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[d_pert]

Hi,

I just started trying out Internal volume control, and have read up on all the available resources re: the various MC Volume options.

Note: This post is not about the software vs. analog volume topic.

Most of the practical range of operation will probably be limited to approx. the upper 30% of the volume slider's "physical" range.

This goes for both the main application and REMOTE on my dedicated iPad2.

Also I notice the resulting volume takes a huge jump in the uppermost 10% of the volume control's range; perhaps the function is already non-linear, with a steeper slope there?

So ... Might MC might benefit from Volume slider "curve options" or "slope options"?

The "volume dial contour" of some higher-end components is sometimes a lesser selling point, and so why not implement this value-added feature in the software domain?

Without some option(s) here ... I can already see that I'll be delicately and gingerly finessing wee changes in one part of the slider(s) to make big changes in volume, especially within the top 10% (90-100%) where it seems super-sensitive.

Correspondingly, the slider-range approx. 0-50% might as well all be called "super-low volume" and rarely if ever used; it would be really nice to have use of that lower part of the slider too for practical day-to-day use.

P.S. - It would be great to get a much longer "throw" for the slider generally (make it span much more of the GUI) also. Perhaps another suggestion for the possible new/redux GUI?

THANKS

[blgentry]

Hmm.  I just did a little testing.  As far as I can tell, every 5% of the internal volume slider is corresponds to 2.5 dB of output.  In my testing, this seems very linear (with perceived sound level) in all ranges of the slider.  I don't hear any volume jumps anywhere.

Maybe the preamp/amp you are feeding is turned up very loud?  But that wouldn't explain why you think the bottom 30% is extra extra quiet.  I'm puzzled.

I'm running MC21.0.31 for Mac.

Brian.

[AndrewFG]

Cool idea. Perhaps a dBA scale??

[Hendrik]

MCs volume uses dB today, which makes it logarithmic by nature - but is perceived linear. Only at the low end of the volume the curve adjusts slightly to give a more fine grained control. I don't remember the numbers exactly.

Personally I find it working quite nicely. Many other players use a "linear" scale, where most of the range is truely useless, but MCs volume control seems to work properly for me, I frequently change in a range of 15-20% depending on time of viewing and how I feel.
I'm not sure how you would expect to use the "full" range of the volume control. Every volume control goes down to zero, which is clearly not an area you usually use.

In any case, what exactly are you hoping to gain from this? You didn't exactly say why you would want this to change, what there is to gain other than more usable slider, which doesn't seem to be that much of a goal by itself.

[d_pert]

Thanks for the thoughtful responses!

The goal would be:

Spread a more practical volume adjustment range over more of the finger motion (and slider) range. "Practical" might actually be a 20dB swing instead of a 40db swing (?) and would be guessed/averaged from what "most people" consider the difference from "background at dinner with guests" through to "full realistic acoustic performance level / quite loud but not crazy".

I realize dB / log / percent / SPL / perception / subjective is all part of this ... but: right now the move from "background at dinner" (aka "can hear it well but doesn't interfere too much with conversation") to "nice and loud but not crazy but you kind have to yell to have any conversation" takes place over at most 40% of the slider and percentage range. Well maybe 50%. (?)

That "practical" dB range should be spread out more.

All these numbers I'm putting out could be easily be +/-5 too ... I'm just trying to illustrate an overall theme.

Perhaps segmenting it out as follows, from left to right

1st segment: 0-20% slope = X/Y
2nd segment: 21-100% slope = X/2Y

... or giving a few presets to choose from?

More simply put: handle the lower 50% of the volume range in the lower 20% of the slider, and the rest in the remaining 80% of the slider. This would be reflected in both audible and displayed percentages.

I'm not suggesting that I know that the actual underlying function is, just the practical end.

In case it matters, my setup is really simple:

Windows 10 x86 ACER Tablet with MC > Schitt Bifrost Multibit USB DAC (no level controls) > NAD C275BEE amp variable unbal. input.

THANKS

[RD James]

Only at the low end of the volume the curve adjusts slightly to give a more fine grained control.

I think this must be bugged because everything below 20% starts changing in coarser and coarser steps as you approach zero.
Though it would be less of a problem for me if the loudness calibration level could be changed. http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=101599

[mojave]

JRiver used to use the following:
0%: silence
10%: -46 dB
25%: -27 dB
50%: -14 dB
75%: -6 dB
100%: 0 dB

but now uses a two slope curve since 17.0.87 (2/10/2012):
0%: silence
1%: -100 dB
10%: -70 dB
20%: -40 dB (beginning of other slope)
40%: -30 dB
60%: -20 dB
80%: -10 dB
100%: 0 dB

I find the current method to work very well for all systems I've used and was a welcome change by many. I've used it with keyboard, remote, and JRemote for iOS and all three apps for Android. One thing to consider is that everyone's system will be in a different part of the volume level. Here at work I'm between -40 dB and -60 dB most of the time.

[Hendrik]

The old curve mojave mentioned is what most players usually do and is generally pretty annoying. I agree that the new curve works quite nicely.

[blgentry]

"Practical" might actually be a 20dB swing instead of a 40db swing (?) and would be guessed/averaged from what "most people" consider the difference from "background at dinner with guests" through to "full realistic acoustic performance level / quite loud but not crazy".

Ok, I see your issue now.  You want around 20 dB of adjustment over a nice big CONTROL range that you can adjust.  Currently 22.5 dB happens over a 50% range of the volume control.  You'd like that area to span 70% or maybe more of the volume control, for more fine grained adjustments.  If I'm reading you correctly.

How are you adjusting the volume?  By grabbing the slider with the mouse?  That's definitely harder to control.

Have you tried using the hot keys?  <control>+ and <control> -  will adjust volume 1% at a time.  This should give you very fine grained control.  Give it a try and see what you think.

Brian.

[blgentry]

but now uses a two slope curve since 17.0.87 (2/10/2012):
0%: silence
1%: -100 dB
10%: -70 dB
20%: -40 dB (beginning of other slope)
40%: -30 dB
60%: -20 dB
80%: -10 dB
100%: 0 dB

That doesn't map directly to what I'm seeing here, but it's close.  I have:

6%:   -73 dB
10%:  -55 dB
20%:  -40 dB
Up from here all matches

It's a minor difference.  I'm mainly posting to see if somehow the Mac version is different from the Windows version.  Can someone verify what they see on a Windows MC21 volume mapping?

Brian.

[Hendrik]

These values "move" if you configure a reference level, it always has reference at 0dB.

[blgentry]

^ My reference level is set to 100%.

I still have the same mapping with 10% == -55 dB

Brian.

[mojave]

These values "move" if you configure a reference level, it always has reference at 0dB.

The dB values shown in the slider move, the but the decibel change shown in chart does not move.

In other words, going from 100% to 80% is always a -10 dB change regardless of Reference Level. Reference Level has nothing to do with the two slope curve.

[d_pert]

Ok, I see your issue now.  You want around 20 dB of adjustment over a nice big CONTROL range that you can adjust.  Currently 22.5 dB happens over a 50% range of the volume control.  You'd like that area to span 70% or maybe more of the volume control, for more fine grained adjustments.  If I'm reading you correctly.

Yes, exactly.

How are you adjusting the volume?  By grabbing the slider with the mouse?  That's definitely harder to control.

I'm using JREMOTE on iPad mostly. So "touch". I use the iPad in landscape orientation; the app adapts with a physically longer volume slider that way.

When I do interact with the main application, I don't generally adjust volume there; it's running on a dedicated Windows 10 Tablet PC with no external keyboard readily accessible, and the GUI is too fine/small to work the application volume slider by touch.

[blgentry]

I'm using JREMOTE on iPad mostly. So "touch". I use the iPad in landscape orientation; the app adapts with a physically longer volume slider that way.

Hmm.  Are you running without a preamp or receiver or AVR ?  If you have any of those, why not use the hardware volume control (via wireless remote) on those devices?

Brian.

[d_pert]

I'm currently running without a preamp, yes. It's an audio-only room. This was an experiment to simplify and streamline my system, using software volume control and connecting the DAC straight to the amp. I could also unload a $1,200 preamp, and enjoy less clutter and wires.

Overall, my first impressions are that I'm getting a slightly clearer sounding result, although I need to live with it for a while.

I have the dedicated JREMOTE iPad on an excellent table-top stand, with the volume slider right at my finger tip if/when I need it, so there's no loss of convenience remote-wise.

Only the issue I raise detracts from the new streamlined setup. ;(

P.S. - As I'm just one person, I can't really make a case for a change to the current volume slider curve/slope. Rather, I'm only suggesting that alternative presets/options would be great to help fine-tune the experience that much more.

[blgentry]

A couple of more thoughts:

1.  How much does the JRemote volume move when you use the hardware volume controls on the ipad?  That might be an option.
2.  MC supports wireless remote controls.  You can buy a media center remote that comes with an IR USB receiver that you plug in to the computer.  Then you can use the hardware volume controls on the remote.  It looks like you can customize those commands too.  The example mentions controlling volume by 1% steps:

http://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/Media_Center_Remote_Instructions

That would seem to be a good solution.

Brian.

[d_pert]

Thanks for the suggestions.

The iPad is not involved in the audio path at all, so there's no connection between the iPad local audio system (incl its volume control buttons), and the remote control volume slider within the JREMOTE app which just drives the MC Internal Volume function remotely over wifi.

I actually do have a USB-UIRT IR receiver set up, but when I put away my traditional NAD preamp, I also forfeited its IR remote; I had mapped some of that remote's transport controls to MC functions, etc.

I may look at another IR hand unit, yes. Although, that would be introducing more gadgets despite having found that JREMOTE on the iPad covers all the bases already.

I have to say, JREMOTE is totally awesome; best media-related GUI experience I've had. Gorgeous!

[ferday]

The buttons are 1/16 which is a huge grain

Unfortunately Apple banned the use of apps that hack the volume buttons quite some time ago.  I used to have one called volume steps or something that allowed you to change the granularity of the buttons in the settings menu which means it worked with all apps as well.  But alas big brother knows best and we are left with either a 1/16 or the unpredictable touch slider (note: jail breaking works if you do that to your gear)

If you turn on Volume limit in settings you can adjust the granularity of the buttons (setting volume limit to 50% also fine tunes the hardware buttons to 1/32) but of course, you lose that 50% in total volume so it's a no win for most situations

I know the JRemote devs had talked about a +\- fine tune at some point but I guess had bigger things to tackle

[RD James]

I spent some time thinking about this last night, and reading over the topic again with fresh eyes, it seems there are a few separate things being discussed.
 
d_pert's problem seems to be specifically with the JRemote app's touchscreen controls, and not a JRiver problem.
I find JRemote's controls difficult to use as well. They are very sensitive, and tend to jump when I release my finger.
A 44mm slider on my iPhone screen is too small to cover the full 0-100% range.
I don't think that the solution is to change the volume curve in JRiver, but adding plus and minus buttons at the ends of the slider in JRemote would really help.

I'm not sure what would actually fix the slider.
Perhaps make it act like a jogwheel that affects the rate of change instead of direct volume control?
Remove direct control of the slider and make it acceleration-based so that slow movements would only cover 10% of the scale, faster movements cover 25% and very fast movements cover 50% of the scale.
Probably lots of trial and error required to see what feels right, or maybe let people set it themselves but I think that would work.
 
 
There are also changes I would like to see in JRiver.
Everything from 20-100% moves in 0.5dB steps.
10-20% moves in 1.5dB steps.
0-10% moves in 4.5dB steps down to -95.5dB.
 
What about a full-scale linear volume option?
0dB to -100dB in 0.5dB steps.

[mojave]

There are also changes I would like to see in JRiver.
Everything from 20-100% moves in 0.5dB steps.
10-20% moves in 1.5dB steps.
0-10% moves in 4.5dB steps down to -95.5dB.
 
What about a full-scale linear volume option?
0dB to -100dB in 0.5dB steps.

The louder a system is able to get the more likely you will spend time in the lower volume levels. I can go to about 136 dB in my system and still don't need any finer control below 20%. I'm trying to figure out when someone would need .5 dB increments down low. Many systems will already be almost silent by then. It takes a 10 dB difference to perceive the volume as being doubled or halved. Generally people can't detect lower than a 1 dB change. For some it take up to a 5 dB change to notice a difference.

If someone is always below 20% with the internal volume control, then they can just add volume in PEQ and that takes care of the issue.

The current system works similar to a gamma curve for a display. A display comes out of darkness faster at low light levels due to how we perceive light.

[flac.rules]

It takes a 10 dB difference to perceive the volume as being doubled or halved. Generally people can't detect lower than a 1 dB change. For some it take up to a 5 dB change to notice a difference.

In general yes, but this changes somewhat on the "edges" where the outer haircells are operating at "max or min", (maybe less than 40 and more than 100 db? i don't quite remember now). At the lower levels the doubling is "quicker", that is less dBs for a subjective doubling. Maybe a bit nitpicky for the sake of a volume slider though

I don't see a problem per se with a custom controller, if people want to play with that, I am not going to say I know better what suits them the most, but I am unsure if it is worth the time implementing.

[RD James]

The louder a system is able to get the more likely you will spend time in the lower volume levels. I can go to about 136 dB in my system and still don't need any finer control below 20%. I'm trying to figure out when someone would need .5 dB increments down low. Many systems will already be almost silent by then. It takes a 10 dB difference to perceive the volume as being doubled or halved. Generally people can't detect lower than a 1 dB change. For some it take up to a 5 dB change to notice a difference.

If someone is always below 20% with the internal volume control, then they can just add volume in PEQ and that takes care of the issue.

The current system works similar to a gamma curve for a display. A display comes out of darkness faster at low light levels due to how we perceive light.

The current loudness calibration options, where the minimum setting you can use is 83dB, means that I'm forced into the under 20% range where I have limited control and everything jumps in big steps: http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=101599