next to the images.

I have tried making the defniable raw cache path for both MC and Bridge the same. However, it seems that Bridge makes the cache files as sequential (from 0000000) .dat files, and adds an index.dat file too. That's a shame. It would have been nice if MC and Bridge could share the same cache files.

Perhaps the only hope of being able to see edited raw files in MC (without exporting them and importing them into MC as seperate files) lies in MC being able to read the sidecar .xmp files. 


Quote
3. NEW: RAW files now provide their ISO, FL, Shutter, Aperature and Camera.

Not for my files. I am using a Canon G3 camera and none of said information appears.

Thanks,

Brian

Logged

park

  • MC Beta Team
  • Citizen of the Universe
  • *****
  • Posts: 2353
  • I wish I had more to say!
Re: Image related issues
« Reply #14 on: October 11, 2006, 02:10:06 am »

One more thing. Could we have a function to "Build the cache" perhaps as a background thread. At the moment the program is very slow at previewing, showing tag info, and playing raw files.

Also, I would put all of the camera raw options in the Tree and View section, next to the thumbnails section. Seems like a more logical place to me.
Logged

DarkPenguin

  • Citizen of the Universe
  • *****
  • Posts: 1921
Re: Image related issues
« Reply #15 on: October 11, 2006, 10:37:53 am »

It is all as shot.

You should be able to set MC to use "with files" (as jpg or tiff) and MC will NOT add the unique number to the cache file.  So if you have xxx.cr2 and xxx.jpg next to it (from your current converter) we can just read that file and not create our own.  If you're importing files you'll want to be careful, however, and select only the type you want to import.  Otherwise you'll have both the .cr2's listed and the .jpg's.

You'll have to update from tags to get the current information from your raw files.

I've some other ideas on this stuff.  But it is all as time permits.

The cache should be created when the thumbnails are created.  I'm not sure when thumbnails are created.

Nice. Thanks for the progress so far on raw file playback. I'd like to know how MC creates the output for a raw file though. Is it set to read the "As shot" settings of a picture? Does it try to do any processing (Contrast etc.)?

I've been looking in Adobe Bridge's "Camera Raw" plugin preferences and it seems that there are two ways to store information about camera raw files. One is in a camera raw cache/database, much like what MC is doing now I guess. This is a definable path. The other way is to make "Sidecar .xmp" files next to the images.

I have tried making the defniable raw cache path for both MC and Bridge the same. However, it seems that Bridge makes the cache files as sequential (from 0000000) .dat files, and adds an index.dat file too. That's a shame. It would have been nice if MC and Bridge could share the same cache files.

Perhaps the only hope of being able to see edited raw files in MC (without exporting them and importing them into MC as seperate files) lies in MC being able to read the sidecar .xmp files. 


Not for my files. I am using a Canon G3 camera and none of said information appears.

Thanks,

Brian


Logged

park

  • MC Beta Team
  • Citizen of the Universe
  • *****
  • Posts: 2353
  • I wish I had more to say!
Re: Image related issues
« Reply #16 on: October 11, 2006, 10:28:01 pm »

Quote
It is all as shot.
This is a problem for me for a bunch of my photos because the "As shot" setting on them has mysteriously put a horrible red tint over all of them and has some horrible white clipping going on. The problem is in the files themselves though, since Bridges's camera raw plugin displayed them the same way. I have managed to fix them by removing the "tint" and "brightness" values. Now Bridge previews them ok, but MC is still seeing them "As shot"


Quote
You should be able to set MC to use "with files" (as jpg or tiff) and MC will NOT add the unique number to the cache file.  So if you have xxx.cr2 and xxx.jpg next to it (from your current converter) we can just read that file and not create our own.  If you're importing files you'll want to be careful, however, and select only the type you want to import.  Otherwise you'll have both the .cr2's listed and the .jpg's.

This solution is impractical for me, since I dont store all my raw files in the same folder, and so I cant tell Otto to ignore just the jpegs that correspond to the raw files.

Quote
You'll have to update from tags to get the current information from your raw files.
The cache should be created when the thumbnails are created.  I'm not sure when thumbnails are created.

The update files from tags refreshed the cache, thus rebuilt thumbnails from scratch and populated my specified raw cache directory with thumbnails. All good.
But it did some weird stuff too:
1. All of the raw files were rotated to a really weird diagonal angle. I had to clear the rotation property on them all to get them back to normal.

2. All fields in the tag window (including the name field, the rotation field, and Genre etc.) were given the following value:
2312 x 1720 - 3.5 MB
Make :
Model:

Essentially, all tagging I'd done to files had been wiped (Even ratings).

3.Jpegs can see the camera make and exif info fine, but raw files have no information at all.

Quote
I've some other ideas on this stuff.  But it is all as time permits.
It's nice to see someone working on photo support. I really want to continue using MC to organise and view my photos. It's easier than Bridge to add custom tags, and easier to find photos using the panes etc.

I'm guessing that not reading the information correctly from raw files is just a bug.
I really hope that MC gets the ability to read those sidecar xmp files. That would solve all my problems regarding the "As shot" settings above, and would negate the need for jpeg/tiff cache files to be created.
And it seems that as well as Bridge, Adobe Lightroom, and Apple Aperture both use these files to hold info about photos, so it would be a good way of being able to move between programs to do different things with the photos.
Logged

DarkPenguin

  • Citizen of the Universe
  • *****
  • Posts: 1921
Re: Image related issues
« Reply #17 on: October 12, 2006, 03:24:16 pm »

Hope you had a library backup.  What type of files are these?  Is it possible to get one?
Logged

RobOK

  • Regular Member
  • Citizen of the Universe
  • *****
  • Posts: 615
  • long time MC user for PC, iPod and Tivo
Re: Image related issues
« Reply #18 on: October 12, 2006, 06:53:34 pm »

I believe this is a problem Marko and I have  mentioned.  If the file does not have a "MJMD" tag of some sort, any tagging you have done gets over written.  Since the RAW files cannot take a "MJMD" tag, this always happens.  I will look for my earlier post on this.

Here it is 

http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=35260.0
Logged

park

  • MC Beta Team
  • Citizen of the Universe
  • *****
  • Posts: 2353
  • I wish I had more to say!
Re: Image related issues
« Reply #19 on: October 12, 2006, 09:04:46 pm »

I can send you a file now problem if you give me your e-mail address. It is a .crw file; a raw file from the Canon G3 camera.
Logged

glynor

  • MC Beta Team
  • Citizen of the Universe
  • *****
  • Posts: 19608
Re: Image related issues
« Reply #20 on: October 12, 2006, 10:56:11 pm »

Again... an Image related thread I wish I had bothered to read earlier as I could have been some help.  Sorry, since I at work I quite often spend time supporting two photographers who know just enough about computers to cause havoc but not much more... It's tiring to look at it in my free time.

A camera RAW file is, by definition, the exact data that is "seen" by the camera's light sensor (either CMOS or CCD sensor depending on the model) without any modifications or interpretations done to it at all.   Its just the dump of the numbers off of the sensor, wrapped into a file format.  All software must do an interpretation of this data in order to turn the numbers in the RAW file into a picture on the screen full of red, green, and blue pixels.  There is no "standard" way to do this.  The method by which you do this interpretation is specific not only to the camera manufacturer, but also in many cases to specific models, or at least lines of models, and the software doing the interpretation!

Normally, when you take a digital photo with a camera in JPEG mode (or in some cases TIFF mode), it does this interpretation for you.  Unfortunately, some aspects of the interpretation are dependant on conditions that the camera can't effectively detect.  Lighting conditions, light colors, reflective colors and materials in the room, spectral highlights (the glints on glass and shiny surfaces), and a wide variety of other factors can "confuse" the simple software that runs many of these cameras.  They also typically do a round of digital sharpening, artifact removal, dust detection, and a bunch of other automated routines on the pictures.  This usually works pretty well, for your average daylight or indoor incandescent lit scene with a few people wearing normal clothes and not too much movement or shiny stuff in the frame.  You know, run-of-the-mill family vacation stuff.  Change too many of the "factors" though and you'll get all kinds of weird effects because the software is too dumb to know what to do.

Using the raw image data in a RAW file lets you avoid this.  But the image data must be interpreted.  Most camera raw import applications, such as Adobe's Photo Raw system, Apple's Aperture, or Photoshop Elements, will allow you to make adjustments similar to those that the camera would normally do on it's own (color shifts, exposure, sharpening, noise removal, etc) as part of the import procedure.  That way they give you the control, rather than a mindless camera body (or import SDK).  But what about "saving" this information so that next time you open it, the picture looks the same?  Because the software cannot save this data as part of the RAW image file (remember, it is by definition, made up of only the actual raw numbers that come off of the CMOS sensor), and you don't really want to modify your "digital negative" with these changes anyway (that way you can always go back and start over again from the real raw data), applications "save" this "interpretation" of the image in some other way.  Digital cameras are getting better and better at it all the time, and eventually the RAW file format will be unnecessary for all but the most detailed and unusual shots (or for photo manipulation purposes), but we aren't there yet.   ;)

Adobe's method of saving these settings is to use a separate "sidecar" (like the sidecar for a motorcycle) XMP document file.  XMP is an Adobe-designed (but open standard) method of saving metadata, such as image tags and camera information and all that good EXIF stuff and keywords and all that.  It is essentially a replacement for IPTC and EXIF, an ID3 tagging system for picture files.  Some image file formats (like TIFF and PSD -- and maybe PNG and JPEG, I haven't checked) can save these XMP "tags" directly inside the files, just like your Artist and Genre info gets saved inside your MP3 files.  Some file formats (like RAW and EPS) do not support this, so Adobe saves the XMP data in a separate "sidecar" file.  Other applications do it other ways (some cache the data in JPEG or TIFF form, some save the interpretation settings in a special proprietary database, etc).  Adobe wants very badly for XMP to become the standard for saving metadata in image file formats.  It looks like it's heading that way, but it's happening slowly.

So... The reason your colors are coming out shifted is because a) your Canon G3 is broken or setup incorrectly (maybe a bad white balance setting?), or b) because your images don't "conform" to what it thinks you "should" be taking, or c) your importing application isn't very good at importing them (the SDK is bad or something -- this is unlikely, as I use only Canon pro SLRs at work and they're fine).  Either way, using the RAW files and fixing them manually is probably the way to go (or figure out what setting or problem is causing the shift in the first place if it is fixable).  However, the RAW "digital negative" isn't really the way to save or trade the file around between people or different applications, because each app is going to interpret the raw data in it's own way.  Its good to save the RAW file, for if you ever change your mind or come up with a better way to interpret the data, but if you want to "save" your final image, you're best doing so in a "rendered format" such as a TIFF file (which is lossless).  JPEG would also work, but there is of course image degradation from that format because its a  lossy compression scheme.

Now... all that being said... Do I think it would be cool if MC could read XMP data?  Absolutely!  I'd be ecstatic, because all of my 60,000 images at work are keyworded and tagged using XMP and it'd be great if MC could read and write to those tags.  I'd probably seriously consider abandoning using Extensis Portfolio to manage them (and if only there were an OSX version of MC).  Plus, then I could use a real, powerful RAW image converter (like Adobe Photoshop's Camera RAW tool) and see the results immediately in MC.  Life would be good indeed.

Hopefully this extremely long rant explains a little bit about what's going on for you!  If you have any questions, just ask... I'll try to force myself to pay attention!   ;D   ::)
Logged
"Some cultures are defined by their relationship to cheese."

Visit me on the Interweb Thingie: http://glynor.com/

DarkPenguin

  • Citizen of the Universe
  • *****
  • Posts: 1921
Re: Image related issues
« Reply #21 on: October 13, 2006, 03:01:51 pm »

I can send you a file now problem if you give me your e-mail address. It is a .crw file; a raw file from the Canon G3 camera.

tom @ jriver . com
Logged

park

  • MC Beta Team
  • Citizen of the Universe
  • *****
  • Posts: 2353
  • I wish I had more to say!
Re: Image related issues
« Reply #22 on: October 15, 2006, 11:23:01 pm »

Thanks for all the info glynor. I just about got to that level of understanding through my own research the last couple of weeks, trying to figure out why my pics all looked so bad.

Your solution is sensible. I just dont want to have to make and organize duplicates of everything. Especially considering any changes i made to a raw file in bridge would mean re-exporting/overwriting the existing jpeg and then remembering to do a "Update file from tags" on each photo that i re-exported.

The MC team are almost there with the whole cache folder thing. Feasibly I could export each raw file as a jpeg that overwrites the jpeg in MC's cache folder. A bit time consuming though, trying to find which jpeg corresponds to which raw file.

If MC could read the Adobe bridge .dat (and index file) cache, that would be one solution. Reading and writing to sidecar xmp files still seems to be the most flexible solution though, and would allow you to work with the same files in multiple programs.
Logged

glynor

  • MC Beta Team
  • Citizen of the Universe
  • *****
  • Posts: 19608
Re: Image related issues
« Reply #23 on: October 16, 2006, 12:25:10 am »

If MC could read the Adobe bridge .dat (and index file) cache, that would be one solution. Reading and writing to sidecar xmp files still seems to be the most flexible solution though, and would allow you to work with the same files in multiple programs.

I agree completely.

And it would have the added "side" benefit (which in many ways would really be a primary benefit instead) that MC would be able to exchange image file metadata (keywords, etc) with other applications that support XMP.  (This list is getting longer too, it now includes Extensis Portfolio, Graphic Converter X, Aperture, GIMP, etc, etc, in addition to Adobe's applications).
Logged
"Some cultures are defined by their relationship to cheese."

Visit me on the Interweb Thingie: http://glynor.com/

XyLoSeSaMe

  • Regular Member
  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 2
Re: Image related issues
« Reply #24 on: January 30, 2007, 12:27:17 am »

the files that always fail are CRW files

Did I miss the rotation-issue solution for Camera Raw files? I typically delete XMP info when archiving, and would rather not have to regenerate this from Bridge in order to rotate images correctly within MC. Was the solution to use the CRW cache and rotate the cache images, rather than the CRW file itself? Or am I just completely missing the boat?
Logged

park

  • MC Beta Team
  • Citizen of the Universe
  • *****
  • Posts: 2353
  • I wish I had more to say!
Re: Image related issues
« Reply #25 on: January 30, 2007, 12:39:58 am »

I think that the solution is to use the "Rotation" field in the tag window. "270" is usually good enough to make all my portrait shots stand up properly.

The rotate tool doesnt (last time ichecked anyway) work with camera raw files.
Logged

XyLoSeSaMe

  • Regular Member
  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 2
Re: Image related issues
« Reply #26 on: January 30, 2007, 12:44:39 am »

270 is the magic number. Thanks for steering me there; I should have read the posts more carefully...
Logged
Pages: [1]   Go Up