Topic: Prefer HD or SD (Read 11235 times)

RoderickGI · « **on:** March 08, 2016, 04:56:40 pm »

Quote from: imeric on March 08, 2016, 12:20:07 pm

Not sure I understand the need for this one as a user could just select the specific (HD or SD) channel for that subscription...Unless I'm missing something...

Some people still prefer to record in SD for certain programs, as it saves disk space and they don't need HD for some program types, like old 4:3 sitcoms.

In Australia we have several broadcasters that broadcast basically the same content in SD and HD in two separate channels, but it isn't that simple, as the programs don't always match. There are always exceptions. Anyway, it is pretty common for these broadcasters to show, for example, the pilot of a new series in HD, and then switch to SD for the following episodes. Or they may just switch part way through a season for no apparent reason, and without announcing it. While I could, for example, just specify the two channels involved in the Recording Rules, I don't actually want to record both, and I do want to be able to specify my format preference. After all, if the program is being shown on both channels simultaneously, one in SD and one in HD, which one should MC record? But if I prefer HD, and a schedule change means that the HD version isn't broadcast for one particular episode, I want MC to record the SD instead.

A specific example is the MotoGP, which is broadcast on channel 1 in HD for every race, except the Australian race, when it is broadcast on channel 10 in SD. Why they do that is a mystery really, except that there is a law in Australia that says the broadcaster's main channel must be SD, so that "everyone" with a TV can view it. HD channels and the content delivered is up to the broadcaster. As the broadcaster wants the maximum number of viewers for the local MotoGP race, they broadcast on their main channel, which is channel 10 in SD. Lots of people are trying to change that silly law now, as it was written for the changeover from analogue to digital TV, and the early days of digital TV here were all SD.

So now I can select Channels 1 and 10 in the recording rule, select a preference for HD, still only get one recording, and not miss any program when the broadcasters muck around with the schedule.

Our broadcasters pretty much don't care about viewers at all, except as numbers of people glued to the TV. They hate PVRs, and commercial skipping capabilities. They change their schedule around on a whim. Miss episodes in a series and don't catch up later. Broadcast last years season, alongside a season from five years ago, etc. etc. So the more rules I have to weed out the rubbish, the better.

imeric · « **Reply #1 on:** March 08, 2016, 05:56:31 pm »

Mmm... Interesting reading RoderickGI thx for sharing!

I guess this feature basically favors one channel over another (meeting the exact same criteria) for a show...If it's the case I definitely see a lot of potential with this feature!
As an example if the same show is presented on both Over-the air vs the STB (Satellite with the Colossus) and I can choose between the 2...I would definitely favor ATSC OTA and leave the STB alone for both better quality and ability to record other shows on it (specialised sports channels)...This would be great.

Hopefully (for me..) this is what the feature is all about

RoderickGI · « **Reply #2 on:** March 08, 2016, 06:33:34 pm »

It should work if you can differentiate by HD vs SD.

We have two HD standards at the moment, 1440x1080i and 1280x720p, then we have SD at 720x576i. So this rule can't differentiate between the 1080i and the 720p, but it is good enough.

I don't know what definition Yaobing used for HD vs SD, but I assume it is similar to above.

imugli · « **Reply #3 on:** March 08, 2016, 06:44:35 pm »

Quote from: RoderickGI on March 08, 2016, 04:56:40 pm

A specific example is the MotoGP, which is broadcast on channel 1 in HD for every race, except the Australian race, when it is broadcast on channel 10 in SD. Why they do that is a mystery really, except that there is a law in Australia that says the broadcaster's main channel must be SD, so that "everyone" with a TV can view it. HD channels and the content delivered is up to the broadcaster. As the broadcaster wants the maximum number of viewers for the local MotoGP race, they broadcast on their main channel, which is channel 10 in SD. Lots of people are trying to change that silly law now, as it was written for the changeover from analogue to digital TV, and the early days of digital TV here were all SD.

So now I can select Channels 1 and 10 in the recording rule, select a preference for HD, still only get one recording, and not miss any program when the broadcasters muck around with the schedule.

Our broadcasters pretty much don't care about viewers at all, except as numbers of people glued to the TV. They hate PVRs, and commercial skipping capabilities. They change their schedule around on a whim. Miss episodes in a series and don't catch up later. Broadcast last years season, alongside a season from five years ago, etc. etc. So the more rules I have to weed out the rubbish, the better.

Not any more... I'm sure you know that 1 has been transitioned to SD and Ten now simulcasts their main channel in HD - sports included - on Channel 13 :-) I was watching V8 supercars over the weekend and it looked great!

Yaobing · « **Reply #4 on:** March 08, 2016, 07:06:33 pm »

The new "Prefer HD" or "Prefer SD" rule works like this:

1. HD status as indicated by EPG data is saved in each program's Keyword field.
2. The data is fairly reliable, but is not perfect. Therefore, the rule should never be interpreted as "HD only" or "SD only" as there are many HD programs that do not get the "HD" label.
3. It never messes with your time frame specification. If for example, you specify "one per day near 8 pm", and "prefer HD", and there is a program airing at 10 pm that is HD, but the 8 pm show is not marked as HD, then the 8 pm show still trumps the 10 pm show because it is closer to your specified time. In general we will never drop an earlier showing in favor of a later showing (except that we do choose one airing that is closest to your anchor time). The quality preference kicks in only when two or more channels simultaneously air the same show at exactly the same time and your channel specification is "All channels" (or multiple selected channels).

RoderickGI · « **Reply #5 on:** March 08, 2016, 07:59:32 pm »

Quote from: imugli on March 08, 2016, 06:44:35 pm

Not any more... I'm sure you know that 1 has been transitioned to SD and Ten now simulcasts their main channel in HD - sports included - on Channel 13 :-) I was watching V8 supercars over the weekend and it looked great!

Oh man. I didn't know that yet, although I knew they were talking about it some time back. Now I am going to have to rescan my channels to pick up 13, and to get sound back on 1, as it is currently silent, since the audio format is no longer what MC thought it was. Those changes are going to muck up my EPG. Oh well, at least it is an improvement I guess. I need to do a channel scan to update Channel 76 anyway...

I don't watch enough live TV, or channel 1/10/11/12/13 to have picked it up earlier. Their announcement says there have been recent changes in legislation, so I guess the laws I was talking about have now changed. Although they didn't need to change the law to start simulcasting channel 10 on 13, since 10 is their primary channel, and it is still SD. They appear to be lying about that in their FAQ about the change.

Oh, and good grief. From their FAQ:
"Will the sport seen in HD on ONE in the past now switch to TEN HD?
No.

The premium sport on TEN will now be seen in crystal clear HD, including live Formula One races, live V8 Supercars races and highlights programs, the KFC Big Bash League, Rugby Union, RPM and Netball.

ONE will continue to bring great sport to viewers, including MotoGP, the Women’s Big Bash League, Super Rugby replays and Formula One highlights programs. "

So MotoGP, the only sport I really watch, which used to be in HD except for the Australian race, is now going to be in SD for all races. Well done channel TEN.

?

Yaobing, thanks for sharing the rules around the new functionality.

imeric · « **Reply #6 on:** March 09, 2016, 01:35:38 pm »

So back to my earlier question then... Or why would someone prefer an SD show over HD if the 2 are available....
If for space, you're better off transcoding the show than recording it in SD, much more efficient.
Or...Have the ability to use more than one hard drives for recordings..That would be handy!

Yaobing · « **Reply #7 on:** March 09, 2016, 02:32:51 pm »

Quote from: CountryBumkin on March 09, 2016, 02:21:45 pm

I think the way it works, is as you surmised above.

So, for example, if I have a couple of different channels showing the same program and one channel is SD (say channel 24-1 on Monday at 7PM) and the other is HD (say channel 24-3 on Monday at 11PM), I can have MC record the HD program (even if the SD program is aired first). Without this feature, MC would just record the first airing and then skip the others.

Yes?

No. Quality preference is in force only if the two airings are at the same time.

RoderickGI · « **Reply #8 on:** March 09, 2016, 07:47:14 pm »

Quote from: Yaobing on March 08, 2016, 07:06:33 pm

The new "Prefer HD" or "Prefer SD" rule works like this:

1. HD status as indicated by EPG data is saved in each program's Keyword field.
2. The data is fairly reliable, but is not perfect. Therefore, the rule should never be interpreted as "HD only" or "SD only" as there are many HD programs that do not get the "HD" label.
3. It never messes with your time frame specification. If for example, you specify "one per day near 8 pm", and "prefer HD", and there is a program airing at 10 pm that is HD, but the 8 pm show is not marked as HD, then the 8 pm show still trumps the 10 pm show because it is closer to your specified time. In general we will never drop an earlier showing in favor of a later showing (except that we do choose one airing that is closest to your anchor time). The quality preference kicks in only when two or more channels simultaneously air the same show at exactly the same time and your channel specification is "All channels" (or multiple selected channels).

Unfortunately I have found that only programs for two of my HD Channels get flagged in my EPG data with the field <quality>HDTV</quality>. None of the programs on my other HD Channels get that flag.

In my case, any channel that is HD is always HD, even if the source material isn't HD. They just up-convert it to the format they broadcast. Not ideal in terms of using this new rule, but really not a problem, because only old TV shows would be recorded in SD and up-converted. I am highly unlikely to apply this rule to those programs, or even to record them! Channels that are SD are also always SD.

I would like to have the ability to flag a Channel as HD or SD, and have this rule respect that flag for all programs on the channel. It would make sense to flag the channel in "Manage Channels". If the channel wasn't flagged as HD or SD, then the rule could fall back to the program flag.

Could this be done?

The requirement that "All Channels" be selected in the Recording Rule is going to cause me issues as well. Most of the time, well nearly always, I would use this HD rule on two or more channels from the one broadcaster. I now have three broadcasters that simulcast HD and SD on two channels at least some of he time. Also, I often need to search on a word that may appear in many programs, particularly if I have to search the description. I would like to avoid as many false positives with my recording rules as possible. Having to select "All Channels" to enable this rule will result in lots more false positives based on the other recording rules, and therefore unwanted programs being recorded.

Couldn't this rule apply whenever there are two or more channels selected in a recording rule? I could then select the SD and HD channels in the recording rules (and sometimes a third channel when the broadcaster is likely to move programs unexpectedly), and use this rule to select the HD version when the program is simulcast.

Thanks for considering these requests.

Yaobing · « **Reply #9 on:** March 09, 2016, 08:35:06 pm »

I misspoke about All channels, and shortly later modified my statement as "All channels or multiple channels".

RoderickGI · « **Reply #10 on:** March 09, 2016, 09:10:42 pm »

Ah. I missed that change. Thanks Yaobing.

imeric · « **Reply #11 on:** March 10, 2016, 09:07:12 am »

Instead of limiting it to the Video quality preference why not add or replace it with a preferred channel? Then it would be possible for us to favor a channel over another when a show is presented on 2 channels at the exact same time and meeting the subscription rule...

This would work for the HD vs SD (as they are always on 2 different VIRTUAL channels right? whether you're in Australia or Canada or US...)
AND it would definitely work for me to favor an OTA channel vs the STB for shows, sports events etc...This would be great and IMHO kill 2 birds with one stone!

imeric · « **Reply #12 on:** March 10, 2016, 09:09:42 am »

AND you remove the dependency on the EPG quality.
And I know 99% of the time on which channels the show might be presented...

Yaobing · « **Reply #13 on:** March 10, 2016, 10:12:26 am »

Quote from: imeric on March 10, 2016, 09:07:12 am

Instead of limiting it to the Video quality preference why not add or replace it with a preferred channel? Then it would be possible for us to favor a channel over another when a show is presented on 2 channels at the exact same time and meeting the subscription rule...

This would work for the HD vs SD (as they are always on 2 different VIRTUAL channels right? whether you're in Australia or Canada or US...)
AND it would definitely work for me to favor an OTA channel vs the STB for shows, sports events etc...This would be great and IMHO kill 2 birds with one stone!

Channel preference is applied automatically, this way:

If you do not specify SD or HD, or the specification does not resolve the ordering (e.g. both programs are not marked as HD), then channels are ordered according to - Favorite channel status, and then according to the custom channel ordering.

Therefore, RoderickGI, if you have a channel that is always HD and another channel that is always SD, you can simply make sure you put these channels in correct order (or put one of them in Favorite channels).

RoderickGI · « **Reply #14 on:** March 10, 2016, 02:39:30 pm »

Quote from: Yaobing on March 10, 2016, 10:12:26 am

Therefore, RoderickGI, if you have a channel that is always HD and another channel that is always SD, you can simply make sure you put these channels in correct order (or put one of them in Favorite channels).

Ah yes, I could use that. My favourite channels are a mix of HD and SD at the moment, but I don't really use the Favourite Channels view much, so I could just put only HD channels in the Favourites list.

Unfortunately I don't think I can change the sequence of the channels I use in the main Guide, because the SD and HD channels are so mixed up, it would effect the WAF too much to put all the HD channels at the top. But that is worth some thought as well.

Thanks again Yaobing.

Yaobing · « **Reply #15 on:** March 10, 2016, 04:10:03 pm »

You don't have to re-order all channels. You just need to make sure the relative positions are correct for the channels that are most likely carry the same programs.

imeric · « **Reply #16 on:** April 28, 2016, 07:56:25 pm »

Hi,
Again to my point of preferring a channel over another instead of Prefer HD or SD here is a living proof as to why I think it would be a better approach. I created a subscription with NHL Hockey to record all playoff games and from time to time the same game will be on 2 different channels.

As per the snapshot below, I will end up with MC recording the same game on 2 different channels despite having the exact same name and description, therefore eating up HD space and take up 2 capture cards.

Wouldn't specifying a Preferred channel make more sense instead of HD over SD? By specifying a channel you do give the user the ability to chose between HD or SD + Give others the flexibility to choose between 2 channels showing the exact same event having the same name and/or description (look at the 2 last rows in my snapshot showing what I mean)

Thx!

Yaobing · « **Reply #17 on:** April 28, 2016, 09:11:50 pm »

Are you referring to Pittsburgh Penguins at Washington Capitals game to be aired on Saturday?

Is tonight's game the same game as Saturday's game? Probably not, as I seen different descriptions. Assuming tonight's game is a different game, then yes, you may end up recording the show on Saturday on both channel 5-1 and channel 6-1. I plan to resolve such duplicates at recording time, so we will be less likely to pick the wrong one. Also, being able to order the channels in subscription setup is a good idea, but that will not help if a user simply choose "All channels".

imeric · « **Reply #18 on:** April 29, 2016, 07:35:43 am »

I'm talking about the last 2 rows ONLY. Other recordings are OK.

I need both 5.1 and 6.1 Selected in the channel list as they can show different games simultaneously. I don't select "All Channels' as I don't want the STB to record any games and only those 2 OTA channels.

In this particular case yes I would favor 6.1 over 5.1 for hockey games but there's other cases where I would want 5.1 over 6.1 (or else) to record a particular show.

In other words for Hockey I want a canadian feed and for shows I want the original american feed and not the canadian rebroadcast.
(And please no comments about No canadian teams making it in the playoffs this year

)

Quote from: Yaobing on April 28, 2016, 09:11:50 pm

being able to order the channels in subscription setup is a good idea, but that will not help if a user simply choose "All channels".

As per my point above, this will not provide the ability to favor one channel over others on a subscription basis

Thx!

imeric · « **Reply #19 on:** April 29, 2016, 07:41:28 am »

Re-reading quickly all the posts above where some channels may or may not get HD tags and people wanting the ability to tag channels as HD or SD to make this feature work.

Quote from: RoderickGI on March 09, 2016, 07:47:14 pm

In my case, any channel that is HD is always HD, even if the source material isn't HD.

Why not just give us the ability to select a favorite channel for a show instead? As per RoderickGI's post a channel will either be SD or HD anyway...
I would just rework that feature instead.
Thx!

Yaobing · « **Reply #20 on:** April 29, 2016, 08:50:57 am »

As I mentioned in my previous post, I am going to tackle the problem of multiple channels airing the same show simultaneously. I believe this is the only reason for your duplicate recordings. I could have filtered out multiple channels and leave only one channel for recording, but I did not do it because I did not want to pick one channel but only to find out that the particular channel failed to record. I need to keep the second channel ready to record. I will work on it. Promise

.

imeric · « **Reply #21 on:** April 29, 2016, 09:28:57 am »

Ok but how will we able to choose between one channel over another on a case-by-case basis?

No matter how you decide to implement it as long as I have that flexibility that's all that matters really...

Thx Yaobing!!

imeric · « **Reply #22 on:** April 29, 2016, 09:41:00 am »

Quote from: Yaobing on April 29, 2016, 08:50:57 am

As I mentioned in my previous post, I am going to tackle the problem of multiple channels airing the same show simultaneously. I believe this is the only reason for your duplicate recordings. I could have filtered out multiple channels and leave only one channel for recording, but I did not do it because I did not want to pick one channel but only to find out that the particular channel failed to record. I need to keep the second channel ready to record. I will work on it. Promise .

I agree. Until we get the flexibility to choose which channel we want I prefer to see 2 recordings vs none or the wrong channel.

tx

Yaobing · « **Reply #23 on:** April 29, 2016, 01:52:57 pm »

Quote from: imeric on April 29, 2016, 09:28:57 am

Ok but how will we able to choose between one channel over another on a case-by-case basis?

I mentioned that I should allow picking channel orders during subscription setup.

Yaobing · « **Reply #24 on:** April 29, 2016, 02:03:35 pm »

One thing that I still do not have an answer and probably will never have. It will require user's diligence in checking programming changes. The issue mostly affect people who use "All channels" as a subscription option.

Here is the scenario:

Suppose I subscribe to NBA Basketball: Chicago Bulls. NBA TV often carries the games. Some local channels also carry some games.

The problem occurs when a local channel buys exclusive rights. NBA TV still has the game on the schedule, and worse, they do not even air a replacement show. All they do is to put a static message on screen that says "Due to licensing issues, this show is blocked from your local market".

If we decide to record only on one channel, and if we choose incorrectly, we end up recording not the game, but only the static message "Due to licensing issues..." for two and half hours.

imeric · « **Reply #25 on:** April 29, 2016, 04:42:54 pm »

Quote from: Yaobing on April 29, 2016, 01:52:57 pm

I mentioned that I should allow picking channel orders during subscription setup.

This would be excellent. I mixed up original configuration with subscription...

To your NBA example maybe you could allow for more than one channel as a favorite In the subscription setup. This way both programs would record which also ensures we get the game no matter what...

Just a thought.

RoderickGI · « **Reply #26 on:** April 29, 2016, 06:37:01 pm »

Quote from: Yaobing on April 29, 2016, 02:03:35 pm

If we decide to record only on one channel, and if we choose incorrectly, we end up recording not the game, but only the static message "Due to licensing issues..." for two and half hours.

It sounds like the only things you could do there are record both channels, which means change nothing in the software because that's what it does now. Or you could record one channel, based on a new user defined channel preference or perhaps a sequence of preferred channels in the recording rule, and recording the game not the licence message is a user issue and responsibility. They need to know the licencing issues and give preference to the channel that has the licence.

By the time MC can actually watch and record the initial part of both channels, and decide which channel has the correct program on it, based on actual video, I think the world will be a totally different place, where machine intelligence is commonplace, and watching TV according to a broadcaster's schedule will be a thing of the far past. Although in the shorter term I guess MC could determine which channel had only a static image on it, and chose to record the other channel. But that is a very specific case, and probably a lot of programing!

imeric · « **Reply #27 on:** August 30, 2016, 07:06:46 pm »

Reviving this Topic...Trying to subscribe to Jays Games but I have about 5 channels showing them therefore leading to conflicts... Trying to favour one channel over the others but it is not working...Has there been any developments on this?

Again IMHO favoring channels versus the "new" HD to SD feature would have been a lot more useful...

On a positive note I've been running 21.0.90 for quite some time and it's been awesome and very stable! Was reluctant to upgrade to 22 (based on past upgrade experiences) and wanted to wait as long as possible but wow!! This went very smoothly with no hiccups and AV issues!!! Hats off!!! Or maybe waiting a few weeks was the right thing to do

...I'm currently on 22.0.21

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Author Topic: Prefer HD or SD (Read 11235 times)