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[laurent_69]

Hi all,

my new streamer handles DSD files through an I2S link but DoP files (flac) are not supported (supported only through USB input in fact).

Is there a way with JRiver to convert back my flac files containing DSD encapsulated in DoP format to a pure DSF file ?

Thanks in advance

Laurent

[dtc]

I have not tried it, but you should be able to convert (select track,  right click, library, convert) and use Dsp Studio within the convert options to set Output Encoding to 2xDSD in native format. However, Matt has warned in the past the DSD to DSD format conversions go through PCM format, so you may end up doing DSP(DoP) to PCM to DSD(Native). You might want to try doing a real time conversion (Audio Path - DSP Studio - Encoding) to 2XDSD and look at audio path and see what it says about the path. (Audio Path is the top right button with 3 vertical line.) Note DSP Studio settings in Audio Path and in File Conversion are independent settings.

[blgentry]

I thought high resolution audio files were usually one of two things:

1.  Native DSD.  1 bit, at 2.8 MHz or 2x or 4x that rate.
2.  PCM.  Generally 24 bit 96kHz or higher for "high resolution".

Now, DoP is a way of transporting native DSD data to a DAC externally.  There's no file conversion.  It just gets packed differently as it's sent down the USB cable to the DAC.

Are you saying that you've converted from type 1 to type 2 above?  If so, DSD to PCM and PCM to DSD are lossy conversions.  So there's no way to strictly go back and forth without losing *something*.  How audible it is, I have no idea.  But there's not a 1 to 1 relationship between DSD and PCM.

Or are you just saying that your new DAC doesn't support PCM at all?  If you just want MC to convert everything to DSD on the fly, so you can play PCM files on a DSD DAC (which is very unusual), that can be done:

Player > DSP Studio > Output Format > Output Encoding > (Choose single rate, 2x, or 4x DSD)

As far as I know, DACs that ONLY support DSD are pretty rare though.

Brian.

Brian.

[dtc]

Brian,

His DAC takes native but not DoP format. His files are DoP and he wants to be able to send native DSD to the I2S interface.  I think the OP  wants to change the DoP files to native DSD files so there are no real time conversions, but he may just want to do it in real time. I believe  DoP files are stored in PCM file format and can be compressed using flac.

This conversion could either be done by creating new files or on the fly. I would be concerned about doing it on the fly depending on the discussion below.

Converting DoP to native DSD should just be an unpacking. However, Matt once said that DSD to DSD files went through a PCM conversion, even it is just changing from dff to dsf, which is like changing from wav to flac 0. That is just a header change, but he was concerned it would go through conversion to PCM. That is why I thought it might go through a PCM conversion to go from DoP to native DSD. I have not checked to see if that is the case. It should be easy to check. If it goes through PCM, the conversion will be very slow.

The easiest way to do this is to keep the DoP files and just do the conversion on the fly to native DSD. I am just not sure if that works and if there is a PCM conversion in between.

Hope that makes sense.

[blgentry]

My point is that I don't think DoP is a file type.  How would one create a DoP file?  Perhaps there's something here I'm not aware of.

Brian.

[dtc]

My point is that I don't think DoP is a file type.  How would one create a DoP file?  Perhaps there's something here I'm not aware of.

Brian.

I am not sure if MC will create a DoP file or not. I get my DSD files from Vinyl Studio. It has an option to output DSD files as DoP files in flac format. I have created a file that way but have not had time to play with it in MC. It is a 2XDSD file that saved as a 352K/24 flac file. I will try it in MC although it will take a while for me to get to it. Tomorrow is a busy day, starting with early golf

[Hendrik]

DSD in DoP packaged in FLAC seems like a terrible abomination of a format. I wouldn't hold by breath for support, sorry.
Playing such files to a DoP capable DAC should work, as long as you turn off all DSP and ensure bitexact transmission. But that still leaves MC thinking its actually handling PCM, not DSD/DoP.

[dtc]

DSD in DoP packaged in FLAC seems like a terrible abomination of a format. I wouldn't hold by breath for support, sorry.
Playing such files to a DoP capable DAC should work, as long as you turn off all DSP and ensure bitexact transmission. But that still leaves MC thinking its actually handling PCM, not DSD/DoP.

Thanks. Not a format I would use, but the OP seems to indicate he has it. The question then becomes converting it to native DSD. From your comment, it sounds like that probably does not work, since MC does not know it is DSD and so will not unpack it correctly.

My guess is that this format exists because some players may not be able to convert native DSD to DoP, so bit streaming DoP directly from a file is the way to do it. Just a guess.

[laurent_69]

Brian,

His DAC takes native but not DoP format. His files are DoP and he wants to be able to send native DSD to the I2S interface.  I think the OP  wants to change the DoP files to native DSD files so there are no real time conversions, but he may just want to do it in real time. I believe  DoP files are stored in PCM file format and can be compressed using flac.

This conversion could either be done by creating new files or on the fly. I would be concerned about doing it on the fly depending on the discussion below.

Converting DoP to native DSD should just be an unpacking. However, Matt once said that DSD to DSD files went through a PCM conversion, even it is just changing from dff to dsf, which is like changing from wav to flac 0. That is just a header change, but he was concerned it would go through conversion to PCM. That is why I thought it might go through a PCM conversion to go from DoP to native DSD. I have not checked to see if that is the case. It should be easy to check. If it goes through PCM, the conversion will be very slow.

The easiest way to do this is to keep the DoP files and just do the conversion on the fly to native DSD. I am just not sure if that works and if there is a PCM conversion in between.

Hope that makes sense.

Exactly, my DAC support DoP files but only with a USB connection, with a PC linked to it. It does not accept Dop files streamed through a DLNA server, sadly.

As I have around 50 DSD albums stored as DoP and have lost original dsf files, I'm looking for a way to perform the "reverse" conversion without any quality loss, without any PCM conversion.

[laurent_69]

My point is that I don't think DoP is a file type.  How would one create a DoP file?  Perhaps there's something here I'm not aware of.

Brian.

No, Dop is not a file type. It is just a way of encapsulating DSD in PCM frames.

It is fully described below :
http://dsd-guide.com/dop-open-standard

you can use different container to store DoP format : WAV, FLAC, even ALAC...

[laurent_69]

DSD in DoP packaged in FLAC seems like a terrible abomination of a format. I wouldn't hold by breath for support, sorry.
Playing such files to a DoP capable DAC should work, as long as you turn off all DSP and ensure bitexact transmission. But that still leaves MC thinking its actually handling PCM, not DSD/DoP.

I can convert them in WAV file. FLAC is not an issue. The point is I don't know any tool (foobar, dbpoweramp, ...) able to convert back DoP format , whatever the container used, to a pure dsf file.

The only solution I've found is to write myself such a transcoder, based to the following dsd2flac code :

https://code.google.com/p/dsf2flac/


but that will take a loonnnggg time ....

[dtc]

Vinyl Studio will import flac files with DoP content and then allow you to write them out to DSF files. It is meant for manipulating files digitized from vinyl, but you can act like your DoP files are individual digitized tracks. You basically tell it you want to import a group of files and it will import them and split them into tracks. There is an option to set the track names according to the file names. You may have to specify the track file name format, depending on your naming convention.  You may have to do some manual tagging, since it is expecting a raw recording file, not one with lots of tags.   You can set  tags for the album or for individual files.  You then save the tracks as dsf files, at the same sample rate as the original files. It is really not meant as this type of conversion program but I think it will work.

I tried one file and it seemed to work, assuming I did it correctly. It was a quick trial so I am nor sure if their are any potential problems or quality issues. There is a learning curve with the program, but since all you are doing is importing and saving it should not be too bad.

In general, VS is a very good program, but it was not really set up for this type of conversion. There is a trial version available and the cost is only $29 to buy.

It may take a little time, but is at least a potential option. If you go that route, I can help you if you have any questions with the program.

[laurent_69]

It may take a little time, but is at least a potential option. If you go that route, I can help you if you have any questions with the program.

Very interesting. I downloaded the trial version and imported a flac file containing dop format but so far, the "DoP detection" does not work : I only get white noise tracks ....

[blgentry]

I should probably stop posting now because my knowledge of this issue is very limited...  But I wonder:

What program created these files?  Can this same program transcode from "encapsulated DoP in a FLAC container" to native DSD as DSF or DFF?

I also wonder why this program did this, but I guess that's immaterial to the discussion.

Brian.

[dtc]

I should probably stop posting now because my knowledge of this issue is very limited...  But I wonder:

What program created these files?  Can this same program transcode from "encapsulated DoP in a FLAC container" to native DSD as DSF or DFF?

I also wonder why this program did this, but I guess that's immaterial to the discussion.

Brian.

At one point hardware accepted DoP but there were limited ways to get DoP to those devices.  From my reading, Squeezebox was one of those devices. There were plug-ins in foobar that would create DoP flac files. So, people create those files to feed their Squeezeboxes. There may have been other hardware/players that needed DoP files. It seems like foobar does not have the reverse capability, since there were no DoP files except those created from dsf files.

[dtc]

Very interesting. I downloaded the trial version and imported a flac file containing dop format but so far, the "DoP detection" does not work : I only get white noise tracks ....

It may be a setting issue. It seemed to work for me, but it was with a DoP file created by Vinyl Studio. Under Recording Options there is an option to Enable DoP. Is that checked? Also, the white noise issue may be an output setup issue. You might try importing a non-DoP file and see if that plays. I will look at it in the morning.

[dtc]

When I import the DoP file, in Record it is listed as File 1 - filename (DSD 2x 2 ch xxxxx kbps. Is that what you see?

In Record Change Playback Device, does Test play Beethoven's Fifth correctly?

[laurent_69]

In fact, some of my Dop files are recognized as DSD, but with a huge amount of noise when playing back.

Some others are kept as PCM files, as white noise...

Have to investiage a bit about this ....

[laurent_69]

It may be a setting issue. It seemed to work for me, but it was with a DoP file created by Vinyl Studio. Under Recording Options there is an option to Enable DoP. Is that checked? Also, the white noise issue may be an output setup issue. You might try importing a non-DoP file and see if that plays. I will look at it in the morning.

Yes , I have checked the DoP option. Non-DoP files are correctly read.

Maybe some of my DoP files are corrupted. But the noise issue when it is correcly recognized as DSD is very strange....

[dtc]

I believe there are 2 different ways to identify a DoP file. It may be you have one and VS uses the other. You might try asking on the VS Technical Forum. Paul is usually very quick to reply. The only file I have to test was created by VS and it works, so yours may be in some different format or corrupted,  unfortunately.

[Dave54321]

Hi all,

my new streamer handles DSD files through an I2S link but DoP files (flac) are not supported (supported only through USB input in fact).

Is there a way with JRiver to convert back my flac files containing DSD encapsulated in DoP format to a pure DSF file ?

Thanks in advance

Laurent

This is an excellent question.   DoP FLACs were a necessary thing for lots of us in the early days of DSD streaming, as a sort of 'Trojan Horse' to get our streamers to unwittingly carry the DSD data and feed it to our DSD-capable DACs. However, it became largely obsolete after server software was able to stream DFF files as DoP on-the-fly (Squeezebox can do this). Of course, all of this is useless if your DAC can't handle DoP.

The unfortunate answer to the question of converting DoP back to plain old DSF is: No. The question has been asked on other forums, particularly Foobar forums, and there is sadly no inclination to write a plug-in to unpack a DoP file (FLAC) back to DSF. This means effectively that for now it is a one-way process that cannot be reversed.
HOWEVER, I would still hold onto those DoP FLACs. One day there is absolutely bound to be a program that will be able to recreate a DSF file from a DoP FLAC (it's hardly a big technical leap from what we already have, but I personally have zero know-how in this field).

[dtc]

The unfortunate answer to the question of converting DoP back to plain old DSF is: No. The question has been asked on other forums, particularly Foobar forums, and there is sadly no inclination to write a plug-in to unpack a DoP file (FLAC) back to DSF. This means effectively that for now it is a one-way process that cannot be reversed.

Vinyl Studio converts DoP files back to dsf files and does not go through any PCM conversion. It also converts dff to dsf without a PCM conversion. Great program and only costs $29, which is  a great price, even if you only want to do conversions. If you are recording vinyl it is an outright steal.

The OP tried it and had problems, but I think he may have started with corrupted files or had a playback problem.

You might want to report this back to the foobar forum and see if VS works for people trying to convert DoP back to dsf.