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[Efjay]

With the announcement of MC22, I've been giving this some thought. I've been a long-time user of MC and have upgraded as each new version has been released. Throughout that time, I have only used MC for its audio functions, both for organization and for playback.

It seems clear that, at this point, most of the development is now geared toward video capabilities. In the "New Features thread", it lists the following:

Theater View on Mac and Linux
Remote Control on Mac and Linux
Some parts of Television on Mac and Linux (probably limited by hardware support)
Improved access to metadata
Upload files to Amazon or Google
Metadata retrieval in the appropriate language when possible.

Very little of that will have any effect on how MC does audio. Similarly, when any mention is made of of how other programs supposedly deal with sound quality, a typical (in its essence, if not its actual wording) response is:

These "solutions" are all smoking their sox.  They're selling air.  The emperor has no clothes.

Fair enough. But if that's the case, what can MC do for audio in subsequent iterations for audio that it doesn't do now? JRiver has been opposed to offering, for instance, different upsampling algorithms.  (I don't know enough about the topic so I offer no opinion other than to offer it as an example.)

Now, if asked, I'm not certain what additional features I'd like to see in MC regarding its audio functions. JRemote development has ended and while ancillary to how MC handles audio, the ability to control and access your music is clearly part and parcel of music enjoyment. But in terms of how audio is itself handled by MC, it seems that we are at the end-point.

Is this so?

[mattkhan]

There are some dsp features that could be added/improved. It probably isn't a massive list though. I wouldn't see this as a bad thing though, more that the product you have has a rich feature set!

[MusicBringer]

With the announcement of MC22, I've been giving this some thought. I've been a long-time user of MC and have upgraded as each new version has been released. Throughout that time, I have only used MC for its audio functions, both for organization and for playback.

...It seems clear that, at this point, most of the development is now geared toward video capabilities.
...In terms of how audio is itself handled by MC, it seems that we are at the end-point.

Is this so?

Good question Efjay.

Sad to say, I fear that you and I are in the minority here and we are at the end-point of how MC does audio.

[JimH]

Oddly, the video people think we're neglecting them in order to work on audio.

We've done a lot of work on things that are audio related.  Running on more than one OS, for example.  Running on low power hardware.  All kinds of DLNA improvements.  High Res formats.  Etc.

You may not find any of it useful now, but some day you may find you have a new need, and that we've done the work.

On the other hand, if you're happy with what you have, you don't need to upgrade.

[JimH]

... what can MC do for audio in subsequent iterations for audio that it doesn't do now?

While we could probably offer more effects and other DSP options, it is not possible to improve on perfect quality.  We can deliver the source content unmodified.  You can't do anything more authentic and genuine than that.  You could change it, but that isn't "improved" audio.  It's just different.

JRiver has been opposed to offering, for instance, different upsampling algorithms.  (I don't know enough about the topic so I offer no opinion other than to offer it as an example.)

Now, if asked, I'm not certain what additional features I'd like to see in MC regarding its audio functions. JRemote development has ended ...

We've never been opposed to upsampling.  We offer a lot of upsampling.

JRemote development hasn't ended.

[rudyrednose]

Oddly, the video people think we're neglecting them in order to work on audio.

Human nature 

Seems to me there is still a lot of room for improvements in the multi-zone synchronous operation (whole house distribution).
Recent developments on cheap Linux devices like the Raspberry Pi are also beneficial to audio-only users.

Thing is, without being a fanboy, I see my yearly contribution to the new version as a subscription to a great media solution.

The licensing is generous (allowed to install on all my personal machines, within reason), but should not be abused.  To keep that development team, there is a need for income every year.  I see my yearly $23 contribution as fairly cheap for what I get.

Cheers.

[RD James]

I don't know that there's much to be done for audio quality.
It's things surrounding audio playback that could be enhanced.
 
Something like being able to load the playlist into memory wouldn't affect quality, but it improves the playback experience to avoid skipping or pauses/delays.

I'd really like to see mixing separated from output format and have the DSP ordering unlocked.
There are VST plug-ins that I'd like to use which require that they are applied before volume leveling, adaptive volume, resampling, or dowmixing is done.

[dtc]

MC has pretty much everything I need currently for audio, although there is room for improvement. There was nothing in 21 that helped and I do not see 22 as adding anything for me, at least at this point.

JRiver has been a leader in DSD playback. But, and I know I sound like a broken record, there are still a few places for improvement in both playback and in conversion.

IMO, memory playback worked better before the change from decompressing before rather than after loading into memory. Being able to delicate a large amount of memory and load more than one track at a time would be a welcome improvement. If I could set aside, say, 2 GB and load an entire album or a significant part of a playlist that would be a nice upgrade.

JRemote may not be dead, but it is certainly not getting much attention. For example, JRemote and Gizmo playback of local files on phones/tablet has been discussed multiple times as has caching in JRemote.

The comment above on upsampling was, I believe, in regard to requests for adding additional upsampling algorithms, not that MC does not do it.

MQA is on the horizon. Certainly its future is not assured, but if it becomes at all popular it should be considered for integration.

MC is a great audio system. Video clearly needs more work than audio at this time. Few will ever be totally happy, but let's hope the audio improvements continue at a reasonable rate.

[Vocalpoint]

JRemote may not be dead, but it is certainly not getting much attention. For example, JRemote and Gizmo playback of local files on phones/tablet has been discussed multiple times as has caching in JRemote.

Agreed. This is my wishful thinking area.

VP

[kstuart]

quote: "IMO, memory playback worked better before the change from decompressing before rather than after loading into memory. Being able to delicate a large amount of memory and load more than one track at a time would be a welcome improvement. If I could set aside, say, 2 GB and load an entire album or a significant part of a playlist that would be a nice upgrade."

Those requests were mentioned by some people when post-decompression memory playback was first introduced, and might be a good choice for additional audio-power-user features for MC22.

BTW, it's worth noting that JRiver has always added playback of any requested file formats, so no worries there.

[amsco15]

Big vote for improving JRemote.  Seems like a small item: it used to work.  Would love to be able view Assets in landscape orientation on my iPhone 6S. 

[High-End]

is improving audio just the output or also the organisation?
I am an audio only user and I listen a lot to classical music. organisation classical audio is a nightmare within MC in combination with a android remote.
Keyword is genre specific tags for the remote
perhaps this is a issue you can work on to support your audio customers....

[JimH]

Split Yet Another Format?

[devhead]

I have to say, I'm in the same boat as the audio folks; although I do use JRiver for video playback, I can't imagine any features in the next version pushing me to upgrade to it.  MC21 is such a superb product, and I've been upgrading since MC19. 

[michael123]

and I don't use video capabilities

Only for Audio playback

Apart from handling settings for DSD higher-resolution streams (which already was mentioned in few threads), I would like to see some serious competition to Roon.

Audiophile community in masses switch to Roon, Tidal, ..

[craigmcg]

I keep upgrading because I want to ensure that the JRiver team is around to add the next big audio/video thing. I started out using MC for only audio but now it is the media centre in the house. It already has many functions and capabilities that I don't use but many others do; $2 bucks a month is dirt cheap for the number of hours that I use MC.

[JimH]

and I don't use video capabilities

Only for Audio playback

Apart from handling settings for DSD higher-resolution streams (which already was mentioned in few threads), I would like to see some serious competition to Roon.

Audiophile community in masses switch to Roon, Tidal, ..

My guess is that Roon wishes they were serious competition for JRiver.  We're doing fine.

I don't expect Tidal to last.  Eventually all businesses need to reach profitability or be sold.  Neither seems likely.

You might find this worth reading:  Why Streaming Struggles.

If you have things you like about Roon, please suggest them.  We're making our list for MC22.

[michael123]

(1) Managing the library as the hyperlinks (similar to Tidal) and enriching it from the web (allmusic, wiki, etc.) - are great features.

I have around 90,000 files in my library, and I still need to navigate either via browsing the whole directory on the left, or doing search..
The problem is that I don't remember what to search for.
Creating playlists does not work for me, it is about changing my habits rather than having an application adapting for my needs.

(2) Something seen on Allmusic I think, similar to Amazon,  and others - if you like this, check that one out, you will probably like it too. -- but based on my library

I have different moods, sometimes I like classic rock, sometimes I need soft blues. Having the suggestion engine will definitely help me to listen and re-discover existing catalog


P.S. PCM vs. DSD downsampling/conversion setup dialogs re-design

[MarkCoutinho]

For me MC 22 is absolutely no necessity to buy, as I'm an audio user only too.
I've been upgrading every time since MC 4 (or so).
However: I WILL upgrade, if only to support JRiver to keep on doing their great work AND because I use the program something like 6 hours every day.

[CountryBumkin]

(1) Managing the library as the hyperlinks (similar to Tidal) and enriching it from the web (allmusic, wiki, etc.) - are great features.

I have around 90,000 files in my library, and I still need to navigate either via browsing the whole directory on the left, or doing search..
The problem is that I don't remember what to search for.
Creating playlists does not work for me, it is about changing my habits rather than having an application adapting for my needs.

(2) Something seen on Allmusic I think, similar to Amazon,  and others - if you like this, check that one out, you will probably like it too. -- but based on my library

I have different moods, sometimes I like classic rock, sometimes I need soft blues. Having the suggestion engine will definitely help me to listen and re-discover existing catalog


P.S. PCM vs. DSD downsampling/conversion setup dialogs re-design

If your only interested in playing from your current library, couldn't you just create a new random-sorted playlist based on genres (Blues, Rock, whatever genre you like) plus the desired rating (like only 4 star and above)?  What is Allmusic and Amazon doing differently?

[Vocalpoint]

Creating playlists does not work for me, it is about changing my habits rather than having an application adapting for my needs.

I use AllMusic as a guide to highlight the tracks that they have reviewed as "key" cuts. And then it's as easy as making a Smartlist in MC - based on genre (Classic Rock, Soft Blues etc) to take care of my "mood".

MC can do all of this but you have to put the work into the meta data if you expect it to server up something usable for your mood.

VP

[michael123]

If your only interested in playing from your current library, couldn't you just create a new random-sorted playlist based on genres (Blues, Rock, whatever genre you like) plus the desired rating (like only 4 star and above)?  What is Allmusic and Amazon doing differently?

Recommendation engine. Do you think it is based on random function?

[michael123]

I use AllMusic as a guide to highlight the tracks that they have reviewed as "key" cuts. And then it's as easy as making a Smartlist in MC - based on genre (Classic Rock, Soft Blues etc) to take care of my "mood".

MC can do all of this but you have to put the work into the meta data if you expect it to server up something usable for your mood.

VP

That's what I wrote in my first bullet
 - that the meta data in MC can be enriched from the web (based on the data I already provided)

+ the Allmusic thing (or similar) I would like to be processed in the background all the time.

[michael123]

guys,
you asked - I wrote.

I know many, many audiophiles (being one myself) - Tidal, Roon - is the best thing for them.
Because of the user experience, mainly.

MC + JRemote was the golden standard for audiophile for few years, but it might not be very soon.

Maybe it is possible to make MC a RoonReady player, like HQPlayer (sorry for comparison)?

[Vocalpoint]

That the meta data in MC can be enriched from the web (based on the data I already provided)

My understanding is that pretty much all "metadata" providers come with some sort of cost for usage - not certain about AllMusic (or even if they offer an API to actually "get" usable metadata) - but if they do - I will bet they do not allow apps to grab all their metadata for free (happy to be wrong tho).

This is - I believe - the reason Gracenote is not in MC - due to usage costs?

If adding that kind of access results in a higher price for MC - then no thanks. If full AllMusic meta access could be added at zero cost - then I am all in. But I wouldn't be keen on paying significantly more for MC just to have access to All Music.

VP

[Vocalpoint]

Recommendation engine.

I do not understand this. Where on All Music (Amazon?) is there a recommendation engine?

Since MC can only act upon material you already have..and if you already own a specific album - why would you need MC to recommend it?

Are you saying you want a mechanism in MC to "suggest" that I play Sticky Fingers by the Stones if I am in a blues rock mood this Wednesday?

VP

[michael123]

I do not understand this. Where on All Music (Amazon?) is there a recommendation engine?

Since MC can only act upon material you already have..and if you already own a specific album - why would you need MC to recommend it?

Are you saying you want a mechanism in MC to "suggest" that I play Sticky Fingers by the Stones if I am in a blues rock mood this Wednesday?

VP

In Amazon you have links to the products, which are based on what other customers viewed and bought.
In AllMusic there is a tab for recommended/similar albums

I need MC to recommend the album for playback - to combine external meta data, external viewers preferences, critics reviews from AllMusic

This is a feature needed for large libraries

[wig]

I use JRiver almost exclusively for audio. For me the power of the software is the smartlists; I can make very simple or complex smartlists, and then adapt them to my listening tastes over time.

But I wonder how many people take full advantage of smartlists? Some of the most powerful smartlist features, like ~mix, are buried in the panel and require a bit of digging to use. I'd personally love to see the smartlist creation panel get an overhaul, to make it easier for both novices and power users. 

[MusicBringer]

I'd personally love to see the smartlist creation panel get an overhaul, to make it easier for both novices and power users. 

Wouldn't that be just so wonderful - if it ever happens.

[Vocalpoint]

I need MC to recommend the album for playback - to combine external meta data, external viewers preferences, critics reviews from AllMusic

Again - that (if it's even possible) would be some sort of integration/API angle with AllMusic. Only J.river dev could know if that is an option.

This is a feature needed for large libraries

I have a massive library (100000+ tracks) as well - but do not see this a critical "need". "Nice to have" sure...

There are many things (UI for certain) that needs an overhaul well before looking at this - unless it's super easy to deliver?

VP

[Ultraviolet]

This is a very pertinent post for me as well as I'm also in the audio only camp.  There are two major audio related inconveniences for me:
-JRemote--pretty much everything about it--too big a topic for this post.
-Music Discovery.  I have a very large library and have been a MusicCabinet user for years.  It was the single greatest piece of music discovery software I've ever encountered.  It took Subsonic and advanced it lightyears.  Sadly, this was a the work of a single developer who is long gone, but I am clinging to it for one awesome feature: The ability to create a "top tracks" playlist via LastFM integration.  It is an awesome way to "discover" an artist in your collection that you wish to explore, but don't know where to start.  This LastFM integration allows for other key features as well: Recommended artists (based on your listening history), related artists, missing albums from your collection for a given artist.  You also have the option to pull an artist's bio and artwork.

I currently run both MusicCabinet and JRiver.  MC for music discovery and music playback in the car (via the DSub Android app, but there are many options).  JRiver for flac, ISO and DSD playback primarily.  It would be awesome if JRiver could utilize the LastFM API more fully.

*Edit* I believe some of the features I listed, like missing albums for a particular artist, are actually due to MusicBrainz integration.

[CountryBumkin]

JRiver has a feature called "Doctor Who" that sorta does this.
In case you don't know - JRiver Users upload their playlists (favorite Blues, Rock, Classical, etc.) to Doctor Who, then others can download that playlist and MC will match it to songs you already have and provide a "short review" of those you don't have with a link to purchase.

This sounds a little like the AllMusic "recommendation feature description except the MC User is creating the "recommended list" rather then AllMusic.

I'm not a big Audio User so I don't know all the services offered, but I think you are describing a service like "Pandora" where you pick a genre (station) and then you give a "thumbs up" or "thumbs down" to each song played, so that Pandora can use "your rating of each song" to offer more songs of the type/style that you like.

[michael123]

I could not make this work, maybe the database of these playlists is very small to work..

AllMusic has the critics rating as well

[aoqw76]

Me too, an audio only user of MC since 17 (i think) and have upgraded each time, have bought MC22 already as I want to support the company and use the software nearly every day. JRiver MC has revitalised my music playback in the home and outside via jremote on my ipad connected to my library at home.

I installed Roon and uninstalled it a couple of hours later. I saw albeit briefly what it could do; how it opened up my music collection, showed me things I'd forgotten I had, and all this from my local library, forget about any tidal integration etc because I only use my own stuff, I dont subscribe to anything.

But that brief glimpse was interesting; I liked being able to see the connections between artists, and highlights on albums and so forth. But that's all meta data from somewhere, and while done very nicely, it's just an implementation of data gathered from elsewhere and layered on top of what I had.

That's where I'd like to see MC develop - I tend to use the "recent albums" view so I see what I've just bought and ripped and my collection of music goes backwards chronologically. I'd like MC to suggest an album it  knows I've never played, to almost become like a visitor flipping through my record collection, hey I remember that, and wow this album is cool! yes actually that is a great album and i'm going to play it right now, and I wonder if that band has done anything recently?

I often browse wikipedia while listening to an album to remind myself, or check out new stuff / same artist, things like that, and if MC could start to inspire me with my music collection, that would be great.

[jack wallstreet]

I see my yearly contribution to the new version as a subscription to a great media solution.

This is my view also, and then there are improvements on top.

[michael123]

Me too, an audio only user of MC since 17 (i think) and have upgraded each time, have bought MC22 already as I want to support the company and use the software nearly every day. JRiver MC has revitalised my music playback in the home and outside via jremote on my ipad connected to my library at home.

I installed Roon and uninstalled it a couple of hours later. I saw albeit briefly what it could do; how it opened up my music collection, showed me things I'd forgotten I had, and all this from my local library, forget about any tidal integration etc because I only use my own stuff, I dont subscribe to anything.

But that brief glimpse was interesting; I liked being able to see the connections between artists, and highlights on albums and so forth. But that's all meta data from somewhere, and while done very nicely, it's just an implementation of data gathered from elsewhere and layered on top of what I had.

That's where I'd like to see MC develop - I tend to use the "recent albums" view so I see what I've just bought and ripped and my collection of music goes backwards chronologically. I'd like MC to suggest an album it  knows I've never played, to almost become like a visitor flipping through my record collection, hey I remember that, and wow this album is cool! yes actually that is a great album and i'm going to play it right now, and I wonder if that band has done anything recently?

I often browse wikipedia while listening to an album to remind myself, or check out new stuff / same artist, things like that, and if MC could start to inspire me with my music collection, that would be great.

Exactly.
I tried to explain that.

Is it possible to make MC/JRiver a RoonReady player?
https://kb.roonlabs.com/Roon_partner_programs

[MusicHawk]

I am also 90% audio-only. I have upgraded MC every version since MJ 6. For years the subsequent versions got better and better for me (I think I influenced Matt to implement one little thing that is hugely important to me). But since MC 15, I've upgraded every year because I appreciate the product and want to support those who create and support it.

Because, my AUDIO tagging work is still done in MC 15.0.122. I treasure it, make sure I have it available for re-install if needed, and I'm using it right now on my AUDIO-devoted PC. It was the very next MC version that removed what I consider to be super-efficient keyboard-oriented tagging, and replaced it with (again for me) time-consuming, multi-click, clumsy "searching" even though I'm NEVER "searching" my own tags, I don't need suggestions, I just need to select the tags I long-ago created that apply to a particular track (64K tracks and growing). Back when MC15 was current it was discussed that the tag search should be in addition to the long-standing tag selection mode, but alas search-first replaced direct alpha-jump selection. I tried, but find it massively frustrating to tag in any later version, but I keep buying them (paid for MC16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, and now 22).

This is my long way of saying, there is still room for improvement in managing and tagging, and it probably applies more to Audio because so many audio libraries are large/huge, and because there are (for me) so many important ways to tag. I use about two-dozen standard and custom tags (the reason Pane tagging isn't helpful, not enough screen space, plus it's slower than keyboard tagging).

Proper one-time tagging is essential to using my music library in all the ways I desire, or that arise. (I should mention my years of programming major radio stations, where I devised a music categorizing/organizing/selection system that I still use via MC. When my High School Reunion organizer called, asking if I could provide music, it took me about 1 minute with MC and my tags to identify all the hit songs that would be suitable by year, then subset for mood and duration and a bunch of other factors. At the event, MC and my music on my laptop provided the perfect mood.)

I say 90% Audio because I also use MC for IMAGES (photos), especially now that Google has abandoned Picasa. MC allows more efficient image tagging and organizing than Picasa, though Picasa has cool features (facial rec, image editing) that MC lacks. The big room for MC improvement is tag name/format compatibility, discussed and debated over the years in this forum. It would be really nice if MC22 provides some Images mode enhancements. With Google Picasa Windows app becoming defunct, and Yahoo Flickr being a dog (and the entire company for sale), MC seems to have a big upside opportunity.

[JimH]

We already have a few other feature request threads going so I'm going to close this one now.