Topic: I can play DSD ISOs, but only in redbook (Read 18328 times)

bamyasi · « **on:** October 10, 2015, 09:53:25 am »

Hi, I'm just starting my trial period with JRiver 21, Ubuntu 14.04.3, 64 bit on Intel platform. I'm using an SMSL M8 DAC via USB. SACD ISOs play, but only at 44.1 mhz. If I go into "DSP studio" and select "DSD in DoP format", I get soft white noise. With the other DSD options, I get an error suggesting unsupported hardware or other issues. I hope I can clear this up!!

Edit: So far, I can't play PCM above 48 khz. 96khz is playing at 48khz. Redbook PCM plays at the expected 44.1. I can get up to 384khz with other software.

bamyasi · « **Reply #1 on:** October 12, 2015, 05:12:48 pm »

Really?!?

Nobody has any suggestions even for the PCM bitrate ceiling I seem to be hitting? I can play 24/96-192 and beyond no problem with other linux players.

blgentry · « **Reply #2 on:** October 12, 2015, 08:00:56 pm »

Player > DSP Studio > Output Format > (check)
(In output format) > Sample Rate :

This is the mapping of input sample rates to output sample rates. Look at (for example) 96kHz and see what it's output is set to. If you want no conversion for some sample rates (say up to 192,000), then set each of them to "no change". For those that you do want changed, choose an output format that your DAC can play natively.

In Output Format > Output Encoding, you should probably leave this set to None. This is used to convert *everything* to DSD or Dolby Digital. You probably don't want to do that.

Brian.

bamyasi · « **Reply #3 on:** October 13, 2015, 03:00:53 pm »

Thanks for the reply!!

I have all the PCM rates in DSP Studio set to "no change" up to 384khz, the upper limit for my DAC. According to my DAC, nothing is playing over 48khz, including 96khz and 192khz files. All DSD material will only play at 44.1khz.

Audio Device is set to Default [alsa] and device settings to "auto"

blgentry · « **Reply #4 on:** October 13, 2015, 03:10:53 pm »

I don't have any experience with Linux sound devices and MC. Maybe someone else can comment.

Brian.

bob · « **Reply #5 on:** October 13, 2015, 05:14:44 pm »

Quote from: bamyasi on October 13, 2015, 03:00:53 pm

Thanks for the reply!!

I have all the PCM rates in DSP Studio set to "no change" up to 384khz, the upper limit for my DAC. According to my DAC, nothing is playing over 48khz, including 96khz and 192khz files. All DSD material will only play at 44.1khz.

Audio Device is set to Default [alsa] and device settings to "auto"

You don't want to use the default or pulseaudio alsa devices because they require resampling to all one rate.
This is because you can't send multiple sample rates to the same device at the same time and mixing multiple audio outputs is the default on linux.
Other programs open the default or pulseaudio devices with a resampling flag set (which is the default). We think our resampler is better and then you know what you are getting (not 44.1k or 48k when you think it's 384k).
What you are looking for is the hardware device. This is usually front:something or usb:something in the case of some dacs. Unfortunately the naming isn't consistent.
To see what devices are available, open a terminal window and do
/usr/lib/jriver/Media\ Center\ 21/alsacap

bamyasi · « **Reply #6 on:** October 14, 2015, 03:19:22 pm »

Thanks, Bob.

Anyway, here's the info from 'Terminal':
-------------------------------------------
Card 1, ID `x20', name `xCORE USB Audio 2.0'
  Device 0, ID `USB Audio', name `USB Audio', 1 subdevices (1 available)
   2 channels, sampling rates 44100, 48000, 88200, 96000, 176400, 192000, 352800, 384000 Hz
   Sample formats: S32_LE, SPECIAL, S24_3LE
   Subdevice 0, name `subdevice #0'
-------------------------------------------
I've tried a number of options under 'Audio Device' that list "CARD=x20,DEV=0" plus one at the end of the list that says"sysdefault:CARD=x20 [ALSA]". All say [ALSA] at the end.

I haven't tried them all yet, but all so far resample anything over 48khz down to 48khz and overwrite my 'DSP Studio' "No Change" settings.

I find it particularly odd that DSD material is resampled to 44.1 khz.

blgentry · « **Reply #7 on:** October 14, 2015, 03:39:22 pm »

Quote from: bamyasi on October 14, 2015, 03:19:22 pm

I find it particularly odd that DSD material is resampled to 44.1 khz.

That's because 1x DSD (DSD64) converts "natively" to 352.8 kHz. Which is an integer multiple of 44.1kHz. So resampling to 44.1 is easy. Going to 48k would require floating point math and (maybe) rounding and stuff.

Brian.

Hendrik · « **Reply #8 on:** October 14, 2015, 03:50:46 pm »

Quote from: blgentry on October 14, 2015, 03:39:22 pm

That's because 1x DSD (DSD64) converts "natively" to 352.8 kHz. Which is an integer multiple of 44.1kHz. So resampling to 44.1 is easy. Going to 48k would require floating point math and (maybe) rounding and stuff.

Thats somewhat of a common misconception, resampling to an integer multiple or not doesn't make any real difference for either performance or quality.

blgentry · « **Reply #9 on:** October 14, 2015, 04:00:14 pm »

I disagree. Any time you "create" interpolated samples you're introducing something that isn't in the original. How can that *not* be worse?

Brian.

Hendrik · « **Reply #10 on:** October 14, 2015, 04:22:33 pm »

Quote from: blgentry on October 14, 2015, 04:00:14 pm

I disagree. Any time you "create" interpolated samples you're introducing something that isn't in the original. How can that *not* be worse?

No matter what you resample to, you have to introduce new data. The point only is that integer multiple or not makes no difference, as the algorithms don't care about that difference.
Obviously not resampling at all is best, but thats not the point I was making.

bamyasi · « **Reply #11 on:** October 14, 2015, 04:38:58 pm »

OK, progress!!

I set 'Audio Device' to "front:CARD=x20 [ALSA]".

If output encoding is set to "none" then pcm plays natively, but DSD plays at 352.8khz. If I set output encoding to "DSD in DoP format" EVERYTHING is resampled to DSD 128.

edit: I might have had it set to 2xDSD, but I still haven't found a setting for universal native playback.

Awesome Donkey · « **Reply #12 on:** October 14, 2015, 05:05:23 pm »

Is bitstreaming enabled (assuming it'd work on Linux)?

blgentry · « **Reply #13 on:** October 14, 2015, 05:09:01 pm »

Quote from: Hendrik on October 14, 2015, 04:22:33 pm

No matter what you resample to, you have to introduce new data.

Not when you're down sampling. 352.8 -> 44.1 just discards samples. No samples have to be interpolated at all. That was my point. ...and honestly I didn't post this to talk about quality. Just that integer resampling is easier when going down in sample rate in particular. ...and of course less calculations (interpolation) when going up.

Brian.

Hendrik · « **Reply #14 on:** October 14, 2015, 05:24:36 pm »

Quote from: blgentry on October 14, 2015, 05:09:01 pm

Just that integer resampling is easier when going down in sample rate in particular. ...and of course less calculations (interpolation) when going up.

But thats the entire point, its not "easier" with any sophisticated resampler. Its not like you just drop every second sample when going 88.2->44.1, that would result in terrible audio (strong aliasing). Instead, you fully interpolate the final sample rate from the original.

bamyasi · « **Reply #15 on:** October 14, 2015, 05:26:37 pm »

Quote from: Awesome Donkey on October 14, 2015, 05:05:23 pm

Is bitstreaming enabled (assuming it'd work on Linux)?

I haven’t found such a setting.

Awesome Donkey · « **Reply #16 on:** October 14, 2015, 05:28:24 pm »

Options > Audio

Bitstreaming is under ZoneSwitch - change it from None to DSD.

It may or may not work, not really sure.

blgentry · « **Reply #17 on:** October 14, 2015, 05:36:50 pm »

Quote from: Hendrik on October 14, 2015, 05:24:36 pm

But thats the entire point, its not "easier" with any sophisticated resampler. Its not like you just drop every second sample when going 88.2->44.1, that would result in terrible audio (strong aliasing). Instead, you fully interpolate the final sample rate from the original.

Hmm, ok. I guess I should read up a bit more on resampling algorithms. I never did make it all the way through Ken Pohlmann's book on digital audio.

Brian.

bamyasi · « **Reply #18 on:** October 14, 2015, 06:30:42 pm »

Quote from: Awesome Donkey on October 14, 2015, 05:28:24 pm

Options > Audio

Bitstreaming is under ZoneSwitch - change it from None to DSD.

It may or may not work, not really sure.

I found ZoneSwitch, but no options like you suggest, but a dialogue with an "enable zone switch" check. There's more than I can describe in detail. If I could "cut and paste" I would. Very frustrating!! I'd post a screenshot if this forum supported it.

Awesome Donkey · « **Reply #19 on:** October 14, 2015, 06:34:29 pm »

It's below the ZoneSwitch option (highlighted in orange below);

bamyasi · « **Reply #20 on:** October 14, 2015, 06:51:22 pm »

That's exactly the setting I already have.

bamyasi · « **Reply #21 on:** October 14, 2015, 07:37:39 pm »

I notice in your signature you're using a Schiit Modi 2 Uber USB DAC. I'm using a DAC that supports DSD. The only problem I have at this point is related to native playback switching between PCM and DSD. Unless you have a DSD DAC, you may not be able to see what I'm trying to work out in it's entirety. Nonetheless, you've really helped me out getting DSD to work at all!!

blgentry · « **Reply #22 on:** October 14, 2015, 07:55:57 pm »

Quote from: bamyasi on October 14, 2015, 06:51:22 pm

That's exactly the setting I already have.

So you have bitstreaming set to Disabled right? DSD support is really confusing in JRiver MC. It's actually really confusing overall! The bitstreaming option tells MC to pass certain things untouched. "Just stream them; no processing". If you set bitstreaming to DSD, then it will pass DSD to your DAC without converting it to PCM and without applying any other processing at all. No EQ, no nothing. It will stream it untouched.

So that's probably what you want: Bitstreaming > DSD

I've enjoyed listening to a very small amount of DSD on my PCM only DAC; converted to 352.8 as you recently heard from your DAC. Good luck on your setup.

Brian.

bamyasi · « **Reply #23 on:** October 14, 2015, 08:14:11 pm »

"So you have bitstreaming set to Disabled right?"

I can't even FIND a bitstreaming option.

edit: err wait a minute...

Yeah, closest setting I found was "output encoding " in DSP Studio.

blgentry · « **Reply #24 on:** October 14, 2015, 08:18:48 pm »

Quote from: bamyasi on October 14, 2015, 08:14:11 pm

I can't even FIND a bitstreaming option.

edit: err wait a minute...

Tools > Options > Audio > Settings > Bitstreaming . Should be set at none right now. Change to DSD to start bitstreaming native DSD to your DAC. ...just in case you didn't find it.

Brian.

bamyasi · « **Reply #25 on:** October 14, 2015, 08:21:35 pm »

Found it

Yes, It's disabled.

bamyasi · « **Reply #26 on:** October 14, 2015, 08:30:47 pm »

Quote from: blgentry on October 14, 2015, 08:18:48 pm

Tools > Options > Audio > Settings > Bitstreaming . Should be set at none right now. Change to DSD to start bitstreaming native DSD to your DAC. ...just in case you didn't find it.

Brian.

That's it!!! I set bitstreaming to DSD and everything plays in it's native format!! Thanks a million!!

This info should REALLY be with every download!! DSD playback including ISOs under Linux is a real selling point for this software. This should be exploited and the first step is to make it easy!!

Awesome Donkey · « **Reply #27 on:** October 14, 2015, 08:44:13 pm »

Quote from: bamyasi on October 14, 2015, 07:37:39 pm

I notice in your signature you're using a Schiit Modi 2 Uber USB DAC. I'm using a DAC that supports DSD.

I own a DSD capable USB DAC too and I've used it like this. Glad you've got it sorted.

bamyasi · « **Reply #28 on:** October 14, 2015, 08:52:23 pm »

Thanks again!!

One more question?

Under 'Audio Device' I got it to work setting it to "front:CARD=x20 [ALSA]".
Is this the best setting to use? does it matter as long as it works?
I just don't want to run the stream though extra processing or disable any features.

Thanks!!

bob · « **Reply #29 on:** October 15, 2015, 01:24:08 pm »

Quote from: bamyasi on October 14, 2015, 08:52:23 pm

Thanks again!!

One more question?

Under 'Audio Device' I got it to work setting it to "front:CARD=x20 [ALSA]".
Is this the best setting to use? does it matter as long as it works?
I just don't want to run the stream though extra processing or disable any features.

Thanks!!

That's a direct hardware device, ALSA's mixer is not involved and we turn auto-resampling off so yes, that is the device to use.

bamyasi · « **Reply #30 on:** October 15, 2015, 02:54:16 pm »

Thanks!
I may just have to buy this!!

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Author Topic: I can play DSD ISOs, but only in redbook (Read 18328 times)