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Author Topic: Movie Metadata Directions  (Read 7463 times)

darichman

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Movie Metadata Directions
« on: April 10, 2009, 08:09:19 am »

Happy Easter everyone!

There's been some chatter about MC on the Personal Video Database forums about tighter integration of the two programs... specifically in the form of a plugin to get information from PVD into MC. ... I'm not sure PVD is in direct competition with MC - as of yet MC does not offer any mechanism of information retrieval for video content (sorry, web links don't count!)

First of all, for those who don't know, PVD is a freeware movie database tool which can grab movie info from many popular websites (including IMDb and AMG). It is highly customisable in terms of import and export templates and you can map info to custom fields. The database is also relational, allowing navigation of a people database (via roles, works etc) as well as the film/television database - but that's a whole other topic.

Why is this of interest to J River? Well I guess it all depends on where we're going with videos... There have been some exciting changes recently in the area of new default video metadata fields and the prospect of a new file info display panel (please make it customisable!)... The logical question that follows is where does this information come from to (a) populate the fields and (b) fill up the pretty display.

So I have a few questions, both as an interested/selfish user and an uninterested/altruistic beta tester ;)
1. Does J River have any of its own plans for data retrieval?
2. If the answer to 1. is "Yes" will this be in the form of user submitted content a la YaDB, or will it be in partnership with a third party data provider.
3. If the answer to 1. is "No" would J River consider supporting/partnering or actively promoting tighter integration with other programs which fulfil 1., like PVD?

Integration and complementarity here could be beneficial as
a) it means less work for J River (the lookup side of things is taken care by the good folks over at PVD)
b) it allows pseudo-legitimate import of data from proprietary sources (like AMG) without J River directly providing such services. Import templates are generally provided by the user.

I have been using MC and PVD in combination for several months now and the information obtained from PVD works very nicely when imported into MC (browsing by years, directors, genres, themes, moods etc).

Just some thoughts...

PVD Forum Thread http://www.videodb.info/forum_en/index.php?topic=1254.0
and here: http://www.videodb.info/forum_en/index.php?topic=1238.msg4490#msg4490
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JimH

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Re: Movie Metadata Directions
« Reply #1 on: April 10, 2009, 09:24:57 am »

Would it surprise you if I said we're not sure where we're going?  ;)

We have implemented rudimentary support for the My Movies database.  I hope we'll be able to extend this.

One problem with PVD (and probably others) is that the original source of the metadata isn't theirs.  It's a gray area.


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hit_ny

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Re: Movie Metadata Directions
« Reply #2 on: April 10, 2009, 11:12:37 am »

I have been using MC and PVD in combination for several months now and the information obtained from PVD works very nicely when imported into MC (browsing by years, directors, genres, themes, moods etc).

This is the same pattern in the audio arena as well.

It's the best way to do it. Let someone else grab it and then import.
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Daydream

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Re: Movie Metadata Directions
« Reply #3 on: April 10, 2009, 01:52:09 pm »

Would it surprise you if I said we're not sure where we're going?  ;)
Mmm, no. :) But you guys opened the Pandora's box with the other thread [ Video Metadata ], which in retrospect (considering how easy you asked the question about what's needed and the massive response spreading from new fields required to changes of the interface), maybe was not the perfect approach.

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One problem with PVD (and probably others) is that the original source of the metadata isn't theirs.  It's a gray area.
May I point that we don't have the fields in the first place, so this kind of massive import from whatever the source is not exactly there yet (for a reason?). Is it a problem of adding 50 fields in one go instead of 5-now, 5-later, etc? I admit I might not have the full perspective on the issue, in the long run it may require to commit more resources than initially planned.

From a different angle, can you comment on any possibilities of all this video metadata thing? Will the solution eventually come from JRiver, or will there be only enough work done on it to enable third party plugins, or something else...? I mean if I put together - this is all highly theoretical, has to do with my questions here - a piece of software that would import everything and the kitchen sink from I don't know how many external sources, and write stuff to the MC database, including a zillion of custom fields 'cause they're not there now, will my efforts be in vain, after some unpredictable official decision from JRiver?

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JimH

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Re: Movie Metadata Directions
« Reply #4 on: April 10, 2009, 02:06:15 pm »

Some new fields have been added.  I'm not sure how many yet, but this might help show where things are going.

You probably know that you can add fields yourself.
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rick.ca

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Re: Movie Metadata Directions
« Reply #5 on: April 10, 2009, 04:13:07 pm »

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One problem with PVD (and probably others) is that the original source of the metadata isn't theirs.  It's a gray area.

If you consider this as a means of providing your customers an automatic feed for video metadata, then it's a grey area—as in approaching the legal "dark side." But the suggestion here is to simply facilitate the importation of data users have collected on their own. There is no grey in the personal use of information publicly available on the web. Users may not only read it, they may copy it, save it in a file, or collect it in a database—as long as it's all for personal use.

As its name implies, this is what PVD is for. It's not for users who have no other interest but to "make metadata appear" in their media manager. It's for users who want to collect video information. It does automate the process—and some sources may object to that—but there is nothing "improper" about a user employing these techniques to maintain their personal database. If the source doesn't feel this fits the intended purpose of their site and/or doesn't want to support the resulting traffic, they may (and some do) block this kind of bot use.

So, integration for purpose of making information in a personal database available to MC is fine. As a MC and PVD user, I would very much like to see this happen. Integration for the purpose of using PVD as an indirect means to provide MC users with an automatic feed of metadata is not. I'm not at all concerned about this possibility, because I know it's not going to work. While PVD does a good job of managing the process of collecting information from a variety of sources, it's too complicated to expect the process to be managed directly from MC through any form of integration. The only viable option is to use PVD to collect and manage video information, and restrict "integration" to the mapping of PVD fields to MC fields and the importing of the data. I expect the latter could be done by connecting directly to PVD's Firebird database and could be handled in a manner similar to MC's other "auto-import" functions.

Avoiding that "grey area" leaves J River with two approaches to facilitating video metadata. One is to simply provide the information using a commercial service like AMG. This would have a cost, but it would provide good coverage, consistency and quality of information. Many users would be very happy with such a hassle-free solution. Unfortunately, it would not satisfy those of us who have made a hobby out of collecting video data, who need data for non-mainstream video, who are not English-speaking, or who simply prefer a different source. Integration with other applications like PVD is a solution for all of these needs. I think J River should consider providing both. If necessary, an additional fee could be charged for the "data feed" solution. Those for whom that doesn't work—because of cost, content, coverage, flexibility or language—should have some sort of "do-it-yourself" option.

My significant commitment to PVD makes me hopelessly biased, but it's still easy for me to say this: It would not be wise for J River to associated itself too closely with any one such application. PVD is a one-man operation, so development and support could end at any time (although in today's economic environment, this is probably a meaningless distinction). Supporting one may appear to exclude others. Although PVD is clearly the best choice for me, there are valid reasons for others to choose differently.

Perhaps the best approach would be to take the lead in establishing a generalized approach to integration with other applications for the purpose of importing metadata. While the nature of the integration required depends on the source, there is much that is or should be common to all. For example: a configuration interface for the mapping of the external source fields to compatible MC fields (and the ability to create custom fields on-the-fly); conversion of data to the format required by MC (e.g., dates, times, ratings); the actual writing of the data to the MC database. I'm not a technical person, so I don't know exactly what form the solution would take. I suppose it could be a base of code a user/programmer would complete for the creation of a plugin for connecting to a specific source. Or it might be an integral part of MC that relies on configuration data provided by a user, user/programmer or third-party developer to define how it connects to an external database or data file exported by the other application. It might even be a framework that incorporates the commercial source (e.g. AMG) solution.
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rick.ca

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Re: Movie Metadata Directions
« Reply #6 on: April 10, 2009, 04:51:44 pm »

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...will my efforts be in vain, after some unpredictable official decision from JRiver?

As far as I can tell, this issue has absolutely nothing to do with the availability of fields designated for video metadata. Standard fields are only provided for convenience. Users may add any number of additional fields of any type, and these fields will be functionally identical to standard fields. There is some clarification to this question in New default video database fields... as well as Video metadata fields. The case has been made for a new ordered list field to handle credits, but other than that, there doesn't seem to be anything further necessary for handling video metadata—short of providing darichman with his long-awaited relational database, that is. ;D

BTW, if there is some reason why it's not practical or feasible for an ordered list field to be provided, there is a workaround. Assuming a source provides an ordered list of credits (e.g., a list of actors and their roles, in credits order), and import routine could translate this into two regular list fields—one with just [name] and one with "#. [name] - [role]." One would allow actors to be searched and sorted in the usual manner, the second would provide for the display of ordered credits.
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Daydream

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Re: Movie Metadata Directions
« Reply #7 on: April 10, 2009, 05:18:14 pm »

As far as I can tell, this issue has absolutely nothing to do with the availability of fields designated for video metadata.
It has to do with exactly that. You never got an answer to your question why some fields are locked and others aren't. I didn't got one regarding what happens if new stock fields are introduced and will collide in some way with the custom ones I can set. I'm simply trying to avoid any future trouble by spearheading an idea my way, just to find out that there is or will be an official way (which will probably work better).
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rick.ca

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Re: Movie Metadata Directions
« Reply #8 on: April 10, 2009, 05:43:50 pm »

Sorry, Daydream. I didn't mean to imply open questions raised by you (or me!) are irrelevant. I just meant I don't see any absolute impediment to importing whatever information a user wants to import. You question about the possibility of future standard fields conflicting with custom fields is a good one. But at the very worst, this would require renaming the custom field (or copying it to a new field and deleting the original). I would like to think, however, this possibility is somehow already taken care of—maybe as part of a database conversion routine for opening databases created by previous versions. As I have already said elsewhere, I don't understand why additional fields provided just for user convenience have to be locked—so they become an inconvenience! ::)
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leezer3

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Re: Movie Metadata Directions
« Reply #9 on: April 10, 2009, 05:48:20 pm »

there doesn't seem to be anything further necessary for handling video metadata—short of providing darichman with his long-awaited relational database, that is. ;D

Oi, add me to that list too  :D

Back somewhat onto topic, the one thing we currently lack is an ability to associate metadata with concepts above the file level. I've been advocating adding artist images and additional images per file for a while now. Additionally, we need a way of displaying this nicely- My movies viewscheme works down from the basic Genre (Action etc.) to the Series (Collections of related films. May either be 'proper' series, or simply similar stuff), and finally to Title. I'd like to be able to add specific metadata for each of these levels.

With regards to auto-display/ import, I'm strongly against any inflexible solution. Everything I have is tagged in a highly individual way and I can really do without 'clever' programming interfering. The ability to set precisely which fields are displayed and how is very important to me- None of the fields from the image JimH posted earlier are of any interest to me other than director (Even then, this is secondary; There's plenty of other stuff I'd rather have in its place)
A scrollbar would also be useful to scroll through longer descriptions etc., although I don't know how this would impact on a touchscreen based setup.

Cheers

-Leezer-
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darichman

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Re: Movie Metadata Directions
« Reply #10 on: April 10, 2009, 08:29:18 pm »

I think if the user has already obtained the data independently of MC (through PVD, MyMovies etc) then MC has nothing to worry about. You already allow us to import music or videos from any source - bet you didn't know some of those xvid files on CasualUser28's hard drive aren't legitimately obtained!! I'm certainly no lawyer, but that is my understanding.

From the other side of things, where do things stand between J River and other data providers out there? There were talks of licensing for music quite a while ago. Are costs in this area reasonable? Commercial or per-user?

You never got an answer to your question why some fields are locked and others aren't. I didn't got one regarding what happens if new stock fields are introduced and will collide in some way with the custom ones I can set.

I'm strongly against any inflexible solution. Everything I have is tagged in a highly individual way and I can really do without 'clever' programming interfering. The ability to set precisely which fields are displayed and how is very important to me

I do agree, but J River has to accommodate both the new user and the casual user who will not have the time or the inclination to spend the time setting things up the way some of us do. I think it is very important to have default templates (in terms of fields available and display templates). Having said that, like you I probably have no use for many of them... It is an important and difficult task (but one I'm sure J River is up to) to cater for both groups. Personally I think all default fields should be completely open for editing (even if you have to bombard us with big flashing red capital letter disclaimers). I've had a few custom fields that I or others have recommended as default fields now become uneditible because of this :P Yes, we can change the field name but it's not ideal...

Back somewhat onto topic, the one thing we currently lack is an ability to associate metadata with concepts above the file level.

Yes, this is a great point and one that is certainly necessary to deal intelligently with syndicated video content / series.. When you have a TV series for example, do I tag [Synopsis] using the Show synopsis, the series synopsis or the episode synopsis. It can get quite messy very quickly with multiple fields for each of these individual purposes. There are many fields which might benefit from treatment in this area. Instead of having files and these files having fields with particular values.... it might be possible to have values existing independently of files, and then assigning files to membership of these values. eg [Show] = Star Trek , [Season] = Star Trek S2, [Episode] = 02. Episode Name etc

Similarly, I have a [Movie] field. If I import all this metadata, and then get files which also logically belong to this movie (trailer, soundtrack, poster, script, sheet music, special features etc). It would be nice to assign membership to that movie and have MC inherit the relevant movie data. This would allow a global approach to a film database as it ties in all possible associations a movie might have in the database. This also implies that Field values might be created without associated files. Naturally the biggest limitation here is developing the infrastructure for database and navigation.

Other fields which may benefit: [Artist] and [Album] in music, [Movie] and [Series] in video, [People] in photos. I'm sure there could be others.
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rick.ca

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Re: Movie Metadata Directions
« Reply #11 on: April 10, 2009, 08:44:55 pm »

Now that I'm a committed movie database user, I've somewhat let go of the dream MC can handle all my needs for all my media. I've come to appreciate the value of a true relational database for managing movies and their relation to people. I imagine some music lovers have the same interest, and they probably find a relational database (and probably just using like AllMusic) is much more effective in providing biographical information for artists and relating them to their works. While further capabilities are always welcome, I'm happy to let MC restrict itself to the function of media management. In my mind, that means managing any and all data directly related to a media item, but not going any further than that. For example, I would like to be able to display the people related to a movie, but I don't expect to be able to see their bio, photo or filmography. Similarly, there are many things I can do in MC by searching, filtering and sorting the movie metadata, but I don't expect it to match the utility or convenience of the same functions in PVD.

Sometimes I wonder if MC really needs to be so tightly designed around the existence of a media file. It seems to me there are many uses for "information" records that are not associated with any file. They would be associated with other file-based records based on common metadata. If such a thing were "allowed," you would be able to create a parent record for a series—properly associated with episode records/files by designating it season 0, episode 0. Also, I'm a movie information collector, not a movie media collector. The population of movies I'm interested in are those I've seen, and those I may want to see. Most of those don't exist as media I currently own. So I have to "trick" MC into creating these records by creating dummy files, and then being careful not to allow MC to scan them and find out they're dummies. :P

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I'm strongly against any inflexible solution.

I assume you're thinking of the Theater View presentation of video information. I think there needs to be some sort of default view that works for those who don't want to fuss with such things. I would hope that default could then be configured—perhaps within limits necessary so that configuration is not hopelessly complicated. I don't mind submitting to some logical structure (e.g., summary, details and credits "pages" that are somewhat fixed in form and/or function), as long as I get some reasonable choice as to what fields get placed where.
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JimH

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Re: Movie Metadata Directions
« Reply #12 on: April 10, 2009, 09:40:14 pm »

I think there needs to be some sort of default view that works for those who don't want to fuss with such things. I would hope that default could then be configured—perhaps within limits ...
That's more or less what I think, too.
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JimH

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Re: Movie Metadata Directions
« Reply #13 on: April 11, 2009, 07:11:07 am »

I split as much of the Relational Database discussion as I could.  It didn't divide cleanly.
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rick.ca

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Re: Movie Metadata Directions
« Reply #14 on: April 11, 2009, 04:20:23 pm »

And now that we have our topic back... ;)

Would it surprise you if I said we're not sure where we're going?  ;)

I appreciate you're not sure where you're going—but if you did, we'd be talking about that. Is this discussion helpful? Do you have any thoughts or concerns about the ideas that have been expressed?

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raldo

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Re: Movie Metadata Directions
« Reply #15 on: April 11, 2009, 04:35:27 pm »

I completely understand that JRiver is pondering the issues of metadata ownership/copyright. It's a difficult line to balance.

However, from the recent discussions on sources for movie metadata, I think it's safe to say that the opportunities for obtaining such data are already there. I noticed that JRiver has implemented code for xml import from MyMovies, and that a user already has provided code for pruning xml import from that application.

Also, there are methods for importing data from PVD, since PVD can generate MC style playlists (threads on this can be found in the MC forum and also in the PVD forums, http://www.videodb.info/forum_en/index.php?action=forum )

I believe that the single most important thing now missing in MC is a proper (configurable) display for movie metadata, especially in theater view.

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raldo

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Re: Movie Metadata Directions
« Reply #16 on: April 11, 2009, 04:37:26 pm »

In line with my previous post, here's a screenshot of a PVD metadata import plugin I am developing for MC.

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JimH

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Re: Movie Metadata Directions
« Reply #17 on: April 11, 2009, 05:02:22 pm »

I believe that the single most important thing now missing in MC is a proper (configurable) display for movie metadata, especially in theater view.
We're giving it some thought.
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rick.ca

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Re: Movie Metadata Directions
« Reply #18 on: April 11, 2009, 05:16:47 pm »

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It's a difficult line to balance.

I agree—which is why I recommend they stay away from the "line." Contract with a data provider and/or facilitate the use of data collected by users for their personal use. Stay away from even the appearance of providing for the direct use of third-party data in violation of copyright.

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JRiver has implemented code for xml import from MyMovies

This is a somewhat different situation. My Movies data source is it's own user-contributed database, and they seem to have reasonable safeguards to ensure the contributions do not violate copyright. Then, My Movies has no basis for being concerned about it's own users using the same data in MC.

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I believe that the single most important thing now missing in MC is a proper (configurable) display for movie metadata, especially in theater view.

I agree completely, but it's a little beyond the scope of this topic. Besides, it seems clear J River has listened, and is hard at work on something along these lines.

Quote
In line with my previous post, here's a screenshot of a PVD metadata import plugin I am developing for MC.

This looks very promising! Are you close to a "launch"? A beta, perhaps? If so, you should start a new topic about that. What would be relevant to this discussion, however, is this question: In creating this plugin for PVD, do you see any opportunity for a generalized approach to creating such plugins for a variety of different sources? Or is the design too dependent on the architecture of the source?
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JimH

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Re: Movie Metadata Directions
« Reply #19 on: April 11, 2009, 05:30:34 pm »

...do you see any opportunity for a generalized approach to creating such plugins for a variety of different sources? Or is the design too dependent on the architecture of the source?
One way to do that would be to write to an xml file that MC could read.  The old sidecar idea.

MC might define the fields it can handle in a single xml file in Program Files/.../Data/ or similar.
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rick.ca

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Re: Movie Metadata Directions
« Reply #20 on: April 11, 2009, 05:44:09 pm »

We're giving it some thought.

This layout might work for music and images, but video information is going to demand more screen space. Perhaps the selection thumbnails can be smaller and limited to one column. I was thinking of an Info Page rather than an Info Panel, but I can see how this provides the means to "scroll through" the detailed information for multiple videos. There's not much point in doing so, however, unless a lot more of the detailed information is showing. And if the "Expand" command I see in one of the shots means the fields are collapsible, I think that's a great idea. I find that works very well in PVD for handling the data which varies considerably in amount (e.g., actors, descriptions).
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raldo

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Re: Movie Metadata Directions
« Reply #21 on: April 11, 2009, 05:50:48 pm »


This looks very promising! Are you close to a "launch"? A beta, perhaps? If so, you should start a new topic about that. What would be relevant to this discussion, however, is this question: In creating this plugin for PVD, do you see any opportunity for a generalized approach to creating such plugins for a variety of different sources? Or is the design too dependent on the architecture of the source?

Well, the generalized approach on the MC side is already there in the form of plugins :) . On the source side, you're begging the question :).

There is one thing missing in MC though: The ability for plugins to insert their own menu items (context right click, theater view). I've found a way around this, but it's cumbersome to set up and will probably (sadly) "raise the entry level" of the plugin.

I'm pretty close to a launch. I've solved the most difficult issues, now the tedious last 5% remains...
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rick.ca

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Re: Movie Metadata Directions
« Reply #22 on: April 11, 2009, 06:03:22 pm »

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I'm pretty close to a launch. I've solved the most difficult issues, now the tedious last 5% remains...

Good news! If you need any help beta testing, I suggest you yank darichman out of the YARB Convention. The guy's brilliant, yet so easily distracted. ;D
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raldo

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Re: Movie Metadata Directions
« Reply #23 on: April 11, 2009, 06:11:42 pm »

Good news! If you need any help beta testing, I suggest you yank darichman out of the YARB Convention. The guy's brilliant, yet so easily distracted. ;D

Well, "tedious" implies "Time consuming",

In the meantime, I have a challenge for you: can you compose an sql statement to generate your "Credits" field data?! The result of the statement must be one column, several rows. Download Firebird Maestro and get to it!
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rick.ca

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Re: Movie Metadata Directions
« Reply #24 on: April 11, 2009, 07:04:35 pm »

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In the meantime, I have a challenge for you...

JimH doesn't have the power to do this: Moved to pm at PVD Forum. ;)
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darichman

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Re: Movie Metadata Directions
« Reply #25 on: April 12, 2009, 01:13:15 am »

Raldo - your plugin looks a lot further along than I thought... nice work :) Contrary to Rick's kind comments I have no knowledge of coding/scripting but would be happy to test anything you come up with.

This layout might work for music and images, but video information is going to demand more screen space. .... I was thinking of an Info Page rather than an Info Panel, but I can see how this provides the means to "scroll through" the detailed information for multiple videos.

Yes, I very much agree with these points. The file info panel idea is a good one and will work well while scrolling through file lists. For views with smaller numbers of files it might be more effective to adopt a "coverflow" approach: The whole display can be dedicated to the metadata for a single movie (including a poster) and left/right/navigation keys can move between movies. So, only one movie is displayed at a time, but the user can easily see a nice large poster and any information that they specify.

I also think fields need to be collapsable once they reach a certain length, just to keep things tidy. PVD and some other programs do this nicely.
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Daydream

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Re: Movie Metadata Directions
« Reply #26 on: April 12, 2009, 02:17:28 am »

Nice plugin, Raldo! Let's just hope that there's more than 25 of us that know SQL and the rest won't run away scared :) :)
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)p(

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Re: Movie Metadata Directions
« Reply #27 on: April 12, 2009, 03:41:40 am »

One way to do that would be to write to an xml file that MC could read.  The old sidecar idea.

MC might define the fields it can handle in a single xml file in Program Files/.../Data/ or similar.


+1 for the sidecar read/write. Ie mc also writes any tag changes to it just like it would do if the tag info was stored in the file. I could then monitor these files and sync my movie database with them.

peter
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raldo

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Re: Movie Metadata Directions
« Reply #28 on: April 12, 2009, 05:36:55 am »

Nice plugin, Raldo! Let's just hope that there's more than 25 of us that know SQL and the rest won't run away scared :) :)
I see your point. Hopefully it'll just work after you've installed it...

The good thing about using sql like this is that you're not dependent on hard coding results on either side (MC, PVD). It means that if you're proficient in sql you can basically generate the result you want.

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