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[Kenji]

When i  record in DSD format. It play's back distorted.
This is only a recent problem. As I've recorded loads of Album's from CD to DSD and it's only in the last couple of weeks that  it has started to come out distorted.
Same if i cover Formats to DSD.
I even tried Uninstalling and reinstalling JRiver, but to no avail.

Can anyone help?

[RD James]

1. Check your volume settings. DSD has to be played back at 100% volume on the computer.
2. You should never rip CDs to DSD because CDs are a 16-bit format and DSD is a 1-bit format. Use FLAC or your lossless format of choice.

[dtc]

1. Check your volume settings. DSD has to be played back at 100% volume on the computer.

I know someone else reported this, but the volume settings should have not effect when bitstreaming a DSD signal. On my system I have not found any volume setting that effect  DSD bitstreaming. If you see this problem, what settings cause the problem?

[Awesome Donkey]

2. You should never rip CDs to DSD because CDs are a 16-bit format and DSD is a 1-bit format. Use FLAC or your lossless format of choice.

This can't be stressed enough. You don't gain anything converting PCM to DSD and all you're doing is wasting hard drive space. If you want DSD output, just open DSP Studio and set the output encoding to the DSD option you want. This way it's done on-the-fly without the need to rip CDs (PCM) into DSD.

[RD James]

I know someone else reported this, but the volume settings should have not effect when bitstreaming a DSD signal. On my system I have not found any volume setting that effect  DSD bitstreaming. If you see this problem, what settings cause the problem?

It depends entirely on the DAC driver and how JRiver is configured.

[dtc]

It depends entirely on the DAC driver and how JRiver is configured.

That is not how I understand bitstreaming, although I could be wrong.  What JRiver configuration do you think allows JRiver to change the volume of a bitstreaming DSD signal? If MC is actually trying to change the volume of a DSD bitstream, that seems like a bug to me.

[Awesome Donkey]

Right click on the volume icon (below the back/play/forward buttons), select "Enable Volume When Bitstreaming".

[glynor]

That is not how I understand bitstreaming, although I could be wrong.  What JRiver configuration do you think allows JRiver to change the volume of a bitstreaming DSD signal? If MC is actually trying to change the volume of a DSD bitstream, that seems like a bug to me.

This only works with particular DACs especially designed to work with the feature. It applies the volume adjustment after the analog conversion, inside the DAC. At least supposedly. The DACs are, of course, black boxes so who knows what they're actually doing. But the feature "tells the DAC" to set the volume. MC does not (and cannot, as you indicated) change the volume of the bitstreamed source data.

[dtc]

This only works with particular DACs especially designed to work with the feature. It applies the volume adjustment after the analog conversion, inside the DAC. At least supposedly. The DACs are, of course, black boxes so who knows what they're actually doing. But the feature "tells the DAC" to set the volume. MC does not (and cannot, as you indicated) change the volume of the bitstreamed source data.

Thanks Glynor. That makes sense. Most DACs do not change the volume but some are now built to replace the pre-amp. This option would make sense for those DACs, although I would think that, even for those DACs, most of them do not expect the player to send volume information.

Since DSD is sent either native or at high sample rates, I presume the manufacturer's driver would indicate if it can accept the volume information.

Do you know what the details of how that volume information is sent?

[glynor]

Well, I didn't remember all of the details. For the record, I think bitstreaming is silly, and usually counter productive. But, I looked it up and here's the deal:
https://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=88642.0

exaSound* released an plugin for their DACs that can sync the volume control on the DAC directly to JRiver Media Center, if set to use System or Application Volume control. So, you turn the volume control up or down inside MC with your little slider. The audio driver actually does nothing to the incoming audio being fed to the DAC (no digital volume is ever applied, no matter the source audio format), but it communicates with the DAC and tells it to "turn the knob" and stay in sync. Likewise, you can actually turn the physical knob yourself (or use the IR remote for the DAC) and turn it up or down physically, and the plugin will sync this back to the computer and make MC's slider correct.

Worked, I guess. The problem was, it didn't work when you had bitstreaming turned on, because MC "disabled" the volume control UI mechanism. So this fancy driver thingy couldn't do it's sync magic anymore.

So, all that option does is force the UI to re-enable the volume control slider, and "pretend" as though it wasn't bitstreaming, so that this fancy DAC driver can do its "magic sync" thing. If you don't have one of these DACs, the volume slider won't actually work to do anything, and the whole system won't work at all if you have MC in Internal Volume mode (where MC itself applies the volume changes, instead of letting the Windows mixer do it, which exaSound's driver can manage).

*  I didn't look hard enough, but I also vaguely remember that there may have been at least one other DAC manufacturer that had something similar...

[RD James]

I actually meant it the other way around, where things outside of JRiver's control can break bitstreaming.
With some DACs the ASIO volume level is linked to the system volume level.

When I play DSD over ASIO nothing I change in JRiver affects the system volume level because it ignores those controls.
If volume was at less than 100% I have to change it in Windows to fix DSD playback.

If I play DSD in WASAPI, there is an option to maximize system volume level when starting playback which ensures that bitstreaming works.
I think that's only something which will affect DoP playback and not native DSD.

[glynor]

there is an option to maximize system volume level when starting playback which ensures that bitstreaming works.

Maximize system volume when playback starts isn't for bitstreaming. I don't know much about DSD DACs, but with other bitstreaming formats, it doesn't matter if that option is on or off. Volume control is ignored by the OS when bitstreaming. The connection to the DAC isn't going through the Windows audio subsystem or mixer. It can't be, because it isn't PCM audio, which is the only thing it knows how to deal with. It is just streaming the raw binary data to the DAC.

Same goes with MC in Internal volume mode. When you bitstream, the whole audio engine of MC is bypassed. The Maximize system volume when playback starts option would have no effect.

The Maximize system volume when playback starts option is very nice, and I think it should be the default when in Internal Volume mode (but I suppose therein lies the rub), but it doesn't do that. It does this:
https://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=86805.msg601437#msg601437

That's great, because I can have MC set to Internal Volume, and it'll automatically set the System Volume to 100% when it starts playing, and then back down to what it was before when it stops playing. So volume control in my games and all my other applications still works "normally" through system volume (and doesn't blast me out of my chair) but MC can use its own internal volume control, which is higher quality, correctly.

It works nice, but it has nothing to do at all with bitstreaming.

But, again, I'm speaking of experience with HDMI bitstreaming, not DSD, so I suppose you could be talking about some wacky thing with DSD USB DACs, but I don't think so... It sure shouldn't require you to set the system volume to 100% to not break bitstreaming. Why? That's the dumb. Fix your drivers. It works just fine bitstreaming DTS-MA via HDMI.

[glynor]

But, again, I'm speaking of experience with HDMI bitstreaming, not DSD, so I suppose you could be talking about some wacky thing with DSD USB DACs, but I don't think so... It sure shouldn't require you to set the system volume to 100% to not break bitstreaming. Why? That's the dumb. Fix your drivers. It works just fine bitstreaming DTS-MA via HDMI.

Oh wait... Are there DSD DACs that use the default USB Audio driver in Windows? So, you don't have to download a driver from the manufacturer at all, they don't develop one?

I get how this could work. DSD is packed in a PCM "container" so it could pass through the Windows audio subsystem, as long as you didn't let it muck with it (in exclusive mode).

But, I mean... Come on. Write a driver. That's not a feature, that's... They don't have the expertise to build a driver. The driver could do it the same way (sending the PCM container down the wire to the device), so it doesn't have to actually do much (and could just internally piggyback on the built in USB audio driver) but you know, you can control stuff like this then. Maximize and turn off volume control if you need to when DSD audio starts coming through, and whatnot. That feels like minimum viable product territory to me.

I suppose in that circumstance, the Maximize device volume option could come into play. But why wouldn't it be better to just disable the system volume altogether then and put MC into disabled mode? You're going to have to use a hardware volume control when bitstreaming anyway (or it will blast you out of your chair, one way or the other), so disabling the computer volume control entirely and just using the hardware ones seems like it makes the most sense. Right?

[dtc]

Oh wait... Are there DSD DACs that use the default USB Audio driver in Windows? So, you don't have to download a driver from the manufacturer at all, they don't develop one?

I get how this could work. DSD is packed in a PCM "container" so it could pass through the Windows audio subsystem, as long as you didn't let it muck with it (in exclusive mode).

There are two modes for DSD - native and DoP. Native requires an ASIO driver which the manufacturer supplies. DoP uses ASIO or DoP and DoP requires high sample rates (176K or 352K). Windows only has a class 1 usb driver which does not operate above 96K, so the manufacturer has to supply a class 2 audio usb driver for DoP. So, any DSD DAC has to come with a driver from the manufacturer, even if it is just a class 2 audio driver to use with WASAPI.  Many supply an ASIO driver.

I do not understand exactly what volume information MC could be sending through the usb connection. DoP at 176 Khz in is sync with the 2.822 MHz DSD signal. If you add extra  volume signals there would not be enough audio signal for the DAC. The DoP signal is made to look like PCM  with 8 bits that identify it as DoP and 16 bits of 1s and 0s. There is no place in the DoP spec for volume information. So, I really do not understand how Exabyte, or anyone, is sending volume information through the usb. I guess it boils down to how the volume information is send over usb.

[RD James]

Maximize system volume when playback starts isn't for bitstreaming. I don't know much about DSD DACs, but with other bitstreaming formats, it doesn't matter if that option is on or off. Volume control is ignored by the OS when bitstreaming.

DoP playback is not bitstreaming though.
It's a DSD bitstream inside a PCM container.
As far as the system is concerned it's just playing back a 176.4 kHz PCM signal so volume control is not disabled.
 
Native DSD is probably bitstreamed as you expect, but DoP is not.
It's not a driver issue, it's a limitation of the DoP format.

Perhaps JRiver should set the device volume to 100% whenever DoP playback is started though?

[dtc]

DoP playback is not bitstreaming though.
It's a DSD bitstream inside a PCM container.
As far as the system is concerned it's just playing back a 176.4 kHz PCM signal so volume control is not disabled.
 
Native DSD is probably bitstreamed as you expect, but DoP is not.
It's not a driver issue, it's a limitation of the DoP format.

Perhaps JRiver should set the device volume to 100% whenever DoP playback is started though?

To use DoP you need to set bitstreaming to DSD and use either WASAPI or ASIO. Either should bypass the Windows audio engine. At least with my system, using WASAPI with bitstreaming set to DSD works no matter what the volume setting or the WASAPI setting are.   However, with the problem you report, I believe MC may be missing something when using WASAPI and DoP, at least for some drivers. Note my comments refer to playing DSD files, not converting PCM to DSD using the DSP Studio output options.
 
It would be nice to nail down exactly what settings fail for you.  What volume are you using (Internal, System, Application) when it fails? Does using Disable Volume fix your problem? Does it matter if you check the WASAPI Maximize Playback Volume option? What DAC are you using?

[RD James]

To use DoP you need to set bitstreaming to DSD and use either WASAPI or ASIO. Either should bypass the Windows audio engine.

JRiver calls it "bitstreaming" but it is not bitstreaming in a way that bypasses the system volume control.
Windows doesn't know that anything is being "bitstreamed" it just thinks that there is 176.4 kHz PCM being played.
It sounds like there may be special handling for formats like native DSD or DTS-HD but that does not apply to DoP.

Many DACs link the ASIO volume level to the system volume level, so although it bypasses Windows, it's still affected by the system volume level.
Like Windows, the driver doesn't know that DoP is being played, it just thinks that 176.4 kHz PCM is being played. Only the DAC is identifying the DSD bitstream contained inside the PCM stream.
I don't think that WASAPI Exclusive disables the system volume control either. It bypasses things like the resampler but not volume control.
EDIT: It bypasses the mixer, but not the device volume. Assume that anywhere I said "system volume" I'm talking about the device volume that can be set in the system tray or the sound control panel.

At least with my system, using WASAPI with bitstreaming set to DSD works no matter what the volume setting or the WASAPI setting are.

Native DSD or DoP?
The actual system volume control, or JRiver's volume control?

JRiver's "system" volume control is not the actual system volume control.
JRiver's volume controls are disabled when it is "bitstreaming" but the system control is still in effect.

Since JRiver does not set the volume level to 100% when starting ASIO playback - the option only exists for WASAPI Exclusive - it means that DoP bitstreaming will not work if the system volume was set below 100%.
With WASAPI, enabling the maximize device volume option fixes bitstreaming. If that option is not enabled and the system volume is below 100%, bitstreaming won't work.

JRiver should be setting the device volume to 100% any time DoP or bitstreaming is enabled, whether the output is ASIO or WASAPI, and whether that option is enabled or not.
It doesn't matter for PCM playback, and it sounds like it wouldn't matter for native DSD playback, but it breaks DoP playback.

It would be nice to nail down exactly what settings fail for you.  What volume are you using (Internal, System, Application) when it fails? Does using Disable Volume fix your problem? Does it matter if you check the WASAPI Maximize Playback Volume option? What DAC are you using?

It doesn't matter what JRiver volume is set to, it's the system volume level that breaks things, because JRiver is not setting it to 100%.

[dtc]

Since JRiver does not set the volume level to 100% when starting ASIO playback - the option only exists for WASAPI Exclusive - it means that DoP bitstreaming will not work if the system volume was set below 100%.
With WASAPI, enabling the maximize device volume option fixes bitstreaming. If that option is not enabled and the system volume is below 100%, bitstreaming won't work.

DoP bitstreaming with ASIO works fine on my system no matter what the system volume is set to.

DoP bitstreaming with WASAPI works fine on my system no matter what the system volume is set to. Checking or unchecking the Maximum Device Volume option in the WASAPI setup has no effect. My system just works.

We are clearly seeing different behavior. It may be because of the implementation of the class 2 usb driver, but that is a pure guess.

For reference, my DAC is a Chord Hugo with the Chord supplied driver on MC20 on Windows 7. I typically have Volume Disabled in MC.

Just checked another system with no DSD playback capability on it. Playing straight redbook, with WASAPI, system volume has no effect when either Application or Internal volume is set. It only has effect when System volume is set in MC. With Direct Sound, however, with Application Volume set system sound does change the volume. So setting WASAPI does, on that system,  seem to change how system volume is used.

[RD James]

DoP bitstreaming with ASIO works fine on my system no matter what the system volume is set to.

Can you control the ASIO volume level at all using the system volume control though?
It's probably disabled completely, instead of only being disabled when bitstreaming DoP.

DoP bitstreaming with WASAPI works fine on my system no matter that the system volume is set to. Checking or unchecking the Maximum Device Volume option in the WASAPI setup has no effect. My system just works.

Again: the device's level in Windows, or JRiver's "system" volume level?
At all times, or only when bitstreaming DoP?
This is probably also under control of the driver. If your driver doesn't link the ASIO and system volume levels, then it probably doesn't allow volume control in WASAPI Exclusive either.

We are clearly seeing different behavior. It may be because of the implementation of the class 2 usb driver, but that is a pure guess.
For reference, my DAC is a Chord Hugo with the Chord supplied driver on MC20 on Windows 7. I typically have Volume Disabled in MC.

Just checked another system with no DSD playback capability on it. Playing straight redbook, with WASAPI, system volume has no effect when either Application or Internal volume is set. It only has effect when System volume is set in MC. With Direct Sound, however, with Application Volume set system sound does change the volume. So setting WASAPI does, on that system,  seem to change how system volume is used.

Of the five devices that I just tested, four allow volume control with WASAPI Exclusive output. Only the NVIDIA HDMI device does not. That includes a device using Windows' native USB Audio Class 1 device drivers.
WASAPI Exclusive bypasses the mixer, it does not necessarily bypass volume control.

EDIT: Make that 4/6. The on-board realtek optical output also ignores the volume control.

[dtc]

All this points to differences in the drivers. As I said, my guess is that this may be a class 2 usb  driver issue. In that case, it is hard for MC to "do the right thing" when it does not have a general case. It seems like if the driver is going to look at Windows system volume settings, it should know how to handle it correctly. If the driver is somehow doing something with that data, MC should not override it.


Regarding your five devices, what do you have MC volume set to? For me responding to Windows system volume depends on which volume I am using in MC. In particular, Application volume works with Direct Sound but not with WASAPI.  That was the difference I found. At this point I cannot tell if the difference is from MC or from the driver.

[RD James]

Nothing except JRiver and the DAC know that the 176.4kHz PCM signal being played is a DoP signal.
They just see a PCM signal, so it is reasonable for them to allow volume control.
There's nothing "wrong" with the driver for doing this.
 
Some device drivers - USB or not - allow volume control with WASAPI Exclusive, some do not. Same goes for ASIO.
The assumption should be that it might be possible, so JRiver should always set the device volume to 100% when it is bitstreaming or encoding to DoP.
If your driver ignores the volume setting, then it makes no difference.
An option to always maximize the ASIO device volume whether you're bitstreaming or not - just like the option for WASAPI Exclusive - would be nice to have too.

Regarding your five devices, what do you have MC volume set to? For me responding to Windows system volume depends on which volume I am using in MC. In particular, Application volume works with Direct Sound but not with WASAPI.  That was the difference I found. At this point I cannot tell if the difference is from MC or from the driver.

I have JRiver's volume control disabled because I use my DAC's own volume control.
But it doesn't matter whether the volume control is set to "system" or anything else.
The actual system's control is not the same thing as JRiver's "system" control.
JRiver will disable its own "system" control when bitstreaming, but you can still adjust the actual system control in Windows.

Application volume should work with WASAPI but not WASAPI Exclusive, since exclusive bypasses the mixer.

[glynor]

Nothing except JRiver and the DAC know that the 176.4kHz PCM signal being played is a DoP signal.

The driver certainly could know, the same way the DAC itself knows, but it doesn't. Because lazy programming.

[RD James]

The driver certainly could know, the same way the DAC itself knows, but it doesn't. Because lazy programming.

I'm not sure that it would be a good idea to have the driver "inspect" all the audio being played through it to detect this.
Whether it could be done or not, it is not done - by any driver.
There are some basic steps that JRiver could implement to try and make DoP playback as bulletproof as possible, and I see no drawbacks to them.

[glynor]

I'm not sure that it would be a good idea to have the driver "inspect" all the audio being played through it to detect this.

Why not? It has the audio data in a buffer anyway. All it has to do is look for the same "marker" the DAC's processing chip looks for, and it can do so without altering the audio path in any way. You know that computers can read data without altering it, right?

Sounds like you believe there is sorcery going on in there. It is a data structure like any other on the computer.

Relying on users to keep volume at 100% (and knowing when they can change it and when they cannot) is absurd, and obviously prone to failure.

[RD James]

Why not? It has the audio data in a buffer anyway. All it has to do is look for the same "marker" the DAC's processing chip looks for, and it can do so without altering the audio path in any way. You know that computers can read data without altering it, right?
Sounds like you believe there is sorcery going on in there. It is a data structure like any other on the computer.

Not saying it can't be done, just seemed like it would be adding unnecessary overhead to the driver.

Relying on users to keep volume at 100% (and knowing when they can change it and when they cannot) is absurd, and obviously prone to failure.

You're not wrong, but the DoP format is a hack so it's not surprising?
We're not talking about a single device here, it's the nature of the format.
Some devices don't let you adjust the volume with exclusive-mode outputs, but that's a general thing for those devices, unrelated to DoP playback.

If JRiver sets the volume to 100% for DoP playback or when bitstreaming is enabled, it fixes the problem.
The option already exists for WASAPI, it just needs to be forced on with DoP playback/bitstreaming.
It's probably not a lot of work to add the same options to ASIO.

Then you won't have people wondering why DSD playback isn't working.