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[JadenKrosis]

Hi I have MC19 and am getting low level distortion in parts of some tracks, almost sounds like a subwoofer is trying to play in the background during quieter parts of a track such as when theres soft vocals and instruments playing.
Sounds like when someone blows into a microphone.
I have Windows Vista dual 32 bit, M2 Tech Young USB and a set of powered JBL speakers and sub. The noise isnt coming from the sub it coming from the left/rights.
I have tried various settings, right now I`m using Kernel streaming as recommended by M2 tech. I use internal volume any of the others such as application or system volume play at full blast and break my eardrums.
There is something strange when I look at DSP it says source is 44.1khz 16bit 2ch  but its enabled and processing  44.1khz 64bit 2 ch.
Dont know if that means anything.....

[mwillems]

Hi I have MC19 and am getting low level distortion in parts of some tracks, almost sounds like a subwoofer is trying to play in the background during quieter parts of a track such as when theres soft vocals and instruments playing.
Sounds like when someone blows into a microphone.
I have Windows Vista dual 32 bit, M2 Tech Young USB and a set of powered JBL speakers and sub. The noise isnt coming from the sub it coming from the left/rights.
I have tried various settings, right now I`m using Kernel streaming as recommended by M2 tech. I use internal volume any of the others such as application or system volume play at full blast and break my eardrums.
There is something strange when I look at DSP it says source is 44.1khz 16bit 2ch  but its enabled and processing  44.1khz 64bit 2 ch.
Dont know if that means anything.....

Welcome to the forums    The "64 bit" piece just refers to JRiver's internal audio path (which is 64-bit to keep things as clean as possible); I don't think that's what is giving you noise on the line.  

To help figure out what the noise might be, can you supply a little more info? Do you hear the noise when everything is on but no music is playing, or only during quiet parts of playback?  If you hear the noise and pause (or stop) playback; does the noise keep going or does it go away? You mentioned software volume, but does the noise stay the same volume when the hardware volumes on the powered speakers are adjusted, or does it vary with the hardware volume level?

[JadenKrosis]

I only hear it when theres music playing, and it seems to play along with the music as if its part of the music. It is especially noticeable with vocal recordings and during quiet passages. But it is gone as soon as the music is stopped.
When I turn up the volume it is still there but harder to hear.
Neither the speakers nor the dac have their own volume adjustment, so once I`m using JRiver my only adjustment is the main volume on the player itself.

[rayooo]

I've seen some kinds of strange things like this where various "computer noise" can crosstalk into the Analog portion of a DA converter.

Most famous one (for me) was where moving the mouse, caused a corresponding digital noise in the analog audio output. .. noise changed as mouse was moved faster or slower.

Not saying this is the case here, but the issue reminded me of such..   If you're still at a loss, maybe try a "ferrite core" type USB cable to DAC, moving the DAC away from the computer, and/or try powering the DAC from a different AC outlet... or maybe even install a ferrite core on the DAC's power inlet feed.

Good luck!

..oh, and since you only hear it with music playing...I'm just ASSuming the digital USB noise from the music, is cross-talking into the analog output.  again, utter guesswork on my part.

[JadenKrosis]

I`m using Audioquest Diamond usb which has quite a laundry list of shielding, protection etc. and the dac is approx 3 feet away.

[AndyU]

Try a different player like foobar or iTunes to see whether it's an MC problem or a pc problem. Sounds like some noise might be getting picked up - I had some really bad cheapo USB speakers on an old laptop which also had a wireless dongle for a mouse - made horrible noises if I moved the mouse, which stopped when I unplugged the dongle.

[mykillk]

It could be unclean power. Are your DAC & speakers powered by a quality surge protector? I have a feeling they are, considering the extremely high end USB cable you are using

More likely it's electromagnetic noise coming from somewhere. I'd give that a much more likelihood than a software issue, especially considering the volume of the noise does not seem to increase with MC's volume. Are the speaker cables themselves high quality? Make sure they are not touching any power cables because they can leak electromagnetic noise onto your speaker cables. It could even be something like WiFi or cell phone noise.

Seems to me that you're getting noise somewhere after the DAC sending the signal out. I'd focus on that segment of your setup. The speaker cables that come bundled with computer speaker systems are generally junk. Which JBL speakers do you have? Does the noise seem to come evenly out of both the left/right speakers or is one worse than the other?

[JadenKrosis]

I`ve been doing some more listening and found that the rumbling sound does get louder as I turn up the volume.

My cables are Audioquest Colorado XLR and Sky RCA interconnects. All the speakers are powered and their cords are Audioquest nrg`s.
Everything is plugged into an AudioMagic Stealth power conditioner which in turn is plugged into the wall with AudioMagic PowerMaster cord.
I`ve got everything separated so the cables and power cords arent touching.
The main speakers are JBL LSR6328P and the sub is JBL LSR6312SP.

[JadenKrosis]

I forgot to mention~ the dac can be plugged straight into the wall, into the power conditioner, or the optional Palmer battery power supply pack. I`ve powered the dac using all of these options and get the same result.

[mwillems]

I forgot to mention~ the dac can be plugged straight into the wall, into the power conditioner, or the optional Palmer battery power supply pack. I`ve powered the dac using all of these options and get the same result.

It sounds like it's not a power isolation issue (at least not an obvious one).  If it varies with volume and isn't present when the music isn't playing, you'll need to try to isolate which stage of the chain that is introducing it.  Have you tried:

1) Using a different audio player on your computer (i.e. WMP) to see if it has the same issue (I suspect it will, but it's worth it to rule JRiver out)  
2) Using a different computer as a source (do you have a laptop around you could try)?
3) Using an optical/conventional SPDIF connection to the DAC from the computer instead of USB?
4) Do you have another DAC (even the terrible one on the computer's motherboard) that you could wire up and test?

Unfortunately, the only way to hunt something like this down is to try swapping out components until you find the culprit.

One other thought: does it happen at the same place in the music every time, or does it appear at random?  Try replaying a section of music that you hear it in and see if it happens at the exact same moments.  If you're listening to music ripped from vinyl, there's a slim chance that what you're hearing is turntable rumble (i.e. is actually in your files).  It's a long shot, but I thought I'd mention it just in case

[JadenKrosis]

Yes the rumble/distortion happens at the same part of the music every time. All my audio files are either downloaded from HDTracks or ripped from CD but nothing comes from a vinyl rip. The sound is there whether playing the hi-rez downloads or cheap CD rips.
Some tracks do have it more than others.

I tried a Halide dac HD and got the same results. I tried different output settings with that dac and through direct sound the rumble is still there although very hard to hear it, with wasapi it becomes more audible. The Halide apparently cannot play in kernel streaming but the M2Tech can and with that dac set on kernel streaming the noise is very audible.
I dont have another pc to try, but I`ll try another player plus see what I can do as far as getting an optical/spdif connection.

[JimH]

Is it possible that one of your speakers is blown?

[daveca]

Congrats, you found the sort of problem that even drives engineers crazy...
"The background during quieter parts of a track such as when theres soft vocals and instruments playing."

That probably rules out accoustical coupling such as vibration to a USB connector.

If its a RF problem, thats the nastiest kind there is to troubleshoot.

Once I saw a laptop power cord that was too close to a mousepad that would move the cursor...

Separate cables. Disable one channel. Who knows...

There is no such thing as "shielding" except with respect to circuits inside the shield. Ground or stray currents can run on shields to bad places.
Ive seen grounding make RF noise worse.

Without building up static charges on your fingers, touch anything you can find, all the units, lay hands over cables.. might find a coincidence.

My laptop, on a spectrum analyser in SW, shows a heartbeat at 25 Hz about a one second rate, seems to coincide with the HDD activity light.

"Is it possible that one of your speakers is blown?"

If not, its not loud enough...!!!!!!!

Torn cone, loose wire from the motor coil to the cone , cone separated from the frame, fix any of those with glue.
Push the cone with your fingers and see if the wire that connects to the back of the cone is loose where it was glued on.

[JimH]

Disconnecting one speaker at a time might show something.

[JadenKrosis]

It would have to be both mains blown as the noise is coming from both of them. In a way it acts like blown speakers but as the music is turned up to a point the noise is not there anymore, or at least is not audible.
Not to mention I have not clipped them nor abused them, they do have warning lights and they`ve only ever been green here.
 
This started when I upgraded from MC17 to 19. I still have 17 but it now also does this when I use it but it isnt as noticeable on 17.
Funny thing about listening though is it might have always been there but I never noticed it before, but then when I DID notice it I always hear it and hear it more often since I am now listening more intently for it.

I wonder if some of my connections could be a culprit. Both of my dacs have only RCA outs but my sub accepts only XLR so I have a set of Cardas RCA to XLR adaptors plugged into the sub. The sub itself doesnt seem to have the rumble, it plays low tones that sound normal. Could it be that my connection from the dac to the sub is inherently flawed with the RCA to XLR adaptors set up?

There is one other thing too, there are open and unused XLR connections on the sub for running more satellite speakers. I`ve seen advertisements for plugs to cover these because they can cause stray RF or other dirty interference.
I figured that as snake oil but does anyone have another point of view on that?

[mykillk]

From what I can tell, it sounds like you have computer type speakers where the input goes into the sub, and then from the sub you have cables going to speakers?

If both your speakers are exhibiting the same manner of noise at the same volume, then I think that isolates it to the sub. It may be a source of noise (the wiring in subs can be quite shoddy unfortunately) that is being transmitted to the speakers.

As mentioned before, it would be very helpful to try another audio player and see if you get the same results. Windows Media Player, VLC, iTunes, anything. You said it's less noticeable on 17 than 19, which is a bit strange. I can't think of anything that might explain that other than having Adaptive Volume enabled on MC19 which can boost the noise floor.

As for the XLR plugs, they may be worth a try if you are indeed able to pinpoint the trouble to the sub. I have no experience with them myself so I can't say if they are a legitimate thing or not.

[JadenKrosis]

I`m listening through foobar right now and the same distorted tracks do not have the noise. I have switched back and forth between the 2 dacs I have here and its the same result.
Although this foobar player doesnt sound as nice as the MC players do, it is playing the tracks without that rumble.
My sub/sat speaker set up is actually a studio monitor rig which is very popular among mixing and recording engineers. It is very well regarded for its resolving ability, wide dynamics, ruler flat response, and completely without listener fatigue.

Should I try some more players and if so which ones?

[mwillems]

I`m listening through foobar right now and the same distorted tracks do not have the noise. I have switched back and forth between the 2 dacs I have here and its the same result.
Although this foobar player doesnt sound as nice as the MC players do, it is playing the tracks without that rumble.
My sub/sat speaker set up is actually a studio monitor rig which is very popular among mixing and recording engineers. It is very well regarded for its resolving ability, wide dynamics, ruler flat response, and completely without listener fatigue.

Should I try some more players and if so which ones?

I'd suggest giving windows media player a try as well just for an additional data point, but it's odd that you're getting a rumble with JRiver and not with Foobar.

Have you checked your DSP studio settings in JRiver?  Could you post a screen capture of your audio path in JRiver?

[JadenKrosis]

I`ll give Windows a try but I`ve been having problems getting that player to work. If there is any other player you could suggest.....

If DSP studio is what you`re referring too, the only thing I use there is the graphic equalizer.

[JimH]

WMP is a good test.  If you're having problems with it, that's not good.

[mykillk]

I`ll give Windows a try but I`ve been having problems getting that player to work. If there is any other player you could suggest.....

If DSP studio is what you`re referring too, the only thing I use there is the graphic equalizer.

And what do your equalizer settings look like?

Also, you mentioned that Foobar didn't sound as nice. Was it outputting via Directsound? You can select Directsound as the MC19 output also, see if that also eliminates the rumbling. If it does, that I would suggest fiddling with the buffer sizes on your WASAPI output options in MC19. I think some USB DACs need bigger buffer sizes than the default.

[Zhillsguy]

Unfortunately these issues are not only hard to troubleshoot, but hard to describe to others to begin with. I had a very low level "noise" happening with my laptop used as a music source to an external USB DAC (laptop>UCA 202>small Mackie mixer>pro crossover/amps). It ended up being a very weak ground loop, I was hearing electrical events (appliances, dimmers, etc.) elsewhere in the household at a very low level. In this case a 2-prong adapter on the laptop power brick was an acceptable solution.

Try physically disconnecting your subs or any other component's connections other than what is needed to listen to the mains. If it improves, continue troubleshooting in that direction.

Another issue I had when using outboard DAC's......go into Windows control panel / sound and disable ALL microphone and input devices. Only leave the device you are using for MC playback enabled. Before I did that, sometimes I would get some weird feedback and I noticed one of my sub drivers pulsating slowly at some low frequency.

Also, try turning off the MC equalizer.

Hope this helps.

[JadenKrosis]

Alright after many trials and tribulations I managed to get music from JRiver without distortion by turning off the equalizer. This is while using the Halide dac running on direct sound. No other adjustments or changes took away the rumble until I turned off the EQ.
I havent tried the M2Tech but I can say that is the dac I prefer running in Kernel streaming as that combo gives me the best sound.
Does this mean I cannot use the EQ?
I`ve attached a screenshot of the EQ settings last time I had it on today.

[mwillems]

Alright after many trials and tribulations I managed to get music from JRiver without distortion by turning off the equalizer. This is while using the Halide dac running on direct sound. No other adjustments or changes took away the rumble until I turned off the EQ.
I havent tried the M2Tech but I can say that is the dac I prefer running in Kernel streaming as that combo gives me the best sound.
Does this mean I cannot use the EQ?
I`ve attached a screenshot of the EQ settings last time I had it on today.

I don't think it means you can't use EQ, I think it's more likely that those specific EQ settings were creating the noise you heard.  

Those EQ settings are pretty extreme.  +3dB is twice the power, +10 dB is ten times the power.  For example, you're applying +7dB of boost at 60Hz. If your monitors are ported or vented (most small studio monitors are), and you're applying that kind of boost below their port tuning frequency the speakers will just flap around creating turbulence (chuffing) and distortion because they're completely unloaded below the port frequency.  

You cannot use EQ to get more low bass out of a ported speaker, and most speakers have a protective high-pass built in around the port frequency. By adding boost you're effectively "defeating" that safety feature, and if you try to just pour on the boost, you stand a chance of wrecking the speaker from overexcursion (the voice coil will ram right into the magnet or pole piece making the infamous "crack of doom"). If they are vented and the port is tuned at or above 60Hz, that might well account for the distortion and "blowing on the microphone" sound.  Even if your monitors are sealed, that much boost is likely to create a strange tonal balance, and with the addition of the "pre-amp" you may well be driving your DAC into clipping at higher volumes.  

I would suggest trying more conservative EQ settings (no more than +3dB for any given band). If your speaker is vented, I'd also suggest looking up what the port tuning frequency is, and not applying any boost below that frequency.

[Sheriff1972]

wow - some extreme EQ going on.

I guess that ruler flat response of your sub sat was not to your taste! :-)

Glad you got it fixed in the end

[JimH]

Good it's solved.  Thanks very much to everyone who helped.

[JadenKrosis]

Yes those settings were made a long time ago while experimenting with my new MC17 player and then I forgot all about them until mykillk asked about it.
Thanks for the help everyone.

[mojave]

The main issue is the 6.2 dB boost done in the preamp section of the Equalizer DSP. Whenever you perform any digital gain through equalization, you must compensate by first lowering the overall levels. Since you increased levels by 10 dB in the EQ section, your overall gain is 16.2 dB! To use the same EQ you need to lower the preamp to -10 dB. Your noise is most likely a clipped signal.

If your music has been analyzed with Analyze Audio, then you can look at the Peak Level (R128) tag. If your peak levels are close to 0 dBTP, then your song doesn't have much digital headroom. Most music and movies are mastered near peak levels so any boost will cause clipping.

As an aside, this thread should probably be moved back to the MC19 forum so more people can understand the issue.

[mykillk]

I'm curious. Does the Internal Volume of MC19 get applied before or after the DSP filters?

[mwillems]

I'm curious. Does the Internal Volume of MC19 get applied before or after the DSP filters?

Internal volume gets applied before EQ. If you look at his audio path (posted above) you'll see the adjustment for internal volume first in the path. Even with +16.5dB EQ, he shouldn't have had clipping at those volume levels (-38.5 dB). He also had clip protection engaged, which, if he had clipping, should have just lowered the level (resulting in pumping, not distortion).  But the EQ bands overlap slightly, so those two adjacent +10dB bands would have summed higher at some frequencies: if he turned the volume up, and not by that much, it would have been clip city.  I'm not sure how clip protection would react to an effective +16dB overage (maybe even +20dB in the overlap region), so it's possible that the distortion was clipping related and that mojave is correct (he usually is   ).

But for the described distortion, my money is still on excursion distortion/port chuffing, not clipping.  I have a pair of ported speakers and have gotten a noise that could potentially be described as "someone blowing on a microphone" by inadvertently overdriving them below the tuning frequency.  The giveaway would be if the LF driver was moving around like crazy whenever the distortion appears.

[mojave]

I didn't realize that internal volume was being used. I just did some tests using Convert Format with volume reduction in Parametric Equalizer (to simulate internal volume control) prior to Equalizer being used . The only time there is clipping is if the internal volume doesn't allow enough headroom for the EQ or if "Process independently of internal volume" is checked in the DSP Options. Using the same EQ settings as provided above, there was still clipping at -15 dB but not at -20 dB.

Clip protection being turned on didn't eliminate clipping caused by Equalizer or else clip protection doesn't activate during Convert Format (but I think it does).

[mwillems]

I didn't realize that internal volume was being used. I just did some tests using Convert Format with volume reduction in Parametric Equalizer (to simulate internal volume control) prior to Equalizer being used . The only time there is clipping is if the internal volume doesn't allow enough headroom for the EQ or if "Process independently of internal volume" is checked in the DSP Options. Using the same EQ settings as provided above, there was still clipping at -15 dB but not at -20 dB.

Clip protection being turned on didn't eliminate clipping caused by Equalizer or else clip protection doesn't activate during Convert Format (but I think it does).

So it sounds like he may have been getting clipping if he turned it up; I don't know if his volume settings in that screencap were his normal listening levels or not.  I was curious, though, about how clip protection interacts with EQ.  I also was under the impression that clip protection engaged when converting format, so it's odd that there would still be clipping present.  

So, in the spirit of inquiry, I tried an experiment where I set my internal volume to 100% and started inching up the pre-amp on the equalizer during playback.  Clip protection engaged almost immediately and remained on.  Between 0 and +5dB I experienced some pumping as the musical dynamics tripped clip protection only part of the time, but after I exceeded around +5dB, I experienced no subjective volume change when changing the pre-amp, even with the equalizer set to +12dB. The clip protection offset in the audio path just kept adjusting itself.  Throughout, I couldn't hear any clipping artifacts in the playback. By contrast, when I converted format with the same track and +12dB on the equalizer pre-amp, I heard definite and substantial clipping in the resulting track.  

I a/bed a few times to be sure, but as near as I can tell clip protection applies itself during playback even when EQ causes the clipping, but probably does not engage when converting format. I'm open to correction, though, as it was just a quick "lunch-hour" test, and you may have already covered this angle in your own testing.

[FastKayak]

Glad I read this thread.

I went and looked at my equalizer settings and discovered I had the same configuration issue, but with settings not as extreme but high enough to cause a audio issue. I have been hearing something close to static out of my mid ranges during piano and harp passages and, as best as I could determine, not at other times or during non-MC content. This was driving me nuts....did I have damaged speakers?  Was there some common denominator I hadn't picked up on?  Did I have some corrupted media in my audio library?  Did I need a hospital grade power outlet?  (just kidding)

Anyway, I now have the pre-amp setting at zero and all the others at 3 or less.  My piano and harp tracks now play very nice.

Thanks guys.  Jim H, you might want to add this to your list of weird issues & solutions.

FastKayak / Larry

[mwillems]

Anyway, I now have the pre-amp setting at zero and all the others at 3 or less.  My piano and harp tracks now play very nice.

The safest rule of thumb is to set the equalizer "pre-amp" setting to the negative of the highest boost you're applying in the rest of the EQ section.  So if your highest boost is +3dB, you'd want to set the pre-amp to -3dB.  That way you're very unlikely to ever drive things into clipping.  

If you use internal volume that will also usually give you some additional headroom (unless it's at 100%), but I know that not everyone uses their PC as the volume control.

[JadenKrosis]

One thing is for sure I really do like this player and the forum, now that the problem is solved and its time to switch out dacs again it`d be great if I could just get this finicky M2Tech Young to work consistently grrr!

[FastKayak]

The safest rule of thumb is to set the equalizer "pre-amp" setting to the negative of the highest boost you're applying in the rest of the EQ section.

Okay, I will change it and re-try my piano/harp tunes.  Again, thanks for the information on correct equalizer configuration.

FastKayak / Larry

[mykillk]

One thing is for sure I really do like this player and the forum, now that the problem is solved and its time to switch out dacs again it`d be great if I could just get this finicky M2Tech Young to work consistently grrr!

Describe your issue with that particular DAC again.

[Arindelle]

Question do people ever use flat line overflow or alaways put clip protection on as default? What "intervention" does clip protection actually do? Drop "preamp" levels momentarily I supposed but not sure

[mwillems]

Question do people ever use flat line overflow or alaways put clip protection on as default? What "intervention" does clip protection actually do? Drop "preamp" levels momentarily I supposed but not sure

My understanding (and my experience) is that clip protection functions kind of like a fast attack/slow release limiter, meaning that when the signal would otherwise clip, it quickly lowers the level of the music so that it will no longer clip.  Then it slowly allows the level to reset to the original level as long as no more clipping would occur.  It doesn't affect the pre-amp settings per se, it just quietly turns the volume down.  

There are potential disadvantages to this kind of limiter.  It's possible (based on what I'm reading in this thread) that there are some signal spikes that are so "fast" that clip protection won't entirely catch them (i.e. that the spike would "blow through" clip protection, at least for a brief moment), but I've never encountered one personally.  Similarly if the music only clips at regular, but widely separated, intervals (e.g. every 15 or 20 seconds), it could lead to "pumping" where the level of the music keeps increasing and decreasing as the limiter attacks and releases, etc.  There was a whole thread about that kind of "pumping" where someone was getting that kind of level variance and it was ultimately linked to EQ induced clipping and clip protection.

Neither is desirable, but either of those are better than the alternative: flat-line overflows, which just allows clipping to happen.  Clipping sounds terrible, and is potentially bad for audio equipment at high volumes.  I leave clip protection on all the time, but I have my DSP setup so that I never trip it.  One of the easiest ways to avoid clipping/clip protection engaging are to use volume leveling and internal volume control (without adaptive volume) as that will give you quite a bit of overhead to work with in most cases. If you want to be sure you won't clip, build in failsafes for any EQ that applies boost to the system (take advantage of the negative settings on the EQ pre-amp or the "maximum volume" settings).  

[JadenKrosis]

Describe your issue with that particular DAC again.

I hook it up and turn it on, it indicates its ready to go, computer says its working, MC19 is all configured for it and when I press play I get no sound. I`ve had to try plugging it in and powering it up and vice-versa, plus several other combinations of uninstalling and reinstalling the drivers to get it to work.
I`ve read where others who have this dac experience the same problems. Its a great sounding dac but a temperamental PIA.

[mykillk]

I hook it up and turn it on, it indicates its ready to go, computer says its working, MC19 is all configured for it and when I press play I get no sound. I`ve had to try plugging it in and powering it up and vice-versa, plus several other combinations of uninstalling and reinstalling the drivers to get it to work.
I`ve read where others who have this dac experience the same problems. Its a great sounding dac but a temperamental PIA.

Does it do that in both kernel streaming and WASAPI mode?

[JadenKrosis]

Yes when it screws up it wont play in any output so if I want to listen to music I have to unplug it and plug in another dac.
Currently it will not work at all, I hook it to the pc and my pc wont recognize it, the drivers wont install nor uninstall but the Young sits there with 44 on its smug little screen like its ready to go.
I did have my pc recognize it the other day and all set up in the JRiver player, when I hit play I got all indications that it was playing but no sound. If I switch to tracks of different resolution like 96 or 192 the Young indicates that number but theres still no sound.

[magnust]

Question do people ever use flat line overflow or alaways put clip protection on as default? What "intervention" does clip protection actually do? Drop "preamp" levels momentarily I supposed but not sure

I've suggested it before, I wish the dsp/audio-path button (the one that turns blue when player is running bit perfect) would turn red anytime any clipping occurs. And maybe turn yellow anytime the clip protection is engaging (since it's not always obvious for a listener that the playback is compromised by the level pumping)



Two arguments this isn't necessary:

1 - Just use "internal volume" and clipping will never occur.

Well, I can't use "internal volume" on one of my computers because the sound card and volume controls interact so all other sounds would be crazy crazy loud if I do it. I also have problems getting the media key volume buttons to function properly for MC when using internal volume (the media key volume control buttons will do different things depending on if MC is in focus or in the background). These problems all go away when not using internal volume.


2 - No visual cue is needed since you either hear the problem and rectify it or you don't hear it and then you don't need to rectify anything anyway.

Well, the problem is not if you get massive clipping or massive level pumping. The problem is when your listening is compromised by subtle clipping or subtle level pumping - so that what you hear is not optimal, it's degraded but not so much that you spot the degradation immediately.

[mwillems]

I've suggested it before, I wish the dsp/audio-path button (the one that turns blue when player is running bit perfect) would turn red anytime any clipping occurs. And maybe turn yellow anytime the clip protection is engaging (since it's not always obvious for a listener that the playback is compromised by the level pumping)



Two arguments this isn't necessary:

1 - Just use "internal volume" and clipping will never occur.

Well, I can't use "internal volume" on one of my computers because the sound card and volume controls interact so all other sounds would be crazy crazy loud if I do it. I also have problems getting the media key volume buttons to function properly for MC when using internal volume (the media key volume control buttons will do different things depending on if MC is in focus or in the background). These problems all go away when not using internal volume.


2 - No visual cue is needed since you either hear the problem and rectify it or you don't hear it and then you don't need to rectify anything anyway.

Well, the problem is not if you get massive clipping or massive level pumping. The problem is when your listening is compromised by subtle clipping or subtle level pumping - so that what you hear is not optimal, it's degraded but not so much that you spot the degradation immediately.

I agree that some kind of clip indicator would be nice.  

In the meanwhile though, there's a third clip avoidance mechanism you're not addressing. If you don't use DSP that creates a net boost you'll never cause clipping:

You don't necessarily need headroom if your DSP has no net boost.  If you add boost somewhere in the DSP chain, make sure to turn your overall levels down somewhere else in the DSP chain.  If you do that, you'll never cause clipping that wasn't already present in the program material.

Sometimes program material has intersample overs, and if you care about that you can automatically resolve it by using audio analysis and volume leveling (which incidentally gives you extra headroom for DSP as well), but as long as your DSP adds no net boost, you shouldn't see clip protection engaging.

Neither part of that solution require using internal volume.

[JadenKrosis]

I just realized that even with the settings down lower, with the M2tech I can still hear that low level rumble. I had turned off the EQ altogether when still connected to the Hailde dac and noticed the noise gone, and when I turned the EQ back on with lower settings I couldnt hear anything out of the ordinary.
Well I recently got my finicky M2tech to run again and even with these settings its there although it is less noticeable. This particular setting is actually the "rock" setting with the pre-amp slider slid down a little bit.

[Frobozz]

I just realized that even with the settings down lower, with the M2tech I can still hear that low level rumble. I had turned off the EQ altogether when still connected to the Hailde dac and noticed the noise gone, and when I turned the EQ back on with lower settings I couldnt hear anything out of the ordinary.
Well I recently got my finicky M2tech to run again and even with these settings its there although it is less noticeable. This particular setting is actually the "rock" setting with the pre-amp slider slid down a little bit.

You're still likely clipping with that EQ setting.  The Pre Amp slider is at +1.5 dB.  It should be at -4.6 dB (or lower) to prevent clipping with those EQ settings.

Edit to fix typo: change -1.46 dB to -4.6 dB (oops).

[Frobozz]

I've suggested it before, I wish the dsp/audio-path button (the one that turns blue when player is running bit perfect) would turn red anytime any clipping occurs. And maybe turn yellow anytime the clip protection is engaging (since it's not always obvious for a listener that the playback is compromised by the level pumping)

I like that idea.
An intersample clip indicator would also be neat (but likely confusing for most people).

[mwillems]

I like that idea.
An intersample clip indicator would also be neat (but likely confusing for most people).

It's not exactly what you're asking for, there's an easy way to spot intersample clipping.  When you analyze a file with analyze audio one of the outputs is the "Peak Level (R128)", which represents the "true peak," including any intersample overs. If the Peak Level (R128) tag for a file has a positive number the track contains intersample overs somewhere.

It's not a real-time clip indicator, but it will tell you which tracks are in danger of having intersample overs at maximum volume. I've found that loading a file into Audacity (with "show clipping" enabled) will often show where exactly the intersample overs are.

[Frobozz]

It's not exactly what you're asking for, there's an easy way to spot intersample clipping.  When you analyze a file with analyze audio one of the outputs is the "Peak Level (R128)", which represents the "true peak," including any intersample overs. If the Peak Level (R128) tag for a file has a positive number the track contains intersample overs somewhere.

It's not a real-time clip indicator, but it will tell you which tracks are in danger of having intersample overs at maximum volume. I've found that loading a file into Audacity (with "show clipping" enabled) will often show where exactly the intersample overs are.

That's clever.  I hadn't thought of looking at the R(128) peak values like that as an indicator for intersample clipping.  Cool.

I've been using a VST called Bitter when I suspect a track may have intersample clipping.

[Arindelle]

we should split this post lots of good info here, but getting away from the OP's thread .. no one will find this stuff

@Jmone your first job as newly knighted admin