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[imeric]

For the "Do not record programs that have been recorded in the past" to work properly I believe some changes are required.

To clarify boolean expressions and everyone understands what I'm talking about...:
TRUE AND TRUE = TRUE
TRUE AND FALSE = FALSE
FALSE AND FALSE = FALSE
TRUE OR TRUE = TRUE
TRUE OR FALSE = TRUE
FALSE OR FALSE = FALSE
FALSE OR FALSE OR TRUE = TRUE
TRUE AND TRUE AND FALSE = FALSE And so on...

When I refer to ANY: Any = OR
and ALL: ALL = AND

So the goal here is to ensure you don't record the same show twice.  If you want to achieve this you need to check against ANY of the following fields depending on the quality of your EPG.

Right now (unless proven otherwise and based on feedback) It wants ALL of the fields to be EQUAL to reject a repeat which is not very useful..Actually it defeats the purpose of having more than one field...Especially if your EPG is not consistent...

1. If you're EPG is good and you get Season and Episode Numbers consistently then you could only check those two fields or even just one of the 2...If you use 2 the logic would be as follows:

((previously aired SEASON) EQUALS (current SEASON)) OR ((previously aired EPISODE) EQUALS (current EPISODE))
=TRUE AND TRUE = TRUE Then the two shows would NOT be added in the to be recorded list..
**PLEASE NOTE THAT WHEN THE LOGIC IS TRUE THEN THE POSSIBLE REPEAT SHOULD NOT BE RECORDED.

Now let's say getting Season and Episode is a hit & miss...Sometimes you get it sometimes you don't...

Let's say you got Season and Episode info for the first airing but not the repeat...Therefore those 2 fields are not sufficient you need to check against something else...

In most cases (for Rovi anyway...The description is accurate) so that would be your next field. You would then check Description as well and it would go like this:
With the current AND Logic:

((previously aired DESCRIPTION) EQUALS (current DESCRIPTION)) AND ((previously aired Season) EQUALS (current Season)) AND ((previously aired Episode) EQUALS (current Episode))
=TRUE AND FALSE AND FALSE = FALSE Then the two shows will be added in the to be recorded list..NOT WANTED

However:

((previously aired DESCRIPTION) EQUALS (current DESCRIPTION)) OR ((previously aired Season) EQUALS (current Season)) OR ((previously aired Episode) EQUALS (current Episode))
=TRUE OR FALSE OR FALSE = TRUE Then the two shows will NOT be added in the to be recorded list..WANTED

And so on...The more conditions the more restrictive..

Please give my ideas some thoughts and try to have an open mind about it...If you think I am wrong, which is more than possible because I may have missed how it works under the hood as I didn't code this, please give me example(s) as to why this wouldn't work and where my logic above will fail.

[RoderickGI]

((previously aired SEASON) EQUALS (current SEASON)) OR ((previously aired EPISODE) EQUALS (current EPISODE))
=TRUE AND TRUE = TRUE Then the two shows would NOT be added in the to be recorded list..
**PLEASE NOTE THAT WHEN THE LOGIC IS TRUE THEN THE POSSIBLE REPEAT SHOULD NOT BE RECORDED.

Okay. So let's say you are regularly recording a series, have recorded all 22 Episodes of Season 8, and are now up to Season 9, Episode 6. Let's assume the Series is "Friends".
Values are shown in {squiggly brackets}

(  (previously aired SEASON{8}) EQUALS (current SEASON{9}){FALSE}  ) OR (  (previously aired EPISODE{6}) EQUALS (current EPISODE{6}){TRUE}  )
FALSE OR TRUE = TRUE. There is a match, so Season 9 Episode 6 will not be recorded. FAIL.

Aside from that, ANY series with either a Season 9 OR Episode 6 will be a match, unless you specify the [Series] that the programs belong to. You have not done that in the equation above. So you at least need to wrap each test above with an AND statement to the [Series], such as

(  [Series]="Friends"{TRUE} AND ((previously aired SEASON{8}) EQUALS (current SEASON{9}){FALSE}) OR ((previously aired EPISODE{6}) EQUALS (current EPISODE{6}){TRUE}){TRUE}  )
TRUE AND (FALSE OR TRUE){TRUE} = TRUE Again there is a match, so Season 9 Episode 6 will not be recorded. FAIL.
So your test fails for the reason I mentioned above; An Episode from a previous Season of the Series will match the same Episode number from the current Season.

The only way to ensure that you have a unique match is to use an equation such as;
(  ([Series]="Friends"{TRUE}) AND (previously aired SEASON{8}) EQUALS (current SEASON{9}){FALSE}) AND ((previously aired EPISODE{6}) EQUALS (current EPISODE{6}){TRUE})
TRUE AND FALSE AND TRUE = FALSE. There is no match, so Season 9 Episode 6 will be recorded. Which is the correct result.

Of course the other equation that I mentioned in the previous thread which will provide a unique match is;
(  ([Series]="Friends"{TRUE}) AND (previously aired EPISODE NAME{The One With The Halloween Party}) EQUALS (current EPISODE NAME{The One With The Male Nanny}){FALSE} )
TRUE AND FALSE = FALSE. There is no match, so Season 9 Episode 6 will be recorded. Which is the correct result.

Yaobing gave you a simpler example in the previous thread;

Just imagine if you choose to compare Series Name OR Episode Name, then you will only be able to record one episode for many series.  For example, "NBA Basketball" is the series name for all such games.  If I recorded "Chicago Bulls vs xxx" yesterday, and today I want to record "Houston Rocket vs. xxx", MC will not record it because it finds a match already (both shows have the same series name).

You can't argue with that.

In most cases (for Rovi anyway...The description is accurate) so that would be your next field.

If Rovi EPG descriptions are accurate, always consistent, and remain so over time, then I suspect that Rovi is unique. Certainly any OTA EPG Description data is completely at the whim of the broadcasters. In fact, what does "accurate" even mean for a description? There are many ways to describe a program, and copyright law actually requires descriptions to be rewritten manually to avoid a violation. Many different descriptions of a program could all be "accurate", in that they represent the content of the program. The is no official source of descriptions for TV programs, and they change by geographic location, or on re-release, or for many other reasons.

So I have to ask, if you are recording Season 10 of a Series, for which you have recorded all Seasons in the past, and the broadcaster mixes in episodes from Season 2, are you completely sure that Rovi will be using exactly the same description for episodes from Season 2 as they did eight years earlier? You don't think that Rovi may have changed the description just a little bit? Perhaps to indicate that these are Classic episodes, so they add that information to the description? Really?

[imeric]

Okay. So let's say you are regularly recording a series, have recorded all 22 Episodes of Season 8, and are now up to Season 9, Episode 6. Let's assume the Series is "Friends".
Values are shown in {squiggly brackets}

(  (previously aired SEASON{8}) EQUALS (current SEASON{9}){FALSE}  ) OR (  (previously aired EPISODE{6}) EQUALS (current EPISODE{6}){TRUE}  )
FALSE OR TRUE = TRUE. There is a match, so Season 9 Episode 6 will not be recorded. FAIL.

So You take for granted you get accurate season and episode numbers, then in that case and in this particular scenario I totally agree with you!!  You need an AND condition.

Aside from that, ANY series with either a Season 9 OR Episode 6 will be a match, unless you specify the [Series] that the programs belong to. You have not done that in the equation above. So you at least need to wrap each test above with an AND statement to the [Series], such as

(  [Series]="Friends"{TRUE} AND ((previously aired SEASON{8}) EQUALS (current SEASON{9}){FALSE}) OR ((previously aired EPISODE{6}) EQUALS (current EPISODE{6}){TRUE}){TRUE}  )
TRUE AND (FALSE OR TRUE){TRUE} = TRUE Again there is a match, so Season 9 Episode 6 will not be recorded. FAIL.
So your test fails for the reason I mentioned above; An Episode from a previous Season of the Series will match the same Episode number from the current Season.

The only way to ensure that you have a unique match is to use an equation such as;
(  ([Series]="Friends"{TRUE}) AND (previously aired SEASON{8}) EQUALS (current SEASON{9}){FALSE}) AND ((previously aired EPISODE{6}) EQUALS (current EPISODE{6}){TRUE})
TRUE AND FALSE AND TRUE = FALSE. There is no match, so Season 9 Episode 6 will be recorded. Which is the correct result.
Of course the other equation that I mentioned in the previous thread which will provide a unique match is;
(  ([Series]="Friends"{TRUE}) AND (previously aired EPISODE NAME{The One With The Halloween Party}) EQUALS (current EPISODE NAME{The One With The Male Nanny}){FALSE} )
TRUE AND FALSE = FALSE. There is no match, so Season 9 Episode 6 will be recorded. Which is the correct result.

...You're confusing different subscriptions here...You will not have the same subscriptions for the same show...Seinfeld or Friends = 2 different subscriptions with different criterias..

Yaobing gave you a simpler example in the previous thread;You can't argue with that.

If Rovi EPG descriptions are accurate, always consistent, and remain so over time, then I suspect that Rovi is unique. Certainly any OTA EPG Description data is completely at the whim of the broadcasters. In fact, what does "accurate" even mean for a description? There are many ways to describe a program, and copyright law actually requires descriptions to be rewritten manually to avoid a violation. Many different descriptions of a program could all be "accurate", in that they represent the content of the program. The is no official source of descriptions for TV programs, and they change by geographic location, or on re-release, or for many other reasons.

So I have to ask, if you are recording Season 10 of a Series, for which you have recorded all Seasons in the past, and the broadcaster mixes in episodes from Season 2, are you completely sure that Rovi will be using exactly the same description for episodes from Season 2 as they did eight years earlier? You don't think that Rovi may have changed the description just a little bit? Perhaps to indicate that these are Classic episodes, so they add that information to the description? Really?

I didn't see that anywhere where was this posted?

Although true..When you would normally select the option (as per the subject line) is to avoid similar cases such as my O.J. issue....Not a show you recorded a year or + ago...
I totally agree with you RoderickGI... You're coming from an approach where your EPG is 100% accurate..I was taking the approach where it isn't and you want to manoeuver around it to not record repeats of a recent show that has lots of repeats so my examples still hold and so does yours.



So the compromise here would be to add both conditions...Again using the same logic as the smart lists...Yaobing is this feasible?

[RoderickGI]

So You take for granted you get accurate season and episode numbers, then in that case and in this particular scenario I totally agree with you!!  You need an AND condition. ...

No, I'm not assuming I will get accurate Season and Episode numbers, but I am relying on it. If they are inaccurate the result of the rule just gets worse. However, with my rules, additional copies of programs are recorded, rather than having recordings missed. As I said on the previous thread, I prefer to record extra unwanted copies of programs, rather than miss a recording.

You're confusing different subscriptions here...You will not have the same subscriptions for the same show...Seinfeld or Friends = 2 different subscriptions with different criterias..

No, I'm just testing different potential rules for the "Do Not Record Programs That Have Been Recorded" flag. All my examples would be applied to the "Friends" series, trying to decide whether to record Season 9 Episode 6 or not, given that so far you have recordings up to Season 9 Episode 5. The example rules give differing results.

My rule works, but records repeats if the EPG data is inaccurate or incomplete. Your rule, using OR, doesn't work, except in the very special case where Season and Episode data is correct or missing or wrong, but the Description is an exact match to the previous showing of a program, which I believe would only happen for recent showings of the program.

I didn't see that anywhere where was this posted?

There is a link above the quote I inserted that takes you to where Yaobing posted the "NBA Basketball" example.

Although true..When you would normally select the option (as per the subject line) is to avoid similar cases such as my O.J. issue....

You seem to be focused on never recording a repeat of a recent program. But that is only a subset of the conditions that rule is supposed to detect. It needs to work for older programs as well, which may be repeated months or years after the first recording.

By the way, if you do want to accept or reject a second showing based purely on the description, then you should just test purely on the Description. Including Season and Episode numbers in your OR example actually adds no value, as even if Season and Episode numbers are wrong or missing, you want to have a match based solely on the Description. Leave Season and Episode out of the rule and you have what you want.

But beware then of generic episode descriptions, that happen from time to time and are often identical for completely different episodes of a series. Generic descriptions typically just describe the Series overall, and not the episode.

[imeric]

The reason I started this topic in the first place was to limit the number of repeats being recorded as much as possible as I need the colossus prime-time to record live sports events.  Which is different for you....You don't mind the repeats, I do.

I think we have beaten this topic to death, I agree with your concrete examples and points but I also think mine makes sense and are not limited to "special cases"..

I will let others chime in on this and let Yaobing decide if any improvements can be made.

[imeric]

Still struggling with this with MC22's latest version trying to record the whole repeats of Fear the walking dead on AMC....

I always use standard view to record TV shows and I love it...Good way to see what's going on!

However....I know MC is smart enough to not record repeats once recorded but it would be nice to show it in the to be recorded list...It knows a show is planned to be recorded and another one is coming up afterwards but why does it need to be showed it in the to be recorded list?? Maybe a different icon to help?

And we definitely need more than 14 days in the to be recorded list.

Thx!

AND the season and episode rules are not working only the description and name ones are.  If I use season and episode nothing comes up....This would be the logical choice when you get accurate season and episode info.

[imeric]

Bump?

The "do not record programs that have been recorded in the past" logic does not work for me at all no matter what combinations of Name, Series Name, Season Number and Episode Number I choose...

NOT TRUE...It works if I check all 5.

If I select both Season and Episode Number I should see all the to be recorded shows listed but none show up, If I choose Name, all but Season 2 Episode 10-11-12 don't show up.
If I choose Series Names AND/OR Description then I get all but season 2 episode 10-11-12.

EDITS...Those shows were recorded so MY BAD...,.

I understand I see repeats of upcoming shows since they have NOT been recorded yet and if a higher priority conflict it will not be recorded. Which in my case is Wanted...

So my only issue here is ...Since I get accurate Season and Episode numbers this would be my choice but it's not working for me...

Can anyone else replicate this?

[CountryBumkin]

I can't use "Season and Episode" either as "do not record" parameters because when the TV show is being recorded, there are no Season numbers (sometimes no Episode numbers either) in the EPG data for JRiver to compare with.

It is after the "Get TV & Movie Info" task is run that Season numbers and Episode numbers are added the database.

So I have to use "Name and Description" where this information is included in the EPG data.
This works pretty well. I don't see how JRiver can improve on this if the "compare data" is not available at the time of the recording.

[imeric]

I can't use "Season and Episode" either as "do not record" parameters because when the TV show is being recorded, there are no Season numbers (sometimes no Episode numbers either) in the EPG data for JRiver to compare with.

Are you using Rovi?  I thought we were using the same EPG provider which provides Season and Episode Info... I know Rovi does not provide it and is not what I use...

I'm sure mine has it as I see it in the xml file that gets downloaded and I see it in MC as per the snapshot attached. At this point MC does not run the Get tv & Movie info if I understand this correctly since the show wasn't recorded yet...

I've made a few important edits to my earlier post.  In a nutshell it works if I select ALL parameters under the "do not record programs..." option which still does not make sense to me if Season and Episode info is present in the EPG...


Yaobing could you please share the current logic used?  Looks like it's an OR between Name, Series Name and Description and will flag to not record if ANY of them are equal to a previously recorded show...

Which works fine but Looks like it's totally ignoring Season and Episode info for me right now...

[Yaobing]

Do not record shows that have been recorded - the logic is, all fields that you have selected must match in order for two shows to be considered the same.  In other words, the logical keyword is AND.  You can not use OR here because that will basically drop most of the shows that should be recorded.

We also compare program ID (if exists) directly, before we get into the Name, Description, etc.  If the program ID match, there is no point comparing any other things.

[Yaobing]

The only case in which OR might make sense is "Name" OR "Description".  In other words, when text fields are involved.  The text fields can be changed from time to time, thus a strict AND logic could result in duplicates being recorded.  I emphasize the word "might" because there are many cases in which using OR will result in missed recordings.

[imeric]

Thanks Yaobing. 

I think the AND logic makes sense but that does not explain why Season and Episode are not taken into account in my case...

Logic works only for Name, Series Name and description for me.

The only case in which OR might make sense is "Name" OR "Description".  In other words, when text fields are involved.  The text fields can be changed from time to time, thus a strict AND logic could result in duplicates being recorded.

To your point this is EXACTLY why I would prefer to rely on Season and Episode ONLY as I agree chances of typos are a lot less than the other 3 fields for EPG data

[CountryBumkin]

Are you using Rovi?  I thought we were using the same EPG provider which provides Season and Episode Info... I know Rovi does not provide it and is not what I use...

Which works fine but Looks like it's totally ignoring Season and Episode info for me right now...

Your right. The Season and Episode numbers are coming with the EPG data (using SD for the source).

[RoderickGI]

For me, the best selection of fields to check for programs recorded previously is;

Series:
Because this field is almost always present, except where there is no episode name and then it gets put into the [Name] tag (I think that still happens, not sure - yes, confirmed in my current EPG data.) It is almost always spelt correctly, and rarely, though occasionally, has embellishments added to it, such as NEW* or similar. If the EPG data includes Season and Episode numbers, this field seems to always be present and accurate.

Season:
If this field is present in the EPG data, and is accurate, you can't get better data. It helps if it is consistent with TheTVDB, even when TheTVDB does something silly, like use the year instead of a Season number. Sometimes the Season field isn't present even when the Episode field is, depending on your data source. But mostly both are there, if either is.

Episode:
If this field is present in the EPG data, and is accurate, you can't get better data. It helps if it is consistent with TheTVDB, even when TheTVDB does something silly, like using an absolute Episode number instead of a number within a Season.

With accurate data, the combination of Series, Season, and Episode absolutely identifies the program, with no doubts.
If only Season and Episode are used, MC could match to any Series that has had that program recorded, so that would be no use.

The Name field is often not accurate for repeat showings, and in my part of the world it is often embellished, or even deliberately changed or removed for repeats, so that viewers won't know that they are going to be watching a repeat. The actual repeat flag is almost never set as well. I may be cynical, but I still think I am right when I say the broadcasters hope that people will just watch the repeat episode anyway, and hence see the commercials broadcast with it. Also, I believe that the way viewer numbers are calculated in Australia gives a heavy emphasis on viewers watching the first part of a program, so if they start watching, then realise at some time that they have seen it and change channels, it is still recorded as watched, inflating the viewer counts.

The Description field is rarely included for repeat showings, and is often changed. Often it is just the Series name for repeats. It is useless for comparisons with previous recordings.

So, use Series, Season, Episode for the "Do not record shows that have been recorded" settings.

We also compare program ID (if exists) directly, before we get into the Name, Description, etc.  If the program ID match, there is no point comparing any other things.

This is interesting and could be a problem. I have thought that before but haven't gotten around to commenting, because my current EPG never includes Program ID, and neither do any of my recordings.

Which Program ID do you use Yaobing? Rovi and Gracenote use different Program IDs from memory. In the past there have been other unique Program ID sources. IceTV in Australia have their own system. Some sources do use the same Program ID, such as Zap2it uses Gracenote, but then Gracenote own zap2it. TheTVDB has a Series ID which is stored in a separate tag in MC, and they seem to use the Series ID in combination with Season and Episode to uniquely identify a program, but they also seem to have an internal Program ID, shown in the URLs used for individual episodes. But MC doesn't gather that Program ID anyway, and it wouldn't be in any EPG data prior to a recording being made.

The Program ID format that is in the EPG data will depend on the EPG data source. If a user changes EPG data source, or the provider does as when Microsoft changed from Gracenote to Rovi, the Program ID format changes, so all previously recorded programs will have the "wrong" Program ID.

I suspect that now that Series, Season, and Episode data is available to those using the "Do not record shows that have been recorded" settings, Program ID shouldn't be used as an overriding selection criteria. Perhaps make it one of the selectable fields instead, for those users who get the field in their EPG source. Or remove it from the selection criteria altogether. Either way, it shouldn't override a match by Series, Season, and Episode.

Just my thoughts, as usual. 

[imeric]

If only Season and Episode are used, MC could match to any Series that has had that program recorded, so that would be no use.

Aaaahhhh that is it thanks!!!... I kinda forgot about the fact the "do not record programs recorded in the past" check is not using what is specified in the rules and only checks against the recorded shows...So it's working as it should!! As I do have tons of recordings with Season and episode numbers explaining why nothing shows up in the to be recorded list... !!

The Description field is rarely included for repeat showings, and is often changed. Often it is just the Series name for repeats. It is useless for comparisons with previous recordings.

So, use Series Name, Season, Episode for the "Do not record shows that have been recorded" settings.

Yep. I think this makes the most sense...

Thx for all the tips!!

[Yaobing]

This is interesting and could be a problem. I have thought that before but haven't gotten around to commenting, because my current EPG never includes Program ID, and neither do any of my recordings.

Which Program ID do you use Yaobing? Rovi and Gracenote use different Program IDs from memory. In the past there have been other unique Program ID sources. IceTV in Australia have their own system. Some sources do use the same Program ID, such as Zap2it uses Gracenote, but then Gracenote own zap2it. TheTVDB has a Series ID which is stored in a separate tag in MC, and they seem to use the Series ID in combination with Season and Episode to uniquely identify a program, but they also seem to have an internal Program ID, shown in the URLs used for individual episodes. But MC doesn't gather that Program ID anyway, and it wouldn't be in any EPG data prior to a recording being made.

The Program ID format that is in the EPG data will depend on the EPG data source. If a user changes EPG data source, or the provider does as when Microsoft changed from Gracenote to Rovi, the Program ID format changes, so all previously recorded programs will have the "wrong" Program ID.

I suspect that now that Series, Season, and Episode data is available to those using the "Do not record shows that have been recorded" settings, Program ID shouldn't be used as an overriding selection criteria. Perhaps make it one of the selectable fields instead, for those users who get the field in their EPG source. Or remove it from the selection criteria altogether. Either way, it shouldn't override a match by Series, Season, and Episode.

Just my thoughts, as usual. 

We use program ID only if both the current EPG program and recorded show have program ID.  If either is empty, we use other method.

[RoderickGI]

That is what I understood Yaobing, which is why it will never be a problem for me while I am using my current EPG source.

But I thought it could be a problem, one which would be difficult to diagnose, for any users who have always used the Microsoft sourced EPG, since the Program ID format changed for them last year. Probably still not an issue, since the Program ID format differences will probably mean there is no match, and the second method will be used anyway. But making the Program ID matching visible to users may still be a good idea.

Imeric, I'm glad that made sense. 

[imeric]

In MC, I deleted a bunch of Seinfeld Episodes that were recorded in SD previously.  I want to record only ones that are now airing in HD.

I'm using using Series Name, Season and Episode as suggested by RoderickGI but nothing shows up in the to be recorded list.  I assume it has something to do with MC not wanting to record previously deleted files having the same season and episode numbers as upcoming ones.  How do I reset this for this subscription so that it will record HD episodes?

Thx

I posted it here: http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php/topic,73561.0.html