INTERACT FORUM

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  
Pages: [1]   Go Down

Author Topic: Import or Index or ?  (Read 3707 times)

RoderickGI

  • MC Beta Team
  • Citizen of the Universe
  • *****
  • Posts: 8186
Import or Index or ?
« on: October 24, 2014, 08:05:33 am »

The use of the term "import", as has been raised several times in various threads, was of some concern to me. For anybody coming from iTunes it has potentially bad connotations, and for people with large collections of media all set up in structured directories they could baulk at the term and cancel the installation altogether. I know I paused and went back to read more before continuing.

But it needn't cause any concern, if it was named correctly. Because what MC actually does is index your media files, and store that index in a database, which JRiver call a library.

Lots of people understand Windows file indexing is non-destructive to the files it indexes, even if it can be painfully slow and resource hungry. If the MC process was called Indexing instead of Importing that whole issue could disappear.

For obvious reasons though, calling the database a Library makes sense.

What do you think?
Logged
What specific version of MC you are running:MC27.0.27 @ Oct 27, 2020 and updating regularly Jim!                        MC Release Notes: https://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/Release_Notes
What OS(s) and Version you are running:     Windows 10 Pro 64bit Version 2004 (OS Build 19041.572).
The JRMark score of the PC with an issue:    JRMark (version 26.0.52 64 bit): 3419
Important relevant info about your environment:     
  Using the HTPC as a MC Server & a Workstation as a MC Client plus some DLNA clients.
  Running JRiver for Android, JRemote2, Gizmo, & MO 4Media on a Sony Xperia XZ Premium Android 9.
  Playing video out to a Sony 65" TV connected via HDMI, playing digital audio out via motherboard sound card, PCIe TV tuner

Vincent Kars

  • Citizen of the Universe
  • *****
  • Posts: 1154
Import or Index or ?
« Reply #1 on: October 24, 2014, 08:35:55 am »

The use of the term "import", as has been raised several times in various threads, was of some concern to me. ....
Lots of people understand Windows file indexing is non-destructive to the files it indexes, even if it can be painfully slow and resource hungry.
....
 If the MC process was called Indexing instead of Importing that whole issue could disappear.

Excellent
JRiver doesn't  import the files at all, it simply builds a catalog filled with meta data.

For obvious reasons I do think the word "library" very unlucky.
It is a common source of misunderstanding.
Lot's of people call their audio files a "library".
An indeed if you go to a library you see piles of books
If you want to find something specific, you browse the catalog of the library, not the individual books.

IMHO the collection of audio files should/could be called a library
The database should be called a catalog  because that is what it is.
But as it is common in the world of media players to call the database a library this is a uphill battle.
Logged

BartMan01

  • MC Beta Team
  • Citizen of the Universe
  • *****
  • Posts: 1513
Re: Import or Index or ?
« Reply #2 on: October 24, 2014, 10:39:35 am »

Maybe 'locate your files'?
Logged

ssands

  • Galactic Citizen
  • ****
  • Posts: 457
Re: Import or Index or ?
« Reply #3 on: October 24, 2014, 11:04:49 am »

Index + the explanation that nothing is changed/moved/whatever.

Import means to bring something in from someplace else and that can easily be construed as moving files (as opposed to bringing in metadata).
Logged

JimH

  • Administrator
  • Citizen of the Universe
  • *****
  • Posts: 71682
  • Where did I put my teeth?
Re: Import or Index or ?
« Reply #4 on: October 24, 2014, 11:05:34 am »

Database is the correct, but a little intimidating, computer term.  Catalog is more like what MC is doing.

Changing the name at this stage would provide some confusion of its own.  Old versions/new versions, wiki, forum posts, etc.
Logged

fitbrit

  • MC Beta Team
  • Citizen of the Universe
  • *****
  • Posts: 4877
Re: Import or Index or ?
« Reply #5 on: October 24, 2014, 04:03:01 pm »

"Auto-import" alternatives:

Populate the database/catalogue/media library
Media Census/Registration
Cataloguing Media
Indexing Media

Logged

6233638

  • Regular Member
  • Citizen of the Universe
  • *****
  • Posts: 5353
Re: Import or Index or ?
« Reply #6 on: October 24, 2014, 04:19:46 pm »

Personally, I think you should use the "correct" term, which would be a Database.
Catalog or Index implies some kind of defined order to the data, though I would still prefer either of these to "Library" if you find them to be a friendlier term than database.
Library implies that the data is being "ingested" by Media Center rather than indexed by it, and "Library" has often brought confusion when people use it in the colloquial sense, rather than referring to Media Center's database.
 
On a similar note, I am actually fine with "Library Views" though I wonder if "Collections" may be more appropriate?
I'm not sure about changing the term "Import" though. Most programs which index files rather than moving or copying them into their own library still refer to the process as "importing".
Logged

RoderickGI

  • MC Beta Team
  • Citizen of the Universe
  • *****
  • Posts: 8186
Re: Import or Index or ?
« Reply #7 on: October 24, 2014, 06:30:26 pm »

Well this started something. Remember, this topic started in the thread about making MC easier to start using for new users, hence they were the target of my suggestion.

Where I was coming from was the parallel to a physical library:

You go to the library, browse or search using an index, and then go collect the book you want.
You go to the MC library, browse or search using an index, and then play the media file you want.

I was seeking to get away from the idea of moving media files into one place, and to use terminology that would be familiar to anyone who has been through a school system that included a library.

People understand that when you import goods, you move the goods from a source country to a destination country. When you import records in a database, you copy a record into a database, which could be a concern with media, even when it is understood that the original record is left intact. Now I have two copies of all my media files?! My hard disk will fill up!

Database is the correct, but a little intimidating, computer term.  Catalog is more like what MC is doing.

I guess some libraries I have used called their overall indexes a Catalogue, or used the two terms interchangeably. So Catalog/Catalogue would make sense.

Personally, I think you should use the "correct" term, which would be a Database.
Well as Jim says, it is correct. But as above, this suggestion was aimed at avoiding the "technical shock" of MC to a new user, and remove the potential concern or need to explain what "importing" is to a use who has an existing media collection.

The Catalogue is stored in a Database, and it is created by Indexing all your media files. That sits well with me. Or Indexing could be replaced by Cataloguing. (Forgive the American vs Australian English.)

Changing the name at this stage would provide some confusion of its own.  Old versions/new versions, wiki, forum posts, etc.

Yes, I thought of that as well. It is a big issue, mostly for existing users and people who have already installed the new, easier to install and start using, MC.

Brand new users who have just downloaded the program and started the installation process without reading the forums, which is probably a large percentage of new users, will avoid the confusion over "importing", but when they start searching for information on how to do things using the forum, it will get a little confusing.

Whether this is considered seriously depends on whether JRiver want to address the new user shock and ease of introduction to the program, I guess.
Logged
What specific version of MC you are running:MC27.0.27 @ Oct 27, 2020 and updating regularly Jim!                        MC Release Notes: https://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/Release_Notes
What OS(s) and Version you are running:     Windows 10 Pro 64bit Version 2004 (OS Build 19041.572).
The JRMark score of the PC with an issue:    JRMark (version 26.0.52 64 bit): 3419
Important relevant info about your environment:     
  Using the HTPC as a MC Server & a Workstation as a MC Client plus some DLNA clients.
  Running JRiver for Android, JRemote2, Gizmo, & MO 4Media on a Sony Xperia XZ Premium Android 9.
  Playing video out to a Sony 65" TV connected via HDMI, playing digital audio out via motherboard sound card, PCIe TV tuner

glynor

  • MC Beta Team
  • Citizen of the Universe
  • *****
  • Posts: 19608
Re: Import or Index or ?
« Reply #8 on: October 24, 2014, 07:15:27 pm »

What's in a name?

It strikes me that Import, Index, Catalog, and most of the other suggestions here are all pretty inherently nerdy words.  It is an inherently nerdy concept (entering files from a complex filesystem into a database).

Would one of those choices be marginally better?  Maybe.  But there's a long history here, and lots of existing documentation and wiki posts that would also never get cleaned up (the forum posts, in particular).  I think that you're removing a (hard to quantify and based on assumptions not data) bit of confusion on one hand, and creating a known-to-be large amount of confusion on the other hand.

Rearranging deck chairs.
Logged
"Some cultures are defined by their relationship to cheese."

Visit me on the Interweb Thingie: http://glynor.com/

6233638

  • Regular Member
  • Citizen of the Universe
  • *****
  • Posts: 5353
Re: Import or Index or ?
« Reply #9 on: October 24, 2014, 07:53:30 pm »

If you're coming from a player like iTunes, which copies files into its own library, I think it's important to make the distinction between that and Media Center's file indexing/database.
Logged

astromo

  • MC Beta Team
  • Citizen of the Universe
  • *****
  • Posts: 2239
Re: Import or Index or ?
« Reply #10 on: October 24, 2014, 07:58:01 pm »

What's in a name?

It strikes me that Import, Index, Catalog, and most of the other suggestions here are all pretty inherently nerdy words.  It is an inherently nerdy concept (entering files from a complex filesystem into a database).

Would one of those choices be marginally better?  Maybe.  But there's a long history here, and lots of existing documentation and wiki posts that would also never get cleaned up (the forum posts, in particular).  I think that you're removing a (hard to quantify and based on assumptions not data) bit of confusion on one hand, and creating a known-to-be large amount of confusion on the other hand.

Rearranging deck chairs.

Along that line, some embellishment of initial setup dialogue and/or a wiki link to explain what MC is doing when it does an "Import" would help the new user. The difficulty is that everyone has a different understanding. What's important are the terms and definitions that are relevant within the MC world. I agree that wholesale shift is prone to generating confusion in places where it currently doesn't exist.

If you want to get definitive, maybe set up a definition of terms / acronyms page on the Wiki? That way the preconceived ideas that we all bring with us are put into some kind of alignment.
Logged
MC31, Win10 x64, HD-Plex H5 Gen2 Case, HD-Plex 400W Hi-Fi DC-ATX / AC-DC PSU, Gigabyte Z370 ULTRA Gaming 2.0 MoBo, Intel Core i7 8700 CPU, 4x8GB GSkill DDR4 RAM, Schiit Modi Multibit DAC, Freya Pre, Nelson Pass Aleph J DIY Clone, Ascension Timberwolf 8893BSRTL Speakers, BJC 5T00UP cables, DVB-T Tuner HDHR5-4DT

kensn

  • MC Beta Team
  • Citizen of the Universe
  • *****
  • Posts: 1355
Re: Import or Index or ?
« Reply #11 on: October 24, 2014, 08:02:34 pm »

I think a simple explanation during the import step would suffice...
Logged
If(IsEmpty([Coffee Cup]), Coffee, Drink)

Listener

  • MC Beta Team
  • Citizen of the Universe
  • *****
  • Posts: 1084
Re: Import or Index or ?
« Reply #12 on: October 24, 2014, 08:24:41 pm »

The use of the term "import", as has been raised several times in various threads, was of some concern to me. For anybody coming from iTunes it has potentially bad connotations, and for people with large collections of media all set up in structured directories they could baulk at the term and cancel the installation altogether. I know I paused and went back to read more before continuing.

But it needn't cause any concern, if it was named correctly. Because what MC actually does is index your media files, and store that index in a database, which JRiver call a library.

Lots of people understand Windows file indexing is non-destructive to the files it indexes, even if it can be painfully slow and resource hungry. If the MC process was called Indexing instead of Importing that whole issue could disappear.

For obvious reasons though, calling the database a Library makes sense.

I disagree.  The rest of the world uses the word "import" as JRiver does.  It is just Apple that has a value added meaning - that it will move your files around to suit itself.  In addition, Apple used to use the word import to describe ripping a CD.

The problem that comes up over and over is that many beginners come to JRiver with little or no understanding of the concepts that JRiver and many other players are built on.  Explain the concepts with the terms that JRiver uses and the beginner has a good foundation for coping.  There are no magic words that will be understood by every beginner without explanation.
Logged

RoderickGI

  • MC Beta Team
  • Citizen of the Universe
  • *****
  • Posts: 8186
Re: Import or Index or ?
« Reply #13 on: October 25, 2014, 02:41:15 am »

The rest of the world uses the word "import" as JRiver does. 

Err, no. You may have missed this comment among the rest:

People understand that when you import goods, you move the goods from a source country to a destination country.

Then of course there is, just a minor thing, like the non-technical definition of the word.

The work "import' made me pause my original installation, because of the meaning of the word, my experience with iTunes, and the general ambiguity of the term in IT circles.

But I just threw the idea out there. I agree that information about what "import" means in MC at the right time, which is when the question is asked during installation, and in any installation videos/tutorials and so on, would probably remove any negative connotations.
Logged
What specific version of MC you are running:MC27.0.27 @ Oct 27, 2020 and updating regularly Jim!                        MC Release Notes: https://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/Release_Notes
What OS(s) and Version you are running:     Windows 10 Pro 64bit Version 2004 (OS Build 19041.572).
The JRMark score of the PC with an issue:    JRMark (version 26.0.52 64 bit): 3419
Important relevant info about your environment:     
  Using the HTPC as a MC Server & a Workstation as a MC Client plus some DLNA clients.
  Running JRiver for Android, JRemote2, Gizmo, & MO 4Media on a Sony Xperia XZ Premium Android 9.
  Playing video out to a Sony 65" TV connected via HDMI, playing digital audio out via motherboard sound card, PCIe TV tuner

JimH

  • Administrator
  • Citizen of the Universe
  • *****
  • Posts: 71682
  • Where did I put my teeth?
Re: Import or Index or ?
« Reply #14 on: October 25, 2014, 02:44:36 am »

We will "import" your files now.  No files will be moved or modified.  Relax and enjoy the flight.
Logged

jctcom

  • Citizen of the Universe
  • *****
  • Posts: 654
  • Rush - Styx - Yes - Porcupine Tree - Staple Food!
Re: Import or Index or ?
« Reply #15 on: October 25, 2014, 03:09:13 am »

"Auto-import" alternatives:

Populate the database/catalogue/media library
Media Census/Registration
Cataloguing Media
Indexing Media



How about what it's actually doing?

"Add to Library"
or
"Add To Catalogue"

Carl.

JimH

  • Administrator
  • Citizen of the Universe
  • *****
  • Posts: 71682
  • Where did I put my teeth?
Re: Import or Index or ?
« Reply #16 on: October 25, 2014, 03:21:28 am »

An idea or a culture can be "imported". 
Logged

jctcom

  • Citizen of the Universe
  • *****
  • Posts: 654
  • Rush - Styx - Yes - Porcupine Tree - Staple Food!
Re: Import or Index or ?
« Reply #17 on: October 25, 2014, 03:24:59 am »

An idea or a culture can be "imported". 

But when you do that aren't you usually "overwriting" the original Idea or Culture?

Or at least merging them.  lol

Carl.

fitbrit

  • MC Beta Team
  • Citizen of the Universe
  • *****
  • Posts: 4877
Re: Import or Index or ?
« Reply #18 on: October 25, 2014, 11:26:00 am »

If you're coming from a player like iTunes, which copies files into its own library, I think it's important to make the distinction between that and Media Center's file indexing/database.

Long ago, this was just an option in iTunes, but perhaps the default. There used to be a checkbox to have iTunes organise your media. It would leave the files alone if you didn't check this; is it no longer an option?
Logged

Listener

  • MC Beta Team
  • Citizen of the Universe
  • *****
  • Posts: 1084
Re: Import or Index or ?
« Reply #19 on: October 25, 2014, 12:17:55 pm »

But when you do that aren't you usually "overwriting" the original Idea or Culture?

Or at least merging them.  lol

Carl.

The files that you import are merged with the rest of the library.

JRiver is buit to work on tags in files going into database fields.  Some newcomers have no understanding of those concepts and think in terms of folders and files.
Logged

6233638

  • Regular Member
  • Citizen of the Universe
  • *****
  • Posts: 5353
Re: Import or Index or ?
« Reply #20 on: October 25, 2014, 12:21:16 pm »

Long ago, this was just an option in iTunes, but perhaps the default. There used to be a checkbox to have iTunes organise your media. It would leave the files alone if you didn't check this; is it no longer an option?
I'm sure it's still an option, but most users do not change options.
 
This is why having the right defaults is very important, and why there should be a first-time setup process for Media Center to do things like configure a sound device.
Logged
Pages: [1]   Go Up