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[MusicHawk]

At the top of MC, when playing a track, a Spectrum Analyzer is displayed (or not, by right-clicking).

The Spectrum Analyzer display is actually two, showing left and right audio channels at the extreme left and right sides of the track info window.

The right channel display seems to work normally, low frequencies on left, high frequencies are right.

BUT.. In my tests, the left channel display seems to be REVERSED, so low frequencies are on the right of the spectrum. If so, this is unexpected, unnatural, and given MC's new focus on advanced audio, WRONG. Where else in the credible universe of audio monitoring is this done? For instance, MC's large, colorful Spectrum Analyzer that can be displayed as an MC visualization does it correctly.

To be of actual value, the left and right channels should be displayed side-by-side as on any audio console, not split by a bunch of text. And they should be normal/standard/consistent, left-to-right is low-to-high frequencies.

[Matt]

To be of actual value, the left and right channels should be displayed side-by-side as on any audio console, not split by a bunch of text. And they should be normal/standard/consistent, left-to-right is low-to-high frequencies.

The bars at the top are for decoration, not for scientific analysis.

There are some really nice VST DSPs that Media Center supports if you're looking for physics-grade visualization.  

There are also some built-in spectrum analyzer visualizations that can be run fullscreen and may be to your liking.

[MusicHawk]

Thanks for explaining.

I use high quality level/spectrum plugs, but the "meters" at the top are quite handy when working with tracks without having to open a visualization and sacrifice screen space to it. Given MC's push to ever-higher quality audio, I think it should have high quality audio metering too, and not just via separate visualizations. (And it would be cool to be able to activate audio test tones and video color bars.)

Even if intended as "decoration" -- bouncing bars -- why not make them "normal" too? If just seems really odd that MC does something "wrong" for no evident user benefit. Could there be an alternate standard audio display for the top area? And/or maybe a dockable window as provided in Sony Sound Forge and similar?

[rick.ca]

I use high quality level/spectrum plugs, but the "meters" at the top are quite handy when working with tracks without having to open a visualization and sacrifice screen space to it.

I don't get it. You want a trivial decoration replaced with something more "correct" because you don't want to open the appropriate tool or give it any screen space. That seems to narrow the scope for it being in any way "handy." I'm curious about what you would actually do with or get from this thing.

[Mr ChriZ]

Even if intended as "decoration" -- bouncing bars -- why not make them "normal" too? If just seems really odd that MC does something "wrong" for no evident user benefit. Could there be an alternate standard audio display for the top area? And/or maybe a dockable window as provided in Sony Sound Forge and similar?

Just an alternative point of view.  I like music to sound good, but I'm not what you'd call a serious audiophile.  I don't even have the wooden sound dampening volume nob on my amp, or the £100 a meter Denon Cat5 cable that purify's the zero's of my network files as they get passed through the network.

To about the same extent I have a love of visual things. I like the fact that the bouncy bars are symmetrical.
That said I've got a very wide screen now and struggle to see them both at the same time. 

[MusicHawk]

I'm curious about what you would actually do with or get from this thing.

I'm cataloging lots of old recordings, a mix of stereo, mono, and "rechanneled" to pseudo stereo. Accurate (even if tiny) meters are useful to spot whether channels are essentially identical, differ a bit in a consistent pattern indicating rechanneled, or are true stereo.

I know, a special need, and obviously I can and do use other meters and ways to do this. I just feel that MC's presentation of left and right channel spectrum is wrong, because there's a standard way this is done -- even elsewhere in MC -- so why not do it that way in the most visible place too?

And I probably care "too much", more than many users because I'm a life-long audio professional, in radio, TV, recording studios, live shows, etc. In that world, an audio tool that arbitrarily reversed the spectrum would be laughed into the trash, and so would the brand/company that produced it. Pros have to totally trust their tools.

Another thread discusses how to promote MC, to spread the word on its superior attributes. Will it be helpful to say the default audio display is non-standard "decoration", but otherwise it's an audiophile product? It seems like wearing brown shoes with a black tuxedo...

[HTPC4ME]

i love bouncy things and lots of colored lights... i'm with ya MusicHawk

[gappie]

Just an alternative point of view.  I like music to sound good, but I'm not what you'd call a serious audiophile.  I don't even have the wooden sound dampening volume nob on my amp, or the £100 a meter Denon Cat5 cable that purify's the zero's of my network files as they get passed through the network.

To about the same extent I have a love of visual things. I like the fact that the bouncy bars are symmetrical.
That said I've got a very wide screen now and struggle to see them both at the same time. 

im actually also with musichawk on this. im not an audiophile either. but now i only see the bars as intended, decoration. and when i really look to the left channel i find it confusing, it shows something im not hearing.. 

 
gab

[HTPC4ME]

me too. he opened a can of worms. and i'm actually quite upset with myself i didnt notice it. lol

[MusicHawk]

i'm actually quite upset with myself i didnt notice it

I didn't notice it either for a long time (years, actually), just when I got into the current project and after struggling to get a "better" meter to display while simultaneously scrolling views and tagging like crazy, I realized the behavior, so posted about it.

If there was a better level/spectrum left-right meter that could be displayed "on top", or floated/docked, even while doing anything/everything else, then this laborious debate wouldn't have arisen because the decoration could be ignored/hidden ... though I can't come up with a justification for it being non-standard/"wrong". Isn't it similar, say, to if MC sometimes showed cover images reversed?

[gappie]

Isn't it similar, say, to if MC sometimes showed cover images reversed?

or in an unnatural angle? 

If there was a better level/spectrum left-right meter that could be displayed "on top", or floated/docked, even while doing anything/everything else, then this laborious debate wouldn't have arisen because the decoration could be ignored/hidden

you could use the spectrum analyse viz and hit ctrl 6.. this is the attached view and can be floating and on top..

 
gab

[newsposter]

Could this be resolved by someone coming up with a 'pro' skin with accurate and multiple channel meters?

[MusicHawk]

Detach Display (Ctrl+5) is what I'm doing. Of course, a newbie must first locate and activate this visualization, then discover how to detach and float it. But.. this is THE playback visualization, so using it for an audio meter means "losing" whatever other display might be desired -- not family friendly.

I'm suggesting that there be a more direct, obvious way for MC to display meters that are more than decoration, and that can co-exist with whatever visualization is desired for routine playback.

[glynor]

And I probably care "too much", more than many users because I'm a life-long audio professional, in radio, TV, recording studios, live shows, etc. In that world, an audio tool that arbitrarily reversed the spectrum would be laughed into the trash, and so would the brand/company that produced it. Pros have to totally trust their tools.

I understand where you're coming from.  However... There is a HUGE difference between user expectations for a professional application in the $300-$600 price range (or more), and a pro-sumer application at a $50 price point.  If I'm evaluating a non-linear editor or other similar video application, there are absolutely certain "superficial" flaws that might cause me to completely eliminate a "pro" application from consideration, by helping me to make a value judgment about the quality put into the rest of the application.

However, those instincts would absolutely be tempered by an evaluation of the target market for a product and the price of the product.  I would not throw away an otherwise useful application for a superficial flaw, if the flaw made sense in the overall context of the market for that product.

I regularly use cheap, free, and open source applications to accomplish all sorts of useful tasks in my post-production workflow.  They are not always perfect (hardly ever, frankly), but they are often valuable tools, and they are absolutely fine for what they are when you consider the goals of the products.  A perfect example would be MPEG Streamclip.  It is a wonderful little free video editor and converter.  It certainly isn't a pro-quality NLE, nor is it a pro-quality Encoder, or even a high-quality ripper.  But it is quite useful, and it is free.

I think the fact that MC is, at its root, a consumer-focused media player and organizer application does not take away from the usefulness of the application even in a pro environment.  Does it measure up compared to enterprise-level DAM systems like those by Cumulus and Feedroom?  No, not in many ways (though surprisingly well in many, many others).  But it is also priced at $50 per seat, as opposed to many thousands of dollars!

All that said... I gotta agree with Mr. Chriz.  I just don't care at all.  If you want a pro-quality analytic tool, they are available.

[JimH]

I guess that pretty much solidifies our amateur standing.

[rick.ca]

I'm cataloging lots of old recordings, a mix of stereo, mono, and "rechanneled" to pseudo stereo. Accurate (even if tiny) meters are useful to spot whether channels are essentially identical, differ a bit in a consistent pattern indicating rechanneled, or are true stereo.

This kind of debate is usually colourful, long and no action results from it. The reason for the question you're answering here is to identify a valid need that might be addressed. If the suggestion can be framed in a positive manner, it might at least become something worthy of consideration—if not of a higher priority.

So this sounds like a legitimate need, but I'm still not convinced—because you and others also say you didn't notice (for a long time) and/or don't care. Maybe that's for a variety of reasons—they're too far apart, too small and there are better tools available. If this can't be fixed because it's purpose as a "bouncy decoration" can't be reconciled with more functional/professional needs, perhaps it makes more sense to link the "decorations" to a more serious tool. I'm not sure exactly what the need is, but your answer and mention of visualizations suggest it may be restricted to momentary visual feedback. If so, that might be provided by a large, precise, professional visualization being displayed on mouse-over.

[Matt]

Maybe I should be embarrassed to say this, but I like spectrum analyzers that are mirrored with the highs on the outside.

I did a Google images search for "spectrum analyzer" and found several other examples with this type of layout.

I guess the world is full of amateurs

[raldo]

I'd say that the the spectrum is presented correctly as is.

"Don't be negative about negative frequency"

[gappie]

Detach Display (Ctrl+5) is what I'm doing.

your not using mc 15 then?

All that said... I gotta agree with Mr. Chriz.  I just don't care at all.  If you want a pro-quality analytic tool, they are available.

i also think it is not the end of the world, but it is not about pro or amateur. when i would want that my soundcard does have its tools realy nice pro tools included. its more that it is wrong. i can not think of a good example as a reference that would fit in your more video relate view on the world, but its like wearing glasses with +10 at one and -10 at the other side. but then.. i do more things with sound recording and stuff. a spectrum analyzer is just part of the deal, and one that is mirrored is like a wrong note. 

and i actually think it would still be cool. visually i mean..

 
gab

[rick.ca]

I'd say that the the spectrum is presented correctly as is.
"Don't be negative about negative frequency"

Excuse me! Not only colourful. Hopelessly esoteric.

[Alex B]

For free professional quality analysis I'd recommend Spectrum Lab.

I have used it for serious work and also for entertainment for years.

It is a pain to configure and with some audio devices you may need to install Virtual Audio Cable (not free) for creating a suitable audio interface, but its display features are probably second to none.


Click to enlarge.

Spectrum Lab: http://www.qsl.net/dl4yhf/spectra1.html
Virtual Audio Cable: http://software.muzychenko.net/eng/vac.html ($30, but less expensive than any compatible HW sound device)

[MusicHawk]

Yep, a pretty pointless debate if the "mistake" I cited is truly just trivial (if confusing to some) decoration.

But there is also a suggestion, and it would be nice to have: Give MC an optional Output Meter display. This could be done by allowing MC's Stereo Spectrum Analyzer (or other user choice of audio meter format) to be displayed, full-time (essentially like detaching the display) in a floatable and/or docked box --  SEPARATE from the playback visualization. Call it Monitor Display or Output Meter and promote it as another feature that shows MC is serious about media.

So, the user could still see the desired playback visualization -- whether track info or bouncing balls or light show or theater view -- but ALSO activate the separate Output Meter.

Potentially the Output Meter could go beyond audio, and be configured to show audio+video, video-only, photo gamma or other data, etc, whatever might be available as a VST DSP.

[raldo]

Excuse me! Not only colourful. Hopelessly esoteric.

True! let's get rid of the track info between the negative frequencies on the left and the positive frequencies on the right. Only then we'd have a correct frequency spectrum.

[Alex B]

Regarding VST spectrum analyzers, the free Blue Cat's FreqAnalyst would have nice features, but it doesn't work with MC. MC didn't even add it to the list when I tried it.

There is also a DirectX version of it. It is possible to add the DX version, but it doesn't work.

Are these plugins fundamentally incompatible with MC or would it be possible to fix the problem?

http://www.bluecataudio.com/Products/Product_FreqAnalyst/

[Matt]

Are these plugins fundamentally incompatible with MC or would it be possible to fix the problem?

Fixed in build 56 and later:
Fixed: VST plugins that exposed a standard DLLRegisterServer(...) function in addition to the standard VST plugin export would not install properly.

[Alex B]

Thanks. It works in the yet to be released build. I attached a sreenshot in which I am running the 32-bit Blue Cat FreqAnalyst VST plugin.

To make it perfect the plugin interface window would need to be detachable so that MC's DSP window could be closed or minimized.

In the second screenshot the floating plugin is actually running in WaveLab. I moved WaveLab away and left only the plugin interface on top of MC.

If you can't see the attached images log in to the forum.

[Alex B]

Detachability would be needed for any plugin interface that has real time displays or controls that are intended to be used constantly. Some of them are neat and small and keeping the DSP Studio window open for using them just doesn't seem right.

I'm cataloging lots of old recordings, a mix of stereo, mono, and "rechanneled" to pseudo stereo. Accurate (even if tiny) meters are useful to spot whether channels are essentially identical, differ a bit in a consistent pattern indicating rechanneled, or are true stereo.

You might like Robin Schmidt's free "Track Meter" VST plugin:

What is Track Meter?

Track Meter is a plugin to display the current level of a stereo input signal separately for the left, right, mid and side channels and also to display the cross-correlation between the two channels.

Adjusting the Meter’s Ballistics

Below the meters themselves, you find two sliders with which the rising and falling time constants of the meters can be adjusted. The two buttons ’VU’ and ’PPM’ will cause the time constants to be adjusted to the values specified by the ’volume unit’ and ’peak programme meter’ standard. These are defined as follows:
- Volume Unit: 300 ms rise time to reach 99 percent of final level and 300 ms fall time to decay to 1 percent of the initial level.
- Peak Programme Meter (BBC version): 10 ms rise time to reach 80 percent of the final level and 2.8 s to decay to a level 24 decibels below the initial level.

... after Matt has added the detach option

http://www.rs-met.com/

A screenshot is attached.

EDIT

Possibly you would like to keep the Blue Cat and Track Meter plugin interfaces visible simultaneously. It isn't currently possible.

[glynor]

I guess that pretty much solidifies our amateur standing.

I don't think so at all.  I'd definitely consider MC to be a pro-level tool in most ways (pro-sumer at the very least).

I was just making the point that you have to take the context of where a program is coming from.  MC is quite powerful and advanced, but is certainly coming from a consumer media jukebox perspective, not a Digidesign Pro Tools perspective, or a DaVinci Resolve perspective.

My point was that just because it's roots are in a consumer space, is no reason to rule it out for the many, many, many things that it really excels at.  Use the tool that is best for the job.