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Author Topic: PC noise coming through speakers  (Read 7411 times)

Guybrush

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PC noise coming through speakers
« on: November 05, 2015, 12:10:28 pm »

I just finished a new HTPC build where the PC/JRiver is acting as my preamp/receiver connected to a power amp. I am using an internal Claro Halo XT sound card which connects to the power amp via shielded RCAs. I built the power amp using Connexelectronic modules. My speakers now have lots of static, pops, and whirring noises related to the processing load of the PC. I hear the bluray drive and hard drive spinning, the GPU fans going, and little static pops when I scroll with the mouse or sometimes just push a key on the keyboard - all through the speakers. I have tried everything I could find elsewhere but the PC to power amp setup is something often unique to the JRiver crowd. Stuff I've tried:

1. Cheater plug on the amp to lift the ground (not safe, I know. Just testing.) No benefit from this. Noise even got a little worse.
2. Ground loop isolator. I bought a cheap one from best buy with the intention of getting nicer ones if it fixed the problem. As soon as I turned on the amp with it installed, I thought the speakers were going to blow with the noise that was coming out of them. This was all electrical noise, no audio signal. I don't know why an audio transformer would induce such noise.
3. I disabled Intel speedstep and C1E states in the BIOS. I even tried enabling the spread spectrum option for reduced EMI. No benefit from these, either.

Has anyone had a similar problem? Please help!
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blgentry

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Re: PC noise coming through speakers
« Reply #1 on: November 05, 2015, 12:39:35 pm »

Just some thoughts:

1.  Try your power amp with an audio only system.  Plug in the outputs of a receiver, a preamp, a mixing board, an ipod, a phone... anything that's a not a computer to validate that the amp works as you expect it to.
2.  Your symptoms seem to point to one of two things:  Ground problems between the components.  Or a terrible onboard sound card.  I would try an external USB sound card.
3.  You mentioned some ground testing.  Are the computer and the amp plugged in to the same outlet?  Or at least the same circuit in your house?  I would try that if possible.
4.  Your story about the ground loop isolator is troubling.  An amp shouldn't freewheel out of control with an isolator plugged into it.  This makes me want to investigate the amp itself.  But step #1 above should give us more information.

Good luck!

Brian.
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Guybrush

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Re: PC noise coming through speakers
« Reply #2 on: November 05, 2015, 01:49:43 pm »

Thanks for your reply. In JRiver, I have it set to play songs off of RAM, so when just playing music there is a constant processor load, everything sounds great. The worst is playing an actual bluray or dvd with the optical drive whirring or a game when the GPU is under load.

I've been thinking it's a grounding issue and have tried to narrow it down. Everything is on the same circuit, and the fact that the cheater plug didn't help tells me the noise isn't coming through the earth ground. One option is that the noise is affecting the signal that the sound card produces. It shouldn't do that because the Claro Halo is actually very high end as far as internal cards go and it should filter PCI ground noise. All its power comes from the PCI bus, there is no additional molex to the PSU. The other option is that the RCA cables share a ground with the rest of the PC, and the noise could be getting to the amps directly through the RCAs. That's why I thought the audio transformer was a good idea and why I'm totally baffled that the amp when crazy as soon as it saw it. Could it be an impedance mismatch? Currently the RCA cables are insulated from the amp chassis, so the star ground for that system is at the soundcard. If I break that ground with the isolator, do I need to move the star ground to the amp chassis by connecting the RCA inputs to it?
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mwillems

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Re: PC noise coming through speakers
« Reply #3 on: November 05, 2015, 04:02:48 pm »

If you hear variable pitch noise that changes based on PC activity it is unlikely that you have a grounding problem.  Ground loops typically manifest as a 60Hz hum that may vary in volume but never in pitch.  You likely have an electrical isolation problem (EMI being transmitted where it shouldn't), which is not the same as grounding and can't be addressed the same way.  I previously experienced the exact same problem that you're experiencing with a few different soundcards and the issue in my case had nothing to do with grounding, the PC noise was being transmitted directly through my soundcard to the amplifier.

The issue in my case resulted from a poorly electrically isolated DAC (soundcards inside my PC) hooked up to a high gain amplifier.  What you are hearing is very likely the noise being transmitted to your soundcard through the PCI bus being transmitted to the amp and then amplified 20 to 30 dB.  There are only three solutions to that kind of problem:

1) A better isolated DAC/soundcard: you can invest in an external DAC, an internal DAC with an alternative power source, or you can investigate some kind of PCI power filter.  I would advise looking into external DACs as I have tried a half dozen internal cards including several with separate molex power draws, some of which were quite expensive and had (allegedly) spectacular noise performance. None were adequately isolated enough to hook up to a high gain power amp with very sensitive speakers.  For example, I have an Asus Essence ST (which is a close cousin to your Claro), which has a separate molex power draw, and allegedly has a -124dBFS noise floor.  In practice it picked up significant PC noise that I could hear through my speakers from across the room.  The noise was exactly like yours (varied in tone and pitch based on CPU activity, and I could hear drives spinning up, etc.).  I had the same experience with several other internal cards (I tested six in all).  

Internal cards with analog outputs, even very high end ones, just aren't great at noise isolation in my experience, which is exacerbated when hooked directly to a 20dB or 30dB gain amplifier. Put another way, even a sound card with a respectable -100dBFS noisefloor only has a -70dBFS noisefloor once fed through a high gain amp, and if a -20dBFS audio signal is plenty loud on your setup, a changing pitch noisefloor at -70dBFS will be quite audible.  And that's assuming that the specifications provided are "honest" (i.e. actually taken in a normal PC environment instead of a lab). External DACs/soundcards are, as a group, better in my experience even with equivalent published distortion specs, for that exact reason. if you can get an external DAC with balanced outputs, even better.  As an object example, my current external DAC has a rated dynamic range of 117dB, which means based on specs it should be 7dB noisier than my Asus ST and about as noisy as my Asus DX.  I can tell you from actual measurement that it's actually 10 to 20 dB lower noise than either of those two cards in any PC I've tested.

2) A passive in-line attenuator.  This will push the noise floor of your sound card farther down (prior to the amp) so there will be less noise to amplify.  This will lower your theoretical maximum output volume as well, but will result in significantly less noise coming out of your speakers at idle.  They're available in different attenuation values, and you want to use as little attenuation as you can stand.  Here's an example of the type of device: http://www.amazon.com/Harrison-Labs-Line-Level-Attenuator/dp/B0006N41B0.  Other than limiting headroom they should contribute no noise or distortion to the setup (other than some resistive heat noise way down at -140dBFS).

3)  You built your amps (I built my own too!): if you can adjust the fixed voltage gain of your amplifier modules, try turning down the gain.  Note that depending on where you placed your volume switch in your design you may be able to adjust the effective gain by adjusting the volume, but that may not be the case (it depends on whether your volume control attenuates at the input or the output). it may not be that easy depending on your design.  In my case I had to pull a resistor.

I have a pair of 113dB sensitivity horns and I had to do all three steps to effectively remove all audible PC noise, no joke.  I now use an external DAC with balanced outputs, 10dB in-line attenuators, and I lowered the gain on my home-made amps.   All three were necessary to get to "black silence."  Two out of the three got me close, but I could still faintly hear noise when nothing was playing (a soft hiss).

113dB sensitivity is an extreme case though, with a speaker with a normal sensitivity you might only need to do one or two of the options.  The in-line attenuators are by far the cheapest solution if you can spare the headroom, unless you can easily adjust your amp gain.
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Guybrush

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Re: PC noise coming through speakers
« Reply #4 on: November 06, 2015, 08:05:12 am »

Thanks for the detailed reply. Everything you said makes sense. I have a 5 channel set of Klipsch speakers that are highly sensitive (98dB) but nothing like your 113dB. I ordered those attenuators last night but am thinking about it more this morning. I didn't add any gain knobs to my amp I built, but now I'm thinking I need to go back and do that. I need to increase the S/N of the sound card by playing it at a higher volume setting than 5%. Are then attenuators necessary if I add pots to all the amp inputs? Wouldn't they be accomplishing the same thing?
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mwillems

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Re: PC noise coming through speakers
« Reply #5 on: November 06, 2015, 09:03:41 am »

Thanks for the detailed reply. Everything you said makes sense. I have a 5 channel set of Klipsch speakers that are highly sensitive (98dB) but nothing like your 113dB. I ordered those attenuators last night but am thinking about it more this morning. I didn't add any gain knobs to my amp I built, but now I'm thinking I need to go back and do that. I need to increase the S/N of the sound card by playing it at a higher volume setting than 5%. Are then attenuators necessary if I add pots to all the amp inputs? Wouldn't they be accomplishing the same thing?

They would be accomplishing the exact same thing so long as the pots are on the amp inputs and don't introduce any noise themselves (pots can be noisey if not implemented carefully, which is why I used passive attenuators, I don't trust myself to do a low-noise design).  But a well-designed volume input attenuator will do the same thing (and provide more flexibility if you change sound cards later).

If you're running at 5% volume you'll probably need a fair bit of attenuation, which makes an adjustable attenuator make more sense. It also makes sense why you're hearing the noise floor, but that should be an easy (and cheap) fix  ;)
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Guybrush

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Re: PC noise coming through speakers
« Reply #6 on: February 08, 2016, 06:56:20 pm »

They would be accomplishing the exact same thing so long as the pots are on the amp inputs and don't introduce any noise themselves (pots can be noisey if not implemented carefully, which is why I used passive attenuators, I don't trust myself to do a low-noise design).  But a well-designed volume input attenuator will do the same thing (and provide more flexibility if you change sound cards later).

If you're running at 5% volume you'll probably need a fair bit of attenuation, which makes an adjustable attenuator make more sense. It also makes sense why you're hearing the noise floor, but that should be an easy (and cheap) fix  ;)

I know this is a delayed response, but I wanted to report that your suggestions worked. I installed the inline attenuaters as well as volume pots and most of the noise is gone. No more dvd drive spinning noise but there is a bit of noise when my gpu ramps up to full speed during gaming. It doesn't bother me because I generally have the volume up high enough to cover it. I did keep mIy internal sound card and I suppose it could be further improved with an external.
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Arindelle

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Re: PC noise coming through speakers
« Reply #7 on: February 09, 2016, 04:52:29 am »

I hesitate to respond to this because MWillems is the expert on this ... but I didn't see this mentioned skimming the post ... You are NOT using system volume or application volume in your JRiver config by chance are you? I know this won't affect certain symptoms, but with audio playback and those attenuators, if set to Internal or Disabled Volume options. You should have any noise at all coming through the speakers I would think.

I suppose for gaming you might not be able to use JRiver in exclusive mode. But if that is the case you could create a zone

Anyways sorry for butting in ... my son's gaming rig was just awful for audio playback until I noticed he was using system volume. Probably has nothing to do with it :)
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Guybrush

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Re: PC noise coming through speakers
« Reply #8 on: February 09, 2016, 06:59:20 am »

I hesitate to respond to this because MWillems is the expert on this ... but I didn't see this mentioned skimming the post ... You are NOT using system volume or application volume in your JRiver config by chance are you? I know this won't affect certain symptoms, but with audio playback and those attenuators, if set to Internal or Disabled Volume options. You should have any noise at all coming through the speakers I would think.

I suppose for gaming you might not be able to use JRiver in exclusive mode. But if that is the case you could create a zone

Anyways sorry for butting in ... my son's gaming rig was just awful for audio playback until I noticed he was using system volume. Probably has nothing to do with it :)

Thanks for your reply. I'm using internal volume and the WDM setup works fine for games. I'm happy with the setup, but realize now that using an internal sound card in a highly noisy system connected to a serious power amp was perhaps asking for trouble. I wanted a hi-fi system and I wanted to DIY as much as possible, so I built the power amp, the sub, the sub amp, the PC, etc. With my feeling of accomplishment for building an awesome-sounding and very powerful home theater system comes a little bit of hiss from the amp and noise from the PC preamp. It has been managed and is barely noticeable now.
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mwillems

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Re: PC noise coming through speakers
« Reply #9 on: February 09, 2016, 07:32:06 am »

Very glad to hear it all worked out!  If you do ever make the switch to an external card, let us know if that kills the noise entirely.  But it sounds like you've gotten to a good spot. 
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TobiMan

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Re: PC noise coming through speakers
« Reply #10 on: February 09, 2016, 12:27:48 pm »

I've that kind of noise since I switched from an Onkyo Reveiver (TX-NR 508) to a Rotel RSP-1572. It took a while after I found out the HDMI connection was the culprit. I could never get rid of it, no matter what I tried (better shielded Cables, low EMI Graphic Card, power from another room for the HTPC....).
The noise is very low and when watching a movie you can't hear it anyway... BUT the fact is IS there is insulting enough  ;)
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